Powder deviation help please.


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NC-Mike
November 21, 2008, 01:22 PM
As you may know, I just started reloading. I have loaded a total of 15 rounds on my Lee Classic using it a single stage. I've now figured out the safety prime and powder dispenser so I'm ready to err rip and auto index! :evil:

The "problem" I have is the charge I'm throwing and lack of data. I bought the surplus CPP pistol powder from Wideners.

They give this data for 9mm:

Charge_____Bullet______Velocity__Case/Primer___Test Gun

5.7gr_______115gr FMJ__1145 fps__Win/Win SP___Glock 19

I tried the micrometer charge bar and it is not consistent. Perhaps it is better for bigger charges.

The 4.4 cc disc throws a consistent 5.4 grain charge. This is should be OK for range ammo, should it not?

I didn't try the next size up as I sure it would be 6 grains or more. They don't say whether that load is minimum or maximum but I'd rather stay lower for now.

There should be no harm to try the 5.4 grain charge, should there?

Thanks.

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The Bushmaster
November 21, 2008, 01:27 PM
Without knowing what powder they sold you [a bill of goods]. I would have no idea if that is a minimum or maximum powder charge.

Anybody else have a clue?

Walkalong
November 21, 2008, 01:37 PM
Since Wideners gives 5.7 Grs for that powder with that bullet, 5.4 should be fine.

That is a maximum charge they give.

Galil5.56
November 21, 2008, 01:43 PM
Mike,

Take this as constructive, but as a newly minted reloader, IMO you would be far better served by using a very common canister grade propellant, and even better if it's bulky. Other than Wiedener's and the probable manufacturer (Olin/St Marks), who knows exactly what you have but them. By the loads I see published I can take a pretty educated guess at what loads may work, but won't say.

Maybe try a can of WW231/HP38, Unique, Universal Clays, AA#5, Silhouette, HS-6, etc so that a LOT of folks can bounce ideas your way. As to your question, 5.4 seems reasonable, but the velocity will be very low, and should be well below WWB and Blazer Brass if that is what you used prior to reloading.

Walkalong
November 21, 2008, 01:50 PM
Take this as constructive, but as a newly minted reloader, IMO you would be far better served by using a very common canister grade propellantGood advise to any one just starting out. That said, there is nothing wrong with using a surplus data powder, it just takes more experience.

I didn't try the next size up as I sure it would be 6 grains or moreA good reason to one day invest in a good measure like Hornady (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=990979), RCBS (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=830897), Redding (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=241142), etc sell.

I really like my Redding 10X (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=226117) for loading pistol. Meters great, and repeatable settings.

NC-Mike
November 21, 2008, 02:05 PM
Good advise to any one just starting out. That said, there is nothing wrong with using a surplus data powder, it just takes more experience.

Well I didn't see anything wrong with it either, the price was certainly right. 82 dollars for 8 pounds. I figured that once I get the load recipe down, I will manufacture a few thousand of these rounds to stock my ammo cabinet.

That is the way I want to reload.

Sure that 5.7 grains of this powder is a maximum load when Remington UMC ammo has the same velocity?

And yes, there is no substitute for experience but that is what I'm getting right now and I also knew I could get some help here.

And I did buy some other powder and made sure it was "bread and butter" type powder. 2 pounds of W231 and 8 pounds of W748. I just thought this surplus powder would make some good cheap range ammo.

NC-Mike
November 21, 2008, 02:11 PM
So who here has reamed out a disc to make a "custom" charge?

If I open that 4.4 cc pocket up a little bit, I should be able to get it to drop 5.7 grains of this stuff... :evil:

Walkalong
November 21, 2008, 02:14 PM
I used to use a Hornady pistol measure with brass bushings. I had all 21, plus a couple of homemade ones made from 1/2" brass barstock, plus a few that I reamed out to a size in between. I would mark it so I knew. For instance, 12-M ( A # 12 bushing "modified")

Steve C
November 21, 2008, 02:27 PM
When a maximum load is given for surplus powder you should start at a 10% reduction or at 5.1grs. Surplus powders are often pull downs and are certainly not normalized so work up with your particular batch is more important. This nonsense of just starting at or near a max load is sloppy reloading practice and can get you into real pressure problems. Don't short cut load development, esp with surplus powders.

jfh
November 21, 2008, 02:29 PM
I've tweaked a (Lee) disk once. It was a bit tedious--IIRC, I did it with my Dremel with a small carbide bit in it, and polished.

If you decide to do this, I suspect that "polishing" the hogout is important--so don't overdue the first removal.

The powders I now use are not an issue with the charge bars, so I've dropped disk use. BTW, Steve C's advise in the preceding post is good stuff--heed it.

Jim H.

Galil5.56
November 21, 2008, 03:11 PM
Quote:
Good advise to any one just starting out. That said, there is nothing wrong with using a surplus data powder, it just takes more experience.

Well I didn't see anything wrong with it either

I didn't say wrong, I said far better served, an opinion I stand by. As a beginner, the fewer variables you have to deal with, the better... I also noted Widener's mentions:

"As there is no loading data for commercial powder (CPP), we worked up the loads below."

Nothing "wrong" with this by in and of itself, just that as a very new reloader I would stay with long standing lab developed loads using canister grade propellants that a TON of folks have used and can cross experience with. I like to save $$$ too, but say you bought an #8 canister of Unique from Powder Valley Inc for $93, and then loaded each round with 7 grains of powder. Your total savings with CPP would be $.18/100 rounds over using Unique.

However you reload, have fun, be safe, and welcome.

NC-Mike
November 21, 2008, 03:28 PM
Nothing "wrong" with this by in and of itself, just that as a very new reloader I would stay with long standing lab developed loads using canister grade propellants that a TON of folks have used and can cross experience with. I like to save $$$ too, but say you bought an #8 canister of Unique from Powder Valley Inc for $93, and then loaded each round with 7 grains of powder. Your total savings with CPP would be $.18/100 rounds over using Unique.

I hear what you're saying and had I had it to do over again, I might have got another powder. The "problem" was I ordered much of this stuff at once and the surplus powder appealed to me precisely because it was off the beaten path a bit. All the other components I choose were very "safe" so I was trying to spice it up a little... :)

I just loaded up 15 rounds with 5.4gr charge. I also have 15 rounds I weighed individually with a 5.7gr charge so I'll be able to compare the two.
It'll be good experience.

BTW, I don't believe this powder is military surplus. It was advertised as surplus commercial powder from a major manufacturer, Hence the "CPP." Commercial Pistol Powder...

As far as 5.7 grains being a max load, I kinda doubt that for two reasons. The 5.7gr load produces the same muzzle velocity as Remington UMC ammo and I don't think Wideners would publish a max load. Now that opinion is strictly off the seat of my pants and is very much reflective of my inexperience and failure to yet procure a load manual so I wouldn't be surprised if I was mistaken. I do have plans to order a manual tonight.

gandog56
November 21, 2008, 05:20 PM
I would need to know what kind of powder it is. Is it a flake powder? I have had hard times getting consistent throws using my Lee Auto-Disk powder measure using flake powders. Works a whole lot better using ball powders.

straight-shooter
November 21, 2008, 05:48 PM
I bought the Lee double disk kit and by combining two disks I get more choices for the charges that are dropped. I think this is a better choice verses reaming out a single disk. Just make sure the smaller disk is on top.

NC-Mike
November 21, 2008, 05:50 PM
Well I'm going to the range to see how these first 30 rounds I ever reloaded do.

Hopefully I'll be able to report back here...

http://www.clusterballoon.org/west_virginia/wv09.jpg


And BTW, its a spherical powder and Wideners has sold out of it.

TooTaxed
November 21, 2008, 06:37 PM
Your currently loaded rounds certainly won't be dangerous...they will be lower velocity than Widener's load, hitting the target slightly lower, and may even be more accurate.

The only problem you may have is that the load might not be powerful enough to operate your semi-automatic pistol slide reliably. At worst, you would have to simply operate the slide by hand each shot to eject the fired case and feed the next. Inconvenient, but no safety problem. You will probably want to increase the powder charge enough to operate the pistol reliably.

There are several things you can do if you need to increase the powder charge slightly. You can use your current 5.4 measure to load the charge onto a calibrated beam scale pan and finish off (add powder) using a powder trickler. Set the beam scale to the weight you want. You can trickle the powder a few grains at a time by filling a case part full with powder, holding it horizintally, and rotating it back and forth with your fingers, mouth over the powder pan, until the beam balances.

Or, you can make a dipper...take a small case and file it down until it holds the exact amount you want when leveled, twist a stiff wire around the case groove for a handle, and you are in business. You can mark the powder type and weight on the side of the case to avoid mistakes in future use.

Have fun!

Walkalong
November 21, 2008, 06:49 PM
As far as 5.7 grains being a max load, I kinda doubt that for two reasons. The 5.7gr load produces the same muzzle velocity as Remington UMC ammo and I don't think Wideners would publish a max load.
That is definitely the max they will recommend. It ain't a start load. ;)

NC-Mike
November 21, 2008, 09:41 PM
That is definitely the max they will recommend. It ain't a start load.

Well ya just might be right. I went out to the range with those reloads and some factory UMC. I shot ten factory loads to get a feel for them and then shot the 5.7 grain reloads. They did feel a little warmer than the factory loads but not in an extreme way.

What concerned me was the primers. I often heard people talk of reading primers and flattened primers and now I saw them myself. My primers were definitely flattened, some filling almost the whole primer pocket with no rounded edge left on the primer. One primer backed out of the case a tad and a couple looked as if they had the machining marks of the breech-face imprinted on them.

But, I saw absolutely no evidence of hard extraction. You couldn't even tell where the extractor was on the groove and the extractor itself had no brass on it. I just now chambered those fired rounds in the barrel and they still chamber well so maybe the flattened primers were due to the fact that these 5.7 grains loads were also same I put a little heavy crimp on? I crimped these necks to .375 and like I say, the rounds felt a little warmer and had a deeper report but nothing alarming. Here's a pic of the primers. The three on top are the ones that looked flattened and the one on the bottom is a factory load. The one and only primer that did back out significantly was in a WCC 10 case.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g312/Mike____Smith/Collection/Primers.jpg

So, I also brought along the rounds I loaded with 5.4 grains and crimped to
.378 but I never got to shoot them...

While I was loading the first three, I realized I screwed up the sequence on one and didn't prime a round till after I had charged it. I didn't know which one it was so I separated those rounds. I found a little bit of powder in the spent primer tube but I didn't think it was that much so I planned to shoot these three rounds first. I figured the round would still go off and I would just get rid of them that way instead of using the blasted inertia hammer. I should have used the inertia hammer and pulled them because the second of these "lite" rounds I fired squibbed out and stuck the bullet in the barrel. :uhoh:

Since I didn't have a rod to get it out, my range trip was now over. :(

If that first round I did get off had a full 5.4 grain charge, that should work just fine. I'll go back tomorrow and fire the rest of those off.

I shot these rounds in my FEG Hi-Power clone. It is my least expensive 9mm but also my favorite. Here it is broke down with the squib round removed. :)

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g312/Mike____Smith/Collection/bullet.jpg

The plus side of the trip besides the learning experience was the nice cache of brass I found. :D

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g312/Mike____Smith/Collection/brass.jpg

And here's a shot of my little press sans powder dispenser and safety prime.
That's the new workbench top I just made so the press would be sturdy and not move. I have more than a few thousand loaded rounds in the bottom of that bench so it don't move at all.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g312/Mike____Smith/Collection/press.jpg

RustyFN
November 21, 2008, 09:53 PM
That's the best part of shooting, coming home with more brass than you left with.:D I had trouble with the charge bar. I use the disks and find loads that are good enough without having to throw something in between. The disks have been throwing very consistant drops for me.
Rusty

NC-Mike
November 21, 2008, 10:03 PM
That's the best part of shooting, coming home with more brass than you left with. I had trouble with the charge bar. I use the disks and find loads that are good enough without having to throw something in between. The disks have been throwing very consistant drops for me.
Rusty

I think I'll be able to live with the charge the disk throws as well. :)

It did seem to throw a consistent charge. I've heard it is a good idea to throw a couple charges before you get started just to get everything setup and moving right.

RustyFN
November 21, 2008, 10:11 PM
Every time I sit down to reload I weigh a powder drop to check the weight. I will weigh ten of them before I start to reload.
Rusty

Walkalong
November 21, 2008, 10:14 PM
What concerned me was the primers
Those primers look fine. They are flat in the middle showing some pressure sign, but they still have a rounded edge. You may, however, find the 5.4 Gr charge more pleasant to shoot.

When you flatten the primer all the way to the edge, completely filling the primer pocket edge to edge, then you must "go to Jail without passing GO". ;)

I've heard it is a good idea to throw a couple charges before you get started just to get everything setup and moving right I always run 8 to 10 charges through my measure before starting. I also do that before weighing charges for a lot of powder. After I get a setting on my Redding 10X measure, I will just dial back to it unless I change lots of powder. Lets say 18.1 on the 10X is 6.9 Grs of AA #5, which is slightly under max for a 115 Gr FMJ in 9MM. I just dial it back to 18.1, run a few charges through, double check one or two on the scale, and start loading.

NC-Mike
November 21, 2008, 11:09 PM
Those primers look fine. They are flat in the middle showing some pressure sign, but they still have a rounded edge. You may, however, find the 5.4 Gr charge more pleasant to shoot.

When you flatten the primer all the way to the edge, completely filling the primer pocket edge to edge, then you must "go to Jail" without passing GO".

The picture is not that great. They are definitely flattened and have a sharp edge with no round edge left.

They didn't stick or extract hard so that's why I wondered if the heavy crimp had anything to do with it.

But I do think I will be happy with 5.4 grain charge.

NC-Mike
November 22, 2008, 12:43 AM
Here's a better pic of the primers I think look flattened. The single round on the top is a factory round.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g312/Mike____Smith/Collection/Primers001.jpg

NavyLCDR
November 22, 2008, 12:56 AM
STEP #1, quit messing around with stuff you know very little about, get a good relaoding manual and read the intstructional section.

Then load a batch up from 8 lbs of retail powder that actually has real published data and see how things are supposed to operate under normal conditions.

Once you've figured out how things are supposed to work, by the book, with good published data, then you experiment with fun stuff like 8mm Lebel that only has 20 year old data available for powder they don't make anymore.

NC-Mike
November 22, 2008, 01:04 AM
STEP #1, quit messing around with stuff you know very little about, get a good relaoding manual and read the intstructional section.


Buddy if I did that, I would never have any fun. :p

Everything is fine and under control. Tomorrow I'll shoot those 5.4 grain charged rounds, read the tea leaves on it and then probably make 1,500 rounds of the same recipe. :)

Walkalong
November 22, 2008, 09:22 AM
The picture is not that great. They are definitely flattened and have a sharp edge with no round edge left. Even in the new pic, they look fine. Yes, they show more pressure than the factory load, but not excessive. Your factory primer may have a harder cup, who knows. Maybe softer too. That is only one reason we say you can't judge pressure by looking at primers. By the time it is obvious in primers, you are at the top or most likely over max. If you severely flattened a primer in .38 Spl or .45 ACP, you would be 2 times plus over max for that cartridge because they operate at low pressures.

Here's a better pic of the primers I think look flattened
That look in the new pic is not what I described when I talked about fully flattened primers showing distinct over pressure signs.

If your disc throws 5.4 Grs and it shoots well and you like the feel, that is what I would go with.

The Bushmaster
November 22, 2008, 09:33 AM
All of the photos of the primers look normal. In fact yours aren't as flattened as mine are. And I am under maximum powder charge in most of my reloads. I sometimes wonder if factory powders or primers (I know the powders are) are just enough different from reloading components to make the difference in primer flattening.

If you understand how and why primers flatten, you wouldn't worry about them. When your firing pin hits the primer it pushes the cartridge forward in the chamber before it sets it off. Then the powder ignites and expands the case against the chamber wall. This pressure, in turn, pushes the primer out just a bit. As the pressure falls and the case starts to spring back to normal the case is slamed against the breach face reseating the primer and thus flattening it.

Over pressure signs seen on primers are pierced primers, cratered primers and soot around the edge of the primer. Flattened primers are not a sign of over pressure.

I do wish you'd get a name brand powder that has known published data...

rfwobbly
November 22, 2008, 10:12 AM
"Buddy if I did that, I would never have any fun. :p"

I think what our friend was trying to warn you about is that the 9mm is no cartridge to play around with. It's very small case volume means that extremely small powder changes can be the difference between a good shooting cartridge, and blowing up your gun and/or hand.


"I do wish you'd get a name brand powder that has known published data..."

Let me second that.

NC-Mike
November 22, 2008, 10:56 AM
Well thanks for both the information and the concerns gentlemen. I truly do appreciate both.

Wideners has been selling that particular powder for a while. In fact there was a post about the powder on THR back in august so plenty of people have been using this powder.

Wideners gave three loads they had worked up for 9mm, 40, and 45. I want to load 9mm and 45 and nothing else with this powder so I figured there would be no problem and I really haven't had a problem yet.

I'm going to the range in a little bit to try those lighter loads. I have a feeling I will have found a good safe load that I can run off in a very safe efficient way on the equipment I own.

All in all I am very happy about the progress I have made so far and what I have learned from this process. I honestly never thought I would even reload 9mm but when I got my tumbler and cleaned up the 45 ACP, 38 Special and 357 Magnum brass I had on hand and compared that amount of brass to the thousands of 9mm brass I had collected, I knew I would be reloading 9mm as well. :evil:

Galil5.56
November 22, 2008, 11:35 AM
NC-Mike,

You seem to have a good outlook, willing to learn, admit your troubles and are keeping a positive attitude. I saw you had a squib, and this concerns me a little as it could have also been just as easilly been an overcharge. As I mentioned in my initial post, a bulky moderate speed powder like Unique is a very good powder to use in 9mm, beginner or otherwise. Even at "normal" charges, it nearly fills the case, and will greatly spill over if even a little more powder is added. It's also very forgiving, gives great performance over a wide range of velocities, and is proven over a span of 100 years.

Many ball propellants are very dense, and can result in a 2.5-3x charge in a 9mm case. My best piece of advice that I have stuck to is never seat a bullet until you visually check the case with good lighting for powder level 100%. I have to say I am pleased that you did not start with the absolute fastest powder to start. I have seen more posts from beginners with KB's and other problems that always seem to have "Titegroup" or "Clays" mentioned. IMO, these are terrible powders to start with in 9mm, as they give very little leeway from min to max charges, and if setback does happen while learning how to set up dies properly, pressure spikes are sharp without the somewhat more forgiving nature of slower powders. Another benefit of a larger charge of slower propellant is it can also act as a physical stop for the bullet should it be pushed back.

Keep at it, be safe, and have fun.

lgbloader
November 22, 2008, 12:10 PM
STEP #1, quit messing around with stuff you know very little about, get a good relaoding manual and read the intstructional section.


+1

I just loaded up 15 rounds with 5.4gr charge. I also have 15 rounds I weighed individually with a 5.7gr charge so I'll be able to compare the two.
It'll be good experience.


How are you comparing the two? are you using a chrono or are you going by feel?

Sorry Mate but as a newbie and without using a chrono, this is like a shot in the dark. Some of your posts kinda scare me a little for your safety.

Experience happens not overnight so avoid the urge to "spice things up" as you said earlier.

Some of us have seen both good and bad when it comes to Handloading and over the last 20 years or so of doing it myself, I never had a problem because I was taught to stick to the general rules of reloading. Above all, safety first. Take no short cuts.

No man can tell another what to do but i would not risk my eyes, hand, face, life or the persons standing next to me at the range if I wasn't 100% sure my loads are right. There is a responsible to reckon with. I would really get to intimately know the basics of Handloading and load developement before you try to cut corners. There will be plenty of time to "spice things up" later on down the freeway.

Cheers, Mate.

LGB

NC-Mike
November 22, 2008, 12:34 PM
+1

Sorry Mate but as a newbie and without using a chrono, this is like a shot in the dark. Some of your posts kinda scare me a little for your safety.

Experience happens not overnight so avoid the urge to "spice things up" as you said earlier.

Some of us have seen good and bad when it comes to Handloading and over the last 20 years or so of doing it myself, I never had a problem because I was taught to stick to the general rules of reloading. Above all, safety first. Take no short cuts.


As I said, I appreciate the sentiments and everything is just fine. I bought a commercial pistol powder from a very reputable dealer who has been selling that same product for a considerable time and followed their load data.

No worries mate, it's all good. :)

And I'm all about safety. I rebuild lethal service rated industrial machinery in some very hazardous locations. I know safety and what precise tolerances and exacting production standards are...

lgbloader
November 22, 2008, 12:46 PM
As I said, I appreciate the sentiments and everything is just fine. I bought a commercial pistol powder from a very reputable dealer who has been selling that same product for a considerable time and followed their load data.


And I'm all about safety. I rebuild lethal service rated industrial machinery in some very hazardous locations. I know safety and what precise tolerances and exacting production standards are...


Mike,

I don't think the powder or the reputable dealer is the problem in question, Mate. And we are not rebuilding lethal service rated industrial machinery here, either.

I have never done what you do (rebuild lethal service rated industrial machinery)so if I started, I would take your advise, since you have obviously more experience, before I venture out too far on my own.

Just my .02 cents worth, Mate.

Keep us posted on your progress and good luck and good shooting.

Cheers...

LGB

RustyFN
November 22, 2008, 01:33 PM
Mike if you don't mind me asking what did you pay for the surplus powder. Powder is the cheapest part of reloading and I have never found much of a price difference between surplus and new powder to make surplus worth while.
Rusty

Jim Watson
November 22, 2008, 01:41 PM
I see nothing wrong with using the Widener's powder with normal loading procedures and safeguards. To me this means:

First: Not screwing up your loading procedures with such novelties as priming a case after the powder was already in it, losing enough powder to stick a bullet, and firing the heavier (maximum published) load with no buildup after finding the lighter load screwed up.

Second: Those primers do not look good to me, contrary to some other posts. Such "coining" of breechface toolmarks is a sign of high pressure, even if the cups are not as flat as a pancake.

If 5.4 grains will function the gun, quit messing around with the load. I looked at the so-called "data" on the Wideners jug and it does not match any cannister powder. That is not necessarily bad, it is not even unusual, wholesale bulk powders used by commercial loaders don't have to meet retail powder specs as long as the commercial loader has the correct specifications or the equipment to determine them. The problem is that the loads are different from caliber to caliber in a progression unlike powders I have data for. Tells me that it is either an oddball powder or that Wideners might not have the equipment and expertise to "work up" loads for an unknown powder.

Y'all be careful, now, you hear?

Walkalong
November 22, 2008, 02:29 PM
If your disc throws 5.4 Grs and it shoots well and you like the feel, that is what I would go with.
From my earlier post.

I guess Jim and I agree on that. :)

I say, Jim must have better eyes that me. I can't see the "coining" of breechface toolmarks, but if it is doing that, it is definitely some pretty good pressure involved.

And I also agree, do be careful now, ya hear.

The Bushmaster
November 22, 2008, 03:03 PM
I see breechface marks on the primers, but not on the case head...

NC-Mike
November 22, 2008, 04:57 PM
Well I shot the other 15 rounds loaded at 5.4 grains and I couldn't tell any difference in recoil between them and factory rounds and that probably means nothing...

I staggered 3 reloads with 4 factory rounds in the mag and they all felt the same and shot to the same POI and again, that probably don't mean much.

The primers still concern me. This batch is not as flattened out as the first but they still do not look anywhere near a fired factory round. Here is a pic of some of the fired reloads and one fired factory round.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g312/Mike____Smith/Collection/Primercomparison003.jpg


And OK, I do realize and acknowledge I'm doing this backwards. The load that wideners worked up is I don't know what. I can go lower. 5.2 grains or even 5 grains. I want to see primers that look like factory fired rounds before I am happy.

Jim Watson
November 22, 2008, 05:05 PM
Picture is not well enough focused to see tool marks, but the corners and indents are much more rounded than the 5.7 batch. I am more comfortable with this load.

What brand of primers are you using? I once scared myself with flattened Federal primers in a load that gave no pressure indications with Winchesters.

Recoil "feel" and POI on target are not a reliable indication of chamber pressure or velocity. Hardly any handloader has a pressure gauge setup and relatively few have chronographs. The only thing you have to go by is function of the gun and very minor changes in the appearance of brass and primer, which are not very reliable themselves.

Walkalong
November 22, 2008, 05:27 PM
Looks like you have found a load, although you were working in reverse. ;)

When I finally sprung for a chrono ($100), I figured out what Jim mentioned, you cannot tell velocity or pressure from recoil etc. I hot rod very, very few loads. I like to stay "comfy" with my reloads.

NC-Mike
November 22, 2008, 11:37 PM
Using Federal Primers.

Here's a link to a higher res pic

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g312/Mike____Smith/Collection/Primercomparison004.jpg

They are better than the last batch but still have some breechface imprinting and flattening.

The Bushmaster
November 22, 2008, 11:51 PM
NC-Mike...They look normal!!! Unless they are pierced, cratered or leaking soot from the outer edge they are just fine!! They are supposed to be flat...

When you see breechface printing on the brass head part of the case...Then worry. It is normal to see breechface printing on the primer...After a few years of shooting that pistol the breechface will smooth up...:rolleyes:

Jim Watson
November 22, 2008, 11:52 PM
With the famously soft Federal primers, that is probably not a bad load. As I said, I saw fired Federal primers like that with a handbook load that gives no adverse signs with Winchester or CCI. I still wouldn't push the top load of a no-name powder but you are probably ok where you are at 5.4.

NC-Mike
November 23, 2008, 09:03 PM
NC-Mike...They look normal!!! Unless they are pierced, cratered or leaking soot from the outer edge they are just fine!! They are supposed to be flat...

When you see breechface printing on the brass head part of the case...Then worry. It is normal to see breechface printing on the primer...After a few years of shooting that pistol the breechface will smooth up...

With the famously soft Federal primers, that is probably not a bad load. As I said, I saw fired Federal primers like that with a handbook load that gives no adverse signs with Winchester or CCI. I still wouldn't push the top load of a no-name powder but you are probably ok where you are at 5.4

Well thank you gentlemen.

With my limited experience looking at fired hand-loads using Federal primers it is the way they looked compared to fired factory loads gave me some cause for concern. The fired factory rounds look like they never even touch the breech-face. No imprinting or coining of them at all.

That said I did make up fifteen loads using a 5gr charge. This loads did feel a little lighter than the factory loads and that probably does mean something. The pistol still cycled fine with this load and the primers do look "better"

I thing I realize now. I will need a chrono...

Here's the primers from this batch. As far as reading primers go, there was definite differences between the 5.7, 5.4 and 5 grain batches. Some of these primers still have some coining, just not as prominent as the other loads so I would be inclined to agree with both of you that the 5.4 grain batch was just fine. Hell, the 5.7 grain batch was probably OK as well cause there was no sign of the rounds sticking but I'm taking a guess at that. These 5gr loads were definitely a light round. If these primers are still imprinting at this charge, there is no getting around it. Why is it the factory rounds don't do the same thing?

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g312/Mike____Smith/Collection/Primercomparison5gr003.jpg

NC-Mike
November 23, 2008, 09:10 PM
Mike,

I don't think the powder or the reputable dealer is the problem in question, Mate. And we are not rebuilding lethal service rated industrial machinery here, either.

I have never done what you do (rebuild lethal service rated industrial machinery)so if I started, I would take your advise, since you have obviously more experience, before I venture out too far on my own.

Just my .02 cents worth, Mate.

Keep us posted on your progress and good luck and good shooting.

Cheers...

LGB

Didn't mean for that to come off as arrogant. I just wanted to convey the fact that I have a good background on which to draw from.

I realize I have a lot to learn about reloading but I want to learn and am doing so little by little. I have all the things I need to start reloading 38/357, 45 and .223 right now but I won't I will be touching that stuff till I get this 9mm round right and have made and fired a few hundred of them. Then I'll go to the 38, 45, 357 and 223 in that order.

NC-Mike
November 23, 2008, 09:56 PM
RustyFN

Mike if you don't mind me asking what did you pay for the surplus powder.


82.00 for 8 lbs

Jim Watson
November 23, 2008, 11:50 PM
Why is it the factory rounds don't do the same thing?

Because Remington doesn't use Federal primers. There IS a difference, brand to brand.
Probably an effect from REloads in used brass, too. Hmm. Something to test this winter, I have some Federal ammo that has been up the feed ramp about as many times as I care to send it. I can experiment with that.

NC-Mike
November 26, 2008, 05:53 PM
Because Remington doesn't use Federal primers. There IS a difference, brand to brand.
Probably an effect from REloads in used brass, too. Hmm. Something to test this winter, I have some Federal ammo that has been up the feed ramp about as many times as I care to send it. I can experiment with that.



I just paid a visit to the Bass Pro Shop and bought some Remington, CCI and Winchester SP primers. I'm going to load up ten 5.4 grain rounds with each primer and see exactly how they compare to the "soft" Federal primers.

I'll probably get that done Friday as tomorrow I'll be "celebrating" the holiday... :evil:

This will be interesting. At least to me. :D

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