Got denied today for my CCW because im 19?


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Tpierce
November 19, 2008, 11:45 AM
I had to wait a week here in tuscaloosa, Alabama. The sheriffs office website said the age was 19 a few months ago, and then they took that part off recently. I applied and the little age bar on the online application would only go to 1989 so i knew that noone younger than 19 could apply. I am 19 so i figured they had no reason to deny it. I called today and the woman said i had to be 21 to purchase a pistol and 21 to carry. She is wrong for that. Oh well. Luckily my parents are divorced and i live at both houses on a regular basis. One house is in tuscaloosa, and one is in Hale county. I guess ill be looking into a Hale county application soon or just give up the art of CCW for a year or two. :cuss::cuss::cuss:


Edit: Nevermind...I called hale county and the woman said its at the discretion of the sheriff, and then she said check back when youre 21. Is it worth emailing the sheriff?

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Fisherman_48768
November 19, 2008, 12:48 PM
Go visit the Sheriff for a sit down visit, identify yourself with your voter registration card and draft registration to make a point that your old enough to vote and serve, then see where he comes from.
Might remind him that he was your age one time too, then ask if he was not trustworth at that age, naw never mind, he's a politician.

Tpierce
November 19, 2008, 04:29 PM
Well i typed the sheriff a letter and i attached the laws for firearms in alabama and im about to go to the post office and send it. We will see how it goes. Heres the letter.........

19 November 2008

Interim Sheriff Ron Abernathy
Tuscaloosa County Sheriff's Office
714 1/2 Greensboro Ave.
Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35401

Sheriff Ron Abernathy,

I am writing to inquire about your pistol permit policy. I applied online last Wednesday November 12, 2008 for my pistol permit. The website recently stated that the minimum age for a permit was 19 but at the time I applied that had been removed from the website. The online application would only allow people born in 1989 or later to apply. I was born on July 31, 1989, therefore I am 19 and I was able to apply online. I applied and waited a week until today and called to check the status as told. The lady that answered the phone stated that you had to be 21 to buy a handgun, therefore you must be 21 to obtain a liscense for one. I informed her that the website recently stated the minimum age was 19. She told me that as far as she knew you had to be 21.

I cannot find any federal or state law prohibiting a person 18 or older from obtaining a pistol (through a gift or inheritance) or a pistol permit, so I am assuming that this is, indeed, a departmental policy. It seems rather arbitrary when you consider that many other departments in Alabama issue permits to people under 21. In fact, I know several people around my age in the state that have permits issued in their counties.

I would appreciate if you could explain your reasoning in raising the age for obtaining a pistol permit above the requirements set by the state legislature.

I was not able to obtain a copy of my application due to the fact that it was submitted electronically. It should still be in the system at the Sheriffs office. I have also attached a copy of the Alabama firearm laws. It is a bit extensive, so for your convenience I highlighted the parts that pertain to this matter.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Mr. Barry Trenton Pierce (Trent)

<address>

<phone>

TAB
November 19, 2008, 04:33 PM
i hate to say this, but thats not a battle your going to win... he does have federal law on his side. IE you can't buy a new hand gun( maybe not even a used one in your state) or hand gun ammo yet.

K-DUB
November 19, 2008, 04:36 PM
I believe your letter is well thought out and respectful.

Good luck, maybe he will see things your way.

Tpierce
November 19, 2008, 04:36 PM
yea, i felt that same way. I was gonna just give up, but im at home today with nothing to do and i was surfing the local forum (alabamagunrights.org) and one guy told me to mail the sheriff so i figured it cant hurt. If the sheriff wont help me then im not gonna get all butthurt, Its not that big of a deal, but if he issues it to me then yay. We will see how it goes. I just figure its worth a shot even though odds are against me.

And thanks K-Dub for the kind words. I spent about 2 hours writing that and gathering info so maybe he will take it kindly.

texaspunk
November 19, 2008, 04:45 PM
Great letter. Very well put. I hope it does the trick for you. Best of luck.

cassandrasdaddy
November 19, 2008, 10:07 PM
great letter and great attitude. i hope the sheriff see that. if he still says no try to meet him face to face sometime and ask again,sadly there is a tendency to judge all young folks using the actions and attitudes of the worst as a median

Rational Debasis
November 19, 2008, 10:17 PM
I'd skip the letter and try to apply in the other county first.

It isn't a fight you are likely to win, even if you are legally correct.

maddyn99
November 19, 2008, 10:37 PM
It isn't a fight you are likely to win, even if you are legally correct.

i hate to say this, but thats not a battle your going to win...

Wow. Just the defeatist attitudes that have allowed handed the gun control freaks victory after victory. This young man should be commended for at least trying to stand up for his rights instead of telling him dont bother fighting you wont win.

Tpierce you are a great example of what needs to happen in this country. You were polite, respectful and got your point across. If the sheriff got 5, 000 letters like that from registered young voter you bet you sweet arse the "policy" would change. Good luck and good hunting.

NavyLCDR
November 20, 2008, 01:36 AM
I would not have stated in your letter, "I cannot find any federal or state law...". I would have written, "There is no federal or state law..."

Just my $.02.

Gunnerpalace
November 20, 2008, 11:14 AM
Wow. Just the defeatist attitudes that have allowed handed the gun control freaks victory after victory. This young man should be commended for at least trying to stand up for his rights instead of telling him dont bother fighting you wont win.

Tpierce you are a great example of what needs to happen in this country. You were polite, respectful and got your point across. If the sheriff got 5, 000 letters like that from registered young voter you bet you sweet arse the "policy" would change. Good luck and good hunting.

+1.

Said everything that needs to be said.

kurtmax
November 20, 2008, 01:26 PM
i hate to say this, but thats not a battle your going to win... he does have federal law on his side. IE you can't buy a new hand gun( maybe not even a used one in your state) or hand gun ammo yet.

No, he doesn't have federal law on his side. I have owned handguns since my 18th birthday. All gifts or private sales. I can buy 'handgun' ammunition if the dealer doesn't think I'm intending to use it in a handgun (Actually, I do have a 9mm hi-point carbine ;)) Wal-mart around here will sell me ammo, and I have bought tons of it online...

I live in Alabama and had a similar problem with the Sheriff. I wrote a letter and it solved the problem. I'd also like to point out that although the statues make Alabama seem like a may issue state, case law has made refusing to issue a permit to someone 18+ and not convicted of any crimes illegal. You can sue the sheriff. You will win. In a previous county I already had an attorney willing to sue pro-bono. I just decided to try one last shot at being civil and it worked.

TBH I don't know why Sheriffs in AL try to pull this crap. They assume legal risks by denying permits based on age, and they wouldn't expose themselves to any legal troubles for actually following the law... They probably figure someone 18-21 doesn't have time/money/knowledge to sue, but it only takes one person who doesn't take 'no' for an answer (like me) to give them a bad day.

As a side note for hilarity: If you do get a permit here and you are under 21, you can then carry in many states that recognize Alabama permits, even if that state doesn't issue permits to it's own citizens until they are 21. Weird huh? (careful though, some states specifically state age in their reciprocity statutes. You gotta check as the ccw sites all assume you are 21)

Tpierce
November 20, 2008, 01:40 PM
Rational Debasis - I gave the Sheriffs office in the other county a call before I typed the letter. The lady that answered said that i had to be 21 so i tried asking who determined that and she said that its at the sheriffs discretion. So i asked her if the sheriff had a set age limit of 21 and she said for all she knows the legal age to own a pistol is 21 so she thought a license to carry a pistol is 21.


So no matter which county i choose im pretty much in the same boat. I just chose tuscaloosa because its a bigger more well know county and i feel that i would be able to make a bigger difference in the state for other people like me. I know there are very few people who want to ccw at my age, and the few that do dont want to go through the trouble of writing the sheriff, but if i can make the sheriff and others in his office see the law a little more clearly it will help others excersize their rights in this county and hopefully it will flow to other counties and help others.

Also, a big thanks to KURTMAX for letting me steal the format of his letter and turn it into my own.

Thanks everyone for the kind words. Im hoping the letter will land on the sheriffs desk tomorrow sometime. Thank you.

mljdeckard
November 20, 2008, 02:03 PM
This is tough to say without sounding patronizing and condescending, but when you do turn 21, and you have crossed that magical line where the .gov has decided you are a real person after all, this seems much less important.

I spent the two years before I turned 21 in the army in Germany. (It was before my state was "Shall issue", so I can't really say I did it for that reason,) and right before I came home, I decided to buy a handgun from a friend of mine there. It was all fine, until they told me I couldn't ship it home in my own name, because I wasn't quite 21. I was the assistant armorer, I was one of three people in my unit allowed to be in my arms room by myself with a dozen .50 machine guns, SAWs, Mk 19 grenade launchers, 240s, 278 M-16s, 87 9mms, and eight M-3 grease guns. But BATF (the "E" hadn't been added yet) said I was too young to bring home a 9mm. Oh well.

SRT1
November 20, 2008, 02:08 PM
Applause for you! Most would have rolled over and just given up, but you took the time and made the effort that I wish others would. Your letter made your point, but wasn't inflammatory or confrontational.
Hope it goes well for you! I'm sure you'll keep up posted.
SRT

KBintheSLC
November 20, 2008, 02:22 PM
I would wait till you are a little older for several reasons. I don't know you personally, but most 19 year olds (including myself at that age) have their head too far up their a$$ to be responsible enough to CCW. All its going to take is you pulling that gun once to resolve a fight or other petty dispute, and your nice young life is over.
I would take a good hard look at yourself... maybe you are abnormally mature for your age. Maybe you can handle the responsibility of carrying a gun in public, and only using that gun when there is no other option. I was not ready for that until well into my late 20's.
Either way, I doubt it is worth your time asking the sheriff for a CCW.

Tpierce
November 20, 2008, 03:44 PM
KBintheSLC - I respect your opinion. I dont have an itchy trigger finger. Ive been around guns my whole life. I was captain of my schools JROTC rifle team in high school. I have a great respect for guns and i have been taught gun safety from day 1. With that being said...I do not plan to ccw everyday. I work part time currently at a gas station on the weekends until midnight and some really sketchy people come through there. I would feel a lot safer if i was able to put up a fight to an attacker.

The second reason is in the summer I like to go to a few spots out in the country and me and my girlfriend fish by the river. There are also weird people there, but they are the least of my worries. My grandfather handed me down a jennings j22 that he had to shoot snakes and rats with when he was plumbing and i think it would make a great gun for snake defense on a fishing trip. but thats a little less serious than the first reason.

Also, it is a right we have to get a license and ccw. I figure that if I dont excersize my right then it will go away one day. plus, nobody knows whats gonna happen when the president elect becomes president. So if ccw is taken away, id like to at least be able to be grandfathered into whatever he proposes. If you see what im saying.

Samgotit
November 20, 2008, 03:46 PM
As a side note for hilarity: If you do get a permit here and you are under 21, you can then carry in many states that recognize Alabama permits, even if that state doesn't issue permits to it's own citizens until they are 21. Weird huh? (careful though, some states specifically state age in their reciprocity statutes. You gotta check as the ccw sites all assume you are 21)

I think "many" is pushing it. But you are absolutely right about checking. 21 is the legal age in all of the states listed below. None of them will recognize a person under 21 with a permit from Alabama or anywhere else.


Florida

(3) Individuals qualify for concealed weapon licenses in these states upon reaching 18 years of age. HOWEVER, any licensee of these reciprocity states who is not 21 years of age or older IS PROHIBITED from carrying a concealed weapon or firearm in Florida.


Louisiana

Permit holders are reminded that while carrying a concealed handgun in another state they are bound by that state's laws governing concealed carry and permittees from other reciprocal states are bound by Louisiana concealed carry laws while in Louisiana.


Texas

All Alabama license holders will be required to follow Texas law while carrying concealed in this state including age restrictions and type of weapon permitted. This proclamation will automatically trigger a reciprocal agreement. Texas concealed handgun license holders will be allowed to carry in Alabama and must follow Alabama law while in that state.

Georgia

A non-resident of Georgia to whom has been issued a firearm license by a state listed above may carry a firearm while in Georgia in accordance with Georgia law.


ALL of the quotes are from the appropriate STATE agency websites, not a generic CCW site.

exospex
November 20, 2008, 04:11 PM
I was able to get my permit at 20 in NY, My dad had to buy the gun, then I had it added to my permit at the county clerks offce, and then I was able to pick the gun up. Sheesh. Beurocrats. I asked a lot of questions before I even applied. In NY, a Court Justice has to approve your permit application. I jumped through all the hoops. Took a handgun safety course, went on the sheriff's sponsored shooting outings. The whole nine yards, even before I submitted my application, and it went right through

kurtmax
November 20, 2008, 04:24 PM
Many state agency web sites are wrong too. You need to check codes and caselaw (pretty easy if you have a LexisNexis subscription... thanks university library :))

Georgia law never specifically states an age iirc (I don't really travel to GA so I didn't look hard). The states that say 'in accordance with state law' normally have no age limit on the carry of firearms, but on the issuance of permits. That is, if I'm issued a permit in my own state, I can still carry in the state that has issuance age limits without violating that state's laws. It's very loopholish but in the end it would be legal.

FL and TX actually have specific restrictions in their reciprocity code for age limits. Any states that also had specific age limits for carry would also be a no-go.

I'll be 21 next month so no worries much longer anyways :)

Samgotit
November 20, 2008, 04:55 PM
The states that say 'in accordance with state law' normally have no age limit on the carry of firearms, but on the issuance of permits. That is, if I'm issued a permit in my own state, I can still carry in the state that has issuance age limits without violating that state's laws. It's very loopholish but in the end it would be legal.

That is a valid and interesting take. It would be interesting to see case law that backed that up.

I couldn't find info for Mississippi, so I called the Dept. of Public Safety. The person who answered was very honest and couldn't answer whether it would be legal for someone under 21 to carry who held and out-of-state permit. He gave me the number to a state attorney. I left a message. If he calls back, I'll ask about that (as far as Miss. is concerned).

.38 Special
November 20, 2008, 06:26 PM
Well done, regardless of the outcome. Nice to see some of our young folks can still get a coherent thought down on paper, correctly spelled and punctuated.

Even if they don't always demonstrate that ability online... :p

45Badger
November 20, 2008, 06:30 PM
You've got several typos and errors in the letter. Correct spelling and grammar will only help to prove your case.

kurtmax
November 20, 2008, 10:26 PM
You've got several typos and errors in the letter. Correct spelling and grammar will only help to prove your case.

You've a pointless word (got) in your sentence. [/grammarnazi]

redbullitt
November 21, 2008, 12:29 AM
i am pretty sure , correct me someone if im wrong, but you can legally buy an antique handgun or rifle (like prior late 1800s design) or replica design at 18 years old. you could theoretically legally carry that even if you are 19. maybe??

gym
November 21, 2008, 12:36 AM
yea but the sherriff, can't spell either, ask him to gaurantee your saftey while you go to the state supreme court, and make sure he's right.

Mark in California
November 21, 2008, 01:06 AM
A letter is too easy to put aside. Ask for a interview, talk to the man and impress him. You are asking for him to approve you. Let him meet you. You can give him a letter at the meeting but it is important that he be impressed by you.

NavyLCDR
November 21, 2008, 03:58 AM
I would wait till you are a little older for several reasons. I don't know you personally, but most 19 year olds (including myself at that age) have their head too far up their a$$ to be responsible enough to CCW. All its going to take is you pulling that gun once to resolve a fight or other petty dispute, and your nice young life is over.

But he is sure old enough to give his life in some foreign country to give you the right to say this crap, and to give me the right to say that it is crap. IMOHO.

Albatross
November 21, 2008, 04:39 AM
Edit - Upon review of NavyLT's below post and a internet search of my state's laws it is pretty obvious that I was and the fellows who sold me those handguns were in violation of some laws.

In my state, it is actually 16 to possess a handgun without expressed parental consent. Therefore, at 15 I should have had expressed parental consent just to have them. I couldn't actually own them and it was illegal for me to have bought them/for the handguns to have been sold to me.

Anyway, I stand corrected.

I should have said Federal Law prevents people between the ages of 18-20 from buying a handgun from a FFl. Those who are 18-20 have to buy privately and those who are younger than 18 can only possess them.

Federal Law only prevents buying handguns until 21 years of age from FFL's. There is no federal law preventing teenagers from owning handguns or buying them elsewhere.

I had (and purchased myself) a number of handguns between the ages of 15 and 20.

/I made the below video of aerial bottle shooting when I was 16 (not as good of a shot as I used to be...)

NavyLCDR
November 21, 2008, 04:59 AM
There is no federal law preventing teenagers from owning handguns or buying them elsewhere.

I had (and purchased myself) a number of handguns between the ages of 15 and 20.

Why do people keep posting stuff like this?!? Would you care to explain, please, how you were legal from the ages of 15 to 17 in accordance with Title 18, Chapter 44, Section 922, Subsection (x) to purchase and possess a handgun without meeting all of the exceptions listed in the code - and notice, none of the exceptions apply to the purchase of the handgun, only to possession:

18 USC 922:
(x)(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or
otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has
reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile--
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
(2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to
knowingly possess--
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

(3) This subsection does not apply to--
(A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a
juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a
juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the
juvenile--
(i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching
or farming related to activities at the residence of the
juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farming at which
the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or
lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the
farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of
instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;
(ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent
or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local
law from possessing a firearm, except-- (I) during transportation by the juvenile of an unloaded
handgun in a locked container directly from the place of
transfer to a place at which an activity described in clause
(i) is to take place and transportation by the juvenile of
that handgun, unloaded and in a locked container, directly
from the place at which such an activity took place to the
transferor; or
(II) with respect to ranching or farming activities as
described in clause (i), a juvenile may possess and use a
handgun or ammunition with the prior written approval of the
juvenile's parent or legal guardian and at the direction of
an adult who is not prohibited by Federal, State or local
law from possessing a firearm;

(iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the
juvenile's possession at all times when a handgun is in the
possession of the juvenile; and
(iv) in accordance with State and local law;
(B) a juvenile who is a member of the Armed Forces of the United
States or the National Guard who possesses or is armed with a
handgun in the line of duty;
(C) a transfer by inheritance of title (but not possession) of a
handgun or ammunition to a juvenile; or
(D) the possession of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile
taken in defense of the juvenile or other persons against an
intruder into the residence of the juvenile or a residence in which
the juvenile is an invited guest.

(4) A handgun or ammunition, the possession of which is transferred
to a juvenile in circumstances in which the transferor is not in
violation of this subsection shall not be subject to permanent
confiscation by the Government if its possession by the juvenile
subsequently becomes unlawful because of the conduct of the juvenile,
but shall be returned to the lawful owner when such handgun or
ammunition is no longer required by the Government for the purposes of
investigation or prosecution.
(5) For purposes of this subsection, the term ``juvenile'' means a
person who is less than 18 years of age.

45Badger
November 21, 2008, 08:21 AM
Quote:
You've got several typos and errors in the letter. Correct spelling and grammar will only help to prove your case.

You've a pointless word (got) in your sentence. [/grammarnazi]

True:D. The pinot slitl sdnats taht tehre are eorrs in his lteter taht suohd be crortecd.

Just trying to help the young man make his case in a more effective manner.

kurtmax
November 21, 2008, 03:29 PM
i am pretty sure , correct me someone if im wrong, but you can legally buy an antique handgun or rifle (like prior late 1800s design) or replica design at 18 years old. you could theoretically legally carry that even if you are 19. maybe??

Not in Alabama. Our definitions of firearms are different than the Federal definition. Pretty much any firearm with a barrel shorter than 12" is considered a 'pistol' in Alabama (CoA 13A-11-70).

Our prohibition against SBRs and SBSs is not airtight either. I've seen people with MP5s and such that explained how it wasn't against 13A-11-63. Obviously it wasn't illegal or the NFA dealer wouldn't have sold it and the ATF wouldn't approve the tax stamp. Alabama's firearm laws are wacky so maybe it has something to do with an MP5 considered a 'pistol' because of the barrel length and it wasn't ever 'cut down' from a longer barrel length firearm (Alabama's definition of pistol doesn't care about stocks/forward grips/etc).

Byron Quick
November 21, 2008, 03:48 PM
What's the date of effect on the US Code section quoted? GCA of 1968? I had a handgun before then as a juvenile.

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