Bushmaster gas piston or gas tube?


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SamG.
November 21, 2008, 10:05 PM
Hey guys,

My Dad is buying an AR before Obama Bin Biden gets in office (and because everyone needs one). He has been looking at the standard bushmaster gas piston and the gas tube. Which 0ne would you prefer? Anything that you guys know about the gas piston Bushmaster would be much appreciated: Part interchangeability, accuracy, reliability, etc..


Gas Piston

Cheers,
SamG.

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gvnwst
November 21, 2008, 10:10 PM
Is he wanting it for SHTF? If so, the bushy GP system is good. It is based off of the POF system, not quite as good, it has more springs, ect... I ahve a POF, and it is as good as you could wish for.

The accuracy of the bushy is about 1 MOA, they say not much of a difference in the satndard to the GP one.

I prefer the GP, just because i like my firearms reliable. Mine is like a M1 or AK in reliability, but with AR ergonomics.

SamG.
November 21, 2008, 10:17 PM
How are they compared to the gas tube in terms of nasty condition reliability? I'd assume much better, but compared to an AK sort?

gvnwst
November 21, 2008, 10:29 PM
My POF makes it clean. Cleaner than my bolties. You have to scrub the BCG after a few rounds with the DI, more scrubbing with more rounds, but the GP makes it get 'that' dirty, and no more. I have fired 2 rounds, and it is no more dirty when i put 100+ rounds through it.

While i am ashamed to admit it, i have never fired a AK....:uhoh:

Look up some of the reliability tests. I have known people to put 12,000+ rounds through it, no malfunctions. 4,000 without cleaning.

Lone_Gunman
November 21, 2008, 11:08 PM
The gas piston is an unnecessary addition, and a waste of money.

Frog48
November 21, 2008, 11:11 PM
I've never shot a piston AR, but I have shot the heck out of "normal" AR's. I've never had a problem with reliability. Maybe I've just been lucky.

earlthegoat2
November 21, 2008, 11:12 PM
Though I tend to agree with The Lone Gunman on this one there is at least some theoretical merit behind the gas piston idea. That being the cleanliness factor.

That said, the whole of my AR experience which consists of military involvment is that the standard gas tube is reliable enough as it is.

Javelin
November 21, 2008, 11:16 PM
I've never shot a piston AR, but I have shot the heck out of "normal" AR's. I've never had a problem with reliability. Maybe I've just been lucky.

Your not alone. The standard gas impingment cycling is very reliable (though dirty).

If you were going to go all out I would skip the gas piston and go with a Noveske Switchblock upper. This system will prove to be the most reliable for the M4 as there are no springs or moving parts to rely on.


:)

Lone_Gunman
November 21, 2008, 11:32 PM
there is at least some theoretical merit behind the gas piston idea. That being the cleanliness factor.

Yes I agree, gas piston systems are going to be cleaner than a direct impingement system.

Clean your gun periodically and its not a problem though.

SamG.
November 22, 2008, 12:11 AM
Anyone have links to a reliability test on the GP?

WardenWolf
November 22, 2008, 12:21 AM
Get a gas piston. It'll be a LOT more reliable.

gvnwst
November 22, 2008, 12:22 AM
I don't have one, but waht is the purpouse of this rifle? As i stated above, for a SHTF rifle, the GP. For a 'sporting' rifle, DI is fine.

jerkface11
November 22, 2008, 12:26 AM
Get a gas piston. It'll be a LOT more reliable.

How is that possible? AR's go thousands of rounds without stopages will the piston add another thousand to that? Why do I doubt that?

Bottom line is the pistons are a marketing tool. They don't improve the gun enough to bother with them. They sure do cost more though.

WardenWolf
November 22, 2008, 12:33 AM
Thousands of rounds consecutively without cleaning? Please excuse my cough. Direct gas impingement makes for a little lighter weapon, but it's NOT good for long-term reliability.

Pistons are a means of keeping the fouling out of the working action of the gun, and limiting how far back the powder fouling can get. They do wonders for long-term reliability. I'm sorry, I'd rather NOT have a rifle that defecates where it eats.

jerkface11
November 22, 2008, 12:50 AM
Why would you go thousands of rounds without cleaning a gun? You're going to clean everytime you have a shooting session. Whether you're shooting cans, paper, or zombies.

Pistons do not belong in ARs.

WardenWolf
November 22, 2008, 01:07 AM
Whether it "belongs" isn't the question; that's a matter of personal opinion. The question is whether it makes it a better weapon. And the answer is yes.

jerkface11
November 22, 2008, 01:21 AM
It doesn't make a better weapon. It contributes nothing while increasing weight and costing more. I'll run my DI gun against ANY piston set up on the market. And since I didn't waste my money on a piston I can afford more ammo and magazines.

taliv
November 22, 2008, 01:22 AM
The question is whether it makes it a better weapon. And the answer is yes.

the answer is no as far as I'm concerned.

I've seen no proof the POF/bushamster is reliable. how long has it been out? how many versions of it do they have now? hmm...

how hard is it to get spare parts when it breaks? how hard will it be after a ban?

s2r
November 22, 2008, 02:27 AM
I just got a Bushmaster upper with their Gas Piston retrofit kit installed on it. Took it to the range yesterday and had 2 FTF out of 45 rounds and the bolt only locked back on the empty mag once out of 4 partial mags. I tried 3 different types of ammo. Called the dealer I purchased it from and he said I should shoot it more to break it in:rolleyes:(went through that crap with Kimber:cuss:).

So back to the range I went today with 4 different types of ammo, 7 different mags and 2 different lowers. 80 rounds later I had 5 FTF, and the bolt only locked back on the empty mag 4 times out of 15 partial mags. Needless to say the DI is going on this one. I would rather have to clean more than nurse this thing along.

I can't speak for all GP sytems but the one I got SUCKS!!

WardenWolf
November 22, 2008, 02:51 AM
I'd contact Bushmaster and have them check it out. FTF isn't a piston-related issue. It's a problem with with the way it's stripping ammo off the magazine, most likely a problem with the bolt.

SamG.
November 22, 2008, 09:18 AM
Thank's guys this really helps! :)

Lone_Gunman
November 22, 2008, 09:31 AM
FTF isn't a piston-related issue.

A piston can cause a failure to feed, if it is allowing the rifle to short stroke. This could happen if the piston is binding on something as it moves.

jerkface11
November 22, 2008, 12:00 PM
New AR's often short stroke. There's parkerizing on the rails the bolt carrier rides on. After a couple hundred rounds it should start be fine. Till then you probly need to use hotter ammo.

gvnwst
November 22, 2008, 01:30 PM
I've seen no proof the POF/bushamster is reliable

Both these companies have done extensive testing google it, it should tun up something.

taliv
November 22, 2008, 01:46 PM
like any company is going to say their product is crap...

are you saying the reason you've said it's reliable is because the company said so?

gvnwst
November 22, 2008, 02:23 PM
No. As i stated above, i have a POF. I look at tests not oonly done by the company, but review sites, magazines, and i have watched vidoes of them. Enough to convince me.

Do i believe that a GP system is a must have for everyone? No, casual shooters do not need them. that is why i asked what the rifle was for. If it is needed, i will reccomend it. if not, i won't.


This thread has compelled me to do my own torture test of it. I will try to fire as much ammo as possible over the course of a few months, not cleaning it once.
:)

Coronach
November 22, 2008, 02:43 PM
IMHO? Go with the direct gas. It's dirtier, but dirt from the gas system isn't what ties up the gun. The piston uppers are heavier, more expensive and more complex, for little practical benefit.

Mike

taliv
November 22, 2008, 02:49 PM
No. As i stated above, i have a POF

cool, but i have way too many friends who own guns but have only put 20 rounds through them and claim they're utterly reliable.

i'd normally encourage torture testing, but given the current political climate and ammo availability, i probably wouldn't spend thousands of rounds just to see if a gun worked.

possum
November 22, 2008, 03:20 PM
go with the standard set up, the gas piston driven ar's seem to be not holding up through courses and hard use. the only one that has is the barrett and there is only 2 right now (in 5.56) but they are supposed to hit the civi market soon.

btw i own a bushmaster and this is my second one and i have shot over a dozen other bushmasters. they have all been good to go, so you have a great choice, just stick with the "old fashion" system. btw my bushmaster just surpassed 3700rds today, after 520rds in training were fired today.

gvnwst
November 22, 2008, 04:16 PM
@taliv

That is why i said over a few months. I am just going to sstop cleaning it, so whenever i shoot, i will mark the number of rounds. I will see how many i can go without one malfunction......

Average Joe
November 22, 2008, 05:01 PM
I would prefer the piston, I just don't like dirty gas in my chamber.

gvnwst
November 22, 2008, 05:15 PM
The piston uppers are heavier, more expensive and more complex, for little practical benefit.


Heavier (very little) and more expensive, but more complex? All that is added is a piston and rod. you don't have to worry about twisting the gas tube, and dissasembly is easier. If my knowledge of DI ARs is correct, the DI system is just as complicated, if not more. I think that the Bushmaster system uses a spring on the op rod, but the POF does not, it uses the buffer spring.

SamG.
November 22, 2008, 06:12 PM
This thread has compelled me to do my own torture test of it. I will try to fire as much ammo as possible over the course of a few months, not cleaning it once.


Sounds cool to me :D Go for it!

also I found these diagrams of both the gas piston and gas tube, just to clear up which is more complex: If my knowledge of DI ARs is correct, the DI system is just as complicated, if not more.

http://www.bushmaster.com/faqs/attachments/409/gp%20001.pdf
and:

http://www.recguns.com/Pictures/Images/Xm15Diagram.gif

gvnwst
November 22, 2008, 06:23 PM
Yeah, the bushy GP system is more complicated than the POF one. On mine, it is the gas block, plug, piston, and piston rod. Basically, the gas tube gets replaced by a piston and rod (which actually could both be one peice in theory).

rcmodel
November 22, 2008, 06:33 PM
In the event Mr. Obama and Cronies do get a total ban put in place:

You will still be able to get M16/AR15 gas-gun parts at the local Swap & Shop!

The same cannot be said of a piston gun, that so far has limited production & circulation of spare parts available.

rcmodel

H2O MAN
November 22, 2008, 06:39 PM
I looked at everything and decided on a 16" upper with a mid length gas system.
Once I assemble everything it will have a fixed A2 rifle stock with rifle buffer and spring.
This should make for a really smooth shooting, extra reliable general purpose AR.


I found that the AR gas piston is best suited to SBRs with sound suppressors.

SamG.
November 22, 2008, 06:56 PM
In the event Mr. Obama and Cronies do get a total ban put in place:

You will still be able to get M16/AR15 gas-gun parts at the local Swap & Shop!

The same cannot be said of a piston gun, that so far has limited production & circulation of spare parts available.


I agree

s2r
November 22, 2008, 09:49 PM
New AR's often short stroke. There's parkerizing on the rails the bolt carrier rides on. After a couple hundred rounds it should start be fine. Till then you probly need to use hotter ammo.


The guy at Bushmaster said "if it did not take off after 10 or 12 rounds there was a problem". As far as ammo I tried Lake City M855. I have owned about 9different AR's and shot thousands of rounds through them (including wolf) and never had one short stroke.

taliv
November 22, 2008, 10:17 PM
All that is added is a piston and rod. you don't have to worry about twisting the gas tube, and dissasembly is easier. If my knowledge of DI ARs is correct, the DI system is just as complicated, if not more.

now you're just being silly.

on what planet is 1 part with no springs just as complicated if not more than 9 parts with two springs?

i don't think you know either system.


New AR's often short stroke.

i've got to admit, i've never experienced any break-in issues. all of mine have worked from the get go (except for the two I put adjustable gas blocks on which i obviously tweaked for a few dozen rounds to get just the right amount of gas, but i don't think that really counts)

gvnwst
November 22, 2008, 10:28 PM
on what planet is 1 part with no springs just as complicated if not more than 9 parts with two springs?

i don't think you know either system.


I have said that my POF does not have any extra springs, just teh buffer spring.

What i was meaning about DI being complicated, IIRC, the gas goes INTO the BCG, pushing the BC and the bolt in oppisite directions. This to me is more complicated than a piston just pushing on the BC, as in my POF. Feel free to correct me on the workings of the DI system, just don't be mean about it.

:)

taliv
November 22, 2008, 10:59 PM
:) sorry i got a little snippy

Got a link to a diagram of your system? does it really only have two parts? there's no spring inside the gas block either?

gvnwst
November 22, 2008, 11:02 PM
No, but if you look at my thread i have a pic of the internals. there are three pieces, the piston, the rod (as stated above, these could be combined, i don't know why they werent...) and the plug. there is no spring in the housing, unless it is permenant. POF made a deal to use no extra springs, that is why i got this over the bushy.

EDIT:

I posted pics below.

gvnwst
November 22, 2008, 11:09 PM
well, here is a pic of the POF intenals:

http://i362.photobucket.com/albums/oo64/gvnwst/ARinternals.jpg

The bolt:
http://i362.photobucket.com/albums/oo64/gvnwst/ARbolt.jpg

SamG.
November 22, 2008, 11:13 PM
gvnwst how much do the POF go for?

gvnwst
November 22, 2008, 11:17 PM
.............................

I paid $2,000 for mine. That is the top model though, i think the base (same stuff, 16" bbl vs 18") is about $1600. I also have a FFL that charges me nothing more than it costs him. It is expensive, but so are Noveske, LMT ect. POF is the equal of those companies, IMO.

Wanta B
November 24, 2008, 02:31 PM
With a bit of searching you can get POF's base upper for 1160.00...POF is what I have now,I was going to get a Bushmaster too but somebody else got to it first.Hearing the rumor about Bushmaster intentionaly keeping the Masada off the market makes me feel glad NOT to have made the aquisition.

Anyhow I have three DI Bushmasters and have had trouble with them only after being submerged in water...once with sand...a couple of times from being dirty.I have not had any trouble with the POF in any way shape or form so far with around 15,000 rounds through it.By the way I have been torture testing this one.Great system! Long ago I felt the DI was secound best to an op-rod.Does the DI work,yes.However look at the issues that they have had as compared to op-rod types.In the long run my belief is that an op-rod is hands down more reliable.I know the DAEWOO has had some issues,at least I have heard that but out of the 7 myself and a couple of others that I shoot with have found they eat the ARs for lunch.Well maybe not for luch but they are more reliable in hard use.AK OP-ROD with AR lower=awesome!!So I am very happy with the POF because other than the DI I realy like the basic american "Black Gun".

Now barring all that stuff I HAVE to agree with many of the other folks that do to spare parts and if you do not have to submerge the rifle ever the DI rifles do just fine.Just keep 'em clean!

Wanta B

Wanta B
November 24, 2008, 02:35 PM
Weight..!! Honestly who truefuly notices a couple of ounces?!

Wanta B

esmith
November 24, 2008, 02:46 PM
The main selling point of the piston uppers is the thought that they are more reliable. But think about it, GP uppers are more expensive than some of the best DI uppers. I personally believe with a GP AR you are paying a lot for little gain. A LMT, Noveske or Colt AR will act reliably enough.

jerkface11
November 24, 2008, 03:10 PM
A DPMS is reliable enough. If you really want a piston why not get a gun designed for one? Like a nice Saiga.

jmar254
November 24, 2008, 09:33 PM
I took my AR to the range for the first time and had too many FTFs to mention, after I got home and opened it up it was pretty dry, from sitting on the shelf waiting for me to buy it. I think I'll oil the crap out of it and run some more through it. NOTE about the Bushmaster Chrome lined barrel, they recommend running a two / three hundred rounds through it before giving the barrel a good cleaning.

ServiceSoon
November 24, 2008, 11:02 PM
Does anybody disagree that the gas piston is the future of the AR platform? Why?

I hate this defeatist attitude we have been seeing in the last few weeks. Your right's are less likely to disppear if you fight for them.

MTMilitiaman
November 25, 2008, 12:31 AM
Okay I won't say anything specifically on the Bushmaster/POF or other piston assemblies for the AR, but generally speaking, to assume that blowing all that crud back into the receiver does not have some derogatory effect on reliability is asinine. You can only drink so much Kool Aid, people.

The DI system has proven good enough for government work, as they say, but it makes the rifle a dirty, nasty bi--um, "female canine." The AR's DI gas system is getting no love in the immitation department. If it worked as well as AR Kool Aid drinkers thought it did, there would be other designs on the market immitating it. Alas, there is not. Piston driven systems, in particular short-piston assemblies, however, are the current rage, and reliability testing is confirming that, whether or not you want to admit it, this is for good reason.

Whether or not a piston driven rifle is generally more reliable than a DI rifle isn't up for debate. It is, for all intents and purposes, verifiable fact. DI will not be present on the rifle that replaces the M16, and once that happens, it will likely go the way of the do-do. The only thing left to debate is how much it really matters, esp given the demands of most civilian users. But even disregarding any increase in reliability, I think anything that makes the rifle run cooler and easier to clean bears consideration on its own.

That said, I'd look into a SIG556 before I considered an AR with a op-rod conversion. The SIG system is older, more mature, and proven.

Wanta B
November 25, 2008, 01:48 PM
VERY good point that if the DI was all that we would see it being used in all sorts of systems.It does work and quite well,depending on what it is being used for.In short however when reliability is the issue op-rod systems are better,period.Accuracy with an op-rod platform...I shouldn't even have to go there!

Now as to the SIG...It is a great rifle,at least my friend's is.My take on that is although I personaly have no trouble learning a new weapon system and rather enjoy it there are those that feel more comfortable with what they are familiar with,so the transition to AR OP-ROD makes a mess of sence.Not to mention all those parts one might already have,as I do.Hmm,:scrutiny:a SIG of my own might be nice tho' seeing how Bushmaster seems to be dragging their heals with the Masada.:rolleyes:

Wanta B

gvnwst
November 25, 2008, 02:20 PM
That and with the piston AR, you can still take advantage of all the aftermarket parts/uppers/accessories. I don't think that the 556 has anywhere near the number and diversity of caartridges and barrel makers that are available for the AR. Or other things like triggers.

jerkface11
November 25, 2008, 02:23 PM
DI will not be present on the rifle that replaces the M16, and once that happens, it will likely go the way of the do-do.

You've got a crystal ball and you wasted it to find the answer to that question?

Wanta B
November 25, 2008, 02:24 PM
lol!!

Hk Dan
November 25, 2008, 02:40 PM
USPSA's "Front Sight" magazine ran an article comparing 6 gas piston systems. It was very complete! The author's conclusion was that the gas piston conversion did nothing practical to improve the rifle. I hate to say it, but I agree. I had planned on putting a CMMG unit on one of mine. Reading the story of how he had to fabricate a tool to clean the rammed in carbon out of the piston reciever. He had jams on different units due to that carbon fouling.

After reading that, I revised my plan to put a conversion kit on my rifles. I figured that $450 will buy a lot of patches, brake cleaner and gun oil.

Dan

WardenWolf
November 25, 2008, 02:59 PM
The problem with many piston setups is they're trying to keep it too similar to a standard AR, with that tiny gas tube and an equally tiny piston. Let's face the truth: the piston part of an AK is where it shines. It has a wide piston with a lot of surface area, that's designed so that there can be some blowby and it will still work, thereby eliminating most problems with gas fouling by distributing it over a longer length and reducing surface contact with the piston with a star-shaped tube. Also much of the powder is vented through the tube's vent holes.

The problem is that they keep trying to make every single part of an AR a precision piece, even the parts that don't need to be for the rifle to perform just the same. The piston needs to become more AK-like.

Wanta B
November 25, 2008, 03:40 PM
Mike,I could not agree more! Was going to mention my misgivings about the AR op-rods but mine have been 100% so far.

RockyMtnTactical
November 25, 2008, 06:05 PM
Nothing wrong with the AR15 gas system. It is proven and reliable in a quality firearm.

taliv
November 25, 2008, 06:09 PM
Does anybody disagree that the gas piston is the future of the AR platform? Why?


i don't think it's the future of the AR platform. it's a fad. it will pass.

that doesn't mean some other new gun (e.g. maasada) won't come along and supplant the AR platform.

RockyMtnTactical
November 25, 2008, 06:14 PM
i don't think it's the future of the AR platform. it's a fad. it will pass.

that doesn't mean some other new gun (e.g. maasada) won't come along and supplant the AR platform.

Precisely.

madcratebuilder
November 25, 2008, 11:17 PM
i don't think it's the future of the AR platform. it's a fad. it will pass.
+1
I don't have to clean my DI systems (AR) any more than my piston/gas cylinders (M14) If the di blows dirt in the bolt, does it not also blow dirt in the piston? same maintenance, different location.

gvnwst
November 25, 2008, 11:44 PM
Di sends it EVERYWHERE (pratically) on the BC, where the piston on my POF is very small, and just wipes down.

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