Home Defense Question


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Cyborg
November 18, 2008, 09:42 PM
I do not presently own any long guns but am looking at getting one or more shoulder weapons for home defense and would like to pick the brains of the folks here. I have two basic questions.

1) Where/how could I acquire a (not necessarily new) M1A (or equivalent) for home defense. I like the ability of the steel jacketed 7.62mm to penetrate one side of a vehicle but not the other. I'm not worried about 1000yd accuracy, 200-300 yds is plenty. I am also leery of the M1 and Garand because of their limited magazine size and lack of ease of reloading. What can you folks tell me?

2) I am looking at one of the semi-auto carbines that shoot pistol ammo for intermediate range work - further than the tactical ranges that I'd use my Glock or Baby Eagle for but closer than the 7.62. Wouldn't I get better accuracy at 25-100yds and good stopping power with a carbine firing the same .40S&W that my Glock and Baby Eagle use?

You guys are MUCH smarter about weapons than I am.

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HOLY DIVER
November 18, 2008, 09:52 PM
YEAH a rifle will shoot a .40 more accurate than a pistol now don't go wanting it to shoot 7/8 the way through a car! my personal rec. would be a AK or SKS

gvnwst
November 18, 2008, 09:55 PM
For a rifle, a AR or AK sounds more suited to your uses than a larger M!A. FOr a carbine, Kel tec's Sub-2000 and beretta's storm carbine are both good choices.

RP88
November 18, 2008, 09:55 PM
your best bet is gonna be an AR15 (14.5-16" carbine).

your best bet for the money is gonna be a pump shotgun.

Niether are too bad on pentration.

Bearhands
November 18, 2008, 09:59 PM
1) Where/how could I acquire a (not necessarily new) M1A (or equivalent) for home defense. I like the ability of the steel jacketed 7.62mm to penetrate one side of a vehicle but not the other. I'm not worried about 1000yd accuracy, 200-300 yds is plenty.


Home Defense @ 2-300 yards? Shooting through cars?! Where is your home man?!

woodfiend
November 18, 2008, 10:19 PM
First off, 7.62 NATO doesn't use steel jackets. The only manufacturer that may do that is WOLF. Not sure there. In addition, I think 7.62 NATO would go through the whole car anyway as long as it didn't hit the engine block. The only ammo that might do this would have to be mushrooming hunting ammo or expanding hollowpoints and such. Even then, there is no guarantee. Second, the M1 and the Garand are the same rifle.

SCMtns
November 18, 2008, 11:36 PM
I have an M1A Scout myself, but I can't say I'd recommend it for home defense. It even says in the owner's manual that it would be a poor choice for home defense or "neighborhood patrol," which made me laugh out loud when I read it. 7.62 is a great choice for a lot of things at 200-300 yds, but at that range it's not home defense, it's hunting or sniping. (Unless we're invaded, I suppose, but who'd be crazy enough to do that?)

You'd be better off picking up something in .223 or 12 gauge, as others here are recommending, and maybe eventually picking up an M1A as a less likely to be useful but so damn fun choice. If I were to reach for a long gun in any sort of home defense scenario, it'd be either my Ruger Mini-14 or my Benelli 12-ga pump. If I lived in a free state, it'd be an AR-15 M4gery. The people who make gun laws in California know almost nothing about guns, so they think I can't be trusted with a semi-auto if it's black and has a pistol grip. Hopefully wherever you live, those people work in libraries rather than in government.

You might also want to consider that if you ever use a weapon in self-defense, the cops are almost certain to take it away for a good while, and possibly forever. Depends on where you live and how the situation shakes out. Think how you'd feel if the cops took your $1500 battle rifle instead of your $300 12-ga pump. Save the battle rifle for 1) the range and 2) a hypothetical end-of-the-world scenario in which you no longer have to worry about what the police and the courts think, if you care to prepare for such an unlikely event.

Edited to add: google up a site called waterboxotruth.com to see how many things will go all the way through a car. I think that particular one is called the Buick o' Truth.

Kind of Blued
November 18, 2008, 11:56 PM
Home Defense @ 2-300 yards? Shooting through cars?! Where is your home man?!

This was my question as well... :scrutiny:

Cyborg
November 19, 2008, 01:00 AM
A couple of guys asked about 2-300 yds and home defense. I was thinking of defending my family's compound in central New Mexico. Pistols and a scattergun (loaded with flechette rounds?) and even the pistol caliber carbine would be OK for meeting them at the gate but what if I wanted to post someone up on the wind turbine tower a couple of hundred yards away from the road? How well would an M1 do for that? And there is still the magazine capacity issue. IIRC, standard issue M1 had a 5rd internal mag. If the fertilizer impacted the wind machine wouldn't it be better to have the M1A's larger capacity, quickly replacable mag? My son (a vet of the 1st trip to the sandbox) has neighbors who share a lot of our beliefs about individual freedoms and who have already agreed to band together should everything go into the toilet. I might NEED something to reach out and touch someone with at 300yds or better but it would still be home defense.

As for the 7.62 not being able to exit a vehicle, I have heard that from many sources - most notably my son. He had a close encounter of the unpleasant kind with an empty blue bus of the sort that the Iraquis used to move troops around in '91. He and some of his 88mike buddies had been dismounted and put on foot patrol. Ray was on point when he came accross the bus. Frakking thing (hope Granny isn't a BG fan) started shooting at him. He happened to be humping that 7.62 light machine gun that was the follow-on to the Nam era M60. After pouring a couple hundred rounds into the side of the bus and then emptying all his .223 ammo, he pulled the .45 I sent him and kicked open the door of the bus. Not a creature was stirring - not even a louse. Final score Ray-14, Iraqi bus-0. He told me that it looked like all his rounds had bounced around inside. IMS he got a ribbon with a little metal star for that activity.

mnrivrat
November 19, 2008, 02:50 AM
Hi

For 7.62 rifles the detachable magazine is certainly a nice feature and among the better candidates are the M1A , FAL, AR10 (or that style). The old M1 Garand actualy is an 8 round clip feed and not a bad choice either.

For handgun cartridge carbines look perhaps at Kel-Tec , Hi-Point, Beretta . These are made in 9mm, .40S&W, and Beretta at least in .45 Auto

Penitration is a matter that has several factors involved. The 7.62 Nato round can easily penitrate through area's of regular cars and light trucks. Note I say area's because there are area's that have heavier or more metal , and then there is the angles, and the distance from the muzzle, etc.

C-grunt
November 19, 2008, 05:20 AM
Dont count out the AR15. With the green tip M855 rounds, current issue, you should have no problems in the penetration department. In fact gov. studies say it penetrates more at a few hundred yards than the 7.62.

If you want the 7.62 though, I gotta agree with mnrivrat above that the M1A, FAL, AR10 and Ill add the G3/HK91/Cetme rifles would all be a great choice.

That machine gun your son was carrying is called the M240. I loved that gun when I was in. Tell your son good job for me.

gvnwst
November 19, 2008, 12:06 PM
AR is your best bet. Accurate for cheap (compared to the M1) and has enough penetration. IIRC, most M1s are heavier than the AR, and so a guard ina tower probably would like the AR better. That and thefact that if he blotches a shot, follow up is quicker. Also able to put out more rounds more quickly, if the need arises.


Buckshot (or fletchetts) would be fine for a shotgun, most will recomend a 870, the standard of shotguns.

Rifleman 173
November 20, 2008, 02:35 AM
Olympic Arms makes a couple of AR-16 type carbines that use Glock pistol magazines in either 9 mm or .40 S&W. Imagine using the same ammo and magazines for both your pistol and carbine. I just thought that you might like to take a gander at the .40 cal version.

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=60&category_id=7&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37

zombienerd
November 20, 2008, 03:23 AM
Well, I'll show you the "carbine" I'm getting as a secondary HD gun...

Shoots 9mm rounds, and has a 30rd Mag capacity...

I believe it qualifies as a EBR also :D

http://www.masterpiecearms.com/proddetail.php?prod=MPA20SST-A


You can find them for sale at
http://www.tickbitesupply.com/mpa.html


Cheaper than an AR, shoots inexpensive 9mm rounds, 30rd mag, takes scopes and AR handguard accessories, you can't go wrong. (Also available in .45 cal)

foghornl
November 20, 2008, 11:18 AM
The US Rifle Cal .30 M1, popularly known as "The Garand" uses an 8-round 'En-Bloc' clip. The clip is ejected after the last round is fired, and bolt stays open. I can reload my M1 Garand faster than any other rifle I own. (I'm not too shabby with the 10-round stripper clips for my SKS, but the M1 is faster.)

For "Pistol-Caliber-Carbine/Rifle" things, there are a bunch out there... 9mm, .40, .45ACP (used only, no one currently offers an auto-loader carbine in .45ACP) Lever-action guns open up more choices... .357Mag or .44Mag or .45Colt. Non-Pistol caliber choices are even more available.. .30/30, .35Rem, .45-70 .444Marlin, and many others.

Kleanbore
November 20, 2008, 11:41 AM
From Cyborg: Where/how could I acquire a (not necessarily new) M1A (or equivalent) for home defense. I like the ability of the steel jacketed 7.62mm to penetrate one side of a vehicle but not the other. I'm not worried about 1000yd accuracy, 200-300 yds is plenty.

Suggest you get some legal advice on what kind of shooting situation involving shooting at a vehicle and/or at such a distance might constitute justifiable homicide.

Personally, I cannot visualize any in the U. S.

Let us know what you find out.

ProCarryNAustin
November 20, 2008, 01:39 PM
I read through your scenario a couple of times. No offense, but if that actually comes to pass the first thing you will find out is that the other guys will be able to bring bigger toys to the party than you will be able to get ahold of.

Just a thought.

Daniel
Austin, Texas

woodfiend
November 20, 2008, 01:51 PM
"As for the 7.62 not being able to exit a vehicle, I have heard that from many sources - most notably my son. He had a close encounter of the unpleasant kind with an empty blue bus of the sort that the Iraquis used to move troops around in '91."

Ok, a bus is completely different from a car. Is your "compound" going to be attacked by BGs with Iraqi troop carriers.

JDoe
November 20, 2008, 02:19 PM
How much $$ do you have available for these purchases (including ammo)?

How many people would you be arming?

RockyMtnTactical
November 20, 2008, 10:43 PM
Ar15 :)

madcratebuilder
November 20, 2008, 10:52 PM
Your best bet for a home defense long gun would be a shotgun. A pump or sxs. A jacketed bullet from a hi-power rifle well go through your walls and the walls of your neighbors.
A Remington ot Mossberg pump 12ga is low cost and reliable. Buy some ammo and practice. #4 buck is deadly and well not penetrate into your neighbors home. My AR's and M1A's are in the safe, my shotgun is beside the bed.

GarandOwner
November 20, 2008, 11:00 PM
Out of curiosity, what would be your answer on the form for your background check for number 12......you know the one that states "Have you ever been adjudicated incapacitated, committed to a mental institution, or adjudicated mentally defective? Yes, or No"

Mike U.
November 20, 2008, 11:39 PM
Cyborg,

Do you and your family a favor and drop the whole idea of using flechettes.
They are just barely on this side of worthless. Flechettes are a novelty shell that do not adequately penetrate and many or most of the darts hit the target sideways. They also don't fly very far. I've read and seen pics of test results but I can't remember where right now. All that was proven was they are nearly worthless for social situations.
It could cost you big if you only piss your opponent off by sticking him with a few pins.

If your engaging an opponent from 0-40 yards use buckshot. 0-100 yards use slugs. Going for targets 100 to 150 yards out with a shotgun? Use sabot slugs. Your choice. Stick with what's proven.
Also be aware of over-penetration issues. Slugs and buckshot could be hazardous to others if used indoors because of over-penetration.

Please discard the idea of using novelty shells in your shotgun. Unless your doing it for entertainment purposes.

Dr_2_B
November 20, 2008, 11:41 PM
I've always liked the extra velocity one gets from a pistol cartridge when it's fired from a carbine. BUT my personal feelings are as follows: If I'm going employ a long gun, I'm definitely going to fire a long gun cartridge. I'd recommend an AR 15 for your purposes.

Cyborg
November 21, 2008, 01:09 AM
Thanks for the response on flechettes, Mike. I had read some things about them but had never actually used one. I also was not aware of there being a sabot round for a scattergun. What is the caliber of the actual projectile and how much energy would it actually transfer to the target since I would expect it to "over penetrate"?

I have also wondered what would happen if you put lead shot slightly smaller than double ought into a thin, light sub casing such as that in which the flechettes are kept. Logically, wouldn't that keep the round balls from bouncing around as they traveled down the barrell and thus keep them in a tighter pattern? My understanding is that part of the inaccuracy of a scattergun is due to the pellets bounding off one another and being deformed in the process.

Please note that I do NOT consider myself to be highly knowledgable as regards firearms. I own 2 semi-automatic pistols chambered for .40 S&W (a Glock 22 and a compact Uzi Eagle) and an inexpensive 12gau pump SG.

As for using a long gun to defend my home, I guess they don't have "drive by" shootings where you live. They're getting pretty common here in Alamo Town. I fairly certain that having the holes in the brick siding of my house would keep me from being prosecuted for returning fire. I have already prepared a strong point in my front bedroom. Between the brick and the quarter inch of steel behind the gyp board, I figure I'm safe from most things the gang bangers are likely to carry.

As for wanting to reach out and touch someone at 300yds, that would only be in a post "things totally gone to hell in a handbasket" scenario. Think "The Postman" or "Mad Max" or Jericho". Or read the installments of Mike Vanderboegh in-work novel. Or maybe it would be a world like John Titor said he came from.

Frog48
November 21, 2008, 01:49 AM
...weapons for home defense

...to penetrate one side of a vehicle but not the other

...200-300 yds is plenty.

For what its worth:

It would be pretty difficult to justify, in court, a 200-300 yard shot as self-defense. Especially if you're intentionally shooting through barriers such as vehicles in the process.

Cyborg
November 21, 2008, 02:19 AM
For what its worth:

It would be pretty difficult to justify, in court, a 200-300 yard shot as self-defense. Especially if you're intentionally shooting through barriers such as vehicles in the process.
As I said in the post immediately above your question:As for wanting to reach out and touch someone at 300yds, that would only be in a post "things totally gone to hell in a handbasket" scenario. Think "The Postman" or "Mad Max" or "Jericho". Or read the installments of Mike Vanderboegh in-work novel. Or maybe it would be a world like John Titor said he came from. At that point defending something in court would be rather moot. Also, if you don't recognize the name "John Titor", remember - Google is your friend. ;)

Dusty308223
November 21, 2008, 02:28 AM
The 308 is a fine round and shot from an M1A is fine, if you can afford it.
My inlaws have them and we shoot 500-600yds easy. not a bad choice.

GarandOwner
November 21, 2008, 03:52 AM
Cyborg, most comments are made in jest not to insult you. Clearing up that you are talking about a SHTF/EOTWAWKI scenario and not normal day to day self defense should bring some friendlier answers. When you talk about self defense shots at 200-300 yards without specifying that you are talking about if there is a collapse of civilization, it makes people worry. Sorry if my comment offended you, it was only meant as a joke. besides, you must be OK, your on The High Road ;)

Cyborg
November 21, 2008, 10:06 AM
When you talk about self defense shots at 200-300 yards without specifying that you are talking about if there is a collapse of civilization, it makes people worry. I apologize for inadvertently causing the confusion. Apology acepted.

soggysod
November 21, 2008, 11:16 AM
well to answer the origional post. if you try to have one firearm to cover all situations, you end up with a SPORK works for either great for neither.
in my opinion, for 600-700 bucks, you could get a nice pumpgun, used or new rem 870 mossberg etc etc, you can get pistol grips and all that stuff later if you want. perfect with buckshot for in home defense, with less issue of overpenetration. and for your change you can get a nice bolt rifle ie savage rem etc with a 3x9 scope in .308. shooting fmjs a car would be little resistance well over 500yds. ammo is common, and easily obtainable cheap. if your guy on the water tower is somewhat well concealed, he wont have any problem pickin off 5 shots reloading and on and on.
keep in mind he is likely to be up against folks with pistols or carbines with open sights at best.
i agree with previous posters good luck claiming self defense, but im just giving my answer to the question.
hopefully this is just asking for the poo hitting the fan situation!

oh and with the 6-700 bucks you can get a fair chunk of ammo for both!

soggysod

Bubba613
November 21, 2008, 11:26 AM
You need a Quad50 with sand bag emplacements. Good to 1k yards and will take out any vehicle. Don't forget extra ammo and reloading supplies because you wont be able to buy any more. Also you will need to stock supplies for the next 50 years, and dont forget the toothpaste.

Cyborg
November 21, 2008, 12:30 PM
You need a Quad50 with sand bag emplacements. Good to 1k yards and will take out any vehicle.I'm not interested in taking out vehicles, only the drivers/occupants. I would expect the vehicles themselves - especially engine and running gear components - to be too valuable. If you have a working battery and a source of torque an automobile alternator can serve nicely as a generator of electrical power.

Never had a chance to play with a Ma Duce (my son tells me they do nasty things to camels ;) ) much less a quad 50. My dad was a gunner's mate on the USS Boxer (CV-21) but he helped man a 20 mike mike AA battery.

I did get a chance to handle (fondle?) a couple of Barrett .50s at a local gun shop. Ronny Barret is an artist. I would NOT want to be on the receiving end of a .50, though.

If the SHTF, I expect the greatest threat to be from armed marauder gangs. BTW, it would NOT be me on the wind turbine tower. I don't see well enough for that any more. Probably be my son or even eldest grandson. Grandson is showing signs of having inherited his father's facility with firearms. My son is adopted so he did not get that ability from me. I do OK but my son shoots mistletoe our of mosquite trees in the wind with a 9mm.

Again, this is all in a SHTF/EOTWAWKI scenario.

gvnwst
November 21, 2008, 12:39 PM
If you want to 'take out' drivers, especially at range, you will need to be the worlds best shooter, or have a HMG in your upstairs window. Taking out the tires/engine block (.50BMG needed:evil:) and THEN the occupants may be a better stragity. Basically, a .223 AR, a .308 AR-10 or a .308 boltie is minimum. Or a 7.62 AK, don't rule those out just yet. How much can you spend? I prefer ARs myself, but it is a matter of ipion once you get a budget and cartridge decided on.

Art Eatman
November 21, 2008, 01:17 PM
Messin' with vehicles, I'd pick most any .30 over a .223.

30 mph is 44 feet per second. At around a hundred yards, I've found that if you have Bambi running across, holding the crosshairs about three feet in front of his nose does bad things to his neck.

Cars are bigger than Bambi. If a car is doing 60 at 200 yards, hold about 18 feet in front of where you want to hit. The bullet travel time is roughly 0.2 to 0.25-ish seconds. 0,.2 times 88 ft/sec = 17.6 feet.

Me, I'd go for the area around the carburetor or fuel injection. Makes for a stationary target, which is then the proverbial piece of cake.

Y'know what they call people on towers? Targets.

Barker45
November 21, 2008, 10:59 PM
Cyborg,
Welcome to THR!!! It's a wealth of information (sometimes too much) :). I really liked your question and understand your problem. Many years ago I was asking the same questions and answered them by buying a lot of different assault rifles (ARs, AKs, an FN FAL and many others). I kept my Colt AR and My bulgarian AKs but also went into a different direction...."the general purpose rifle." A GP rifle is simple, rugged, accurate and can be used for many different roles (hunting, fighting, plinking, etc.) Do a search on "scout rifles" and spend some time thining about the scout and other general purpose rifles.

Here is my short-list for what it is worth:

General Purpose (hunting and "fighting"):
Marlin 1894C .357 Mag -couple with a good revolver is just the ticket!
Marlin 336 30-30
Remmington 660 in 308- compact scope and open sights..shoots .75MOA!
Ruger frontier rifle (if you can mount some back-up sites)
Remington 870 12ga

End of the World- Fighting limited hunting:
Bulgarian AK 7.62X39- just about any AK will do but the Bulgarians are the BEST
FN FAL (Imbel) 7.62 NATO
M1A1 7.62NATO
AR 5.56NATO
Remington 870 12ga
Final thoughts: I think a good Marlin levergun in either .357mag or 30-30 would be the ticket for you. It's down-right un-American and (God forbid) un-Texan to be without a good levergun. They are great for hunting, plinking, and FIGHTING if/when the sitution arrises and best of all they are inexpensive and do not scare the sheeple! I lean towards a Marlin 1894c in .357 with a good wheel-gun in the same caliber. The later also makes a great survival combo. Just my opinion.

Frog48
November 21, 2008, 11:24 PM
As I said in the post immediately above your question:

No worries, I saw it. Just thought I'd express my thoughts anyway. :D

usmcforlifeiam
November 22, 2008, 12:59 AM
All great rifles but i think for home defense 12ga Make FN model slp mark1 semi-auto with extreme shock frangible slug,It will fragment in soft tissue.

black_powder_Rob
November 22, 2008, 04:21 AM
don't forget about a mini 14, the 580's have improved accuracy and are a little cheaper than the AR's. (they can shoot both 5.56 and 223) both will go through car doors and can reach out to 2-300yards. just one more option. Good luck with your choice.

P.S. I also second the scout rifle idea.;)

EdLaver
November 22, 2008, 06:51 AM
If you are looking for a reliable semi-auto in .308 and a reliable pistol-caliber carbine both at very reasonable prices, accurate, and dependable

My response is very simple...

SAIGA .308
BERETTA STORM 9mm

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