why is my OAL getting shorter when I cycle my rounds?


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skywalkrNCSU
November 21, 2008, 12:42 AM
I am still pretty new to the reloading game. I have a lee turret press with the 4 die setup and I am reloading for my springfield 1911 with 200 grain swc.

I load up a round with an OAL of 1.235 and then I cycle it through my 1911 a few times just to see if it will cycle clean and when I get done its OAL is considerably shorter, closer to 1.21 or so.

Any ideas why this is happening? Do I need to set the crimp die down further?

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35 Whelen
November 21, 2008, 01:08 AM
When you cycle the round, it knocks the bullet into the case a bit. I've experienced this with my .45. Your bullets need to be crimped more firmly. I don't know what type crimp die you're using, but 45 ACP's, since they headspace on the case mouth, should be taper crimped only.
35W

Galil5.56
November 21, 2008, 07:13 AM
It's all about case tension.

Might check the diameter of your bullets to make sure they are within spec, use larger diameter bullets, smaller diameter expander, nothing making the case mouth area slick, etc... Could also buy a tool to put a cannelure on the case as a last ditch effort. Even with best efforts, some case back can happen depending on the pistol used, number of times cycling the ammo, etc.

Remo-99
November 21, 2008, 08:43 AM
Other than case expander die insert being oversize or the bullets undersize, case neck thickness comes to mind, or lack of.
Avoid overcrimping a 45acp in 1911's.
A 45acp case should hold a bullet firm enough, without the need for a crimp.
Crimping a 45acp is mainly to remove the casemouth flare and ease chambering.

35 Whelen
November 21, 2008, 08:47 AM
Could also buy a tool to put a cannelure on the case as a last ditch effort.

45ACP headspaces on the case mouth. No roll crimps! Taper crimp only. I always taper crimp my 45 loads.
35W

Walkalong
November 21, 2008, 08:55 AM
A little more neck tension as stated. A very light crimp as stated. It is not uncommon for this to happen with repeated chambering. Something to watch for. :)

Don't squish them and ruin neck tension. ;)

jfh
November 21, 2008, 09:06 AM
I'll assume you are aware that shortening LOAs in a semiauto are a potential recipe for disaster if you are running MAX loads--so this is a problem to get sorted out. Using the Lee 4-die set is good, but it does take some tweaking and experimentation to get it set up properly for consistent and safe crimping.

Try this test--build a round with your current configuration and measure it. Then push it firmly ("lean into it") into the (work)benchtop nose first. Measure it again. If the LOA has gotten shorter, your crimp is not tight enough.

Test two: Build another round--maybe even a dummy (e.g., no powder / primer). Measure LOA--then insert it into your magazine, and load it by dropping the slide. Measure LOA. Examine the round for marks on the nose / ogive of the bullet, and on the case--it may be getting "bumped" on the feed ramp or chamber top as it is fed in. (This problem is slightly different; you may need to tweak the round LOA to eliminate this problem, but there are numerous other things to look at as well--ramp angle, chamber cleanliness and size, etc.)

Assuming that your round chambers fine, then tweaking the die setup is what you want to do.

Generally speaking, you want 1) the number 3 / seater die body set down enough so that the stem inserts the bullet cleanly, and the complete stroke also removes the bell--but does no more work on the case.

This setting will now allow you to set up die #4. Again, the die body must be "high" enough so that turning the stem only dials in more crimp.

Do not confuse the "bump" of the #4 die as the crimp--the bump, or double bump, is the post-sizing done to ensure reliable feeding. "Post sizing" is a contentious issue--generally, it shouldn't be done, but I'll leave that for another post.

Once you think you have the dies set up properly, repeat the tests originally mentioned: Do the push test, and also do the feed test.

Then head to the range and try loading and shooting multiple rounds, and measure the rounds as you go: load two rounds in the magazine, fire the first one--but now measure the 2nd one's LOA to see if it changed.

Assuming the change is none or within a ROE (range of Error, say plus-or-minus .001), then load three rounds--and check the LOA of the third round.

I won't belabor the point--but taking the time to get your (.45ACP) die tweaked out will enable you to build 1000s of rounds readily--just plan on using the same components and recipe.

Jim H.

fguffey
November 21, 2008, 09:11 AM
skywalkrNCSU, think of crimping as your friend, you need a crimp, in the 45ACP there is no such thing as 'too much crimp' the crimp makes the powder work, it forces the case to expand before releasing the bullet, and it does wonders for cycling the slide, if it was not for 'fast powder' some would make so many mistakes they could only load for cylinder type pistols.

Again, use the inertia hammer to remove the bullet from a commercial round and compare with the rounds you load, use different crimping dies, I have tapper, roll, Lee factory and my favorite, the sizer die, without the primer punch assembly. I can not get a crimp 'TOO GOOD' loosely translated that could be a quote from Richard Lee, when someone tells you do not need to crimp, do as I do, smile, and go back to crimping.

With bottle neck case, a different matter, again, a good crimp is desired, the problem with crimping the bottle neck case is the effect of crimping on the case, the crimp/shoulder in the seating die pushes the case down as the crimp is applied, when crimping, the case is unsupported, because of this crimping can cause the case to 'squat' shorten causing the neck below the crimp to expand and loosen the effect of bullet hold 'neck tension', and or bulge the shoulder, after that comes the question "why are my reloads difficult to chamber"? and if the sized case, before primer, powder and bullet, was not checked in the chamber of the rifle it was loaded for, there is no answer.

F. Guffey

Galil5.56
November 21, 2008, 10:01 AM
Quote:
Could also buy a tool to put a cannelure on the case as a last ditch effort.

45ACP headspaces on the case mouth. No roll crimps! Taper crimp only. I always taper crimp my 45 loads.
35W


Roll crimps from putting a cannelure on a case from a cannelure tool... I'm not following you here.:confused: How exactly do you "roll crimp" a 45 auto round with this tool:

http://www.lockstock.com/images/CHCANNELURE.jpg

Walkalong
November 21, 2008, 10:38 AM
you need a crimp, in the 45ACP there is no such thing as 'too much crimp' the crimp makes the powder work......I must respectively disagree.

The powders used in .45 ACP do not need a strong crimp. The case headspaces on the rim and it cannot be moved in too far or it can cause headspace issues. A light taper crimp is all that is needed in .45 ACP. Many merely remove the belling. Good neck tension is a must.

"Post sizing" with the Carbide Crimp Die can actually ruin the good neck tension you need. It seems many of the carbide rings are undersized and post size way too much. It should only "kiss" an occasional loaded round.

Reloaders have loaded hundreds of thousands of .45 lead and jacketed reloads that functioned perfectly for decades before the post sizing Carbide Crimp Die was even invented. It is not needed for 99.9% of reloading.

Jim Watson has stated the only case I agree with for using it. That is, using batches of cheap cast bullets where some are oversized to use for cheap practice ammo. That die will make squish them down and make them fit. That saves gauging them all etc. It is not match ammo, just cheap practice ammo. When using in spec bullets there is absolutely no need for it. Any crimp die will work just fine.

This solution for a non problem is the only gripe I have with Lee. Otherwise they make good affordable equipment that will load great ammo.

Bronson7
November 21, 2008, 10:45 AM
skywalkrNCSU, think of crimping as your friend, you need a crimp, in the 45ACP there is no such thing as 'too much crimp' the crimp makes the powder work, it forces the case to expand before releasing the bullet, and it does wonders for cycling the slide, if it was not for 'fast powder' some would make so many mistakes they could only load for cylinder type pistols.

Again, use the inertia hammer to remove the bullet from a commercial round and compare with the rounds you load, use different crimping dies, I have tapper, roll, Lee factory and my favorite, the sizer die, without the primer punch assembly. I can not get a crimp 'TOO GOOD' loosely translated that could be a quote from Richard Lee, when someone tells you do not need to crimp, do as I do, smile, and go back to crimping.

With bottle neck case, a different matter, again, a good crimp is desired, the problem with crimping the bottle neck case is the effect of crimping on the case, the crimp/shoulder in the seating die pushes the case down as the crimp is applied, when crimping, the case is unsupported, because of this crimping can cause the case to 'squat' shorten causing the neck below the crimp to expand and loosen the effect of bullet hold 'neck tension', and or bulge the shoulder, after that comes the question "why are my reloads difficult to chamber"? and if the sized case, before primer, powder and bullet, was not checked in the chamber of the rifle it was loaded for, there is no answer.

F. Guffey

Guffey, you need to rethink things. I'm not being a wise a@# here, but you are definitly wrong.
Bronson7

ojibweindian
November 21, 2008, 10:54 AM
Use the seating die to put a taper crimp on your cartridges. Do not use the Lee Factory Crimp Die that comes with the Deluxe Pistol Die set as that may squeeze the SWC to a smaller diameter. This squeezing may cause too little neck tension, causing pronounced set-back.

Jim Watson
November 21, 2008, 11:00 AM
If chambering a round "a few times" sets the bullet back, what does chambering a round one time, as in normal use, do to it? If that causes setback, you need more neck tension. The expander plug should be several thousandths smaller than the bullet diameter. (What IS the bullet diameter, anyhow? Cast .45 ACP should be about .452".) The sizing die should be small enough that the expander plug has to do some expanding.

Taper crimp is good, but if the bullet is loose, crimp is just a bandaid. I once had some thin Remington brass that no combination of dies and bullets would get tight enough, so I gave them away to someone who was willing to keep fooling with them.

I have put a cannelure at the base of short 185 grain bullets and it definitely works, but it is an extra step in the loading process. A slow step with one of the illustrated roller gadgets. I have a device that will do it in one stroke of the loading press, but it still has to be done single stage after the rounds come off the progressive. So I seldom load light bullets.

Steve C
November 21, 2008, 11:25 AM
You can test the bullet tension in the case by pushing the nose of the bullet against the side of the bench top using thumb pressure. The bullet should remain in the same position leaving OAL unchanged. If not, increase your crimp and retest until the bullet is adequately held in place.

Galil5.56
November 21, 2008, 11:46 AM
I wish they would rename "taper crimp" to "bell removal" die... If by using a std TC die in the hopes of making a bullet stay put more by adding more "crimp", then I have certainly never seen this, and in fact it has always made the problem worse in my experience, and can screw up headspace by making the case mouth edge too small (case mouth entering leade).

Sure, the TC die will squeeze the case and bullet together, but what happens when the cartridge leaves the die???... The case springs back, and bullet remains it same size. Now any neck tension you had is gone, and there is less friction to do its job. I like a nice healthy, symetrical bulge in the case caused by the bullet, and nothing else again in my experience aside from adding a case cannelure will afford better resistance to setback. Now if we are talking about a roll crimp where applicable, and where a definite portion of the case mouth is "biting" into the bullet, then yes, this absolutely helps with setback, consistent combustion, etc.

rcmodel
November 21, 2008, 12:45 PM
in the 45ACP there is no such thing as 'too much crimp'That is just wrong!

As already stated by several knowledgeable re-loaders, excess taper crimp squeezes the bullet bearing surface smaller then it is supposed to be. The brass has more "spring" then the lead core in the bullet, and excess crimp may actually make the bullet looser rather then tighter. It can also loosen the jacket on the lead core.

As well as inaccurate, because the bullet becomes under-size for the bore if too much taper crimp is used.

rcmodel

The Bushmaster
November 21, 2008, 01:47 PM
Considering all the good advice you have recieved from most of the posters on this thread. There also is a reminder as to why we don't shoot other's reloads in our guns...

How compilcated can you make one of the simplest rounds to reload.

I never started measuring the crimp diameter until recently and then mostly out of curiosity. If you bell the case just enough to allow the starting of the bullet into the case. Seat the bullet and set the crimp to remove the crimp and just a tinny bit more yer done...Now if you must measure the crimp diameter...It should be somewhere between .469" and .472". Mine all come up to .471".

You will have bullet setback if you continually chamber the same round over and over. Stop playing with your handgun so much with live rounds or you will end up with a ND or worse. If you must play with your gun make up a few dummy rounds or buy snap caps. If you are experiencing bullet set back after just a couple of chamberings of the same round you are probably having a feed ramp problem. See a gunsmith...

Steve C
November 21, 2008, 01:55 PM
The advantage of loading your own is you can experiment to see what works. For me, more crimp has always solved bullet set back problems. Every major manufacturer of ammunition crimps the ammo they produce. They don't have any magic process, dies or secret way to do it. Getting an adequate crimp is a matter of adjusting your die properly. Make an adjustment then test.

If you are worried about over crimping just drop the round into a gauge or use the chamber of your pistol barrel removed from the gun and compare against a factory round to see proper head spacing.

Walkalong
November 21, 2008, 02:44 PM
I never started measuring the crimp diameter until recently I still haven't. Not necessary.

A good roll crimp will definitely help bullet setback, but a taper crimp just isn't the same. For starters, it is not crimping into a cannelure or crimp groove. It is much easier to overdo a taper crimp with a non cannelure/crimp groove bullet and do more harm than good.

I do use a heavy taper crimp for a couple of applications, and it works very well, but in other applications that has ruined accuracy.

Crimps of any kind can help bullet setback, but no amount of crimp can make up for poor neck tension.

jfh
November 21, 2008, 03:07 PM
as an aside--the collective knowledge and wisdom expressed here in this thread is delightful.

Let's meet at The Bushmaster's place for a beer or soda.

Personally, I haven't used the TC die for #4 for some time. Mostly, it's because I 1) tried a new 4-die set (i.e., with the FCD) in 10mm last summer and it worked fine--so I set up a new one for .45ACP in the Turret.

I get no post-sizing with the FCD, generally--but the latest LD set I build with new Starlines and Oregon Trail Laser Cast (.452) 200-gr LSWCs did postsize--consistently. The round fits fine in my MAX cart gauge, and in my chamber, BTW. We'll have to see what it's like for shooting.

Jim H.

35 Whelen
November 21, 2008, 09:18 PM
Roll crimps from putting a cannelure on a case from a cannelure tool... I'm not following you here. How exactly do you "roll crimp" a 45 auto round with this tool:

You don't apply crimps with a canneluring tool. You create cannelures. And the only reason to create a cannelure on a bullet is to roll crimp it into place.

Quoting my (old) Hornady manual:
"Little or no crimp should be used, as the 45 Auto headspaces on the mouth of the case."

_________________________________________________________________
From Sierra's website:
"Taper crimping is the best choice for any firearm which headspaces on the case mouth. Cartridges intended for use in self-loading pistols, such as the .45 ACP, should never be given any type of crimp other than a taper crimp. Because of the method of headspacing on the case mouth, a slight ledge must be left to provide positive positioning of a chambered round."
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/reloadingx63x21.jpg
"An example of an improper type of crimp. These .45 ACP cartridges, intended for use in a semi-automatic pistol, have been given a roll crimp. Ammunition which head-spaces on the case mouth should be taper crimped only; roll crimps are best reserved for the rimmed cases commonly used in revolvers."
"On these cases, the use of a roll crimp will result in poor ignition, unreliable functioning, and reduced accuracy. Few bullets designed for autos have cannelures, limiting the amount (and type) of crimp that may be applied."

_________________________________________________________________
From Gun Tests Magazine:
"As a straight-walled rimless pistol cartridge, the .45 ACP headspaces on the mouth, or leading edge of the cartridge. Because of this, trim length is critical, and you must not use a roll crimp. Instead, a taper-crimp die is recommended to ensure that bullets will not slip under recoil or other forces generated as the firearm cycles. This crimp should be applied in a separate step and must not be part of the bullet seating processes."

_________________________________________________________________

Taper crimping wasn't my invention, it's just the way I learned to crimp 45's. And in my limited experience, (Got my first 45 and began loading for it Valentine's Day, 1982) it causes NO decrease in accuracy. Bear in mind, I'm not talking about a taper crimp so tight that it causes bodily fluid to seep from the cartridge; just a nice, firm crimp.

As one other poster said, don't play with your ammo. If you like cycling ammunition, either buy some Snap-Caps, or load a few dummy rounds. Besides, racking the slide and chambering a round is no indication as to whther or not that particular round will feed. I've had many, especially Keith type SWC's I've loaded, that wouldn't chamber by hand-jibing the slide, but would feed flawlessly when fired.
Cha-ching....2
35W

Galil5.56
November 21, 2008, 09:44 PM
35W, I think you are not understanding what I am writing. I am talking about adding a cannelure around the case, not the bullet. Where did I say add a cannelure to a bullet, and roll crimp 45 auto ammo :confused:? This heavily cannelured case from the Corbon site clearly demonstrates what I am saying:

http://www.bulletswage.com/images/45acp-l.jpg

You can taper crimp to remove belling, and have a cannelure of the case to stop setback at the same time, no problem. One removes flare to promote functioning, the other acts as a physical stop for bullet setback... Where's the confusion?

I will say the first picture you posted does have a nice bulge irregardless of the degree of crimp they display. I fully understand the role of TCing in certain applications, and the role/function of a RCing in others... No need to cite numerous articles, and snarky comments that preach to this choir. And yes, a roll crimp should not be used on rounds that rely on case mouth headspacing... I figured anyone who cared a nickel's worth of spit about their craft, learned that long ago.

Everything clear now?

35 Whelen
November 21, 2008, 10:38 PM
My apologies, I did misunderstand you. I would have never imagined applying a cannelure to a loaded round. I should have read more carefully.
That being said, I see the following problems with this technique:
1) I've never applied a cannelure to a bullet, (never had to) but it seems like a real pain to cannelure loaded rounds.
2) It seems to me, depending on the bullet used when the case is cannelured, that you've ruined the case because first, if a shorter bullet is used next time the case is loaded, it's going to "telescope" into the case until it hits the existing cannelure, and second, if you use a longer bullet, it won't be able to be seated to proper depth. Third, if the cannelure were to "iron" itself out upon firing the case would be weakened at the point of the cannelure. This would be especially true with a cannelure as deep as the one pictured.Might not be a problem on a more shallow one.

It appears to me it be easier on both the loader and the brass to apply a little taper crimp, but that's just my take.

Sorry my citing examples and showing a picture wadded up your shorts. The choir is currently discussing crimps; both taper and roll.

Kind regards,
35W

fguffey
November 21, 2008, 10:57 PM
Bronson7, Walkalong, a perfectionist reloader met me at the range, he loaded 200 45ACP and wanted me to try them, I told him they would not work in my 45 ACP, I tried them and they did not work, I took them home partial length crimped them, went back to the range and the partially crimped round flew through the pistol, four other shooters at the range shot the reloads without a problem

Before that I purchased a Dillon 550B, later when I was in Arizona I picked up additional equipment and talked to some reloaders that worked for Dillon, I explained to them I do not use their dies because of the four position tool holder, there is not enough room to seat on one position and crimp on another because I use a lock-out and of powder die and I was not going to start over by replacing my dies, they said a lot of people prefer using other dies, because of the expense and for other reasons, to them it was not a problem, I then brought up the subject of the 45 ACP, it likes commercial/factory ammo and the only way I could duplicate the dimensions was to use a RCBS carbide sizer die, I explain the ammo came out flawless, again the reloaders at Dillon said, not a problem, they explained before they settled on the dies they sell today they used a sizer die to crimp the 45 ACP along with every crimp die available from all competitors and he said they had some good ones and the sizer die did a good job, he then explained Dillon reloades thousands upon thousands of rounds.

I took the conceal carry test with the 45 ACP, I loaded the ammo and crimped all of the rounds with a sizer die, accurate and flawless. I do not believe there are many micrometers/gages I do not have, including 3 with a combined weigh of 125 lbs+, if necessary I could measure the amount of effort required to bull a bullet, but any one that has read Richard Lee's book 'Modern Reloading' knows that and that he was a big fan of crimping he considered it very necessary, his rational gave good reasons for a good crimp and he developed a good economical tool to get the maximum possible.

F. Guffey

Walkalong
November 21, 2008, 11:07 PM
Bronson7, Walkalong, a perfectionist reloader met me at the range, he loaded 200 45ACP and wanted me to try them, I told him they would not work in my 45 ACP, I tried them and they did not work, I took them home partial length crimped them,Then they simply were not made properly. All a .45 ACP reload needs is a very light taper crimp. Enough to remove the bell and maybe a touch more. I need a Loupe to see my .45 crimp. And don't even get me started about the Lee CFCD. :D

arizona98tj
November 22, 2008, 12:42 AM
) It seems to me, depending on the bullet used when the case is cannelured, that you've ruined the case because first, if a shorter bullet is used next time the case is loaded, it's going to "telescope" into the case until it hits the existing cannelure, and second, if you use a longer bullet, it won't be able to be seated to proper depth. Third, if the cannelure were to "iron" itself out upon firing the case would be weakened at the point of the cannelure. This would be especially true with a cannelure as deep as the one pictured.Might not be a problem on a more shallow one.

I just checked some Winchester SilverTip hollowpoints (.45 ACP) sitting on the shelf and they were done in this fashion.
Much of the .45 ACP military brass (M1911) I have also has a cannelure rolled into the brass. I've never personally seen one rolled as heavily as that shown in the above photo.

I've not found it to be a problem. I've been using/reloading this brass since the mid-70s, using primarily 230 FMJ and 200 SWC cast, without the issues you mentioned above.

YMMV

D. Manley
November 22, 2008, 12:42 AM
"...Then they simply were not made properly. All a .45 ACP reload needs is a very light taper crimp. Enough to remove the bell and maybe a touch more..."

I've gotta' agree and I don't think anyone in the thread has even mentioned the effect of heavy crimp on plated bullets yet. If a heavy crimp is required to chamber, you can pretty safely bet its due to a very tight (read, sized below SAAMI spec) chamber.

The Bushmaster
November 22, 2008, 12:50 AM
All Federal handgun cases have a cannelure...

jcwit
November 22, 2008, 01:05 AM
I size my cast bullets to .452, and use the Lee factory crimp die. Seeing as how it was stated that the FCD would resize the bullet to a smaller dia. I pulled a rd. apart and micked the bullet--size .452 no change. BTW I started using the FCD after Lee suggested it because I was having trouble with the slid going to full battery. The FCD solved the problem.

Remo-99
November 22, 2008, 01:24 AM
I was having trouble with the slid going to full battery

1911? jcwit?
I had the same issue, when I first loaded for a 45acp 1911.
I was just 'crimping' out the case mouthflare only, but found I needed to taper crimp just a beesdik width more, to get totally reliable chambering rounds, it wasn't much more, the crimp wasn't visible as an actual 'crimp'.
But that's all it took to fix it. once you find what works well for your 1911. Stick to it, that's my thoughts.

35 Whelen
November 22, 2008, 01:29 AM
I just checked some Winchester SilverTip hollowpoints (.45 ACP) sitting on the shelf and they were done in this fashion.
Much of the .45 ACP military brass (M1911) I have also has a cannelure rolled into the brass. I've never personally seen one rolled as heavily as that shown in the above photo.

After I posted that, I recalled seeing some of my 45 brass with a cannelure in the case, but nowhere near the extent of the one pictured. I don't see how that case could possbily be reloaded, but, whose nose!
35W

fguffey
November 22, 2008, 10:31 AM
I purchased 22,000 once fired cases, when separating, I found the cannelure helpful, after that, I ignored it.

F. Guffey

fguffey
November 22, 2008, 11:19 AM
D. Manley, his reloades worked in his 1911 Colt and three other 45 ACPs, not my 45, I would not trade the accuracy for a pistol that would chamber anything, nor would I repair it or send it back to get repaired, as you said "If a heavy crimp is required to chamber, you can pretty safely bet its due to a very tight (read, sized below SAAMI spec)". Winchester (white Box), surplus, Federal, NT, CCI etc., commercial ammo works flawlessly, the cases that are crimped with the sizer die are identical in dimension and appearance to commercial ammo, measuring before and after crimping, there is .003 to .005 thousands difference. I have another complete slide with barrel, my friend call it Mickey, it will shoot just about anything, just not as accurate. I built two 1911s with Remington Rand and Colt slides, both are tight and like new ammo or the ammo that is crimped with the sizer die, to me it is crimping with 'case support', and no, I did not expect anyone to step AWAY:) from the computer, get out the micrometers, load a few rounds without primer/ powder, try to pull the bullets and or cycle through the pistol.

Heavy crimp, light crimp, no crimp, tapper crimp, roll crimp, Lee's factory crimp and then there is someone saying there way is the only way and me saying 'if you are having problems consider this' or not, there is not much I can not do with dies, without purchasing more dies and spending a lot of money, look for case support dies, spend a lot of money, it is a choice.



F, Guffey

D. Manley
November 22, 2008, 02:57 PM
"...his reloades worked in his 1911 Colt and three other 45 ACPs, not my 45, I would not trade the accuracy for a pistol that would chamber anything, nor would I repair it or send it back to get repaired, as you said "If a heavy crimp is required to chamber, you can pretty safely bet its due to a very tight (read, sized below SAAMI spec)"...

No argument here, you've got an accurate gun with a tight chamber and you're doing as you prefer to do to insure function. While your solution works well for you, I don't happen to believe its something recommended for "mass consumption". I've seen the tight chamber problem come up as more & more owners of combat-style handguns increasingly install aftermarket "match" barrels only to find their favorite loads no longer chamber. The problem can be addressed in a number of ways including your solution however, a blanket statement that you cannot overcrimp is just plain wrong and can have both undesirable and dangerous consequences.

In my own practice, I run every, single piece of range brass through EGW U-Dies prior to loading. The extra 1-thousandth provides more than ample bullet tension and a simple removing of the "bell" of the case is all that's required for my needs. My crimps run an average of .376/.377 (9MM), .421/.422 (.40 S&W) and .471/.472 (.45 ACP). I'm yet to have a round fail to chamber in any of my guns (or anyone else's, for that matter).

Walkalong
November 22, 2008, 03:15 PM
a blanket statement that you cannot overcrimp is just plain wrong and can have both undesirable and dangerous consequences.
I agree 100%

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you have a match barrel with an at SAMMI minimum spec or tighter than SAMMI spec chamber, all bets are off, and you may have to go to extra measures to get your ammo to fit, but over crimping is not the solution.

I bought an EMP that was that way. I started having an occasional failure to chamber completely and the round would jam tight in the chamber. I started measuring everything carefully, bought a case gauge for my loaded rounds, and found that some rounds that were a tight slip fit in the gauge, but were just ever so slightly over SAMMI minimum, would not fully chamber. I sent it back to Springfield, who say they cut EMP barrel chamber to Minimum SAMMI spec by the way, and they just touched it with a reamer and got it up to minimum SAMMI spec. Now I gauge all my 9MM brass BEFORE I load it and scrap anything that does not slip out of the gauge of its own weight. I load all the brass that passed the gauge and have never had another problem with that SAMMI minimum spec chamber and all I do is a very light crimp. I don't even use an EGW undersized die. I don't gauge the loaded ammo. All the cases that were a tight slip fit in the gauge before loading will still fit the gauge after loading with nothing more than a light taper crimp.

fguffey
November 23, 2008, 07:47 AM
Skywalker, you may have to quit playing with your ammo, or not. You chambered some rounds and you did a good thing, you measured the length before and after, because of this you found the cases were shorter, now let you me do the same thing only this time we use a new box of factory loaded ammo and find when chambering new factory ammo the OAL does not change, now we have a way of comparing our reloades knowing the factory that loaded the ammo knows the danger of chambering a round that shortens, they know pressure is increased. Back to your ammo, if you cycle the same round again and again the round shortens, we both know there is something wrong, with the crimp or method.

Back to factory ammo, nice, no bulge, just a case that looks like it was sized and the bullet poured, not seated, how do they do that? at the speeds their machines run.

There is a book on modern reloading that has a section on crimping, if nothing else, the writer made it a point to delay the release of the bullet with a crimp and made it clear there was no advantage to going through the motions of crimping, crimpomg serves two+ purposes, feed and bullet hold, as you have pointed out, a light crimp will not hold the bullet in place when chambered in a slide gun.

One more thing, bullet release, it is going to happen, the case is going to expand, PSI is in all directions be in a neck type case or a straight wall, the case is going to expand and when it does, the bullet is released, he went on to gives pressures required to unseat a bullet with a go-rillo:what: crimp and a whimppy crimp, and again, he said there was no reason to be iffy about the crimp.

F. Guffey



F. Guffey

fguffey
November 23, 2008, 08:36 AM
One pistol does not like reloads, option? send it back for repair? If you are talking about the last two builds both had complete slides, Remington and Colt of the 40s, nothing aftermarket about either barrel, on those two, one wants to go to the range, any magazine good ammo, the other, it likes expensive magazines and good ammo without the magazine, leave it at home..

Send it back, chamber it, get another barrel, Ruger P90, again I would not trade the accuracy for a pistol that shoots like everyone expects it to and as I said, Dillon is in the business of testing and the development of equipment, if I have done it once, they have done it thousands of time.

Too much crimp? you know there is too much crimp when the straight wall case looks like a bottle neck case, gages are nice, problem. I do not shoot gages, I have no problem removing a barrel on a SA and using the chamber to determine the ability of the loaded ammo to chamber.

Rhetorical, I do not expect an answer, I size a case, seat a bullet, now I have a bulge, the diameter of the case below the bullet did not change, the top of the case expanded, stretched, and the stretch is not always the same, do I have to accept that, if I do and take all of the loads to the range, will all of the ammo chamber? Will some jam? I did not go to the range to sorting ammo by size, I size first then go to the range and I do not want ammo that shortens when it is chambered, the first time, the second time or third.

F. Guffey

fguffey
November 24, 2008, 10:10 AM
Skywalker, think about this when considering crimping your cases, shortening the OAL when chambering increases pressure AND there is not one answer, and there it gets complicated when two or things are going on at one time.

There is a phenomena that happens every once in a while, when it does the answer is always allusive. A case with primer and bullet/no powder will drive the bullet out of the case and into the barrel and if you use Federal primers:what:, no telling, when we go back and add powder to the case, the case now has a primer, powder and bullet, now we have a primer that will explode and powder that will burn, not at the same speed and remember, the primer explosion is over the top of the powder, so the pressure created by the primer gets there first causing the bullet to hit the forcing cone in the barrel and if not timed perfectly;), will stop causing a bullet seated against the lands condition, next event, burning powder building pressure with a plugged barrel. then the phenomena, you can take their advice and put a girley crimp on your cases or you can get serious and consider it just could be bad advice thinking their way is the only way.

F. Guffey

Walkalong
November 24, 2008, 11:02 AM
I do not want ammo that shortens when it is chamberedNeck tension. No amount of crimp will make up for poor neck tension. Some loads need a very good crimp. Others just need a light crimp, but all of them need sufficient neck tension.

then the phenomena, you can take their advice and put a girley crimp on your cases or you can get serious and consider it just could be bad advice thinking their way is the only way.
Again, sufficient neck tension with a reasonable crimp will suffice. Your scaring the neewbies unnecessarily. Pressure excursions, detonations and their existence or not is an entirely different discussion unrelated to the crimp debate. ;)

jcwit
November 24, 2008, 11:34 AM
Good grief, I've been reloading since the later 1950's, never have I had the troubles listed. Yes their have been some bumps along the way but nothing like this. Bigest problem was with my Kimber .45 with a Ed Brown match barrel installed. Didn't go to full battery and the Lee FCD fixed it as I stated earlier. In looking at the reloaded cartridges I think the FCD adds neck tension, whether or not it works. Looking at some of the posts it seems some want to make this rocket science, if it were the Lawers would have put a stop to reloading long ago.

Walkalong
November 24, 2008, 04:41 PM
I think the FCD adds neck tensionNope. The lead won't spring back and the brass will. It can actually lesson neck tension in some cases, but it can not improve it.

it seems some want to make this rocket science, if it were the Lawers would have put a stop to reloading long ago.Agree 100%

jcwit
November 24, 2008, 05:44 PM
Whatever, you may/probably are right. End result however was that the FCD solved my problem as Mr. Lee said it would.

The Bushmaster
November 24, 2008, 06:20 PM
jcwit...Ya have to give Walkalong some slack. I've just been able to convince him that Lee FCD is good for .30-30. We can't pull him along by leaps and bounds. We must bring him along gently...:D

jcwit
November 24, 2008, 06:26 PM
Didn't mean anything bad with my last post, just that it fixed my problem. Walkalong don't take it the wrong way. My chamber is so tight on this 45, 1911 that if it gets dirty it will give me problems. But a quick pass with a patch and solvent cures it.

Walkalong
November 24, 2008, 06:58 PM
Walkalong don't take it the wrong I didn't, besides, I have a thick skin. You have to when you are opinionated like me. :D

Our number one rule in the shop I run is: "Leave your feelings in the truck"

Sometimes folks forget, and then they have to take their trampled feelings and put them away. Never a pretty sight.

Bushmaster has not seen my latest Lee CFCD post on .us (http://www.thehighroad.us/showpost.php?p=5039059&postcount=36), or he would be in shock. :eek:

P-32
November 24, 2008, 08:39 PM
There are a couple of things I've found which will allow bullet set back and this is what the OP has. My second center fire pistol was a 1911. I had some learning curves to work though some 30 years ago.

I have to agree quit a bit with Walkalong. The biggest problem I see is worn out brass. I'm pretty good at not leaving too much brass for the brass gods and there comes a time when the brass has been worked enough it won't size properly.

I don't pick up range brass unless I watched the guy fire new brass out of a factory box. I also like a verbal confirmation it is new brass. I'm lucky to have enough 45 ACP brass to wear a couple of pistols out anyways. I don't waste my time on picking up brass I'm going to recycle into the bad brass bin either. Adding a stiffer crimp only makes the problm worse.

Some one said 45 ACP head spaces on the extractor. This is pure Horse manure. A properly seat up load will head space on the mouth of the case like it is supposed to.

Purhaps the OP is belling too much to start with or maybe has undersized bullets. I started with Lee Carbides and changed to RCBS. I do not find I need a Lee fcd as my rounds load and work very well by removing the bell and sizing the crimp to .472. One of my 1911's has a Kart barrel and my reloads function just fine in it.

coachman48
November 24, 2008, 10:04 PM
skywalkrNCSU,

I had this same problem when I started reloading and Walkalong and others gave me good advice and helped me out, so they will give you some GOOD advice. I found that any FACTORY AMMO will do the same thing if it is cycled enough so I quit worrying about it. I just bear in mind that if I cycle my ammo alot it will shorten the OAL on my reloads so I just load and shoot them. I also found out you can over crimp trying too get the bullet tighter in the case so much so that I would deform the FMJ bullets, so I just bell case enough too get bullet started in the case and crimp maybe slightly more than just removing the bell, which by looking you can not even tell it is Belled. Hope this helps from one NEW Reloader to another. :eek:

Bob

fguffey
November 25, 2008, 10:24 AM
there is spiking or as someone else said, bullet movement is not good, there are ways that work especially if your life depends on it, the bayonet crimp is for the heaviest of recoil, cut a groove in the bullet, seat the bullet then dent the neck of the case into the groove, to prevent the bullet from moving back when chambered or by recoil, put a groove in the case at the base of the bullet, the groove prevents the bullet from seating further into the case but does nothing to prevent the bullet from moving forward, a groove in the case and stake the neck, that is labor intensive.

Time, use a good crimp to delay the release of the bullet, this allows the powder to get started (good) by delaying the release of the bullet, HOW? with a crimp, the difference? 300 PSI + or - up to 500 PSI, anything over 500 PSI would be better but with a crimp of anykind, that is maximum, but when time is added to the scheme of events, that is it.

F. Guffey

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