I Find This Reprehensible


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Guyon
November 22, 2008, 05:25 PM
I know, I know. I don't need a lecture about free markets or supply and demand.

Still, folks who choose the quick buck during a period of panic won't get my money later on down the road.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/guyon5/pmag.jpg

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tnieto2004
November 22, 2008, 05:32 PM
And I bet they are still selling them.

bglz42
November 22, 2008, 05:33 PM
Happening everywhere... I bought a rifle (from a shop in Texas City, Texas) on election night for $499, went back the next day with a friend who wanted the same rifle. Price $699. Won't buy there again...

bukijin
November 22, 2008, 05:33 PM
If it's worth it to someone, then they will buy it. Can be used in a Remington 7615 which is still legal and very popular in this country now, but very difficult to a mag like that at any price. For me, that price and availability is an absolute bargain - it's all a matter of perspective.

tnieto2004
November 22, 2008, 05:36 PM
bglz42,

I'm right down the road from you, academy's in our area are having all sorts of trouble keeping pistols in stock. It is crazy around here.

scythefwd
November 22, 2008, 05:39 PM
guyon,
What was the list price, and what were they selling them for before?

woof
November 22, 2008, 05:46 PM
This is a seller's market for guns and smart buyers will stay out. If they do, it will end the seller's market and prices will come back down. Yeah, yeah, I know gun prices don't come down. And that's true with the general trend. But when there are blips caused by irrationalism, they will correct and quickly.

I have noticed something interesting in recent weeks, while centerfire and shotgun prices are up, there are good deals on .22lrs. Makes sense, who wants a political fantasy wimpy enough to be fought with a .22?

grimjaw
November 22, 2008, 05:47 PM
Cheaper Than Dirt didn't get much of my money anyway (and won't, no matter how many catalogs you guys stubbornly send me!)

What's more important to me is what the beneficiaries of all this profit-making panic buying are going to do when legislation comes down the pipe. Will the turn around and shaft the very people who fattened their wallets in an uncertain economy?

jm

Guyon
November 22, 2008, 05:47 PM
Most ridiculous in this particular case is that CTD suggests that MSRP on these magazines is $59.96. Price listed on the Magpul site (even though Magpul is currently not taking orders) is $14.95. So not only is CTD benefiting from the panic; they're actively deceiving buyers in order to add to it.

Other vendors are still taking backorders for the magazines at the regular $14 to $17 prices. I have a bunch on backorder with Aim Surplus for $14.20 each. Penny shipping too.

Guyon
November 22, 2008, 05:59 PM
Oh yeah... just to give a sense of the current demand: the owner of C-Products posted at AR15.com that, as of yesterday, they had received orders for a million magazines since the election.

JImbothefiveth
November 22, 2008, 06:18 PM
Makes sense, who wants a political fantasy wimpy enough to be fought with a .22?
That's my new signature on another forum! (Save the serious one for the forum with more readers.)

HorseSoldier
November 22, 2008, 06:20 PM
Wow. Pretty stout mark up on a $15 magazine, even at Cheaper Than Dirt's "discount" price. Anyone check to make sure they're not HK rollmarked PMags, that would explain the price . . . :rolleyes:

Shear_stress
November 22, 2008, 06:36 PM
Dirt must not be all that cheap nowadays.

nalioth
November 22, 2008, 06:44 PM
Guyon, is this your first notice of this?

CTD tripled their prices the day after the election on most anything that has to do with anything "tactical".

Frog48
November 22, 2008, 06:52 PM
CTD tripled their prices the day after the election on most anything that has to do with anything "tactical".

And their retail store jacked up gun prices and FFL transfer fees. But if people are willing to pay it, I dont have a problem with it. I'll simply find somewhere else to buy from.

Eightball
November 22, 2008, 06:54 PM
The only thing reprehensible there is that they massively makred up the list price to make it seem like people were getting a good deal, rather than getting ripped off by a factor of about 2x.

grimjaw
November 22, 2008, 07:03 PM
Look, if this was the first time CTD, Sportsman's Guide, et al were guilty of this kind of behavior, I might be more angry about it. When I first started buying ammo online I got bitten by SG with false advertising, long before this most recent election and scare.

Buyers beware, at all times!

jm

Highland Ranger
November 22, 2008, 07:16 PM
Just to take a dissenting view for the purposes of balance: I bought a Saiga after the election and paid what I paid over a year ago for a similar model.

The shop owner indicated that he could sell it for more, but it was the last one and he was selling it for his normal markup.

However, he was already informed that basically any EBR he was getting from his distributor going forward would carry a 30-40% premium over anything he had in his shop. And that there are none to be had and they are backordered for months.

So, maybe somewhere back up the chain isn't playing fair, but don't assume it is the retailer.

The only thing he did do while I was there, when 3 guys came in looking for AR's one after another was say he was out and put their names on a list.

I asked why he didn't point them at the Saigas and he said, because we are saving them for guys like you who know what they are and who have purchased from us before.

So he has me for a customer going forward on two counts: fair pricing and preferential treatment for a good customer.

That said - supply and demand - no supply, high demand = high price.

(Oh and CTD are dirtbags anyway!)

taliv
November 22, 2008, 07:30 PM
i agree with the OP. it's reprehensible. it's false advertising to suggest the normal price is $60.

Erik
November 22, 2008, 07:31 PM
By my math, they are gouging more than they claim to be saving you.

cchurchi
November 22, 2008, 07:42 PM
I just received 6 of these:

http://www.botachtactical.com/lal5trma.html

So, there are still other mags available....

HorseSoldier
November 22, 2008, 08:41 PM
Doesn't Botach Tactical have a reputation for failing to deliver on "too good to be true" sort of deals?

Horsemany
November 22, 2008, 09:02 PM
Doesn't Botach Tactical have a reputation for failing to deliver on "too good to be true" sort of deals?



DOH!:what:

franconialocal
November 22, 2008, 09:04 PM
I've been eying the new Springfield SOCOM II for some time, drooling all over myself and FINALLY got to the point where I could reasonably afford it (I found one for $1,450 at a local shop not too long ago).......went back the other day just to see if all this election hype caught up to it, and sure enough the SAME EXACT RIFLE was now $1,900. I asked the owner (who I've bought HAPPILY from before) if he was still giving a discount to LEO's and he said "That is the discounted price"!!!!!! WHAAAAAAAATTT???? What a sham!!! I'm glad I just bought my Bushmaster M-4 a few months prior (for $880.00).....doesn't look like I'll be gettin' that M-1 for some time now. Geezz....:banghead:

taliv
November 22, 2008, 09:07 PM
you should have offered to sell your bushmaster for $1700

SaxonPig
November 22, 2008, 09:14 PM
So, don't buy it.

Anyone who waited until 11/5 to start thinking about buying magazines deserves to pay 3x as much.

moosehunt
November 22, 2008, 09:59 PM
There's some truth to what the Saxon Pig said, as anyone with sense could see that the socialists were going to win the election, no matter how hard they hoped otherwise. But that's all history now. While prices are shooting up, availability is dropping like a rock. One might be wise to buy now at exorbitant prices, because very soon you won't be able to buy at all. A lot of dealers are raising prices (right or wrong) because they know that they will soon be out of business. They have nothing to loose (your continued business will be immaterial 6 months from now) and might as well make some money while they can. My business is almost done now because the distributors can't supply me because the manufacturers aren't suppling them. Many manufacturers are afraid to gear up because they are afraid they'll get stuck with what the aren't allowed to sell. It's a sad situation, but it's what we have now. Don't worry--it'll get worse!

onebigelf
November 22, 2008, 10:05 PM
I kinda agree. All we can do is choose not to buy from them. Free market means not only the freedom to sell for whatever you like, or can get, but the freedom not to patronize certain businesses. I have a local gunshop that warned me he was raising his prices on these and then did so. He went from 14.95 to 16.95. That I can live with.

John

wep45
November 22, 2008, 10:44 PM
where does it say that "you must buy it":confused:

Guyon
November 22, 2008, 11:00 PM
It doesn't say you have to buy, but it does say "List Price" is $59.96.

While "list price" could mean anything, CTD knows durn well that the phrase suggests MSRP.

politicaldookie
November 22, 2008, 11:59 PM
I'm a free market guy and I'll just adjust my habits. I was able to get a nice WASR 10/63 and a few thousand rounds right before things got silly. Now I'm going to focus on revolvers, bolt action rifles, and other items I want to add to the fold. I think things will moderate. Let's face it, if the economy doesn't pick up all these folks will be selling their "$700" WASR's for whatever they can get to pay the rent etc.

jerkface11
November 23, 2008, 12:06 AM
Magpuls MSRP is $14.99 right? So CTD buys them for LESS than that. Then claims the "list price" is $60?? I remember when they really did have good prices on stuff but it's been awhile.

Wes Janson
November 23, 2008, 12:26 PM
I've been eying the new Springfield SOCOM II for some time, drooling all over myself and FINALLY got to the point where I could reasonably afford it (I found one for $1,450 at a local shop not too long ago).......went back the other day just to see if all this election hype caught up to it, and sure enough the SAME EXACT RIFLE was now $1,900. I asked the owner (who I've bought HAPPILY from before) if he was still giving a discount to LEO's and he said "That is the discounted price"!!!!!! WHAAAAAAAATTT???? What a sham!!!

That was your mistake for not buying it previously. $1450 for a SOCOM II is a wildly good steal, new or used. $1900 is pretty much standard rate for one new, and has been for a long time, if you can find someone who has one.

Long before the elections, people would come in and complain that firearms cost too much, and that they'd wait for the prices to go down. And then the election came and they came in and complained that prices had gone up. I find it hard to summon sympathy for people who sit on the fence for months, and then complain when opportunity passes them by.

Z71
November 23, 2008, 01:34 PM
Yes...Cheaper Than Dirt...the shooters friend! Were these magazines not selling for like $11-$15 a month or so back?

I agree with SaxonPig. If a person hasn't already purchased what he thought he might need or want in the line of firearms and shooting supplies, they really shouldn't gripe too much, because this inflation was highly predictable.

The situation was the same in 1994 with the "assault weapon ban". I participated in "panic buying" then, never dreaming that such a situation would occur before they enacted the ban.

I started my shopping this time well over a year ago, almost 2 years ago in fact. Prefering not to call it "panic buying" but "prudent buying"!

However I do imagine many folks really had no idea things would get so out of hand, maybe being too young to remember 1994.

I hope the Democratic majority minds their manners and lets things cool down. Surely they realize that the mere election of a Democratic president has sold more guns in a month than was likely sold in many many months previous.

We need some statistics on this phenomena!

againstthagrane
November 23, 2008, 04:27 PM
cheaper than dirt is a garbage establishment. i went in there the other day and the guy behind the counter was trying to tell me how i NEEDED a ps90 and how cool the kevlar piercing rounds for it were. after i told him that civies couldn't buy the ammo and when it is available it's over $10 a round he seemed to shut up and get the point. it doesn't shock me at all that they would stoop to marking a $15 magazine at $40. i recently found pmags at m local shop for get this...$15! i bought 2, all i need.

i'm so sick of all of the retailer sympathizers...ohhhh, it's supply and demand, it's capitalism. all i know is that i'm making a mental list of all the scalper businesses and i will effectively boycott them for the next 4 years. i think everyone who feels this fear mongering and greed is not healthy capitalism but deception and GREED should do the same!

so far on the list i have targetmasters(a store i used to enjoy a lot :() in garland and cheaper than dirt in ft worth.

woodfiend
November 23, 2008, 04:39 PM
Yeah, this is absolutely ridiculous. Our Sportsman's Warehouse is completely out of AR15s, M1As, and AR10s. There is absolutely NO ammo for them anywhere in the store. Not a single .223 or .308 bullet. There are not only NO evil black rifles, but there are NO .38 revolvers, snub noses, etc. UNBELIEVABLE.:what:.

againstthagrane
November 23, 2008, 04:41 PM
HAHA $65 for an HK ar mag!!! i almost hope that these rifles DO get banned for a few years. it would be karma at it's finest.

woodfiend
November 23, 2008, 04:42 PM
To make it even worse, our local gun store, Benton's, which used to be the BEST, has recently marked 7.62x39 and .223 boxes of 20 rounds up to $7.00 a box. They used to be $4.95 for 7.62x39 and $5.95 for .223. Needless to say, they don't have my respect anymore.

P.S.- They are also selling the GSG .22lr Carbines for $800.

I LIKE IT!
November 23, 2008, 04:43 PM
Meh. F00k em.

Seems things are already going down hill, here comes the death blow.

Damned if you do damned if you don't.

Double Naught Spy
November 24, 2008, 05:25 AM
Most ridiculous in this particular case is that CTD suggests that MSRP on these magazines is $59.96. Price listed on the Magpul site (even though Magpul is currently not taking orders) is $14.95. So not only is CTD benefiting from the panic; they're actively deceiving buyers in order to add to it.

Sorry, I checked Magpul's site. I don't see where the $14.95 prise is MSRP. I also don't see where they have any in stock to sell right now. It isn't as if companies don't discount their own products from MSRP. Bought a new automobile lately? It isn't as if companies don't sell at above MSRP either. Tried to buy a really fuel efficient car 2 months ago?

MSRP is the manufacturer's SUGGESTED retail price. It is an arbitrary number and nothing more. CTD may be 100% above board in saying the MSRP is $60 as it may be.

againstthagrane
November 24, 2008, 05:35 AM
Too bad I lost all my stuff in that fire. All you guys with scuba gear are just out of luck finding my stuff. Luckily my favorite gun shop is still selling ammo for the same price they were before the fire.

gee it's a good thing you lied about losing your guns in a fire. the man won't know where to find them now :/. why even say anything if you're really scared? if they really wanted to they could track down where you live from your ip so if you're going to spread the paranoia you should live by it too.

MD_Willington
November 24, 2008, 11:50 AM
they were cheaper at the gun show yesterday... still 20-25 a pop on some tables...

Sinixstar
November 24, 2008, 02:47 PM
buds has 30rnd mags for $15 ($14.95 actually)

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=411534541

Sinixstar
November 24, 2008, 02:48 PM
gee it's a good thing you lied about losing your guns in a fire. the man won't know where to find them now :/. why even say anything if you're really scared? if they really wanted to they could track down where you live from your ip so if you're going to spread the paranoia you should live by it too.


Tracking people down by IP isn't nearly as easy as some might have you believe...

marktx
November 24, 2008, 03:01 PM
Tracking people down by IP isn't nearly as easy as some might have you believe...

Tell that to the people getting sued by the RIAA, some have successfully defended themselves but many have not. If the government wants to track you down by IP they probably won't have much trouble at all. I seriously doubt that many people here use a proxy to the degree necessary to disguise their information.

ilbob
November 24, 2008, 03:04 PM
supply and demand.

price is the mechanism by which the two get sorted out in a free market.

you either believe in freedom or you don't.

ECVMatt
November 24, 2008, 03:07 PM
I was working in a gun shop in CA when our AW ban took effect. Our prices went up daily and not because we were sticking it to the customer. It was costing up much more to replace the rifles we sold. I remember we were selling Eagle Arms AR for like 700 bucks. We sold most of them and then called to order more from our supplier. We were told that they now cost 750 dealer. We had to raise the price on the few we had left to cover the new price.

Some folks came in and gave us an ear full for gouging, but all we were trying to do was keep up with the dealer prices.

If we didn't raise our price, we would not have been able to keep selling AR's. We ended up selling several hundred before the ban took effect. I feel good knowing that I put several hundred AR into the good people of California hands.

Matt

Koos Custodiet
November 24, 2008, 03:11 PM
many people will turn in their guns bullets first.

Very few people will. Percentage wise. But as this thread shows, a helluva lot of people are arming themselves.

How many does it take? :-)

After the first one, it's free (I'm sure I'm misquoting JR).

Anyway, to answer other questions. Yes, the dealers (some dealers / the majority of dealers / I don't know?) will gouge you. Will support stricter controls if it will benefit them in the short run. Will then moan and wail when they go bankrupt because they didn't think their short term policies through. South Africa can be a good case study if you're that way inclined.

And my personal opinion is that you guys should be glad the prices are through the roof. Hey no, really, bear with me here. High prices shows a high demand shows a lot of people on "our" side -- and send a very interesting message to "them"... think of the psychological warfare aspect. When "they" are told to go out and collect all them guns... whispering in "their" ear "Remember how many people bought guns just after the election? You know that XYZ got orders for over a million high-cap magazines in just one week?".

A man can have him some *proper* fun, if you know what I mean.

Guyon
November 24, 2008, 03:16 PM
CTD may be 100% above board in saying the MSRP is $60 as it may be.

Do you honestly think MSRP on a plastic magazine is $60? Magpul lists them on their own site for $14.95.

I understand that MSRP could be higher, but then why would Magpul undercut its vendors by offering them so much cheaper?

Put another way, why would Magpul choose an MSRP $45 higher than their list price?

nero45acp
November 24, 2008, 04:07 PM
They're free to charge whatever they wish. Just as I'm free to remember their (and others) gouging, and never buy from them (and their sort) again. I've got enough arms, mags, and ammo to defend me and mine from any realistic threat, and as to practice/plinking I'll just mostly stick with .22LR. The gougers can pucker-up and kiss my...


nero

Sinixstar
November 24, 2008, 04:48 PM
Tell that to the people getting sued by the RIAA, some have successfully defended themselves but many have not. If the government wants to track you down by IP they probably won't have much trouble at all. I seriously doubt that many people here use a proxy to the degree necessary to disguise their information.


Slightly different circumstance. Not to get on a whole off-topic rant or anything, but in the cases of the RIAA, the RIAA already had the IP Address, and evidence that the person that IP Address belonged to committed a crime. They received a court order to obtain personal records from the ISP that provided that IP Address as part of a larger lawsuit, based on the evidence that they already had.
Now - with no direct evidence of a crime (such as a server log showing that you downloaded songs illegally from a person), if you wanted to go about the same process for a website such as THR - you would have to obtain a court order to get access to server logs from THR, and another court order to obtain access to records from that person's ISP. Not saying it can't happen (it does) just that it's slightly more complicated and requires a bit more doing then simply looking up an IP address and getting a physical address to go with it. (this is a common misconception many people seem to have).

nalioth
November 24, 2008, 05:13 PM
Also, if you are running an open wireless network from your home machine (knowingly or not), there is really no way to tell who was actually doing what online from the IP.

Omaha-BeenGlockin
November 24, 2008, 05:24 PM
Its $40 because it comes with $25 dust(dirt) cover---lololol

Coronach
November 24, 2008, 06:14 PM
Free market. If it's too expensive, people won't buy it. I wonder how many they're selling?

I agree that saying "list price is $60" is deceptive. But raising the price in a tight market is pure capitalism. Sure, you can have magazines on backorder, and I do. Or, you can pay four times as much to have one now. I know which I would do (have done, actually). The beauty is that CTD is providing a choice to people who are not so patient, or far more wealthy. And yes, that is a legit service they are providing, since none of the other places selling them on backorder for $15 actually have any. They just have the hope of having some in the future.

And no, CTD can't keep their inventory and keep their prices low, unless they limit sales. If CTD advertised them at the MSRP, they'd be sold out in less than a day, and they'd join the growing list of vendors who have them on backorder, but none in stock. What would be sadly funny is if some of the people giggling now at people paying $60 for a PMAG end up, 10 years down the road, trying to buy those same mags for him $200 a pop because the guy who was dumb enough to buy the $60 PMAG actually got a magazine, instead of a backorder email. No, I don't think that's going to happen, but it could.

That said, the "list price" bit is underhanded and deceptive.

Mike

jerkface11
November 24, 2008, 06:40 PM
The fact that a company named "Cheaper Than Dirt" is selling magazines for DOUBLE MSRP is a bit off as well. Then again maybe dirt has gone up.

Walkalong
November 24, 2008, 06:54 PM
They have been doing that for years. Ya gotta know what stuff is worth, because they will mislead you.

ilbob
November 25, 2008, 02:47 PM
CTD has a long history of both bargains and non-bargains.

These days it seems to be mostly non-bargains.

MagnumCaliber357
November 25, 2008, 03:15 PM
Does anyone have any idea when this panic buying will let up? To my understanding it could take years for an AWB to be put into legislation, so what gives! If panic buying does not let up could supply increase letting prices come back down....

Coronach
November 25, 2008, 04:14 PM
If the new administration goes a few months without making noises and without letting the perennial AWB bill get out of committee, the panic buying will let up and supply will again outstrip demand. Prices will drop, if that happens. Once prices start dropping, the people who stocked up in order to sell stuff at a profit may well try to unload what they have before they take a real bath. That could send prices into free fall.

However, all of this optimism is predicated upon the idea that the new administration will make no moves toward "reasonable gun laws".

We'll see. I'm not willing to bet that will happen, but I'm also not willing to spend $40 on a pmag.

Mike

PS Look for a new wave of panic when the usual suspects submit their annual AWB bill. Nevermind that they've done it each year since 2004, this one will induce the new panic because Obama is in charge. I'll start to worry if it actually garners support and makes its way to the floor (which it very well may).

Reid73
November 25, 2008, 06:39 PM
CTD tripled their prices the day after the election on most anything that has to do with anything "tactical".Everything marketed as "tactical" is by definition overpriced, impractical junk aimed at credulous teenagers. It's hardly a novelty that vendors are making money hand-over- fist from such customers.

I've got enough arms, mags, and ammo to defend me and mine from any realistic threatSo does anyone else who owns a basic 12 gauge, or deer rifle, and 10 rounds of hunting loads.

Double Naught Spy
November 25, 2008, 10:12 PM
Do you honestly think MSRP on a plastic magazine is $60? Magpul lists them on their own site for $14.95.

I understand that MSRP could be higher, but then why would Magpul undercut its vendors by offering them so much cheaper?

Put another way, why would Magpul choose an MSRP $45 higher than their list price?

Because it is marketing and MRSP is a made up number. Why were Ford F150s going for less than half of MSRP a couple of months back from Ford dealers?

Coronach
November 25, 2008, 10:17 PM
When the manufacturer lists them on their own website, that is basically MSRP. Otherwise, you won't have very many distributors.

"Here. We'll sell you this widget for $11. You should sell them for $14. But we're going to sell them on our website for $10."

Right. There's a business model that's going to work.

Mike

nzo012
November 25, 2008, 11:59 PM
I went into a store that was selling surplus GI contract 30rd mags for $39.99 each. The type that had the piss shot out of them and someone's name written on them with a marker. Yes the one's you buy a watermelon crate full of for $50.00.

It's just like the hurricane retailers, bag of ice $17.00, two D cell's $11.95, bottled water more than jet fuel.

rondog
November 26, 2008, 01:45 AM
Sure glad I bought all the guns and reloading supplies that I did over the last couple years! Got about everything I need now, it'll take me years to shoot it all up, if I ever do.

Ignition Override
November 26, 2008, 04:15 AM
No matter how much extra ammo people like/need, none of us are forced to buy it right now, unless we forgot to plan ahead last spring/summer or had serious personal factors. For me it was a brand-new hobby, but ammo and some gun prices had been increasing for many months or years, and there were many dozens of comments and warnings to this effect on many websites and
random Internet 'burps'...

If many active shooters last summer were employed with the same salary and cost of living and had access to a tv with cable or dish (full-time news channels), they either didn't know what they wanted or could afford, or simply decided to take a huge risk waiting for the major election gamble.

Even Several Days after the election there were large numbers of AKs, Saigas, SKS, Mini 14s in good-exc. conditions (maybe ARs) at fairly normal prices at the city gun show here, and few people were looking at any single type, an entire hour after the show was open.
All else being equal, except for financial problems or working on weekends, about one million people in this metro area had the chance to look and buy, with little or no 'paper trail', just as they did about three months earlier. I saw no lines or clusters of lookers anywhere, except maybe a few by the ARs. Buddies showed me the superb Russian Yugo SKS & Finnish & MN which were bought during opening, at good prices.

And November panic shopping is never long before Christmas. Was this taken into account?

Double Naught Spy
November 26, 2008, 10:20 AM
When the manufacturer lists them on their own website, that is basically MSRP. Otherwise, you won't have very many distributors.

"Here. We'll sell you this widget for $11. You should sell them for $14. But we're going to sell them on our website for $10."

Right. There's a business model that's going to work.

The notion that what the manufacturer sells a product for is basically the MSRP, might I point out that Magpul is NOT selling their product for $14.95 to the public anymore. So using the old MRP as the stated MSRP is a bit silly. The market has changed.

From the Magpul website...
Due to the EXTREMELY high demand for PMAGs during this period, we are not accepting direct retail magazine orders. All production is being shipped to our Dealers and Distributors. Thank you for your support of Magpul Industries products.

MRP and MSRP can be two different things, as may be the case here. Manufacturers don't always sell for a MSRP. They may sell below MSRP or above the MSRP depending on the market. Once again, the MSRP is a made up number.

What the manufacturer sells an item for is not the MSRP. It IS the manufacturer's actual retail price (MRP) and is not a suggested price. MRP and MSRP are not one in the same necessarily, hence why the MSRP has the S in it.

MSRP is often used as a marketing tool. First, it entices dealers by suggesting a retail price at which the product might be able to be sold and so can make the product look very profitable. It is also used by the dealers who sell the product below MSRP and who state the MRSP so that Joe consumer will think he is getting a better deal, getting the at at below what the manufacturer suggested.

In only a limited number of industries or agreements is there a contractual agreement that the MSRP is the price at which the dealer must sell a product. Magpul isn't one of those manufacturers that demands that the dealers sell at a set price. So the notion that undercutting the MSRP is a poor business model doesn't hold water. As I noted, the MSRP is a made up number and since there is no contractual obligation for the dealer to sell at MSRP, there isn't a problem.

In reality, most dealers don't care what MSRP is stated by the manufacturer. They look at the actual wholesale cost and compare that to what they think they can sell the product for in order to determine whether or not they want to sell the product.

Coronach
November 26, 2008, 12:08 PM
I agree. The problem is that CTD is stating that the "list price" of the magazine is something that I have never seen "listed" anywhere, besides their website (and yes, I do know several people in the industry who are, or were, selling Pmags- now, they're taking backorders like crazy). CTD basically made the number up, as best I can determine. I'm all for the free market, but deception is wrong.

Mike

homers
November 26, 2008, 12:34 PM
My two local walmarts justed upped the price of their ammo, box of 100 federal shotgun shells now up to 22.97. Rifle ammo up a buck or two each also. Are they passing on a cost increase or taking advantage of an uptick in sales?

jkingrph
November 26, 2008, 02:16 PM
Dirt must not be all that cheap nowadays

Go price an acre of "dirt"

J-Man
November 26, 2008, 11:04 PM
BTW
Magpul has NEVER raised its prices on any of its products, ever. That goes for Distributor and Dealer prices as well as those for Consumers. While someday that may change due to material and employee cost increases it will never happen because of any sort of buying paranoia.
The current political climate leading to the massive increase in demand has forced us to concentrate on our Distributors and Dealers right now and all magazine production is being shipped to them. We're shipping tens-of-thousands of PMAGs weekly and once we've caught up with the backlog we'll open the Consumer window again.
And yes, MSRP is $14.95 for the standard PMAG...

Justin Beard
Magpul Industries
Tech Support / Customer Service

Coronach
November 26, 2008, 11:23 PM
Well. I guess that answers that. :)

Mike

Double Naught Spy
November 27, 2008, 08:40 AM
And yes it does.

So is Magpul going to complain to CTD for misrepresentation?

H2O MAN
November 27, 2008, 08:55 AM
Why all the whining?

Retailers can list any price they want, it's the consumers duty to shop around for the best price.

It's your money, you have the ultimate power to decide how you spend it an who you spend it with.

RX-178
November 27, 2008, 09:07 AM
Misrepresentation of what?

CTD clearly says 'list price'.

Nowhere do they ever say that 'list price' is defined by the actual Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price.

In fact, 'list price' isn't defined at all, so they have every right to set that number however high they want it. Unless they say 'Magpul suggests selling them at $60', they are not misrepresenting.

We know that the price is exorbitant for the actual value of the product. We can choose to pay it, or we can choose to shop elsewhere. That's all there is to it.

ryanl
November 27, 2008, 10:14 AM
It is misleading to an uninformed buyer.
If they said Magpuls msrp was $60 it would be a flat out lie.

H2O MAN
November 27, 2008, 10:18 AM
The uninformed buyer is much like the uninformed voter... easily lead astray.



Now posted on MAGPUL INDUSTRIES web site.

Due to the EXTREMELY high demand for PMAGs during this period, we are not accepting direct retail magazine orders.
All production is being shipped to our Dealers and Distributors. Thank you for your support of Magpul Industries products.


Supply and demand.

You are going to pay a premium price if you want PMAGs right now.

larry starling
November 27, 2008, 10:26 AM
H2O MAN The uninformed buyer is much like the uninformed voter... easily lead astray.
And way to many of both now days...........:evil:

Coronach
November 27, 2008, 11:05 AM
Misrepresentation of what?

CTD clearly says 'list price'.

Nowhere do they ever say that 'list price' is defined by the actual Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price.

In fact, 'list price' isn't defined at all, so they have every right to set that number however high they want it. Unless they say 'Magpul suggests selling them at $60', they are not misrepresenting.Sure they are. 'List price' is a commonly accepted term for MSRP. CTD is taking advantage of sloppy language that does not have a legal definition. Is it illegal? No. Is it still deceptive? Absolutely.We know that the price is exorbitant for the actual value of the product. We can choose to pay it, or we can choose to shop elsewhere. That's all there is to it.And I agree. I don't object, at all, to CTD charging that much for a pmag. Heck, if I was independently wealthy and wanted one, I might well buy one. I'm not, so I won't.

My only objection in this is CTD saying the 'list price' is something, when it is quite clear that the only list on which they found that price was of their own making.

Mike

H2O MAN
November 27, 2008, 11:13 AM
'List price' is a commonly accepted term for MSRP.

That would be a mistake made by an uninformed buyer.

"List price" and "MSRP" are very, very different.

Double Naught Spy
November 27, 2008, 11:24 AM
Right. List Price is simply the price at which a product is listed. The list price may be created at the manufacturer, wholesale, and retail levels and a given item may have several list prices...depending on what list is being considered.

Since CTD did not refer to the price as MSRP, then this association with it as MRSP is pretty silly.

Coronach
November 27, 2008, 11:32 AM
OK, then what 'list' is it referring to? It's not manufacturer, it's not wholesale, it's not manufacturer suggested retail. heck, it's not even the going rate under the current panic buying market.

So, what is it?

It's an internal list that they made up, in order to mark it down from that to look like the uninformed buyer is getting a deal. That's flat-out deception.

However, it's not illegal, and I'm not suggesting that it is. Nor is marking the magazines up in the current market. It would be fine if they had said, "hey, in the current market we're going to try to keep some supply on hand, and the only way to do that is to increase price. So, in order to counter demand, we're raising price, but we actually have product to sell. here's the price, take it or leave it." Heck, if they had just said "price: $39.97" I would applaud their use of the free market. But, marking something up to then call that "list price", in order to then mark it down is deception.

Mike

30mag
November 27, 2008, 12:17 PM
Sorry, but...
Supply and Demand...

I'm just banking on them being around for a couple of more years.

Of course, my 12 gauge doesn't accept detachable magazines.

EdLaver
November 27, 2008, 12:23 PM
Yes PMags are the cream of the crop AR magazine wise, I only own one, the other 30 of my mags are GI grey ones with magpul followers. They work just as well and are alot easier to find, price is still the same too.

Grunt
November 27, 2008, 10:57 PM
Why do I feel like I have 2 squabbling kids here?:banghead:

Cheaper Than Dirt...not-so-much, you can charge what you want to for the products you sell but don't try to imply that you are doing anybody any favors but jacking up the prices then offering a discount. This makes you look like a price gouging moron! Yes, you may be the ones with the magazines in stock rather than on back order but at those prices, you are going to sit on them for quite a while as far as I'm concerned.

Buyers and bitchers, it's a free market and they can set the price at what they want. No you don't have to buy from them and if it were me I wouldn't either. However, freakin' Stevie Wonder could see how this election was going to go and if you didn't bother to plan ahead before the elections, either suck it up and pay the prices the seller asks, buy something else from somebody else or do without but quit your crying about it.

SSN Vet
November 28, 2008, 10:11 AM
I'm frequently amazed at how much bad mouthing Midway gets.

O.K., so there shipping is higher than most, but for cryin' out loud, Larry Potterfield's as true blue a RKBA friend as you'll ever have...

so look what's on sale this month....

20 and 30 round AR-Stoner mags with the no tilt follower and silicon springs for $9/ea.

and this while other stores with lower prices (and far less inventory overhead) and cheaper shipping (and longer order processing times) our gouging the firearms community in a vulnerable panic time.

+1 for Midway

H2O MAN
November 28, 2008, 10:27 AM
If you didn't see this situation coming at least 3 years ago you are either
brand new to military style firearms or you missed the writing on the wall.

NC-Mike
November 28, 2008, 10:50 AM
So, don't buy it.

Anyone who waited until 11/5 to start thinking about buying magazines deserves to pay 3x as much.

I finished my panic buying a few weeks ago.


I started in August. :evil:

flyboy1788
November 28, 2008, 11:07 AM
I started panic buying in april and finished a month ago. If you didnt see this coming you DO deserve to pay 3 1/2 times as much

Guyon
November 28, 2008, 01:33 PM
You are going to pay a premium price if you want PMAGs right now.

Wrong. I just got 10 in the mail yesterday. $12.97 each plus shipping.

I have 15 more that are about to be processed from another vendor. (The mags are in and are being held for me, but the vendor is still shipping orders from two weeks ago.) $14.20 each on those. No shipping charge, so the price is on a par with the other order.

I got on both backorder lists last week after buying my first AR. Unlike some, I didn't panic and buy $40 mags from Gunbroker or CTD. I just got on a list (well, two actually) like everyone was recommending, and I got good prices on the mags.

I also didn't pay an arm and a leg for the AR. I chose a local sporting goods store (Academy) that didn't jack prices up after the election.

CajunBass
November 28, 2008, 07:21 PM
So let me get this straight. CTD "tripled" the price on an item, then put that item "on sale" at twice what it sold for before?

Sounds like they took a lesson from a furniture store to me. :D

H2O MAN
November 28, 2008, 07:24 PM
Quote:
You are going to pay a premium price if you want PMAGs right now.



Guyon
Wrong. I just got 10 in the mail yesterday. $12.97 each plus shipping.

Right, and how many of those would you sell @ $12.97 plus shipping?

Ky Larry
November 28, 2008, 07:37 PM
Caveat Emptor (Let the buyer beware) This was good advise 2 thousand years ago and it still applies today.

innerpiece
November 28, 2008, 07:41 PM
thats messed up!
but Im gonna laugh at everybody who went out and bought all kindsa stuff, when obama dosent even push for a weapon ban..lol

I went and got an AR, but it was months prior to the election, and I got a real nice deal. so 2 SKS's, an AR is all I need for "evil" rifles.. suppose now would be a good time to get a shotgun eh?!

Guyon
November 28, 2008, 08:06 PM
Right, and how many of those would you sell @ $12.97 plus shipping?

H20 MAN, none since I bought them to keep.

But what I wanted to convey is that folks really can get PMAGs "right now" if their definition of "right now" doesn't mean "this very instant." If it means "right now" in this climate, then they can get them.

I think that orders placed today will easily fill before mid-January if you choose a reputable dealer who typically moves a fair amount of inventory. For people who are looking, my advice is to backorder the mags and just stop freaking out. Panicking and paying $40 per mag is just allowing an unscrupulous dealer to take advantage of your emotions.

againstthagrane
November 30, 2008, 07:29 PM
And we should all laugh at those who didn't buy anything and they suddenly find themselves with weapons that you can't buy ammo for unless you want to mortgage your house and since the banking industry has collapsed you won't be able to do that either. If Russian ammo gets banned those SKS's you own may become fence posts or something before long.

If I bought stuff in anticipation of POSSIBLE problems it isn't like I can't sell it later on for what I paid for it. Those who buy when the price is high might find it harder to recoup their cash but I don't see it as funny that they're worried about what Obama might do because it is certainly a possibility.

Sure buying guns even before the panic was a hunch bet but it's a hunch bet based on past experiences. We suffered through one AWB. It may be much worse the next time around. We could end up like Australia where all semi-autos are banned and even repeaters are banned in many cases. Or we could end up like Britain where you can't buy anything and you are forced to turn in every gun you own no matter how valuable it is.

I don't intend to get caught with my pants down when the attempt is made to take away our guns. And it is certainly within the realm of possibility that this might happen. It's well known that many lib groups want exacty that and when you owe your election to the presidency to groups like that then you tend to go along with what they want pretty often. Not always but often. The thing is that they might have a fillibuster proof congress to work with and they might get everything they want. Sure the Supreme Court might eventually overthrow their laws but in the mean time we could lose everything because maybe the judges don't act quick enough or maybe they secretly want the same things.

IMO we just can't take the chance that nothing will happen. I think a lot of people share that view. "Cold dead fingers" is more than a slogan to a lot of people. I think freedom demands it of us. If we expect to remain free and have our children be free then sometimes you have to take a stand. I seriously doubt it will get that far just because so many do have weapons in this country. Taking them all away would be a monumental task and I don't believe it will happen because the potential blowback is huge. So more power to all those who make the potential blowback even bigger. I'm not going to laugh at them if they prevent problems from happening by their sheer numbers. I'm going to applaud them if they win by a mere show of force and that's what I expect.
__________________


i have a feeling when you were in high school you were the kid that yelled "FIGHT!" when two kids were arguing in an attempt to start a fist fight. next time i have a bonfire i know who i can count on to bring the kerosene. lol

blkbrd666
November 30, 2008, 11:13 PM
...i know who i can count on...

I hope there's more out there!!!

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