The Winchester Model 70


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Shawnee
November 19, 2008, 09:16 AM
"Back in the day..." when Jack O'Conner was on The Throne - the model 70 was widely considered (or at least spoken of) as the Holy Grail of affordable hunting rifles. At least prior to 1964.

It is a telling thing, I think, that in the current thread about "The Most Reliable Rifle", the Winchester model 70 was mentioned only three times and two of the three "mentions" were just in passing. Also, if you'll notice... the model 70 rarely gets mentioned in ANY of the threads here on the Rifle Forum.

That raises a couple 21st Century questions...

1. How many of you/we THR trigger jerks have actually gone looking for/at model 70s when we have been considering the purchase of a(nother) rifle ?
I really haven't and am guessing that many have not.

2. Of the model 70 editions that have been brought out since 1964 - have there been any that really manages to match the quality of the ubiquitous Remington model 700? If so, which models are they and what years were they produced ?

3. Setting aside the BS evaluations applied to model 70s by the knucklehead gun show dealers - if you were looking at a model 700 and a model 70 and could buy either for the same price - which would you buy and why ?

:confused:

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lonegunman
November 19, 2008, 09:27 AM
I would not bother with ANY model 70 that was not a "classic" pre-64 type with a Mauser type extractor. In their last few years they made many "classic" rifles that are awesome. I own two of them and enjoy them both.

Model 70's are easily as accurate and well built as anything Remington makes. The problem is that Remington stayed in the game and made decent models available in every caliber you can imagine.

Winchester checked out of the accurate, competitive shooting market thirty years ago. They checked out of the quality hunting rifle market when they went to their cheesy post 64 products. They made "custom shop" type products but they marketed them poorly and Remington simply passed them by.

The Army Marksmanship Unit still uses quite a few model 70 actions on match rifles and they win nearly everything worth winning in the competitive shooting world.

BornAgainBullseye
November 19, 2008, 09:39 AM
Yes I look for them, but cry when I see the pricetag. So I stick with my mausers, and mabye change one up a bit. wallah new gun.

jbech123
November 19, 2008, 10:17 AM
I own mostly model 700's. That said, For me personally, what the model 70 brings is the CRF. I see no reason to go with a 70 that doesn't have that. I do like the looks of the model 70 featherweight, and have threatened to get one for awhile now, but IMHO they are overpriced, and since it is not something I need, my threats have been idle ones.

IndianaBoy
November 19, 2008, 10:31 AM
I own a push feed model 70. It is an accurate rifle with a fantastic trigger from the factory. I shot a doe with it this Saturday.

It doesn't feed nearly as smoothly as my mauser or my ruger.

I don't see that there would be any advantage to switching to a 700. If I weren't somewhat attached to the rifle (it was the first gun I bought for myself) I would try to trade it for a controlled round feed model 70... Or even a ruger m77.

Horsemany
November 19, 2008, 11:26 AM
Great thread Shawnee. I've noticed a huge trend away from the classics in the last few years. I can remember a few years ago there were a LOT more threads about pre-64's and other classics. Now I'm surprised how many members ask "what's a pre-64?". IMO the pre-64's are valuable not only for the design attributes already mentioned, but for the quality of construction, fit & finish that we'll never see again in production guns. What most folks forget when they see an old pre-64 is; it's got 50 years of wear and tear on it. If we could see a pre-64 just as it came from the factory they are stunning compared to today's junk. I'll try to post pics of my 1950 Supergrade later. Anyone who's ever handled a M70 made in the 40's or 50's that was in good condition probably isn't asking "what's the big deal with M70's?".

Gordon
November 19, 2008, 11:43 AM
I have my first deer rifle a 1953 (it was used when I got it in 1963) .270 Model 70 with a Unertl 4x scope in Buhler mounts and it is still good to go and in decent shape. It shoots 1.5" 100 yard groups with good ammo. My 1955 30-06 has a 1.75-6x Leupold in Warne detach mounts and shoots with the same kind of accuracy. It was my back up rifle for anything. My 1959 .243 Featherweight has a 2-7 Leupold in Gentry mounts and still gets shot quite a bit at local game. It is a MOA rifle. My 1961 .264 has a larger 2.5-10x Vari x 3 , is a sub MOA rifle with the right ammo, and has shot a few antelope and goats which I reserve it for. My 1999 or so CRF staiinless Ultimate model 70 is a very smooth rig . I adjusted the trigger to 2 pounds and it is in .270 WSM and it shoots under MOA groups with Federal 150 grain Nosler Partitions. I like it , it is my regular hunting gun up to elk. I took it to Africa this year and shot 6 species with it with 1 shot kills, whats NOT to like?

db_tanker
November 19, 2008, 11:56 AM
I have had the pleasure to shoot several different M-70's.

To be honest, I group them in with Mausers. Same action style with a few differences. At least the Pre-64 and Classic models.

I have shot the CRF and PF models and they both felt and acted as a rifle should. Solid and well built IMO.

The newest version of these wonderful rifles however I have only seen reviews about and not laid eyes upon in the flesh so I refuse to comment about...only to say that the gun-rag writers are fawning over them as if they are the second coming...go figure...


as for the final question...comparing both the 700 and 70 together and had the money for either AND they had it chambered in the caliber I was looking for...

I really don't know. rifles are much like people...each has its own personality...previous experience would have me lean towards a M-70, but again, I cannot say definitively.

NOW older rifles? No question. A M-70 would have a place in my gun cabinet before any other rifle. And wth the Schnabel forend.

D

USSR
November 19, 2008, 01:48 PM
Shawnee,

LOL, that's what I like about you. You have a preconcieved notion about something (whether it is right, wrong, or even makes sense), and then you word your questions in such a way as to suggest the response you would like to see.

"Back in the day..." when Jack O'Conner was on The Throne - the model 70 was widely considered (or at least spoken of) as the Holy Grail of affordable hunting rifles. At least prior to 1964.

It is a telling thing, I think, that in the current thread about "The Most Reliable Rifle", the Winchester model 70 was mentioned only three times and two of the three "mentions" were just in passing. Also, if you'll notice... the model 70 rarely gets mentioned in ANY of the threads here on the Rifle Forum.

That raises a couple 21st Century questions...

1. How many of you/we THR trigger jerks have actually gone looking for/at model 70s when we have been considering the purchase of a(nother) rifle ?
I really haven't and am guessing that many have not.

2. Of the model 70 editions that have been brought out since 1964 - have there been any that really manages to match the quality of the ubiquitous Remington model 700? If so, which models are they and what years were they produced ?

3. Setting aside the BS evaluations applied to model 70s by the knucklehead gun show dealers - if you were looking at a model 700 and a model 70 and could buy either for the same price - which would you buy and why ?

But, to play your game:

1. I am always looking for Model 70's. All my boltguns are Model 70's or are built on a Model 70 action, except for my Smith-Corona 03-A3 and a lonely Sako. They are also all in your hated .30-06 cartridge, except for my .308 FN SPR (Model 70 CRF action) Tactical Rifle and my Terry Cross built 6.5x55 Match Rifle (a Model 70 CRF action).

2. My 1968 built Winchester Match Rifle in, ho-hum, .30-06, seems to be pretty well built.

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/Win70marksman1.jpg

But Golly Gee, "the ubiquitous Remington model 700?", I don't know if ANYTHING can match that.:rolleyes:

3. Obviously, I would buy any Winchester Model 70 over the "ubiquitous Remington model 700". The reasons are many. The Model 70's trigger is better, the safety is better, the extractor is better, the bolt handle is better, and the receiver is stiffer.

But, hey, this is just MHO. Now, I am curious as to exactly what the difference is between the "BS evaluations applied to model 70s by the knucklehead gun show dealers", and the guys with agendas who post leading threads?:D

Don

IndianaBoy
November 19, 2008, 02:07 PM
At least he didn't try to assert that anyone who shoots anything larger than a quarter bore does so out of machismo. Not yet anyways. He did finally quit creating silly nicknames for the 30-06. But what do I know? I'm a non-thinker!

Cover Dog
November 19, 2008, 02:10 PM
My only Winchester Mdl. 70 was purchased about 7-8 yrs ago. It came out of their custom shop. It's all stainless and chambered in 358STA. It was purchased for use on large bears but it has only been on elk hunts so far.

After receiving the gun, I shipped it to have an Answer brake installed and upon return it went to McMillan for one of their stocks.

It's heavy, as it needs to be, but it will shoot 250gr. Nosler Partitions into .5 MOA all day. I have been using 250gr. Swift A-Frames which it shoots at .990 MOA and at 3060fps it gererates 5200lbft of energy.

Anyone else shoot a 358STA???

freonr22
November 19, 2008, 02:27 PM
i dont have a model 70, but a model 54, and there is almost no kick, ive had old mausers, gustof, and husqvarna, and the fell and smoothness of all 3 of these is superlative to the rifles of modern day ive handled. and thoughts on the m54 vs model 70?

Cohibra45
November 19, 2008, 03:05 PM
About 8 years ago, I bought a Pre-64 model 70. I believe it was made around 1954 and I really like it. It is a lot heavier than the Husky that I got from my brother, but it will still be the last to leave the stable if I decide to sell any guns!!!!!

BTW, it is the 'standard' not featherweight and has a Monte Carlo stock with hand checkering. I installed a Leupold LPS 1.5-6x scope and it shoots like a 'house a fire'!!!!!!:D:D:D

Cohibra45
November 19, 2008, 03:10 PM
I just want to add, if anyone is even thinking about purchasing one, then by all means go ahead if you can swing it!! They are only increasing in value and are not coming down!!!

I believe I paid $750 8 years ago, but mine is around 95% and still looks like it was handed down by my father...just a couple handling marks that shows it was used like all great hunting rifles are suppose to look!!!:cool:

SlamFire1
November 19, 2008, 04:08 PM
The Model 70's trigger is better, the safety is better, the extractor is better, the bolt handle is better, and the receiver is stiffer.

Agree.


I have a pre 64, post 64 push feed, and a couple of short action classics. Three of these are target rifles.

The M70 is a smooth and slick action.

I recently purchased a Patrol Bolt rifle.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/M70%20pics/FNfulllengthDSCN8751.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/M70%20pics/FNPatrolRiflemarkingsDSCN8753.jpg

Talked to FN, turns out these "Patrol Bolt Rifles" were some of the last rifles finished at New Haven Conn.

And mine has the older M70 trigger. Per FN, it will accept drop in triggers.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/M70%20pics/FNtriggermechanismadjustedbrightnes.jpg

I would say my M70 classic in 6.5*55 matches the quality of my M700 Classic Series in 6.5 *55. The M700 is a great action, but I prefer a M70. And I think the 30-06 is a great round, shot this with a M98 Match rifle in 30-06. ( I shot a 199 with the thing, but did not blow out the center, this target just looks more impressive)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Targets/M98168Sierra570WC852198-12XReduced.jpg

The pre64's I have looked at showed a lot of tooling marks. I confirmed with a club gray beard, who is a pre 64 collector, the old pre 64's had their own issues. The first one he bought, new, in the 50's, would not feed rounds.

doctorxring
November 19, 2008, 04:26 PM
.


1. I have 2 pre-64 M70's and one more on the way. These are very
fine rifles and always will be.

2. I believe the XTR series of the post-64 M70 are as fine as any M700.
The 3 position safety is superior to anything Remington has produced.
The M70 trigger is excellent, but the Remington is also very good.
Both have to be adjusted post-factory to produce a good release.
The push feed M70 is plainly an excellent action.

3. As far as the "which I would buy" I have really no declarative "this
or that" statement. I own both and use both. I would have to say
that over the years I have preferred the M70's for hunting and the M700
for target rifles. This probably has more to do with the aftermarket
in respect to the M700.



By the way, Jack O'Connor is still "on the throne" for many hunters and shooters, me included. So tread carefully around that name. He used
both, but had a fondness for the M70.


best, dxr

.

Shawnee
November 19, 2008, 05:46 PM
Stand down, DrXring... O'Conner and Clapton are sacred words to me too.

I didn't start this thread to bash the 70 no matter what those two troll-weenies bray from the porch.

As I said in the OP - the 70 seems very seldom mentioned any more and I wondered if any of the post-64 versions are worth their keep. And that's because if they are sweet I might just buy one as sort of a toast to Jack.

:cool:

Horsemany
November 19, 2008, 06:07 PM
I am bashfully admitting I cannot figure out how to get my pictures under the kb limitations to list them.:(

mothernatureson
November 19, 2008, 06:36 PM
Ive got a push feed one in 06 that is a nice solid rifle. Built in the mid 80s with a blind magazine.I did handle one of the new model 70s made by FN. Nice rifle, seems well built and good wood. Nine hundred bucks, but it had the schnable forend. My rifle is used for beer hunting, and would never get rid of it. Just my opinion.

mothernatureson

DRYHUMOR
November 19, 2008, 06:43 PM
I've never had or shot a pre 64 M70.

That said, I have had many M70's and R700's come and go through the years. Mostly all good.

But I still gravitate back to the M70's, right now I have 4 of them, 2 push feeds and 2 classics.

I have a Laredo put out in '97, classic action, damn good shooter. I have flirted with the idea of selling it. But can't bring myself to do it. In fact, it would have to be hard times before I would part with any of them. The very last would be a sweet M70 Featherweight in .257 Roberts.

Which would I buy? It's not as simple as one brand or the other. It's the caliber, configuration, stock, feel, that does it. ANY gun you look at, and then know, "that's the one" is the one I look hardest at.

Remington just doesn't have anything right now that trips my trigger. Some of the older C Grade or Custom shop guns though...

Shawnee
November 19, 2008, 06:54 PM
Horsemany...

If your photo files are jpgs any photo file 600 pixels by 600 pixels (or smaller) should post without problems.

Good Luck !
:cool:

Shawnee
November 19, 2008, 07:00 PM
Soooo Tempting !!! :scrutiny:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=116437710


:cool:

DRYHUMOR
November 19, 2008, 07:05 PM
This one would have been the cake and icing too

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=115894912

Nicest one I've seen in years.

DRYHUMOR
November 19, 2008, 07:08 PM
I've been watching those 375's too. It's a sickness I tell ya.

Zeke/PA
November 19, 2008, 07:43 PM
As far as I'm concerned, there NEVER was nor will there EVER be a factory rifle to compare with the Pre '64 Winchester Model 70.
My first was a Pre-War .30-'06 that I have owned for almost 50 years.
With this rifle and a 4x Redfield scope I have taken over 30 PA whitetail bucks.
I shoot only reloads and I rarely have to adjust the scope from year to year.
I own four other M 70's.
Another inherited Pre-War '06.
A very fine 1950 era .257 Roberts
A .220 Swift.
A late 50's era .270 winchester.
My hunting Buddy, also the proud owner of a Pre-War. 270. shot a 5 shot/one hole group at 100 yds at sight -in time last year, his rifle topped with a 6x Kollmorgen Optics glass.
Jack O'Conner was without a doubt the dean of outdoor writers.
Those who remember Jack will agree that he was truly a hunters writer having expirenced a wide variety of hunting on all the continents.
A great fan of the .270 Winchester, he stressed shot placement and not the power of the super magnums that were coming on the scene.

MMCSRET
November 19, 2008, 08:11 PM
When I am going thru the used rifle rack anywhere, I look for Winchester M70's first, I don't own a Rem M700 and probably never will. I do however own one Remington 22 rifle from 1950. My M70 appetite will never be fulfilled. I own and use several.

Macmac
November 19, 2008, 08:12 PM
I do... look that is... I saw a left in short magnum, in a Euro full stock. I have forgotten which WSm it was.. next to it was a M-70 in 30-06. A half stock righty gun.

Had that been a lefty full stock in 30-06 it would be mine..

For all I know WSM is King, but I still like the limited loadings one can get for the 30-06....

Coltdriver
November 19, 2008, 08:47 PM
I have a 1949 Model 70 in 30 06. Great rifle.

I too (Go SlamFire1) recently picked up an FN PBR in 300 WSM. It has the CRF and is basically a Model 70. The action drops right into a Model 70 short action stock.

The pre 64 Model 70s are just excellent examples of American craftsmanship that you are not going to see from a factory at an affordable price ever.

There is nothing particularly magic about them. They are just great rifles. Most people I have talked with that own them say they get moa groups but nothing like one hole at some insane yardage. Just good accurate reliable shooting.

The truth is the classics are becoming harder and harder to find and there are plenty of first class rifles available that can be use and abused while not leaving you feeling bad. You should not have to worry about devaluing your rifle by using it and in many ways that makes the classics less desirable. I have no such problem with my Model 70 but its easy to imagine.

Shawnee
November 19, 2008, 08:48 PM
Lots of good posts so far but I may not have asked clear questions in the OP. So I'll "rewind/restart" here.

The model 70 market is a quagmire. Someone in their 20s, let's say,... or someone who hasn't paid much attention to Winchester at all, might well not realize all the history (good and bad), or that there are plenty of less-than-ethical dealers around who will lie about what they have and rip people off.

So suppose that person came to you and said they wanted to try to buy a used model 70 to hunt deer with and they didn't particularly care if it was "pre-64", and they could spend less than $901 for the rifle without sights.
Further they tell you they have no caliber preference as long as it will kill deer.

Now you know on their shopping trips they are going to see several different models - XTR, featherweights, classics, yadda, yadda, yadda. And they are going to meet dealers/sellers who may, or may not, have any Integrity.

So what models with what features would you tell them to look for ?

And what models and features would you tell them to avoid ?

Please - NO caliber dissertations. It's about The Rifle.


How would you instruct the newbie to separate the wheat from the chaff in the model 70 market ?


Thanks All !
:cool:

DRYHUMOR
November 19, 2008, 09:02 PM
M70

The safety. 3 position, allows the rifle to be unloaded in a safe manner.

The trigger. Easy to adjust, holds it's setting consistantly.

I won't get into push feed vs control feed. Both the M70 and 700 have push feed. M70's with control feed "classics" are a definite plus when the nice lion is charging you. You don't have to wonder if your second round was picked up and thrown home.

M70's mostly have nicer stocks. :D

dmazur
November 19, 2008, 09:22 PM
I couldn't find a used M70 in .30-06 with a target barrel, so I settled for a MRC 1999 barreled action in an Accurate Innovations stock. I've heard of varying quality problems with MRC, but the one I have is terrific.

Trigger is M70 dimensions, and the action can accept aftermarket triggers designed for the M70. The one I have can be adjusted to a clean break at 2-1/2 lbs, so I haven't seen the need for a Timney.

The action is drilled & tapped for scope mount bases that are designed for the M70, too.

MRC adjusted the magazine lips for reliable feeding, too. The cartridges just aim at the center of the chamber and go right in. No rattling or banged up bullet points.

So, yes, I went a considerable distance to try to get a M70. Or something close, anyway. I wanted the M70 trigger, the 3-position safety and the claw extractor.

To answer the question about what I'd tell a newcomer to watch for -

1. Some actions use a floating lug assembly and this can be pinned to the bolt. If the pin breaks, the bolt handle will turn down but the lugs didn't move. This design is fine as long as the quality control is there.

2. Some triggers are horrible, and the manufacturers have made them non-adjustable. Apparently if you change the trigger, then anything that occurs later isn't their fault. Apparently Timney et al haven't been sued blind, yet. If you have your eye set on one of these rifles, budget for a new trigger.

3. Some insist on "packages" which include a worthless scope. Pretend the scope isn't there, as you are going to have to buy a decent scope real soon.

4. Unless it's a low-recoil caliber (varmint for example), pay attention to the recoil pad. Most manufacturers put some kind of hard rubber attempt on the stock, but it isn't going to work like a Limbsaver or a Decelerator. Make sure the stock can be cut to accept a decent recoil pad, or that there is a pre-cut available to fit the synthetic stock.

5. Some manufacturers use a piece of cheap plastic for their stainless/synthetic stock models. These stocks aren't dimensionally stable and can provide horrible accuracy. There is no reason to attempt to bed the action in such a stock. All it can offer is that it won't rot. If the rifle you're looking at has such a thing, budget for a new stock.

In other words, you get what you pay for. Newcomers aren't "up" on some of these things, and the problems they can cause. The manufacturers get away with it because the rifles sell. Necessary experience seems to be gained after the sale, and after a couple of hunting seasons.

Another problem is, many newcomers are not in a "learning" mode. They are in the "I know all I need to know" mode, and are not very receptive to this type of material.

Witness the number of "what's the best rifle I can buy that is accurate to 700 yds and doesn't cost more than $500" threads. :)

Horsemany
November 19, 2008, 09:46 PM
Here's the pics of my Supergrade. 1950 likely unfired with papers/hang tags in 30-06.

DRYHUMOR
November 19, 2008, 10:09 PM
Did I mention nice stocks?

Featherweight .257 Roberts, Supergrade 7mm Remington

Horsemany
November 19, 2008, 10:17 PM
Very nice Dryhumor. :what:

DRYHUMOR
November 19, 2008, 10:32 PM
Horsemany,

Thanks, those were "that's the one" rifles.

USSR
November 19, 2008, 10:44 PM
Actually, I'd tell "Someone in their 20s" to stay away from a Remington Model 710 - Far, far away. A Winchester Model 70 is a Winchester Model 70. My Jack Krieger built .30-06 Tactical Rifle started life as a Winchester Model 70 Ranger - the cheapest Model 70 made at that time.

Don (Shawnee's troll-weenie nemesis) :D

BENELLIMONTE
November 19, 2008, 10:45 PM
I own the Classic Sporter in 30-06. Very well done rifle except for the magazine opening up at inoportune times.

oregonhunter
November 19, 2008, 11:35 PM
I love the model 70 and probably will convert my stable of bolt actions to model 70's. I have 2 rugers that I got for the "right" price wich I am in the process of getting rid of.

I currently own a model 70 featherweight in 30-06 and have never found a better handling rifle. I have also noticed that if you talk to the old timers you will find that the model 70 is king.

Shawnee
November 19, 2008, 11:36 PM
C'mon, Dudes...

If you've got a sweeet model 70 (or three) let's see some pics !


DryHumor - I'll give you $500 cash for that .257 and you won't even have to take the scope off it ! :D


:cool:

oregonhunter
November 19, 2008, 11:40 PM
bipod was just for the picture

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g168/liftedf150/DSC00035.jpg

Edit: I am in the process of picking up a model 70 in 300 win mag and dumping my ruger. Hopefully will have pics of the 300 tommorow.

Gordon
November 20, 2008, 12:08 AM
Here's the (.375a H&H) Remington 700 and the Winchester Stainless Ultimate .270 WSM that I took to Africa a few months back. The .270WSM was a hit! I used the .375 ony on Gems Bok and Blue Wildebeast as they are bigger thasn Elk and more dangerous if wounded!Surprisingly these rifles handle very much alike ,if you closed your eyes you couldn't easily tell the difference when running the bolt. You COULD tell when it went off , of course.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/practicalstuff025.jpg

Coltdriver
November 20, 2008, 12:12 AM
When I went looking I took a list of the serial numbers. I was not going to take anything less than a pre 64. I just stumbled on to the one I picked up but when I checked the serial number I could not believe it.

As to advice, you have to do your own home work. If you are looking for a pre 64 then any one of them will do but you have to be able to check out a rifle.

On the other hand if you are looking to spend less then some judicious shopping for a CRF is in order.

I have found the best formula is cash in hand and make haste slowly. There are great deals to be found. I picked up mine about four years ago for under $500.

I am no collector and I just wanted it to hunt with so I took the original stock off, added the pad, sanded it down and resealed it. I have been roundly condemned for this by several people. Heres a pic with a Bausch and Lomb 3200 on it.

Gordon
November 20, 2008, 12:12 AM
Here's a couple of the older pre 64's a while back. 30-06 top, .270 bottom
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/practicalstuff017.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/practicalstuff015.jpg

doctorxring
November 20, 2008, 12:27 AM
.


Sorry about that Shawnee...

I see you are "in the family" now.

:)

Push feed M70's are great rifles. I shot my first really nice whitetail buck
with a push feed M70 in 30-06. It was a friend of mines rifle. I borrowed
it from him on that hunt as the scope on my pre-64 went tits up. It's a
great rifle and I've tried to buy it from him a number of times. He knows
a good thing and won't part with it.

The only PF M70's I would steer clear of are the first ones that did not
have the groove cut in the bolt head to reduce binding.

I see the push feed M70 action as a thorough breed design.
A lot of the stocks they came in did not appeal to me, but the action
is a great one.

I was a little surprised to see FN abandon the M70 trigger design, but
I have not examined the new trigger so I withhold judgement on it.

Just my $0.02 but I see the control feed/push feed "arguement" as a
mostly much ado about nada for rifle weenies.

If you are going after dangerous game, yeah, why not. But I will tell
you a lot of people that must have a CRF action do not even
know what that really means. They have just bought in to the hype.

The M70 is a superb action, both PF and CRF.

I think the pre-64 has more collector appeal, but that is axiomatic.
But a lot of that has to do with romance, not superiority.


dxr


.
Stand down, DrXring... O'Conner and Clapton are sacred words to me too.

I didn't start this thread to bash the 70 no matter what those two troll-weenies bray from the porch.

As I said in the OP - the 70 seems very seldom mentioned any more and I wondered if any of the post-64 versions are worth their keep. And that's because if they are sweet I might just buy one as sort of a toast to Jack.

P-32
November 20, 2008, 02:11 AM
I have a pre 64 Mdl 70 in 300 H&H which is about 98% built in 59. Lovely rifle. My favorite hunting rifle though is a push feed Feather Weight XTR in '06. Lovely rifle, easy to carry in the field and is a shooter. The push feeds bolt is slicker than the pre 64's or classic's IMHO. I don't care the bullet will fall out of the push feed if I'm running the bolt while I'm upside down......

To me the 700's feel a bit clunky compared to a Mdl 70. But then again no shot gun sounds as nice as a Mdl 12 being racked either.

Shawnee
November 20, 2008, 02:25 AM
No problem DoctorXring. I agree with you - the CRF/PF issue isn't a biggie for me and I wouldn't be willing to pay a ton of extra dollars just to say I had a "pre-64".

Here is another on Gunbroker that might be a good buy. I'm not too keen on buying used scopes though.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=116517308

:cool:

IndianaBoy
November 20, 2008, 02:31 AM
I'm just wondering how a bunch of non-thinkers at remington, savage, fn, browning and tikka are still so foolish as to not chamber every rifle in 243.


We all know that anything else would be machismo!!!

DRYHUMOR
November 20, 2008, 06:16 AM
Shawnee,

WOW, 500.00. :rolleyes: Hmmmmm, well.... nope :neener:

I will say this about the M70's though. Even though I've got a couple with nice stocks, I do see a lot out there with butt ugly, cheap looking, synthetic ones.

And those rifles are priced about as right as one would ever hope for.

I've seen them from 250.00 to 400.00. When you pause to think about what you are getting for that, those are great prices.

That's another difference in the two. I was never a big fan of Winchesters' synthetic stocks. The only ones I liked were the varmint style, and HSP built a lot (or all) of those.

R700's (older) synthetics, in the varmint style vary a bit, each just a hair different- mil spec (R5), sendero, LTR, PSS. They have a little different contour, color variation, weight. Drop an LTR into a mil spec stock it has a completely different feel and balance to it. Same with a sendero and PSS switching back and forth.

Shawnee
November 20, 2008, 10:12 AM
Hey DryHumor... (or any 70 buff)

Do you recognize which model this one is ?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=116517308


Specfically I'd like to know if it is a model from the 60s that has that cruddy pressed-in so-called "checkering" that is really just a "negative" of real cut checkering.

:confused:

SlamFire1
November 20, 2008, 10:59 AM
Just my $0.02 but I see the control feed/push feed "arguement" as a
mostly much ado about nada for rifle weenies.

Totally agree. While I prefer the claw extractor, it is partially on looks, mostly because I can extract a round into my hand without having some spring loaded ejector fling the thing across the table. A claw extractor will last forever if you feed every round from the magazine. If not, I expect it will last as long as a push feed extractor.

I will mention that feed geometry is more critical with a M70 cone breech/claw extractor than a M70 push feed. On the right of the chamber is a claw extractor cut out. There is maybe a couple hundredth's of material between the chamber and the cut out. Feeding has to be perfect or the nose of the bullet gets fed into that extractor cut.

It happened to me with a dimensionally out of tolerance classic M70. It was an early production action.


I don't care the bullet will fall out of the push feed if I'm running the bolt while I'm upside down......

In my push feed actions, such a thing won't happen. This concern was created by marketing departments. I have not tried it in my M700 6.5 Swede, that rifle has a 30-06 length magazine box, but in every other push feed I own, they will feed rounds from the magazine to the chamber, and do it up side down.

I know the M16, M1, M14, M1 carbine, FN, G3/HK91, are all push feed mechanisms. Most semi auto military pistols are push feed. These arms have been proven in combat with push feed extractors.

Still when it comes to manually operated bolt rifles, I prefer the Mauser 98 claw extractor.

Horsemany
November 20, 2008, 11:04 AM
Shawnee

That is NOT one of the 64'-69' guns everyone despises. It's actually a pretty good gun. A friend of mine has one in 300 win mag he's been hunting with for years. This gun you mentioned will have a smooth push feed bolt. I'd keep my eyes open for pre 64's if I wanted a M70. You know a lot of the older collectors who appreciate pre64's are not with us anymore. Whenever that starts happening prices drop. Remember model T's? They used to be 3x as valuable as they are now. Until those who had one when they were a kid started passing away. In the next 5 years I'd expect to see some deals on pre 64's, especially with most young shooters drooling over the characterless AR's and AK's(and I carried an M16 in the service I know exactly what they can do).

Shawnee
November 20, 2008, 11:44 AM
Thanks Horsemany !!!

That's an interesting observation about the "die-out"" of die-hard pre-64 fans ! I'll have to watch the market a bit closer !

Thanks again !:)

:cool:

Jimfern
November 20, 2008, 12:09 PM
I have a Model 70 in 458 Winchester Mag that I enjoy. It's an XTR series and quite frankly when I was looking for the 458, I would have just as easily chosen a Remington 700, Ruger M77 or some other brand.

I just happened on a great deal on the Winchester. They all seem to be pretty competitive in terms of what you get for your $.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 20, 2008, 12:17 PM
1. How many of you/we THR trigger jerks have actually gone looking for/at model 70s when we have been considering the purchase of a(nother) rifle ?
I really haven't and am guessing that many have not.

I haven't gone looking for a Win 70 (due to better values in CZs, Howas, Savage, etc.), but one caught my eye, due to the stock config and caliber - it was a Win featherweight in 6.5x55 swede - love the look of that stock. Shoulda bought it since it was at the end of the old production, but was in a money crunch at the time and couldn't justify it. Now they're gone with USRAC closing and I seriously doubt they'll ever bring back a featherweight in 6.5x55.

2. Of the model 70 editions that have been brought out since 1964 - have there been any that really manages to match the quality of the ubiquitous Remington model 700? If so, which models are they and what years were they produced ?

I just don't know the answer to that - I think it probably depends on the year(s) of the 700s in question to compare them to, among other things. Many say that current production Rems have QC slipping - I personally have not seen evidence of that yet, but that doesn't mean it's not happening.

3. Setting aside the BS evaluations applied to model 70s by the knucklehead gun show dealers - if you were looking at a model 700 and a model 70 and could buy either for the same price - which would you buy and why ?

I would buy a Remington, and you're really gonna laugh at my reasons:

1. Rem put the smack down on Zumbo. I went out and brought a brand new 1187 when they did that.

2. When I go to www.winchester.com , it gives me a site selling ammo ONLY. So I have to fiddle around to figure out that Winchester GUNS are found only at a mickey mouse URL - www.winchesterguns.com - wth? Maybe other reasons too, but in a tiebreaker, Rem wins.... But in fact, now the Win 70s are inexplicably higher priced than they used to be, and higher than apples to apples Rem counterpart, IINM.

USSR
November 20, 2008, 12:43 PM
...one caught my eye, due to the stock config and caliber - it was a Win featherweight in 6.5x55 swede...

I bought a used M70 Classic Featherweight in 6.5x55 to use for a donor action for my 6.5x55 Match Rifle. I sold the stock, but still have the barrel (less than 100 rounds down it) if anyone has a hankering for it.

Don

Andrew Wyatt
November 20, 2008, 01:20 PM
The only reasons i ended up with a 700 for my go to bolt gun were:

1. no left hand short actions.

2. no left hand short actions

3. i got a great deal on an LTR.

Shawnee
November 20, 2008, 01:28 PM
Hi Sauce...

:what: Oh Man ! A good model 70 in the Swede -

How Sweet THAT would be ! :D



:cool:

Shawnee
November 20, 2008, 02:15 PM
:confused:


Anyone know what year the "G" series serial numbers began on the model 70 ?

:confused:

DRYHUMOR
November 20, 2008, 07:18 PM
Shawnee,

I've had that serial info some where... I asked some of these questions myself. I had to go back and look at it.


http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=379025


There is a lot of conflicting info here and there.

The G prefix started at a high number (a given), and continued on the push feed models (assumption). These were what was being built during the takeover. The very last push feed rifles out the door had GXXXXXXX, I've seen numbers in the 2 million range. I had a short mag that had a similar serial. This is what I have seen that seems to make sense.

In 1994, Winchester re introduced the pre 64 action and called it a "classic". These G prefix guns appear to start low in serial and work up. The highest number I've seen personally in a "classic" is G187000 (approximately), I'm sure there are higher serials out there. But, these serials still don't make a lot of sense. Custom shop numbers, unused numbers.

Had me :banghead: doing this.

I have seen photos of very low G number guns, like 1 or 2 or 3 digit low.

There is a regular M70 "classic" action, in the 1994 catalog with a G and 3 digits. The rifle in my previous post (SG) is a G and 5 digit.

I don't think anyone has re written a follow up book to the Winchester book R L Wilson put out in the early '90's. It's damn confusing to figure out EXACTLY what serial began and ended when.

Since Winchester is back in business... help may be only a phone call away... Maybe

Geno
November 20, 2008, 08:00 PM
As many of you have probably noted, I am really picky about my firearms' fit. Some would say too picky, but for me, a rifle fits right and thus shoots right, or it fits wrong, and shoots wrong. The right or wrong has more to do with stocks' ergonomics than anything else. I have to be able to weld my cheek to the stock, or I simply cannot fire consistently accurate groups. Too, I want to be able to fire without getting black and blue...literally.

The classic stock design kills me. I had a 1980s push-feed model 70 in .30-06 that had a horrid barrel, and horrid fit. It took exponentially longer to clean the barrel, than to shoot it to the point that the fouling requiring a cleaning. Worst of all it fired minute of barn wall. I also had a Classic model 70 in .308 Win that beat the Hades out of my cheekbone. It was accurate, but literally left me bruised. A friend offered me what I paid, and I took the opportunity to get rid of it. I had the Remington Classic in .338 Win Mag back in 1986ish. It too beat the Hades out of my cheekbone.

For me, the stock fit is nearly everything. To that end, given the Weatherby stocks' cast-off, I seek out Weatherby rifles for big game rifles, and Remington 700s only for varmint rifles.

Doc2005

Drue
November 20, 2008, 11:08 PM
I have two M70s, both in .30-06. The first is a 1975 model that I bought off of the used rack in a local gunshop. I stopped in for some primers and there she was. The second is a 1955 model that I bought at a gunshow.

In answer to the questions in the OP, I had wanted a Model 70 for a while and when the one showed on the rack, I bought it. Later, I was looking for a pre '64 and the one at the gunshow came along.

As to the second question: I have three M700s to compare the 1975 Winchester to, two from the 1970s and one from the early 1980s. I believe that the M70 is equivalent in fit, finish and out-of-the-box accuracy to the Remingtons.

Drue

Shawnee
November 21, 2008, 12:14 AM
:rolleyes:

In knocking around looking at model 70 rifles I've come across a new low in dealer scams to fleece people. Saw a dealer referring to the winchester junkers of the 60s as "Pre-G" models - inferring that being "Pre-G serial number" models makes them more valuable. The guy should be hung.

:cool:

Horsemany
November 21, 2008, 09:52 AM
Gun dealers aren't always the cream of the crop are they?

DPStx
February 5, 2010, 11:48 PM
Sorry about this being an old thread, but I came across it during a google search and it got my attention. Ever since I bought my own 1973 pushfeed, G-serialed Model 70A,.243, (in 1981, I was 14, it was used..) I have loved it.

The Monte Carlo stock design of this era was perfect, and lovely to look at. In my opinion, the "classic" style stock is very plain in comparison and the raised comb with the forward "rake" of this monte carlo backs away from your face during recoil so you don't get beat up. It fits me perfectly, comes right up to the line of sight when mounted. I'm sure that the hand-built rifles of the pre 64's likely had better fit and finish, (though mine looked pretty darn good when I got it, and it was a 70A) but their stock design was not as attractive, they look "frumpy" to me.......even the pre 64 monte carlos...

I will admit that the controlled round feed is cool, it's kind of slick the way the cartridge slides up in front of the bolt and then gets poked into the breech, but when I cycle my old pushfeed rather quickly, the way it usually gets done, that cartridge looks to almost do the same thing. I do believe that for 99% of us, the crf is really unnecessary.

I will also admit that the first post 64 rifles were not very attractive, the stock design was still frumpy but now it had poor fit and impressed checkering. Winchester listened, however, to the complaints and eventually, put the bolt guide ( I read somewhere that this coincided with the appearance of the G in front of the serial, about 1968)on the left locking lug and redesigned the stock into what I think was the prettiest ever. (It kills me that the Winchesters don't continue to use that stock design....)
There were a few other improvements as well....

I liked reading Jack O'connors stuff back in the day and I know that he eventually came to like the post 64M70 after it got fixed, but he and the other gunwriters, I believe, really killed it's popularity. To the degree that it still hasn't recovered. People seemed to bad-mouth the pushfeed action of the M70, then go out and buy a Rem 700, like they didn't know it was the same thing!!!

I'm very glad that the Model 70 lives on, there is class (to me) in the integral locking lug and other features, and I have always thought that the bolt handle of the 70 has the best shape and angle to it. I hope that the M70 regains the market share I believe it deserves, I don't believe it gives up anything to the Remingtons.
http://i348.photobucket.com/albums/q360/DPSTX/IMG_1290.jpg

Bottom rifle is the 1973 Model 70A, the stock is the original piece of wood, though I have put on the forend tip myself and installed a floorplate which came from the later model pushfeed action beneath (which is being turned into a match rifle as we speak)

Top rifle is a custom Win 52 which I built to be a sister to the 70.

DPSTX

surfinUSA
February 6, 2010, 01:20 PM
Damn, another thread back from the dead.

My son has a post 64 , pre-olin, Winchester push feed M70 in 30-06. Its a great gun always fires as it should , never jams or hangs up. It has the three position safety and you couldn't expect better accuracy from an off the shelf hunting rifle.

I read that all of the post 64 guns had hammer forged barrels which is supposed to have made these rifles more consistently accurate (from gun to gun) than the previous rifling technique used which apparently made some M70s super accurate and others mediocore at best.

All I know is that I got a great deal on a fine rifle for my son when he wanted to go deer and hog hunting.

Snakum
February 6, 2010, 07:25 PM
I have or had Model 70s from the USRAC years and have shot a newer FN 70. I have or had older model 700s, as well. My 70s were/are decent rifles and my 7mm mag is a keeper that I am building a custom rifle on. But they aren't in the same league as my older 700s. Remington was king of the hill thru the late 60s, 70s and 80s for a reason. I have a 700 in 30-06 from the laet 70s or so that is the most beautiful gun I own and it will shoot three shots from a cold bore under 1.5" with good factory ammo, which was outstanding accuracy for a 700 from that era.

Today, however, I wouldn't take a new Remington 700 hunting if it were free. They are not the same company they were. Remington has lost the plot on quality and service. At the same time, the new FN 70s are an excellent weapon. Fit and finish is flawless on every one I've seen, they are sturdy and reliable and accurate, too. But they are overpriced in an era when Savage, Weatherby, T/C, and Marlin are making reliable MOA-accurate bolt guns for less than $500. Marlin and Savage are making them for way less than that.

So if I were buying new ... I wouldn't buy a Remington because I don't trust their quality and customer service anymore. And I wouldn't buy a Brownchester because they are overpriced imho. I would buy a Savage, Thompson/Center, or Marlin today.

K.jo
October 21, 2011, 04:06 PM
I love my Winchester M70 Featherweight 257 Roberts. It was a present from my grandpa and I used it for deer hunting mostly. I think it's truly a beautiful gun.

K.jo
October 21, 2011, 04:07 PM
also does anyone know what my m70 257 roberts might be worth?

Fire-4-Effect
October 21, 2011, 05:01 PM
I just got into the pre-64's and I am in love... I purchased the rifle off of gunbroker so was not sure what to expect... My first trip to the range I put the first three shots inside the one ich round bull at 100 yards. The scope was already sighted in.

If I only knew before...

Austin97
October 21, 2011, 05:07 PM
I would get the model 70

Smith357
October 21, 2011, 11:00 PM
Over the years I have owned Winchester M70s, Remington 700s and Commercial FN Mausers all in .30-06. They were all good, and I would choose any of those old rifles over much of the new stuff available. But there is something about the ergonomics of the M70 that make them my personal favorite rifle. It just has a smoothness to the action coupled with a great trigger and positive safety.

Robert
October 21, 2011, 11:04 PM
My next rifle will be a M70 in 375 H&H.

Edit:
Ug I posted in a 3 year old zombie thread. I should know better by now... :banghead:

TexasRifleman
October 21, 2011, 11:36 PM
Posting new and still relevant info in an old thread is fine, especially long ones like this dedicated to a specific model.

Zombie right along there :)

Robert
October 22, 2011, 12:46 PM
Posting new and still relevant info in an old thread is fine, especially long ones like this dedicated to a specific model.

Zombie right along there


Outstanding! Thanks TR.

jim in Anchorage
October 22, 2011, 07:27 PM
The pre-64 70 is a example of fine gunmaking,with no thought given to cheap production. The 700 looks like someone at Remington said "Hey-we can buy bulk thick wall tubing, make a cut here and there, and call it a gun!".

Ridgerunner665
December 5, 2011, 10:52 AM
In light of what TexasRifleman said up there...I'm gonna revive this one again.

I just ordered a new model 70 Ultimate Shadow in 30-06, it should arrive this Thursday but I won't be back home until Dec. 23. I've only owned 1 model 70 prior to this, and have only shot it about 10 times (458 Win Mag)...

I stumbled upon this thread while trying to educate myself on the M70...I have always had Rem 700's but the last few (5) Remmy's I bought had problems that were not dealt with to my satisfaction so I decided it was time for a change.

I have handled and shot 3 new model 70's...270 WSM (brand new Featherweight), 7mm WSM (older Shadow, CRPF), and a 30-06 (brand new Sporter)....all 3 shot sub moa right out of the box with Winchester factory ammo (Ballistic Silvertips in all)...that was enough to sell me.

I've been reading on the "weakness" of the M70 known as the coned chamber...
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/Ridgerunner665/Winc_action.jpg

I don't see that as much of a concern, even though the case head isn't shrouded in 3 rings of steel...its plenty strong enough, its not like its a Glock chamber or anything. It would take a VERY MAJOR overload to blow the case head apart...and even if it did happen, the new M70's have a better gas dispersal system than the originals.

Is the Rem 700 stronger around the case head? Yes...it is.

Is the M70 weak around the case head? NO...its not.

CRF vs. push feed...
This is where 3 of my last 5 Remmy's have had problems...its worth noting that all 3 were short actions (308's), long action calibers appear to feed fine through push feeds but the shorter rounds might have problems. The 3 I had would jam up and not feed the round into the chamber, and were finicky to load rounds into the mag.

brnmuenchow
December 5, 2011, 11:03 AM
The Winchester Model 70 is the only rifle I have and most likley will ever own. Then again I have alway's been a fan of most Winchester products.

Elkins45
December 5, 2011, 11:11 AM
Right before Winchester/USRAC fell apart in the US I managed to stumble across a NIB left handed pre-64 in 270. My holy grail of a rifle---except that it had a walnut stock. I picked it up for around $500. I have yet to fire it or hunt with it because I have been brainwashed agains wood stocks in bad weather and it has rained during deer season most years since I bought it.

I managed to locate a replacement walnut stock for cheap on eBay and was in the process of stripping it so I could (hopefully) waterproof it and save the beautiful factory stock when I stumbled across an ad for Richard's microfit stocks. A Google search revealed a whole bunch of unhappy customers, but I was severely tempted by a left-handed laminated stock they had in their bargain bin. I took a chance and called them: it took a couple of tries but eventually someone answered the phone. She told me it was actually in stock so I ordered it thinking that if things went wrong my credit card company could fight it out with them.

I was just a little surprised when a week later there was a long box sitting on the porch when I got home, and I was practically dancing for joy when I tried to mount it to my action and it fit with just a bit of extra material to remove. And since it was a bargain bin stock it was $65 delivered!

I'll post pix once I get it finished, but you can bet this will be the rifle I hunt with next year...well, unless it just won't shoot worth a darn :)

joed
December 5, 2011, 11:44 AM
I've owned model 70's post 64 and have no complaints with them at all. In fact I think they are decent rifles.

Had a sporter in 7mm Rem Mag that was a good one but I sold it because I enjoyed the .300 mag more.

I still have a Stealth in .308 that is a beautiful rifle and unbelievably accurate. Bought a few months prior to the announcement of the factory closing.

Last year I looked hi and lo for another Stealth in .22-250 but just couldn't find one. Ended up going with Remington because of this.

I could care less about CRF or whatever. After all, how many of you will be hanging upside down trying to feed rounds into the rifle. With the model 70's I've owned I can say I've never had a misfeed or jam. I buy functional rifles for hunting or target use.

Don't think you can say there's no mention of the model 70 though. I'm seeing it more and more. Only problem I see is the price has to come down. Those model 70's were cheaper when they were made in the north. Seems like they are using gold for some of the parts now.

WYcoyote
December 5, 2011, 10:59 PM
I have two M70's currently. One is a 1949 .300 H&H, metal condition is near if not at 100% and the stock has just a couple small closet dings, with razor sharp checkering. As far as I'm concerned, this is the pinacle, the crowning achievement of the factory bolt action rifle in standard form. I can only imagine what it would cost to duplicate this firearm today. No scope has ever been mounted on it. I did however, sight in the iron sights and gingerly used it to take a buffalo, to honor the craftsman who built it, and retired it to the safety of my modest collection. It would be a crime to let even honest wear degrade a gun that survived this long in such fine shape.
My other is a modern working class New Haven Classic Stainless in .300 Win, customized a bit with a HS Precision stock and a Benchmark barrel. This one does the dirty work in bad weather on tough elk hunts.
I have Rugers, Savage, Marlins, and Remingtons too, and like them all.
But everyone should have an example of "The Riflemans Rifle."

Geno
December 6, 2011, 12:10 AM
SInce my 2008 post in this thread, I purchased two M70s: a Supergrade .30-06 and a Stealth .308. Both have been pretty darned nice...fortunately comfortable to fire too.

Geno

Duckingit88
December 6, 2011, 12:29 AM
I have an always will love the model 70 post and pre 64. the only problem I have ever had from one of my Post 64 was the synthetic stock blowing apart..... seriously.
But it was my fault. I tried a Sims Vibration System accuracy device on my 7mm wsm and it worked well until to much of the vibration was sent back into the stock.

This was my fault not Winchesters.

30Cal
December 6, 2011, 02:31 PM
I've liked the look of the Featherweights better; if it weren't for that, 'd do just fine with a 700.

I will say that I don't like the M70 3-position safety. It hangs way out there, snags a sleeve or whatever, and when I look down, the bolt is hanging open and a round is missing.

USSR
December 6, 2011, 02:41 PM
I will say that I don't like the M70 3-position safety. It hangs way out there, snags a sleeve or whatever, and when I look down, the bolt is hanging open and a round is missing.

30Cal,

It only "hangs way out there" when it is in the safe, but not locked position. Swing the safety all the way to the rear, and it won't hang out there, snag on anything, and the bolt cannot open.

Don

Vern Humphrey
December 6, 2011, 03:11 PM
1. How many of you/we THR trigger jerks have actually gone looking for/at model 70s when we have been considering the purchase of a(nother) rifle ?
I have. I always keep an eye out for a good buy in a pre-64 Model 70.

2. Of the model 70 editions that have been brought out since 1964 - have there been any that really manages to match the quality of the ubiquitous Remington model 700? If so, which models are they and what years were they produced ?
Remington quality has its ups and downs, just like any other manufacturer. The current Model 70s are clearly as good in those terms as any Model 700.
3. Setting aside the BS evaluations applied to model 70s by the knucklehead gun show dealers - if you were looking at a model 700 and a model 70 and could buy either for the same price - which would you buy and why ?
I'd buy the Model 70. First of all, I like the 3-position safety. Remington, by eliminating the bolt hold-down feature on its safety has produced a rifle that I don't consi9er woods-worthy.

Next, the reliable claw extractor is a blg plus.

30Cal
December 6, 2011, 03:15 PM
30Cal,

It only "hangs way out there" when it is in the safe, but not locked position. Swing the safety all the way to the rear, and it won't hang out there, snag on anything, and the bolt cannot open.

Don

My XTR has a weak detent in the rear position. I have a 1963 version that's much better behaved... Makes me wonder why I just don't get the XTR tweaked.

x_wrench
December 6, 2011, 03:57 PM
I am CERTAINLY no firearms expert. and I do not really want to work that hard to become one. The only Model 70 experience I have had was my fathers pre 64 in 300 H&H. It shot very well, and did everything a gun should do. Especially kill animals fast. Half of that has to be because of the caliber, and the other half to the gun. ( I am assuming that the shooter does his job, because we were all raised to be marksmen in our family) Personally, I own a late eighties Remington 700 in 300 Win Mag. To be honest, I wanted an H&H, but no one was chambering guns in that by that time. I reload, so availability of ammo is not a real concern, as long as components do not dry up. Anyway, I prefer my Remington 700 to dad's Model 70. I did have to cut an inch out of the stock to make it fit me, even though I am over 6 feet tall. I have no idea who Remington is building these stocks for. Maybe basketball players. I certainly like the looks of the Remington better, and it feeds, extracts, and ejects shells just fine. And actually shoots better than the Winchester. The only thing I have done to increase the accuracy (besides working up good hand loads) is adjust the trigger pull down a bit. It routinely shoots sub (just) m.o.a. even with store bought ammo. Not all of it of course, but the Federal blue box works great in my rifle. And I have created some loads that will shoot 0.486" 5 shot groups from it. Sadly, they are way reduced cast lead loads, only good for target plinking. Would I buy a new Winchester Model 70? Probably not. If I buy another bolt action rifle, it will be something in a large caliber, like 375 H&H or larger. Maybe another Remington 700, or 798, or a Browning A-bolt, or maybe a CZ 550. But a semi-auto loader will be my next rifle purchase. Probably something in a very popular caliber like 308 Win, or 243. Probably not a Remington, even though i like the looks. More likely, a Browning B.A.R. or an AR-10 platform. Something to withstand lots of shooting.

Elbert P . Suggins
December 6, 2011, 05:04 PM
I have a 1939 M-70 that I shot my first deer with that belonged to my dad. He had a sporterized Enfield 1917 and wanted something better. It is in the safe but I remember it says Government 30-006 I believe on the barrel. I have no idea what it is worth. Nice checkering on a stock in very good condition.

Country Boy 14
December 6, 2011, 05:26 PM
I love WINCHESTER GUNS! I just cannot afford to buy a $1300 gun. One of my dream guns is a Winchester Model 70 Sporter 30-06 w/ a beautiful scope.. WHY CAN THEY NOT BE REASONABLY PRICED!! :fire::cuss::banghead::(:what:

lowerunit411
December 6, 2011, 05:35 PM
dont know where your shopping Country Boy 14, but you can buy a new model 70 sporter and fit it with a nice scope for a lot less than 1300.00

Country Boy 14
December 6, 2011, 05:37 PM
Sorry I meant a super grade.. But I would love to have a sporter too.

30Cal
December 6, 2011, 06:23 PM
4 I love WINCHESTER GUNS! I just cannot afford to buy a $1300 gun. One of my dream guns is a Winchester Model 70 Sporter 30-06 w/ a beautiful scope.. WHY CAN THEY NOT BE REASONABLY PRICED!!

I found a 1963 featherweight in 30-06 last month at the local gunstore for $600 (with tasco scope). It was covered with bad varnish, both wood and metal. Made the metal look rusted everywhere, but it cleaned up to 99%.

Vern Humphrey
December 7, 2011, 02:34 PM
I also have a 1939 Model 70 -- mine went to Africa several times with the original owner. He mounted a Redfield peep sight on the receiver and later installed a scope (keeping the peep snugged up under the rear scope base. At that time he had Winchester replace the bolt -- the original safety (see the illustration above) would not clear a scope. He mounted a Lyman Alaskan scope with 7/8" tube on the rrifle (I still have that scope and the hand-made leather scope caps he put on it,) but it now wears a more modern scope.

jmr40
December 7, 2011, 06:49 PM
I love WINCHESTER GUNS! I just cannot afford to buy a $1300 gun. One of my dream guns is a Winchester Model 70 Sporter 30-06 w/ a beautiful scope.. WHY CAN THEY NOT BE REASONABLY PRICED!!

They are here for about 1/2 that.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_61/products_id/57529

The Classics made prior to 2006 can often be found at very reasonable prices used. I paid $420 OTD for a stainless Classic in 300 WSM last summer, including a Burris scope.

Ridgerunner665
December 7, 2011, 06:55 PM
Something I noticed while I was shopping around for my 30-06...

There were several 270, 270 WSM, and 300 WSM on the shelves (Featherweights and Sporters) but no 30-06's...and one store quoted me a price on a 30-06 Sporter that was $120 more than what they had on the WSM's they had in stock. I was tempted to buy that 300 WSM Sporter ($599)...but I didn't because I wanted a 30-06.

I finally found a place that could get me the rifle I wanted (30-06 Ultimate Shadow) for $600...Why did I want the Ultimate Shadow? Because I will be changing the stock so I didn't see any reason to pay an additional $100 for a rifle with a wood stock, also...I kinda like the matte blue on the Shadow.

My rifle will be in tomorrow...if I can get my wife to send me some pics of it, I'll show it off here.

joed
December 7, 2011, 07:44 PM
I've looked all over my area for anyone selling model 70's, no one has them. A few will order them for me but the price is steep in my opinion, especially when I paid just over $500 for my last one in 2005.

Sure I like the 70 but they seem scarce and expensive. If I could find one at the same price as Remington I'd buy another.

guardcore80
December 31, 2011, 11:35 PM
Since you have experience with pre64's, I was wondering if you could answer a question. My father passed away a few years back and left me a beautiful piece of American craftsmanship in the form of a 1961 Winchester 70 featherweight(243). I have done my best to restore the rifle, and was wondering what scope base would fit the rifle. Your input would be greatly appreciated

Vern Humphrey
January 1, 2012, 09:37 AM
Weaver bases are a natural for a rifle of that vintage, along with a fixed power scope. I'd look for a used Leupold M8 in 4X or a Weaver K4.

lovethosesooners
January 1, 2012, 11:23 AM
I was fortunate enough to get a Model 70 Sporter in .270 for Christmas-I LOVE this gun!

It's a beautiful rifle, fit and finish is better than any other in my collection, think the 3 position safety is terrific, great Monte Carlo styled stock (raised cheek piece), gorgeous wood, and it is VERY accurate!

I enjoy every gun I have, but this one is my favorite (not just because it's new-thats based on my subjective evaluation).

Really can't imagine how anyone could think the new one's are anything but awesome. (sure the pre-64's are as well, just don't have any experience with one).

Vern Humphrey
January 1, 2012, 04:43 PM
My only real problem with the new Model 70s is the trigger. There was nothing wrong with the old trigger, and it's easily adjustable -- check the drawing at the head of this thread.

On the other hand, I've had a bad experience with an enclosed trigger -- moisture formed in it while elk hunting at around 11,000 feet, and it froze, locking up the trigger. So I'll stick with a simple, open trigger, thank you.

Beak50
January 1, 2012, 07:48 PM
My Model 70 is in 7rem mag.It has a coned breech,controled round feeding.It was made after 64.I got it from my father in-law,I put a 6.5x20 leuopold on it and I love it, It also has a detchable mag.I spent alot of $ getting all the bell's and whistle's you can on that gun accuracy wise and a custom muzzel brake.But I have a Mil-Surp bug that wont go away so it's at the in law's gun safe.While my play around Military type collection grow's at my home,especially since I can't hunt anymore due to disabilities.

bushmaster1313
January 1, 2012, 07:50 PM
No Brainer

Only had time time to get the 1X-4X Leupold Turkey Scope on the 1958 .270 FWT close to zero at 25 yards and then squeeze off 3 rounds at 100 yards from a fouled warm barrel on a wobbly rest at a less than optimal target with reduced recoil factory loads.

I am very pleased. After I lock tight the ring screws I hope to shoot from a proper rest, at better target, and at a relaxed pace, and see just how well this puppy will shoot.

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/bushmaster1313/CIMG0530.jpg

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/bushmaster1313/CIMG0723.jpg

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/bushmaster1313/CIMG0754.jpg

YJake
June 11, 2012, 02:52 PM
From what I gather, the new production M70 guns are some of the best ever produced and one should be able to buy with confidence.

Is that a valid statement?

I'm deciding between purchasing a Tikka or a M70 Featherweight right now as my only bolt gun, .308 or 30-06 will be the calibers of choice.

-Jake

oldcelt
June 11, 2012, 09:03 PM
I have 2 Winchester mod. 70s that date back to the late 40s or earley 50s that sold for about $120. Would not consider parting with them because I still shoot them.

Robert
June 11, 2012, 09:08 PM
From what I gather, the new production M70 guns are some of the best ever produced and one should be able to buy with confidence.

Is that a valid statement?



Absolutely.

Vern Humphrey
June 11, 2012, 11:29 PM
Except for the trigger. I don't use enclosed triggers ever since I had a bad day in the Rockies elk hunting and moisture inside an enclosed trigger froze up and put my rifle temporarily out of action. The old Model 70 trigger was open, simple, and easily adjustable. Winchester should offer it as an option on the new Model 70s.

lovethosesooners
June 12, 2012, 07:49 AM
Excellent quality and absolutely you can be VERY comforatable buying a new Model 70-you won't regret it!

USSR
June 12, 2012, 10:27 AM
The old Model 70 trigger was open, simple, and easily adjustable. Winchester should offer it as an option on the new Model 70s.

+1.

Don

skoro
June 12, 2012, 11:55 AM
I got one of the "new FN" Model 70s three years ago. It's a Featherweight in 243, and I really like it a lot. It wears a Weaver 2-10 scope and shoots and handles real well. I looked at Remington 700s at the time and have no regrets with my choice.

TheSwede
June 12, 2012, 08:32 PM
I had a model 70 post 64 called xtr westerner with a medium heavy barell 21 inch. I loved it. It was soo accurate. And the trigger was fantastic and easy to adjust. I've seen worse m70 but i've also seen worse remington. I cant say the 700 action is better than the m70. The only reason i would go for a 700 is the aftermarket and the short action.

I think winchester and remington built their best guns on the 60's. Since then it have all been about cut costs and making money. Today 700 is a piece of junk compared to the well build 60's.

oldcelt
June 13, 2012, 03:34 PM
I have been around guns since the late 40s and I have to agree with Swede, Just recently I saw a Remington 870 out of the box that would not feed from the mag, I heard this gun described as dependable as a claw hammer. Last summer a friend bought a Winchester mod 70 that would fire sometime and sometime would not. My rifles are old like me and I never had problems like I hear today. My problem is ,I have too much to compare with.

Samclrk
June 13, 2012, 03:48 PM
I have a mid eighties mod 70,.243 that I target shoot with.Rebarreled it with a heavy Shilen.Honed the trigger some.Very accurate.

TheSwede
June 13, 2012, 08:06 PM
And both remington and winchester gets away becouse of the "tacti-cool" looks. Seems like it doesnt matter if the barrels is straight in the action or if the inlet to the cheap plastic stocks is done properly as long as they look cool.

Here in sweden a prime remington 700 or winchester from the 50-60's is worth nothing. Becouse they are old. And thats sad to see becouse man are they well built or what! the finish is excellent, smooth action, great wood and great inlet fit.

I have to salute remington really for getting away with the todays production. Their advertising have really worked, selling junk wrapt in "tacticool". I would never ever buy a win or rem of todays production.

Vern Humphrey
June 13, 2012, 11:39 PM
Buy all the Model 70s you can find, and I will pay you double what you paid for them.:D

sage5907
June 14, 2012, 05:06 PM
Quote: "Except for the trigger. I don't use enclosed triggers ever since I had a bad day in the Rockies elk hunting and moisture inside an enclosed trigger froze up and put my rifle temporarily out of action. The old Model 70 trigger was open, simple, and easily adjustable."

Vern, right on! Every serious hunter should read your words. The original Model 70 trigger is foolproof, simple and easy to adjust. BW

ErieLurker
June 14, 2012, 08:59 PM
Why FN Herstal decided to marr an otherwise perfect reintroduction of the Model 70 with the current trigger instead of the old, simple, reliable one? CNC machining is good, and efficient, but some things shouldn't be messed with, just because they can be...

Vern Humphrey
June 14, 2012, 09:05 PM
I think because everyone else had a super dooper trigger, FN decided they needed one, too. They took the perfect rifle and messed with it -- to the detriment of good hunting.

sage5907
June 14, 2012, 11:39 PM
I have a FN Mauser custom rifle built by Paul Jaeger. The action came from the FN factory with a Sako No. 4 trigger which was a real dog. It would suddenly develop creep and the safety would stick on occasion. I suffered with it for years before replacing it with a Timney which may not be much better. Like Vern says, I don't have any faith in a closed trigger mechanism. I watched the Winchester manufacturing video on uTube today and saw them assembling one of their triggers. I don't think their european management mind has a clue about how to make a good hunting trigger. BW

s.forktraveler
June 16, 2012, 06:54 PM
"back in the day" as you say i shot a model 70 in 270 for a few years along with a 243 also a model 70 -- O'Conner was also my rifle & ammunition guru -- while he may have liked the model 70 if my memory serves me it was the 270 calibre he loved -- "back in the day" the model 70 was considered a very good rifle -- not great but very good -- the notoriety winchester received by making unpopular mfg. changes elevated the pre -64 popularity -- unaltered by a gunsmith it is and always was a very good rifle not great-- while i realize the following to be unfair as a comparison & it is not meant to be -- i sold
both my model 70's late 1966 & had a 270 & 243 built by a idaho gunsmith both with sako actioins and 26" douglas barrels these two were great rifles -- "in the day" we were not so interested in .5 inch groups -- today i guess the differrence between very good & great could be .25 at 100 yards

red rick
June 17, 2012, 10:02 AM
I just got a flier from Bass Pro, they have the M70 for 25% off and if you use their CC you get 10% off your first purchase. That sounds like a good deal if they are not asking MSRP for them and if they have a good selection.

Idaho Slim
June 17, 2012, 01:27 PM
I own (6) Winchester Model 70's;
.243 WSSM Coyote (Post 64)
.257 Roberts (Post 64)
.270 Westerner (Post 64) "My standard use rifle'
.270 Supergrade (Pre 64) :D
.30-06 Supergrade (Pre 64)

My father also considered Jack O'conner as being THE standard as a Hunter/Rifleman. I inherited that mentality. Jack O'Conners idealogy of stressing shot placement and not the power of the super magnums is how I conduct my hunting exploits, It has served me well. Jack's obvious preference of the M70 did not make him blind to Remingtons M700 quality. I have a inherited 70's era Rem M700 .30-06. After shooting it and seeing its quality of construction, I know it is fairly on a par with the new Win. M70's, but is not even remotely close to my "Pre-64's" in either shooting or quality. In my opinion, there will never be a out of the box factory rifle that compares with the Pre '64 Winchester Model 70.

My .270 Supergrade was my fathers, he could shoot. Once after re-conditioning it and re-sighting it in with his friend who was a competitive shooter, he put 4 out of 5 into the same hole at 100yds, he got nervous and put #5 cutting the first 4 for a 1/4in group. :D

I also used it to shoot a 3 shot group of 1-5/8" @ 500yds.

They don't make this kind of accuracy and quality these days, but IMHO, the new M70 Winchester's are as close as any manufacturer out of the box today for top accuracy & quality. Are they more expensive than their Remington counterpart? Yes, but you get what you pay for.
:cool:

Kachok
June 17, 2012, 01:39 PM
They don't make this kind of accuracy and quality these days,

I don't agree with that part, I have shot spectacular one hole groups with Savages and my Tikka, while Remington has gone downhill, there are still rifle makers that make quality accurate rifles.

YJake
June 20, 2012, 06:12 PM
I brought home my new M70 Featherweight in .308 Winchester yesterday and she is a real beauty...

The action feels much stronger than a Rem 700's or Tikka's push feed action. The bolt is fairly smooth without so much as a wipe down and lube. The walnut stock is very stunning for the price of the gun and I'm a sucker for a schnabel forend. I can run a dollar bill under the barrel all the way to the breech, this baby is free-floating and has been fitted well.

I can't wait to pick up some German glass for it and match ammunition for a day at the range!

-Jake

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