Staggered mags / Dutch loads


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HogManMagnum
November 22, 2008, 12:13 AM
Just wondering who out there staggers their mags. I was never fond of the idea but now that Im poised to start carrying a 9x18 (cwp arriving soon), I have started to wonder if JHPs are the best way to go in such a small caliber

I want the stopping power of the JHP and the fact JHPs wont over penetrate or ricochet as much as ball are obviously good things but with a light round like the 9mm Mak there is the fear of underpenetrating the target, specially if its a fat guy or someone wearing winter clothing, plus barrier penetration issues like car windows and such

So I have decided to get the best of both worlds and stagger the mag. JHP in the pipe then top round is FMJ and alternating down the mag... but i feel weird for doing this... Does my theory make sense or am I the only one thinking like this?

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Kind of Blued
November 22, 2008, 12:27 AM
Personally, I wouldn't consider 9x18 weak enough to consider FMJ as a necessary carry option. Anything BELOW 9x17 is where I would start thinking about it, but your hunch may be more founded than mine. If 9x19mm has such an infamous reputation for overpenetration, why should 9x18 really be that much less of a liability. Sure, it's weaker, and you have a pretty short barrel, but it's not a mousegun. Given that Makarov's are well-known to feed anything, I'd personally be taking advantage of some good JHP loads.

That being said, if you're going to stagger mags, I think I would put at least one JHP on the top of the mag, allowing you two quick shots with JHP (including the one in the pipe) before you would need to shoot an FMJ and all of the expanded liability that comes with it. This is thinking in compliance with a Mozambique drill which should probably be standard procedure for basic self-defense shooting anyway.

Z71
November 22, 2008, 12:40 AM
My theory is that a pistol bullet is a pistol bullet.

Never shot anybody to see how hollowpoints do in humans, but in my small game shooting and plinking experience, most hollowpoints don't preform quite as expected. I just use regular ball ammo in my pistols.

A .357 mag or bigger magnum revolver is a different story. Hollowpoints working much better with some velocity behind them.

An interesting experience with my first Makarov. My very first shots from the gun wouldn't penetrate 1/4" plywood! It was the ammo, 9x18 being hard to find in the 1990's. I was shooting some funky steel cased stuff that I bought at the same gunshow as the pistol. The ammo worked fine and was ok for accuracy, however it wouldn't penetrate as good as a .22 revolver!

HogManMagnum
November 22, 2008, 12:44 AM
That being said, if you're going to stagger mags, I think I would put at least one JHP on the top of the mag, allowing you two quick shots with JHP (including the one in the pipe) before you would need to shoot an FMJ and all of the expanded liability that comes with it. This is thinking in compliance with a Mozambique drill which should probably be standard procedure for basic self-defense shooting anyway.

Good point. Ive thought about that, but to be completely honest the reason I want to put a FMJ at the top of the mag is reliabilty. Since I havent run any JHPs thought my pistol yet, and since it might be a while before I have run enough JHPs to trust it 100%, I figure a FMJ is the better bet for the follow up shot (hopefully im worrying for nothing)

This wouldnt be a problem but unfortunatly Georgia Arms has been out of stock of the 9x18 Gold Dot loads for quite some time and for the forseeable future. I finally gave in and ordered some Hornady 9x18 JHPs a few days ago but only one box, if that runs smooth then Ill get some more

If the Hornadys do feed properly then yes, I would do a JHP in the pipe and a JHP at the top of the mag and alternating down from there... ill know in about a week or two, fortunatly I have time, my cwp shouldnt arrive till mid-december

Myles
November 22, 2008, 01:40 PM
Dutch loading was a favorite among action-fiction series (ie. Mack Bolan, et al)

Personally, if it came to a self-defense case, I'd rather be loaded with something standard (Off the shelf, no handloads, no black talons, no X-treme crap; Pick what the local PD uses.)

HogManMagnum
November 22, 2008, 02:07 PM
Personally, if it came to a self-defense case, I'd rather be loaded with something standard (Off the shelf, no handloads, no black talons, no X-treme crap; Pick what the local PD uses.)

i have a 9x18. not too much standard, off the shelf ammo to choose from.

my HD gun is a .40 loaded with Hornady TAP-FPD. not only do i love how those rounds shoot but the fact that the box says FOR PERSONAL DEFENSE is a major plus should i end up in court. i plan to buy a compact .40 eventually for carry, but with the fear of another AWB it has moved down on my list of things to get asap, so im sticking with the 9x18 for carry for now

the Hornady 9x18 JHP is a factory defense load and thats great. but its more expenisve and harder to find

the GA 9x18 GD load is basically a reload and that could be harmfull in court, but then again, it uses the same Gold Dot bullet that alot of LEO use. plus its cheaper and easier to find (if GA ever starts making it again)

wnycollector
November 22, 2008, 02:15 PM
I few years ago I carried a russin mak as my ccw. I carried wolf black box FMJ as my ammo. It was 100% flawless in my mak and I was comfortable it would do the job if called upon. The ONLY problems I ever had with the mak were with silver bear JHP's. on several occasions the mak would fail to fully go back to battery with the JHP's. I noticed every time it happened was after ~100 rounds. I traced it back to the conbination of dirty mags (russian ammo is VERY VERY dirty!) and jhp ammo. I never experienced this problem with dirty mags and FMJ ammo!

Coronach
November 22, 2008, 03:23 PM
I wouldn't mix loads. Find a good, premium HP round that works reliably out of your gun. Load it and forget about it.

Mike

rcmodel
November 22, 2008, 03:33 PM
+1
Bad idea!

Load with a good JHP that is reliable in your gun.
Same recoil, same muzzle blast = Same results every shot.

If the first JHP doesn't do it, keep shooting!

Todays JHP ammo is so much better then it was just 10 - 15 years ago that bullet failure is very unlikely.

rcmodel

The Lone Haranguer
November 22, 2008, 03:45 PM
There is always a 50% probability that the round you just fed will not be the of the type you wanted at that moment.

A fictional account of staggered mag loading happens in (I may be dating myself here;)) Desmond Bagley's Running Blind., but the weapon in this case was a rifle in .375 H&H.

Dutch loading was a favorite among action-fiction series (ie. Mack Bolan, et al)

This is the same series that had him using a .444 Marlin lever action (later a .460 Weatherby Magnum) for long range sniping. :D

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