Antipiracy SHTF for a fisherman?


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roger_witten
November 18, 2008, 09:15 PM
This is kind of an odd question. If you've seen in the news recently it's getting dangerous to be operating in international waters.

What is a good SHTF weapon for a fishing vessel? It needs to be something suitable to engage targets out to 350m, with a good rate of fire and stopping power. My vessel is 32m long, so portability is important.

I also need to be able to discreetly stow this weapon for reasons having to do with laws in gun-unfriendly places or police.

Sidearms are easy. Easily acquired, heavy hitting things I'm at a loss for.

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caseypj
November 18, 2008, 09:21 PM
An SKS would be inexpensive and pack a punch. Since it will be near water we'd expect some deterioration, I'd rather get a cheaper firearm such as one of these for this role.

moojpg2
November 18, 2008, 09:26 PM
Anyone make a stainless semi auto in 7.62?

I would go with something cheap, sks is too light of caliber though.

Get two M44 mosins (gotta have one for the first mate :) clean out the cosmo, test fire em, grease em up real good, stow them in a gun sock in a rod locker, put a couple of battle packs in a .50 cal can. and your good to go IMHO. Bayonet comes in handy if they try to board the vessel:evil:

If ya want something really heavy hitting and have a big budget, just pick up a barret .50

Samgotit
November 18, 2008, 09:35 PM
Phalanx (not the Greek one) disgusted as a Pinocchio metal sculpture.

loose cannon
November 18, 2008, 09:58 PM
lol goalkeeper disguised as a VERY LARGE pinnochio metal sculpture.

loose cannon
November 18, 2008, 10:01 PM
32m translates to 90 + feet you have enough room for a 25mm bushmaster chaingun on the foredeck.

gives ya the same oomph of a bradley ifv.

spyder1911
November 18, 2008, 10:17 PM
You are not going to hit anything at 350m on water. A Navy friend of mine said that the M-2 .50 BMG only has an effective range of about 100 yards when they are at sea.

X-Rap
November 18, 2008, 10:24 PM
Kinda odd question for a 1st post doncha think:confused:

mbt2001
November 18, 2008, 10:50 PM
If the pirates can take over a Saudi SuziMax oil tanker, then a fishing vessel has no chance....

Jeff White
November 18, 2008, 10:55 PM
Why would they want a fishing vessel? Who would pay any kind of ransom for it? What kind of commercial fishing is done off of East Africa?

paintballdude902
November 18, 2008, 11:03 PM
a buddy of mine used to do marine electronics on yachts( untill a few weeks ago he got layed off becaus of the economy nobody is buying big boats) they had a hatteras come in i believe a 100footer it had bullet holes in it and the radar had been shot off. he talked to the owner who said they were by samolia and some pirates came for them and when they saw the guns on the boat the yacht radioed for help and announced that the pirates must say what they wanted or they would open fire well the pirates kept coming so they went and got their own guns from below deck (2 m1s and 3 m1as) they fired enough on the little boat of pirates (it was a zodiaq as i understand) that they actually sunk it but their boats radio, radar had been shot out they had a few bullet holes in the hull but nothing below the water line so they did a quick fiberglassing while at sea they came home called the coastguard then got their boat fixed



if i ever have a large boat im having a gun for each person on it alot of people dont understand that just outside the us waters we still have pirates, in the caribean and all over africa the ones id fear is the drug runners just off the coast

XD-40 Shooter
November 18, 2008, 11:25 PM
I'd go with an AR-15 5.56 or an HK MP-5.:D I'd rather go down in a blaze of lead, then be held captive by those people.

SoCalShooter
November 18, 2008, 11:29 PM
I'd go with the *loose_cannon*'s suggestion you can fit a 25mm bushmaster on there and have no issues with pirates.

catfish101
November 18, 2008, 11:29 PM
I believe I would want some firepower. These guys are armed big time.

One of my field trips I went on was on a cargo ship that went through the Suez Canal. When we were waiting to go through a message came across the wire that pirates were running around. We started patrols on the ship and saw nothing. A ship did get hit. Crew killed and the ship run aground.

I was told that ships that go through the canal have to pay in cash. There is no IOU. Maybe there are exceptions, I don't know. The ship I was on had over 1 million in American cash in the safe. I remember the Third Mate on the ship told me that all ships carry cash and allot of it and pirates weren't uncommon at all. He did say that it was very rare that a ship flying the American flag would be bothered.

Samgotit
November 18, 2008, 11:34 PM
Why would they want a fishing vessel?

Maybe it's a 105' Hatteras Convertible?

.38 Special
November 18, 2008, 11:36 PM
Somewhat hard for me to understand how the the folks on the supertankers are losing to the folks in the inflatables. Guess I just don't know enough about it.

Having said that, were I to depart on a trip, in international waters, on a large cargo vessel, I would appreciate a crew trained in the use of -- and with access to -- =/> .50 caliber machine guns. I would very much prefer not to be subject to a "hand-to-hand" type confrontation where personal weapons become important. I would want to keep the goblins off the vessel in the first place. Heavy artillery would not be excessive, IMO.

David904
November 18, 2008, 11:41 PM
These tankers and cargo ships often run with skeleton crews. As such, they may not be as vigilant as the situation warrants. Plus they aren't military - so the mindset is a bit different.

Piracy is alive and well even off US waters. I know of several incidents in which some guys fended off some folks who tried to board their fishing boats in the Gulf of Mexico.

paintballdude902
November 18, 2008, 11:42 PM
good point sam

jeff some of those hatteras go for over 1mill its a nice boat with alot more in electronics

the big sport fishing boats arent a mill but are expensive have lots of electronics and fuel not to mention 3-10 people who all have families

22-rimfire
November 18, 2008, 11:42 PM
I would probably buy something cheap and disposable. AK works but 350m is a long shot with an AK. I would actually have several rifles on board. One for closer encounters and one for longer range stuff.

.38 Special
November 18, 2008, 11:56 PM
These tankers and cargo ships often run with skeleton crews. As such, they may not be as vigilant as the situation warrants. Plus they aren't military - so the mindset is a bit different.

If they so much as scan the occasional newspaper I would think their mindset would change rather quickly and drastically. Again, though, I really don't know what I'm talking about re. high seas hijinks.

jakk280rem
November 19, 2008, 12:06 AM
Anyone make a stainless semi auto in 7.62?

yes.

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdResults?function=famid&famid=20&variation=Mini%20Thirty®%20All-Weather&bct=Yes&type=Rifle

Kinda odd question for a 1st post doncha think

yeah, but what the hey, i got nothin better to do.

BullpupBen
November 19, 2008, 12:17 AM
In the incredibly unlikely chance you are actually hit by pirates, I doubt you'll be sure its a threat until they are practically boarding you. If that is the case, you'd be best off either trying to steer away or getting to a place in your boat where they cant shoot at you. I also don't think a boat is still enough to hit anything with a non-automatic weapon from any distance. Then again i've only spent time on wooden sailboats so maybe I have no idea about that..

ANYWAY, my point is any fighting you do will likely be very close and very quick. My reccomendations would be either the smallest 12 gauge you can find (that has stock) or a compact rifle like an AK, ar-15 or pistol caliber carbine.
One of my personal favorites is the Kel-tec sub2000. It folds up so you can easily hide it from any kind of authorities, no matter how much they search your boat. its good for 100-150 yards at least, and with the carbine barrel packs a serious punch and is much faster to aim then a pistol

By the way most of the piracy you're hearing on the news is probably from Somalia, where the lawlessness of what is left of the UN-mandated (go figure) country of "Somalia" is practically in chaos, and pirates are actually strong enough to raid even large vessels carrying things like oil and military supplies. Unless your taking trips to Africa this really isnt much of a worry.

Cmdr. Gravez0r
November 19, 2008, 12:19 AM
If I had a waterborne investment worth protecting I'd go with a Mossberg Mariner or something with the same finish, loaded dutch with 00 and slugs.

On the inflatables vs tankers--tankers have biggish blind spots. Makes it easier at night or if the boat in question is close to the coast.

ericyp
November 19, 2008, 12:22 AM
Don't professional piracy boats usually have crew of men and machine guns mounted to it? I don't think anything you can legally buy here is going to be of much use.

catfish101
November 19, 2008, 12:35 AM
If they so much as scan the occasional newspaper I would think their mindset would change rather quickly and drastically. Again, though, I really don't know what I'm talking about re. high seas hijinks.

It would be prudent to have a few lookouts.

What ships I have been on the crews are very busy and spend days without seeing the water. Also pirate activity in the Med. sea, Red sea, and Persian Gulf is pretty common and very few ships get hit in relation to the total number of vessels. The shipping lanes are pretty busy places.

It is also easy for those guys to take those ships. Big ships like that don't turn fast and very slow compared to the bad guys boats.

BullpupBen
November 19, 2008, 12:35 AM
Don't professional piracy boats usually have crew of men and machine guns mounted to it? I don't think anything you can legally buy here is going to be of much use.

In Somalia where many are well-trained and diciplined that may be the case, but around Mexico/Carribean it's more gonna be guns they could buy on the black market down there.. so no .50 cals as they would be too big to sneak home. I imagine that their weapons would range from sawed off shotguns and pistols on the low end, to AK-47s and G3's for the more wealthy baddies. And I'm talking about the real thing, not the civilian versions.

Jeff White
November 19, 2008, 12:37 AM
The reports I've seen about the Somali pirates say they are armed with automatic weapons and RPGs. There are security companies that provide armed crews for merchant vessels. I would imagine that their getting a lot of business right now.

One thing for the private citizen to consider is that in many ports in the world, even a 12 gauge shotgun can get you prison time and your boat seized. In most cases all the suggestions about weapons are sort of moot, since you can't have them in port in much of the world.

RPCVYemen
November 19, 2008, 12:41 AM
Somewhat hard for me to understand how the the folks on the supertankers are losing to the folks in the inflatables. Guess I just don't know enough about it.


I think that the idea is that they have RPGs/mortars, and you're sitting on top of the world's largest Molotov cocktail going at 10 knots.

Mike

.38 Special
November 19, 2008, 01:36 AM
Aye, but I understand there's a bit 'o steel between them and the cargo.

To be perfectly honest, I suspect that it more cost effective for a large international company to take the risk and buy off the occasional pirate than to put effective security details and armament on every ship.

Horsesense
November 19, 2008, 02:21 AM
You try and hide a gun in the wrong port and get searched.... think about 10 years in a Mex akin prison.:uhoh:

That being said, get 4 auto loading 12ga, loaded with slug (speed loaders with 00, for close in work), you build a mount for them and have cams and a crank handle (perfectly legal in the us) to operate the trigger, if you have to use it in international waters just chuck on a cordless drill and you have a quad mount 12ga auto.

Ps: send me lots of money and I will build it and test it out for you.

PPS: Just get an Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr15

RPCVYemen
November 19, 2008, 10:47 AM
Aye, but I understand there's a bit 'o steel between them and the cargo.

A friend who was in the Navy providing escort to tankers told me - if I recall what he said correctly - that an RPG (or some other fairly small weapon) could potentially put a hole in the hull of a commercial vessel.

Does anyone know if that makes sense?

Mike

Shung
November 19, 2008, 11:08 AM
no doubt it would !

waterhouse
November 19, 2008, 11:10 AM
I've done a decent bit of offshore sailing, and I've had the opportunity to practice shooting from a boat deck. It is very difficult. Even on a fairly calm day boats move quite a bit.

If it were me, I'd heed the warning of making sure the guns are legal where you are
a) planning on going
b) might have to make an emergency stop

Don't think you are going to hide much from most customs officials. While there are many really great hiding places on a lot of boats, customs probably knows about them, since all they do day in and day out is check incoming boats.

After checking legalities, I'd pick a 12 gauge. Or two. In theory I'd go cheap (we used old pawn shop wingmasters covered in RIG) but if you could find one a magazine fed Saiga would be pretty decent at the task.

The best thing you can do is be alert to other vessels getting into your comfort zone.

zombienerd
November 19, 2008, 11:17 AM
As a Merchant sailor, I have a LOT of experience in this area...

If you are only going to be pulling into the exact same port repeatedly, then you may carry weapons on board that are allowed by the port you are in. Many ports will not allow weapons through the gate, which is why many Merchant vessels are being taken over without opposition. Many host countries will not let vessels dock at their ports if they have even a single weapon on board, but some will allow minor small arms, such as shotguns.

My company has recently invested in the LRAD (Long range acoustic device) which has been shown to work as a deterrant, but if a pirate really wants to get your ship, they will just come back wearing really good hearing protection and thick clothing to combat the LRAD.

Most of the pirates operating in the "hot zone" (Off somalia and india) are armed with AK47's, RPGs, and various other small arms, some boats even having 50BMG machine guns mounted.

If a pirate cannot take a vessel, they have been known to just blow it up with the RPG's, or at least blow part of it off.

I doubt you're fishing in the "hot zone" so I don't think you have *too* much to worry about, but if you want the best protection available, grab an LRAD, grab a few shotguns, and a few semiauto rifles, as well as a few pistols for your crew.

You wouldn't know that a closing vessel is a pirate until they are in small arms range anyway. Most vessels don't know a pirate is coming until they're actually along side attempting to board.

Just my .02 on the subject :)

Shung
November 19, 2008, 11:24 AM
from http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/tos/ :

PRIVATEERS!

Indeed, if some enterprising billionaire were to offer the funding to equip a mini-fleet of privateer vessels (instead of pissing it away on nonsense like Alleviating Third World Hunger—which sounds wonderful, but achieves nothing), I think I’d volunteer right quickly to crew one of them. My gout-induced lack of mobility is irrelevant on board a ship, and what I lack in seamanship and such, I will more than make up for with weapons prowess, and bloodthirstiness which would make these so-called pirates look like a bunch of Baptist Sunday-school teachers.

But, but, but, we need to understand the root causes of their piratical behavior. Afte that we must negotiate with them in good faith.

Either that or we blow their butts out of the water using the rule of engagement to “shoot first; ask questions later.” Sure, we might kill a few innocents, but in that part of the world, how many true innocents are there?

;)

Speedo66
November 19, 2008, 11:27 AM
Ship's crews also do piracy drills with fire hoses. They either try to swamp the boats by filling them with water, or try and blow boarders off the deck with high pressure hoses.

They also run 24 hour deck security watches in high risk areas.

mbt2001
November 19, 2008, 11:28 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY6nm-6eCzM&feature=related

myrockfight
November 19, 2008, 11:54 AM
Something I wanted to add. Everyone talks about the Somali pirates, and those operating off the coast of Africa.

I've been sailing my who life. My Dad sailed competitively and for giggles, mostly in the Carribean and the Gulf. He always carried a .30-06, pump-action, or an M1A and a shotgun.

My uncle had a ~60ft. Hatteras and always carried a FAL in .308. and a HK pistol.


Most sailors I know in the Carribean are decently armed. I don't think I would use anything smaller than a .30 caliber rifle. Probably a .308.

You don't hear much about the "Pirates of the Carribean", but they are out there. They just aren't operating on a scale like they are in Africa because of the presence of Coast Guard/Navy or other government entities.


It really grinds me (for some reason) to hear what they are doing over there in Africa to passing boats. It is a huge/expensive problem. What the frieghter companies need to do is outfit ex-Navy boats for escorts with .50s or .5 inch guns (something along those lines) that are relatively cheap.

I know they are using armed security teams on the boats though. Hopefully, that will be deterrent enough. Some of these boats have expensive cargos. But as the larger cargo boats will be covered and protected, the pirates are going to shift to the smaller, less protected luxury liners and private yachts.

Those can avoid the area however. They don't "have" to go through to get supplies, etc. to certain ports.


Did you guys hear about the pirates who were dying on a boat that they took over? Supposedly, the Iranian cargo ship had chemicals on it (or something else that would make you loose your hair, teeth, etc.). I'll bet the pirates and the Iranians were regretting that one. It came under international scrutiny. But I don't know what the conclusion was.

zminer
November 19, 2008, 01:24 PM
Did you guys hear about the pirates who were dying on a boat that they took over?

Interesting. I wonder what they were carrying:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,430681,00.html

yeti
November 19, 2008, 01:39 PM
ARRrrrgg,

Mr Bush, Mr Brown! Beat to quarters, sand the decks, and roll out a few 32lb guns, and them scurvy bilge rats will strike their colors, in double quick time.Then it will be time to open a bottle of Port and play some Whist, and a double ration of grog for the men.


sorry. not many pirates around here, I got to go through Horatio to participate.

Frog48
November 19, 2008, 02:02 PM
You're pretty much screwed if you get jumped by pirates. No lone individual or small group of recreational boaters with small arms will be able to fend off real-deal pirates.

BBQLS1
November 19, 2008, 02:06 PM
As a Merchant sailor, I have a LOT of experience in this area...

If you are only going to be pulling into the exact same port repeatedly, then you may carry weapons on board that are allowed by the port you are in. Many ports will not allow weapons through the gate, which is why many Merchant vessels are being taken over without opposition. Many host countries will not let vessels dock at their ports if they have even a single weapon on board, but some will allow minor small arms, such as shotguns.

My company has recently invested in the LRAD (Long range acoustic device) which has been shown to work as a deterrant, but if a pirate really wants to get your ship, they will just come back wearing really good hearing protection and thick clothing to combat the LRAD.

Most of the pirates operating in the "hot zone" (Off somalia and india) are armed with AK47's, RPGs, and various other small arms, some boats even having 50BMG machine guns mounted.

If a pirate cannot take a vessel, they have been known to just blow it up with the RPG's, or at least blow part of it off.

I doubt you're fishing in the "hot zone" so I don't think you have *too* much to worry about, but if you want the best protection available, grab an LRAD, grab a few shotguns, and a few semiauto rifles, as well as a few pistols for your crew.

You wouldn't know that a closing vessel is a pirate until they are in small arms range anyway. Most vessels don't know a pirate is coming until they're actually along side attempting to board.

Just my .02 on the subject

Good post!





I'd think you'd want an RPG!

statelineblues
November 19, 2008, 02:07 PM
Saw a report a few months ago on the piracy problem in that area - it turns out that some of the pirates are actually gov't officials of Somalia and Yemen. They look offical, because they are - and take over the boat once they get on board. I believe China/Indonesia recently executed a couple of port officers who were involved in the highjacking/murder of a transport ship and crew.

A friend who was in the Navy providing escort to tankers told me - if I recall what he said correctly - that an RPG (or some other fairly small weapon) could potentially put a hole in the hull of a commercial vessel.

Does anyone know if that makes sense?

Yes, it does - cargo ships aren't built like battleships. The thicker the hull, the more energy it takes to push it thru the water. For that matter, most ships have thin hulls - The suicide bombers that blew a hole in the USS Cole were in a 2-man zodiac (IIRC).

JDoe
November 19, 2008, 02:18 PM
A little more info on pirate attacks can be had here...

Live Piracy Map 2008 (http://www.icc-ccs.org/index.php?option=com_fabrik&view=visualization&controller=visualization.googlemap&Itemid=89)

This map shows all the piracy and armed robbery incidents reported to the IMB Piracy Reporting Centre during 2008. If exact coordinates are not provided, estimated positions are shown based on information provided. Zoom-in and click on the pointers to view more information of an individual attack. Pointers may be superimposed on each other.

jackdanson
November 19, 2008, 03:14 PM
Depending on budget I'd say one barrett for you and one m1a for each passenger. Throw on a couple pump shotguns in case of boarding. The barret could take out an engine if neccessary.

7.62X25mm
November 19, 2008, 03:22 PM
Commercial ships are using loudspeaker systems which will make the pirates nauseated and disoriented. Electrified barbed wire barriers around the hull. High steel walls on the deck rails. And armed guards.

Pirates have been photographed with RPG 7 -- which will blow a hole in the hull of a ship.

I'd think a "general policy" that in open seas if you're approaching a commercial freighter, you're viewed as "hostile" and subject to being fired upon. Radio communication can buffer this policy.

Then I'd get on board with 50 BMG and RPG 7. Air support would be good.

Zoogster
November 19, 2008, 03:49 PM
Pirates are quite a real problem that until the latest media covered hijackings of oil tankers and arm shipments went relatively unreported.
The biggest hotspots in the world are off Somalia, as well as portions of Southeast Asia. Indonesia and Malyasia are some problem areas.

Closer to the US off the coast of Venezuela and Columbia the danger of piracy is high. Some regions of Central America can pose a little danger as well.

The thing is, while the pirates MAY hijack you if you cannot defend yourself with arms, the governments of most of the world WILL throw you in prison for a long time for bringing firearms into port.
Even a regular 12 gauge as Jeff White mentions, is a big no no.
Weapons capable of battlling well armed pirates with Automatic weapons and RPGs is even worse.

It is nearly impossible to travel the world as a vessel unable to enter territorial while providing for your own protection.
Very close to the US, just traveling into Mexican or Canadian waters with a firearm, or even just rounds of ammunition can get you a prison sentence, nevermind actualy going into port.
So you have to decide to be an illegal smuggler of illegal weapons (that is what you are if you are hiding even weapons for personal use, and illegaly entering foriegn territories) with long prison sentences hanging over your head to be capable of defending yourself even while in international waters (as you normaly need to enter waters of various nations to travel.)

Further many pirates comunicate with local fisherman, and some are even connected to the local LEO, or have a mutual understanding. In fact in SouthEast Asia the local Maritime Security forces are often believed involved in or connected to a significant portion of acts of piracy. So thier Coast Guard is actualy in on many of the acts of piracy.

The pirates watch radar, and track passing vessels until they see an opportunity. They also communicate with local fishing vessels in the area. They then speed out on Zodiacs and other cheap high speed vessels to intercept foreign targets.
A single piracy brings in a sizeable sum of wealth, so they can afford even more tools to do it better in the future, and bribe local LEO/military.

If you did manage to defend yourself, it is quite likely the local nation's version of the Coast Guard, often part of thier military will be sent to intercept you when news of the event reaches them.

mljdeckard
November 19, 2008, 04:17 PM
Understand, this fades from reality to fantasy pretty quick. I don't see myself ever doing personal boating outside of U.S. waters, and if I did, it would NOT be off the coast of Somalia or other high risk areas. (Indonesian islands, the outskirts of the Carribean, etc.) This is one of the situations where if I ever thought I NEEDED to be heavily armed, it would be much better not to go there in the first place.

I'm really feeling the need for a variety here. For defense ON BOARD, start with marine model stainless shotguns, I'm sticking to 00 buck for this case. Sidearms for all crew, I'm suggesting either stainless or polymer. A certain amount of defensive team training and daily maintenence times will be required for the crew.

For defense immediately outside the vessel, It gets heavy really quick. You will need overwhelming force if you want any chance at all of repelling determined boarders. Full auto, drum and/or belt fed weapons. High volume, armor piercing. If this were in the international environment, I would look for some RPKs and AKs. Grenades would have a place in this.

Beyond that, I have no idea what laws dictate the circumstances where you are able to fire defensively or at what range, but since the OP asked specifically about SHTF, imagine Waterworld rules. You know who your friends are, everyone else keeps their hands up. Twin 12.7s on the bow, if your craft is large enough to handle them. API ammo. To engage at any significant range, you will need a high volume of fire to hit anything.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 19, 2008, 04:33 PM
This is kind of an odd question.

Nope it's not, actually. Anti-pirate boat guns have been discussed many, many times on here.

If you're shooting boat to boat, the sea makes you bounce around hurting accuracy, so you need volume to make up for lack of accuracy - think AK47 style with 75 round drums, or high-cap .308 or better yet, frame-mounted machine gun. :)

If you're shooting on your own boat against a boarding invader, then your target is bouncing around in direct relation to you so any standard CQB arm is good: tactical style shotgun or intermediate cartridge rifle (M4, etc).

I'd also want some hardcast lead 1 oz+ 12 ga slugs to put into their hull if they are on a small vessel, so that if they do rob you and leave and happen to leave you alive, their boat will slowly sink. If they kill you, maybe you can die with the satisfaction of knowing you've sunk them.

rogertc1
November 19, 2008, 04:50 PM
Marlin stainless lever action Guide Gun 45-70?

statelineblues
November 19, 2008, 04:52 PM
16.01.2008: 1345 LT: Posn: 16:58.17N - 082:24.26E, Kakinada OPL, India. Pirates in a small craft came alongside a tug, underway, towing a barge. They stole ship's stores. Alert crew raised alarm, crew mustered and took back the stolen stores and pushed the pirates back to their craft. The pirates boarded the barge and left after 20 minutes. Local agent informed

02.10.2008: 23.05 LT: Callao anchorage No.12 Peru Five masked robbers attempted to board a container ship at anchor via the anchor chain. Alert crew used fire hoses and flashlights to scare off the robbers.

22.04.2008: FUGRO GAUSS: 0430 LT: Mumbai anchorage, India. Four robbers in a motor boat attempted to board a research vessel at anchor. Attempt failed due to strict anti piracy watch.

28.06.2008: 2145 UTC: Takoradi Anchorage, Ghana. One robber, armed with a long knife, attempted to climb onboard a bulk carrier at anchor via the anchor chain. Alert duty watchman saw the robber and informed the duty officer who raised the alarm. On hearing the alarm, the robber jumped into the sea and escaped with two other accomplices waiting in a boat.

13.11.2008: 1245 UTC: Posn: 04:51.4S – 044:54.1E, Somalia. Pirates armed with automatic weapons and RPG chased and fired upon a container ship underway. Because of the firing, fire broke out in the third officers’ cabin. The vessel increased speed and made evasive manoeuvres. The pirate boat came alongside on port side. Pirates tried to embark on board but were unsuccessful. Later they aborted. Vessel continued to her destination port

SSN Vet
November 19, 2008, 04:55 PM
The small arms locker on our ship had the following...

M14 rifles (engage at range)

12ga short barreled folding stock Remmington shotguns (repell boarders that get into the ship)

Gov't 1911 .45 ACP pistols (top side sentry to controll access in a secure port and Duty Officer in foreign ports)

Telumehtar
November 19, 2008, 04:55 PM
Why would they want a fishing vessel? Who would pay any kind of ransom for it? What kind of commercial fishing is done off of East Africa?

I'm taking that one quote as it is the shortest version of the general attitude of misunderstanding that seems to be rampant in this thread.

Now don't get me wrong, the pirates in what they are doing are in no way heroes, good guys or even fully justified in the actions they are taking in my opinion. However the root cause of WHY they are doing it, is in response to a number of wrongs done to them, and their country. And it starts with Fishing Boats, and has now grown to Oil Tankers.

With governmental upheaval in Somalia and the inability of that country to project it's force into it's territorial waters to enforce it's sovreign borders, fishing rights, and trade lane rights, other governments have been turning a blind eye to the businesses within their own jurisdiction who have been taking advantage of this power vacuum. At first it started with trade route taking a short cut through their waters to shave off precious days or hours of travel time. A practice mind you, that if it were done in American waters would be met with the Coast Guard policing that boat.

After the realization that Somalia could not police their waters, it then graduated from trade lane incursions to outright theft of territorial fisheries. At first it was smaller boats from neighboring countries, but it slowly grew to the point where Japanese industrial tuna haulers(i.e. Super Sized Fishing Boats) were massively depleting the natural resources of the Somali coastline without government approval(mainly because there was no government to get approval from). The UN turned a blind eye to this practice, along with many of the nations involved in such a practice(which btw just happen to be many of our own allies like Japan, Saudi Arabia, Italy, or major trading partners like China).

The fishermen of Somalia have essentially been out competed from their livelyhoods, with no stable government to turn to for redress, and so began the seeds of piracy. Unable to feed their families, the first incidents of fishermen turned pirates began to appear in earnest, and low and behold they have perfected their new trade, and taking on ever larger targets.

What the American Press won't cover, and what is being swept under the rug due to corporate interests is the fact that the Somalis are actually fighting back, not starting a fight.

Like I said earlier, I don't condone what they are doing, nor would I expect the militaries of the world to just sit back and let them run rampant, but unless the root cause is addressed, and Somali territorial waters are respected, then we will continue to see this behavior. And for everyone wanting to beat up on the pirates, consider that essentially, they are the revolutionaries fighting against what they see as a tyranical incursion of foreign powers onto their home waters.

There are a lot of people who like to talk a big game about how they'll revolt against the goverment if the US ever gets too uppity and decides to take away their liberties, but these fellows in Somalia actually are AT THE BREAKING POINT where armed revolt is now the method by which they must pursue change. I'm not saying that revolution should never be pursued, but before talking too lightly about it, take a look at Somalia, because in the modern world, that is what a country thrown in the throes of Revolution would look like. And before passing judgement on backward third world fishermen, consider why it is that for decades, fishermen were fishermen, and in the course of 15 years the new trade is piracy. Something fundamentally changed over there to make fishing(a safe, peaceful and decent living) become non-viable.

gotime242
November 19, 2008, 05:06 PM
Id say a couple good saiga's in 7.62

SSN Vet
November 19, 2008, 05:11 PM
USS Cole were in a 2-man zodiac

nope....

it was a "garbage service boat" with a shaped charge.

an international court ruled that Somolia had assisted Al Quaida and was responsible

Zoogster
November 19, 2008, 05:41 PM
these fellows in Somalia actually are AT THE BREAKING POINT where armed revolt is now the method by which they must pursue change. I'm not saying that revolution should never be pursued, but before talking too lightly about it, take a look at Somalia, because in the modern world, that is what a country thrown in the throes of Revolution would look like.

Do keep in mind however that Government has come to power, but it is government opposed by foriegn leaders, and is therefore not recognized.
The Islamic Courts took control of most of the nation, and was establishing law and order. The Western backed government, the government Europe (and the US) wants to see in power barely held any territory in the North. Yet unless it is the Transitional Federal Government in control the international community will not recognize thier sovereignty.
Lots of money is pumped into the pro western interests government, as well as into places like Ethiopia to keep a conflict ongoing until the desired government is in power.

So the nation is more at war due to foreign powers. The Islamic Courts Union would have ruled the nation already and established law and order if not for foriegn meddling. The Islamic Courts Union though is very much like the Taliban, believing strongly in strict Sharia law. So many foreign nations would rather keep Somalia in perpetual conflict than allow the ICU to be recognized as the sovereign power and have to deal with them on an international level.

Foreign powers will not allow just any government to come to power in Somalia. A powerful Somali government would control the Gulf of Aden. A route that a lot of oil passes through.
If you understand actual world politics and power struggles it makes a lot more sense. There is a reason tiny nations like Djibouti are created, rather than just leaving them a part of a larger nation like Somalia. The tiny nation can be coerced and forced to abide by international controls. Very important since Djibouti is located on the narrowest gap in land between the Gulf of Aden and the Red Sea. However in more modern times the entire coastline "needs" to be controlled in light of modern vessels, technology etc So only the right Somali government will be allowed to exist. Until that "right" government controls most of the nation, the world will pretend no government exists, and will actively work to destabilize any other government.

Telumehtar
November 19, 2008, 05:50 PM
Do keep in mind however that Government has come to power, but it is government opposed by foriegn leaders, and is therefore not recognized.
The Islamic Courts took control of most of the nation, and was establishing law and order. The Western back government, the government Europe wants to see in power barely held any territory in the North. Yet unless it is the Transitional Federal Government in control the international community will not recognize thier sovereignty.
Lots of money is pumped into the pro western interests government, as well as into places like Ethiopia to keep a conflict ongoing until the desired government is in power.


Oh granted, there is a "government" but even the dominant faction is incapable at this time of force projection into it's territorial waters, let alone even all the land it claims. If the Islamic Government could project force in this manner, then recognition of that government by western powers becomes moot. When a Somali Naval vessel pulls up to a foreign commercial ship and demands to execute a search, it matters little at that point whether that ship's nation recognizes the Islamic government or not. Worse, if the ship is confiscated, that government will have to deal with the Islamic navy in order to secure it's release.

DRZinn
November 19, 2008, 05:52 PM
these fellows in Somalia actually are AT THE BREAKING POINT where armed revolt is now the method by which they must pursue change.Oh, please. Armed revolt means taking control of your country from another regime. Boarding and seizing ships in international waters is not revolt, it is theft.

rcmodel
November 19, 2008, 05:54 PM
that an RPG (or some other fairly small weapon) could potentially put a hole in the hull of a commercial vessel.
Does anyone know if that makes sense?RPG's were designed in the first place to shoot holes in tank armor.

They use a shaped charge HEAT round, and will burn a hole through 30 - 60 CM of armor plate.
That's about 1 to 2 foot of armor plate in plain English!

So, the relatively soft & thin steel plate on a ships hull & superstructure probably wouldn't be much of a challenge for them.

rcmodel

TAB
November 19, 2008, 06:00 PM
Most acts of piracy are done with small boats, So I would want something in 308 or bigger and AP ammo. A few good shots will disable them.( also remember you boat is a pretty damn big weapon.) Once on board you want something that has little chance of going thru bulk heads and coming back at you. I would think a pump shot gun with buck shot would be your best choice.

Telumehtar
November 19, 2008, 06:14 PM
Oh, please. Armed revolt means taking control of your country from another regime. Boarding and seizing ships in international waters is not revolt, it is theft.

Umm, have you NOT been paying attention to what has been happening in that country for the last 20 years? Piracy is just one front of that country's civil war, and more specifically, piracy is the answer for fishermen who have had their careers and method of providing stolen from them by commericial fishing, dumping, and trade incursions.

It is a revolt, beyond the factional infighting of that country it is a revolt against western influence and power grabbing.

If you want schooled in the matter I suggest you take a look at:

To turn the tide on piracy in Somalia, bring justice to its fisheries (http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/1120/p09s01-coop.html)

or Is Toxic Waste Behind Somali Piracy ? (http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/261147), specifically about the part concerning the containers washing up during the tsunami.

or if sources supporting my argument are too biased for you, how about the opposite with a little critical thought applied:

Spain urges international force to combat Somali piracy (http://www.hiiraan.com/news2_rss/2008/July/spain_urges_international_force_to_combat_somali_piracy.aspx)

In which Spain begs for international Armed intervention to protect it's fishing fleets while in Somalian waters. Hey... wait a sec... What the hell is Spain fishing in waters it doesn't have permission for? Oh that's right, Spain is STEALING Somali fisheries.

If you are going to make snap judgements about a people based on the spoon fed bull crap of the Western Media alone, then I suggest you might broaden your horizons a bit, read the foreign press(everything from friendly British papers to good old hostile Alijazeera and anything in between such as the Indian Times, the Ukrainian papers, the Isreali press) before making an opinion. Usually the truth is found by reading ALL sides of the propaganda put forth by all papers, and in general you will find that there are some pretty compelling reasons why America and our western partners are not well liked over seas. There's more reason to their hatred than simple religious differences. They truly beleive they have been wronged, and deserve justice, and in some cases, I have to agree with them.

statelineblues
November 19, 2008, 06:15 PM
Let's also remember that it's not just the Somali/Yemen area - piracy hotspots exist around India, Indonesia(one of the worst), the coast of western Africa, Phillipines, eastern and western coasts of South America, and southern China. And many of those areas have recognized, functioning governments.

KBintheSLC
November 19, 2008, 06:20 PM
I would want a nice, scoped bolt-action rifle in 308 or 30-06. The pirates will likely be armed with AK's, so I would want something that I can engage them with at double the distance.
For a major ocean vessel, I would just want a pair of turret mounted 20mm Vulcan's in a 6-barreled Gatling configuration.

jahwarrior
November 19, 2008, 06:20 PM
I also need to be able to discreetly stow this weapon for reasons having to do with laws in gun-unfriendly places or police

so, you want to know how to skirt, or even break the law?

did no one else catch this, or think this was odd for a first post?

we don't advise, condone or promote illegal behavior here.

mljdeckard
November 19, 2008, 06:33 PM
Somalis in small boats attacking cruise liners in coastal waters has nothing to do with defending sovereignity or helping revolution. I suppose it's lucky for them that the captains of those ships don't want to give the tourists a lesson in maritime defense law.

I find it difficult to swallow any arguments about territorial waters, when the nation itself can't even decide who's in charge. These pirates don't care about the environment, maritime law, or protecting Somali territory. They want to steal things. The perfect prize for the thug du jour might be say, a freighter full of Soviet tanks?

Telumehtar
November 19, 2008, 06:45 PM
I find it difficult to swallow any arguments about territorial waters, when the nation itself can't even decide who's in charge.

The point is, that since the warring factions are incapable of setting laws in regards to their territorial waters, and more over are incapable of projecting force into them, that other nations should respect those boundries and not enter them at all.

The fact that other nations and more importantly corporations are capitalizing on this weakness does not make it right. In otherwords this is a situation of Two wrongs making another wrong. If the corporate ships were being hijacked outside of territorial waters then the pirates are squarely in the wrong. But when the pirates hijack the boats in territorial waters you could make the argument that they are in fact acting as a defacto militia of sovreign waters.

Don't want hijacked, and more importantly want legitimacy to excercise "maritime law" then stay out of their waters. In the meantime, I don't have much sympathy for any boat that strays into their waters as essentially you've entered their domain and put yourself at their mercy.

mljdeckard
November 19, 2008, 06:46 PM
Nope. Still not sympathetic. They're pirates, not patriots.

shdwfx
November 19, 2008, 06:55 PM
we don't advise, condone or promote illegal behavior here.

My choice would be to avoid ports that infringe basic human rights altogether.

But, if that is not an option...

It's a matter of risk management.

On one hand, hiding arms from port authorities will land you in jail if caught.
On the other hand, if caught without arms during a pirate attack, you will get killed.

Lovely choice, that.

mbt2001
November 19, 2008, 07:02 PM
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/bigphotos/images/060706-modern-pirates_big.jpg

http://seafever.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/piracy-attacks-map-1208708119171.png?w=410&h=329

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3736239.ece

Pirates can claim UK asylumMarie Woolf, Whitehall Editor
THE Royal Navy, once the scourge of brigands on the high seas, has been told by the Foreign Office not to detain pirates because doing so may breach their human rights.

Warships patrolling pirate-infested waters, such as those off Somalia, have been warned that there is also a risk that captured pirates could claim asylum in Britain.

The Foreign Office has advised that pirates sent back to Somalia could have their human rights breached because, under Islamic law, they face beheading for murder or having a hand chopped off for theft.

In 2005 there were almost 40 attacks by pirates and 16 vessels were hijacked and held for ransom. Employing high-tech weaponry, they kill, steal and hold ships’ crews to ransom. This year alone pirates killed three people near the Philippines.

Last week French commandos seized a Somali pirate gang that had held a luxury yacht with 22 French citizens on board. The hijackers were paid off by the boat’s owner and then a French helicopter carrier dispatched 50 commandos to seize the hijackers and the ransom money on dry land.

Britain is part of a coalition force that patrols piracy stricken areas and the guidance has troubled navy officers who believe they should have more freedom to intervene.

The guidance was sharply criticised by Julian Brazier MP, the Conservative shipping spokesman, who said: “These people commit horrendous offences. The solution is not to turn a blind eye but to turn them over to the local authorities. The convention on human rights quite rightly doesn’t cover the high seas. It’s a pathetic indictment of what our legal system has come to.”

A Foreign Office spokesman said: “There are issues about human rights and what might happen in these circumstances. The main thing is to ensure any incident is resolved peacefully.”

The guidance is the latest blow to the robust image of the navy. Last year 15 of its sailors were taken prisoner by the Iranians and publicly humiliated.

In the 19th century, British warships largely eradicated piracy when they policed the oceans. The death penalty for piracy on the high seas remained on the statute books until 1998. Modern piracy ranges from maritime mugging to stealing from merchant ships with the crew held at gunpoint.

DRZinn
November 19, 2008, 07:21 PM
Piracy is just one front of that country's civil war, and more specifically, piracy is the answer for fishermen who have had their careers and method of providing stolen from them by commericial fishing, dumping, and trade incursions.That's ridiculous. Look up the meaning of "civil war." It does not include theft from third parties.

If you pay attention you'll notice I'm not addressing the issue of their being "forced into it" by greedy foreign corporations or other circumstances. I'm simply saying you can't logically put it into the context of a "civil war" or a "revolt." That's a blatant attempt to romanticize it.

If you are going to make snap judgements...based on the spoon fed bull crap ...you might broaden your horizons a bit...before making an opinion...the truth is found by reading ALL sides of the propaganda ...Sure, but my "opinion" is based on the actual meaning of words, not any propaganda by any side.

there are some pretty compelling reasons why America and our western partners are not well liked over seas. There's more reason to their hatred than simple religious differences. They truly beleive they have been wronged, and deserve justice, and in some cases, I have to agree with them.Now you're pulling in other arguments entirely. Sure, there are some good reasons for some people not to like us. Sure, they have good reason not to like each other. Sure, some great wrongs have been done. All that is irrelevant to the case of piracy. If the pirates were attacking ONLY foreign ships fishing in Somali waters you might have a point.

If you steal tomatoes from my garden, and I then go and steal clothes from my neighbor's car, how can one justify the other?

But when the pirates hijack the boats in territorial waters you could make the argument that they are in fact acting as a defacto militia of sovreign waters.Not realistically you couldn't. Legitimate states do not claim ownership of everything that passes through their waters.

tpaw
November 19, 2008, 07:33 PM
Get the navy or the coast guard as an escort, you'll need it. Those pirates carry everything under the sun. Automatic machine guns, RPG's and the like. Not to mention that you will be heavily out numbered. I guess what I'm saying is, prepare to become shark bait.

bulltaco
November 19, 2008, 07:37 PM
How about enlisting some Gurkhas as security or members of the crew.

Ky Larry
November 19, 2008, 08:11 PM
I remember seeing a movie called "The Sand Pebbles" with Steve McQueen.The American Navy gun boat in the movie held a Repell Boarders drill. The crew was armed with Springfields, BAR's. .45 Autos, cutlass's,high pressure water hoses, steam hoses, and a 3 inch cannon. Don't know if this would work against modern pirates but they would damn sure know they'd been a fight.

John-Melb
November 19, 2008, 10:07 PM
Some really good news re. pirates, this morning, there's a few fewer pirates threatening honest seamen. A pirate mother ship locked horns with an Indian frigate, scratch one pirate vesel.
------------------------------------
Indian navy destroys pirate ship as super-tanker ransom demanded
16 hours ago

MOGADISHU, Somalia (AFP) — An Indian warship destroyed a pirate "mother vessel" in the Gulf of Aden, the navy said Wednesday, as bandits demanded a ransom for a Saudi super-tanker seized in the most daring sea raid yet.

The Indian frigate INS Tabar, one of dozens of warships from several countries protecting shipping lanes in the area, attacked the Somali pirate ship late Tuesday after coming under fire, navy spokesman Nirad Sinha said.

The incident came as shipping groups reported a new surge in hijackings off Somalia and the International Maritime Bureau said pirates based in the lawless African nation were "out of control".

"The INS Tabar closed in on the mother vessel and asked her to stop for investigation," the New Delhi navy spokesman said.

"But on repeated calls, the vessel's threatening response was that she would blow up the naval warship if it approached."

An exchange of fire ensued, causing explosions and the navy ship then used heavy guns. "From what we see in photographs the pirate vessel is completely destroyed," a senior officer said on condition he not be named.

It was the first time a mother ship had been destroyed, in the most significant blow to pirates to date.

The piracy crisis has grown since the weekend capture of the super-tanker Sirius Star. The huge vessel was carrying a full load of two million barrels of oil worth around 100 million dollars.

Al-Jazeera, the Arabic satellite television channel, broadcast an audio tape it said was of one of the pirates making a ransom demand.

"Negotiators are located on board the ship and on land. Once they have agreed on the ransom, it will be taken in cash to the oil tanker," said the man identified as Farah Abd Jameh, who did not indicate the amount to be paid.

Vela International, owners of the ship, said it "cannot confirm, nor deny" the reports, citing the safety of the crew.

Seized in the Indian Ocean some 500 miles (800 kilometres) off the African coast, the Sirius Star is now anchored at the Somali pirate lair of Harardhere, according to local officials.

The super-tanker has 25 crew -- 19 from the Philippines, two from Britain, two from Poland, one Croatian and one Saudi. It was the largest ship yet taken by Somali pirates and the attack furthest away from Somalia.

Pirates have hijacked three ships since capturing the Sirius Star.

Andrew Mwangura, from the East African Seafarers Association, said a Thai fishing boat, a Hong Kong-registered freighter, the Delight, and a Greek bulk carrier were seized Tuesday in the Gulf of Aden.

The Greek merchant marine ministry said it had no word of a Greek-flagged or Greek-owned vessel being seized but the other hijackings were confirmed.

The Delight, chartered by the Islamic Republic of Iran Shipping Lines, was carrying 25 crew members and 36,000 tonnes of wheat when it was seized on its way to the Iranian port of Bandar Abbas.

The shipping line's senior official Ensan Najib told IRNA news agency that no contact had been made with the ship and the hijackers.

On Wednesday, pirates released another Hong Kong-flagged ship, MV Great Creation, and its 25 crew seized two months ago, Mwangura told AFP, adding it was unclear whether a ransom was paid.

In southern Somalia, the hardline Islamist alliance controlling the key port of Kismayo promised tough measures to protect ships.

Pirates use mother ships, generally hijacked trawlers or deep-sea dhows, to tow speedboats from which they launch their attacks with grapnel hooks tied to rope ladders before neutralising the crews at gunpoint.

The Indian navy action could hamper the pirates in the Gulf of Aden but the group holding the Sirius Star operates from mother ships further south.

The Gulf of Aden controls access to the Suez Canal, which allows trade between Europe and Asia without taking the longer and more expensive route around southern Africa.

The European Union will launch its anti-piracy operation -- its first-ever -- off Somalia December 8 to boost warships from NATO, the United States and other nations already in the region, French Defence Minister Herve Morin said in Paris.

In Washington, the White House urged joint efforts to rescue the super-tanker.

Spokeswoman Dana Perino said "the goal would be to try to help get this ship to safety, secure the crew, and then work with our international partners to try to alleviate the piracy problem full stop."

Speaking in Beirut, British Foreign Secretary David Miliband called piracy "a threat to trade and prosperity."
----------------------------------

To paraphrase a great man from history, "There is but one reply to piracy, and it's best delivered with a 5 inch gun"

XD-40 Shooter
November 19, 2008, 10:28 PM
How about some 7.62 mini-guns, one fore and aft, 2 on each side, that ought to light'em up.:D

statelineblues
November 19, 2008, 11:35 PM
Don't want hijacked, and more importantly want legitimacy to excercise "maritime law" then stay out of their waters. In the meantime, I don't have much sympathy for any boat that strays into their waters as essentially you've entered their domain and put yourself at their mercy.

Seized in the Indian Ocean some 500 miles (800 kilometres) off the African coast, the Sirius Star is now anchored at the Somali pirate lair of Harardhere, according to local officials.

Sorry - NO country has a 500 mile exclusion zone...

BrianB
November 20, 2008, 02:09 AM
I know of somebody with 2 big boats in the Caribbean. They have EVERYTHING on board.

bearmgc
November 20, 2008, 02:18 AM
Better that we be vigilant for more acts of terrorism in the US, ie. new president, who appantly isn't as well received by others outside the US, as we thought. We need to be more watchful around utility structures, natural gas and gasoline suppliers and holding, transfer areas. Let's be a little more realistic about this. Yet another reason to buy an EBR. Did we forget?

BHP FAN
November 20, 2008, 03:46 AM
The real weapon of the pirates is fear...and an RPG.Have you noticed in every picture of these Somali pirates,at least one of them has an RPG. Lets say we're on a tanker and armed [most actually are not,as thier countrys of origin may have restrictions against it,and if not the territories they pass through may have laws against,or seriously restricting the use of them] and you look down to see a speedboat circling around you with an RPG pointed at your super tanker full of gasoline,or natural gas.You know that most of the time the company pays the ransom,and the crew lives.Or,you could go all Steven Segal on thier a**,annoying the fellow with the rocket propelled grenade,tipped by a shaped charge,capable of turning a bit of your steel your hull into a white hot jet of gases and molton metal...anyone see the problem here?

FourTeeFive
November 20, 2008, 04:00 AM
If you stay out of USA waters you could have all sorts of interesting armament. How about this:

http://www.dillonaero.com/content/p/9/pid/1/catid/1/Standard_M134D

BHP FAN
November 20, 2008, 04:17 AM
I think you'd best stay out of anybody's waters with that!Seriously cool.

Telumehtar
November 20, 2008, 02:14 PM
That's ridiculous. Look up the meaning of "civil war." It does not include theft from third parties.


Again you must not have studied your history too well, or understand the dynamics of the situation in Somalia.

In the American Revolution, the Continental congress issued Letters of Marque to have privateers sieze merchant ships and provide arms, and supplies to the continental army and insurgent revolutionaries. The French specifically had a pass from these privateers because they were funding, and supplying our revolt. The English(our enemies) along with the Dutch, Hessian, and several other nation's ships were all fair game(and coincidently all happened to be French rivals economically or militarily).

The issuing of Letters of Marque continued even after the Revolutionary War as the US needed to increase it's force projection into the oceans immediately, and was incapable of fielding a proper navy. It wasn't until the US became a contender on the seas that Letters of Marque stopped being issued. Furthermore, any sailors caught by the British who came from these privateering vessels were not accorded POW status, but rather criminals of the high seas, and were enprisoned seperately with the high expectation that they were to be hanged.

Simply put, we robbed third parties during our revolution and even after our establishment as a nation. There was a reason that the British empire during the 19th century referred to Americans as brigands, theives and scoundrels.

In the case of Somalia, the money gained from Piracy is not the end all of the game being played over there. Certainly the ransoms are useful, and the pirates and towns rising up around those pirates are doing well, but the Islamic government currently in "control"(I say that loosely) is deliberately allowing and even secretly encouraging pirate activity in order to garner international attention. If anything it allows the Islamic Courts Union to highlight the weakness of the UN appointed Transitional government, which in turn grants legitimacy, and possibly funding and negotiations between the UN and the ICU. A prime example of this are reports of pirates docking in the Southern portions of Somalia where the Al-Shabaab "The Youth" permit their presence.

What's even more fun, is that there are also links between the the current Transitional UN appointed government and the pirates. The earlier Fox news link had one such example pointing out that Abdullahi Yusuf Ahmed of the provisional government might be trying to use piracy in conjunction with fabricated "thefts" to make Somalia a more central part of the War on Terror (which in turn would lead to more funding and military backing to the UN appointed government).

So you see piracy, in Somalia anyways, is a very integral part of the civil war that is occuring over there. Is it black mail to the rest of the world? Certainly. Is it pulling in "innocent" third parties, most definitely. But then, isn't that similar to the bargain we struck with France during the American revolution. France had a vested interest in seeing the colonies break away from Britain, and in return we privateered against France's military and economic rivals and had some cushy trade relations with them in the years following, including the Louisiana purchase.

Matrix187
November 20, 2008, 03:15 PM
MG-3, or MG 42 :neener:

grimjaw
November 20, 2008, 03:30 PM
Gotta think it'd be less expensive for them to sink your fishing boat than sell/ransom it.

jm

Zoogster
November 20, 2008, 04:07 PM
and an RPG.Have you noticed in every picture of these Somali pirates,at least one of them has an RPG.
An RPG on the open seas is a close range weapon with only one shot (if facing armed opposition.)

If you are 500 miles out to sea, in a well equiped large vessel, you clearly see any vessel approaching miles before they arrive, both through instrumentation and visualy.

You cannot outrun the high speed boat, but you can look out at it, attempt to hail it, and if there is no response from what is clearly not an ocean going vessel that far at sea, freely open fire.

While bobbing around and you are just a dot on thier horizon, use of the RPG would be a serious chore. High volumes of machinegun fire will cause them significant trouble.

If a high speed boat with less than 100 mile range is closing in on you 500 miles out to sea in waters known for piracy, you don't need to wait until they are close before you know they are a threat. Further, the large vessel will be much more stable in the seas. Allowing for easier aiming than from the speedboat bouncing around.
So the advantage goes to the large vessel unless they let the smaller vessels get close.

DRZinn
November 20, 2008, 04:48 PM
"But we did it, too" changes nothing. Third parties are third parties.

RyanM
November 20, 2008, 04:52 PM
For repelling boarders, how about a flamethrower? Give them some real incentive to jump overboard. :p

Actually, it might not be that hard to have a pile of tools and junk lying around, which might escape inspectors' notice, that could be assembled into some kind of flame projecting device. For emergency signalling purposes only, of course. Tank o' kerosene (emergency fuel), propane torch (emergency welding and repairs), some kind of compressor (inflating life rafts in a hurry)...

Telumehtar
November 20, 2008, 05:54 PM
"But we did it, too" changes nothing. Third parties are third parties.

Well for one it completely deflates your rebuttal. Two, it also shows that your limited definition of "civil war" and "revolution" does not cover the realities involved with prosecuting either of those, as exampled in several historic cases, along with the current example of Somalia. Basically it means you are incorrect in your assertion.

Furthermore, I never said that I supported the pirates, or thought what they are doing is right. What I specifically stated was that I think they were in the wrong due to certain nuances in the way they are prosecuting their campaign(hijacking ships beyond their waters being a big one), but that ultimately they are committing these wrongs in response to wrongs done to them. If we truly want a just resolution to the piracy problem and more broadly the Somali problem we have to correct not just the pirates, but the original criminals who violated Somali waters, and deprived those people of their livelihoods. Until that occurs, they have no reason to cease being pirates because as it stands, despite increased international pressure, piracy is paying off pretty damn well for them.

DRZinn
November 20, 2008, 06:42 PM
Well for one it completely deflates your rebuttal.Not in the slightest. A tangential activity that sometimes occurs coincident to a civil war or rebellion does not then become part of what a civil war or rebellion is.

ultimately they are committing these wrongs in response to wrongs done to themWhich is entirely irrelevant to the question at hand. Again, if you rob me and I, in response, rob my neighbor, that is not retaliation, justified or otherwise.

dexter11
November 21, 2008, 12:45 AM
Personally I think a couple of Barrett M107's would do nicely on the water...

BHP FAN
November 21, 2008, 01:09 AM
''An RPG on the open seas is a close range weapon with only one shot (if facing armed opposition]...''
Zoogster,you make a coupla very good points,but the RPG ,while it is a single shot it is not a one use weapon,and is fairly quick to reload.
Also,while I was in the Navy we tried to hit 55 gal. drums bobbing in the water with machine guns,for target practice.It's surprisingly hard to do.

ericyp
November 21, 2008, 04:04 AM
Which is entirely irrelevant to the question at hand. Again, if you rob me and I, in response, rob my neighbor, that is not retaliation, justified or otherwise

I think he's just pointing out that, if the problem is piracy then we should get to the problem itself rather than dealing with the symptoms of the problem-the pirates. Because they will continue to do so and new pirates will continue to patrol. Instead of swatting the mosquitoes in your yard when they try to bite you, it's more effective to get rid of the standing water they're coming from. Telu, your insights are appreciated by me anyways.

BHP FAN
November 21, 2008, 04:18 AM
And it's a good point.Still,to discourage pirates a few warships camoed as ''cargo ships'',armed to the teeth [kinda the same concept as Air Marshals] might be a good idea.

FourTeeFive
November 21, 2008, 05:35 PM
Some of the 12-gauge specialty rounds might be handy (especially if you happened to have some glass containers full of flammable liquid available for throwing):

http://www.firequest.com/catalog/showcase_item_4.html

FourTeeFive
November 21, 2008, 05:36 PM
A while ago there was an incident with a cruise ship where pirates threatened it. The captain of the cruise ship merely kept going full throttle. It took some hits but accomplished one thing; it is VERY hard to board a boat that is in motion. Eventually the pirates gave up.

XD-40 Shooter
November 21, 2008, 09:15 PM
Last night on Fox news, it was reported that several of these shipping companies are considering hiring Blackwater teams to put on their boats. You can pretty much guarantee that these pirates would get lit up by Blackwater, they would never be allowed to board the boat.

Jeff F
November 21, 2008, 09:30 PM
To have half a chance at stopping a pirate attack like the ones around Africa it would take at a minimum a M2 .50 cal or two and one of those 40mm auto grenade launchers and a lot of luck. Those guys are well armed with automatic weapons and RPG's. Unless you can engage in a big way and from a distance they will blast you out of the water.

TAB
November 21, 2008, 09:34 PM
jeff ever try to fire a weapon from a small boat at speed in the open ocean?

Even hitting something the size of a tanker is not easy, let alone hitting a person on said boat.

bonez
November 23, 2008, 10:31 PM
If I had the lives of a crew as my responsibility and were concerned about pirates, the Dillon M134 would be at the top of my list. Now selling them to "collectors". 4000 rounds/min. 4000 round magazine. Mounts for anything you may want to put them on. Amazingly small for what they are.

Ignition Override
November 24, 2008, 01:32 AM
I chatted with a boat owner at a Bass Pro Shop ammo aisle, whose boat was boarded about 0200. This was totally unexpected, and I don't know how large his boat is.
He offered no info about what the drug gang took etc or near which island(s), but I suspect it was the Bahamas or Jamaica etc.

Not wanting to embarass him with nosy questions, he said that he was taking a shotgun next time he returns to whichever country in the Caribbean, although their laws do not allow this.

Once they surprise you at either very close range (why would they want to make noise? they could use paddles), maybe already on your deck, it can be your last decision to pop up out of a hatch with a gun in your hand.

This was the idea of a famous bicycle racer who was in the Caribbean a few years ago.
He might have assumed that the bad guys were unprepared or were unarmed, or were plain stupid, although they had every tactical advantage on a smallish sailboat. He was already in their sights when he came up with a gun in hand, as they were on deck, and he did not survive the most important decision of his young life. The small article was in a fairly recent "Outside" magazine.

Good luck with your decisions.

Telumehtwar: Many of the French still feel that we have never properly thanked them for helping us win the Revolution, but so many Americans assume that our gigantic sacrifices in WW1 and 2 is the entire story of such ingratitude.

ryan m
November 24, 2008, 06:49 PM
Cooper thought the .30 browning machine gun would be just about right for a small vessel to ward off pirates. I suspect it would be a good choice as well. Belt fed and reliable, I don't think a .50 is needed to go through a pirate or most small boats. Mix in some API and tracers. Semi auto versions are available at a gun store near you.

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