Maybe I am just too darn practical but I think some things are really stupid!!


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Lovevixen555
November 22, 2008, 07:44 PM
For instance people argueing over which is better or enough cartridge for Elk in America the 30-06,270,25-06,308Win,6.5X55 etc........... First shot placement is king when hunting anything larger then a White Tail Deer. Mind you shot placement is always critical but becomes more so as the size of the animal increase's. I would argue that with today's insanely well designed controlled expansion bullets that any of the above are more then enough poisin to kill an Elk! Do not get me wrong if I was talking to the wife I would argue that I needed this caliper for this critter and this one for this critter but truth be told any of the above will do for all but the most Dangerious Kodiac Grizzly Bear's in Kodiac Alaska. I have droped Elk,Black Bear,Deer and just about everything else with a 7.62X51 or .308 Win. The 6.5X55 has taken more Elk in Europe then all the Elk harvesting in the USA with any single cartridge let alone the Uber Magnum's!!! Heck the lowly 6.5X55 with monlithic solids was used to brain thousands of Elaphants and other dangerious game in Africa. I can gurantee that a 25-06 with a Barns X-Bullet will kill an Elk as dead as it needs to be.

Most poacher's in my area use Rugger 10/22's with monster spot light's attached and Chevy Blazer to drive around Farmer's fields and shoot their deer. Most bear that are shot in the woods are usualy shot dureing Firearm season for Deer with a Slug from a 12 guage. The 30-30 is a deer harvesting legend from cost to cost. The 45-70 is gaining ground in Africa in Lever Actions for fast handleing dangerious hunt back-up guns for the guides.


Another thing I hate is that mindless recomendationson some sights over and over and over again for Remington 700 or Model 7! It is especialy poor taste when someone is talking about their new $329 or less Marlin XL7 that they bought for their kid as their first rifle. What type of idiot tells someone to go buy a Model-7 in 243 for their daughter when they have already bought her a Marlin XL7 in 25-06 and they are loveing it! I will admit I am a bit biased as I absolutely hate Reminton 700's and I also hate the 870 Shotgun. Now if I say an insanely good deal on one I would not pass it up but I would not ever pick it over any other choice from a decent manufacture. I find that for the most part Remington's are grossly over rated when it comes to their out of the box accuracy when talking about their hunting models and I do not think their fit and finish is even close to their current priceing. Same thing for Weatherby Rifles. My Browning's,Winchest Classics,Rugger's and Mauser's have always out shot any rifle they have come up against costing much much more. I am a good shot and was trained at Ft. Benning as a Sniper but I am not so much better then those I shoot with to warrant my besting them it trully is a matter of well built rifles with good factory barrels. While Remington actions and any tubular action for that matter has an edge when it comes to low cost accurizeing and the great ease of machine set up that is about all they have that other actions do not. Almost all modern actions have fast lock times even the modern CZ's which are a lot like a Mauser action have enhanced lock time. I get really tired of everyone thinking that a Remington factory hunting rifle is any more inheirantly accuracte out of the box then say a much cheaper Savage or cheaper still Marlin XL7.

Remington's real claim to fame is two fold. First early bench rest shooters found that it was the easiest to accurize since it is a a round tube. It was also easy to sleeve these actions to make them stiffer. Then in Modern time post Vietnam they got large contracts with the Marines and the Army for Sniper rifles. Put these together with the back woods gun smith and a redneck's limited access to information and a legend was born built partly on truth and partly on myth. I do not hate Remington I just hate hype that is not based in fact. Today you do not see reminton actions inthe winner circle at bench rest competition it is all Neskia,Stolle and other custom made actions. All of your top tactical rifles that are built on Remington actions wear someone elses barrel since any precission shooter will tell you Remington's factory barrels are junk not only are they rough as can be they do not last long before they start to wear out if they are shot on a regular basis.

Their was a time when Remington was the only game in town for cheap build up from OEM hunting rifle to great shooter but today you can use almost any companies action especialy if it is tubular. So Savage,Remington,Marlin XL7,Winchest push-feed actions can all be easily accurized cheaply and quickly and all of your top barrel manufactures will sell you a barrel.Stock's are widely available for just about any action you can name that is available new or used. So why pay a king ransom for something that is no better at it's job then many of it's competitor's? The name alone is not worth the extra money. If you shop around you can get some great deals on some well engineered rifles. I can get a brand new heavy varmint barreled Tikka for less then a varmint barreled Remington and trust me when I say the Tikka is a better rifle. Look how much more expensive Savages are now then just a few year's ago. They used to be considered the poor man's rifle but since so many people have discovered that they are more accurate then most Remington's and cost less too the price has gone up.

If you wanted a rifle you can shoot now and rebarrel latter for cheap get a Marlin XL7. First it will not be long until barrel makers start offering barrels for this too at a killer price since it is the same set-up as a Savage. This means you can get a cheap rifle for the action alone and buy a premium barrel and a head space guage and have a nice custom barreled tactical rifle for less then $600. Since it comes with a base fromthe factory all you need to do is get a scope and a box of shells to go with your $329 or less rifle. In a year or two when premium barrel companies are offering screw on ready to go already blued barrels in other chamberings based ont he 30-06 case you can buy one for probably around $250 or less and be ready to rock and roll. Enlarge the stock to fit the barrel or buy a stock from Richards Microfit or Fajen and go shooting!

I am thinking about getting one this week or next week and then rebarreling it to 6.5X06 or 6.5X284. Remove those pressure pads at the front of the stock, enlarge the barrel channel and devcon the action in place. Next stop 1000 yard shooting contest's!!LOL

I know I am ranting. I just get tired of the brocken record people that have been saying the same thing for 15 years or more now!!! Get a Rem 700 or Model 7 in XXXX.......

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browningguy
November 22, 2008, 08:20 PM
That was quite a rant.

But I think most peoples recommendations now are for a Savage over any model of Remington, heck even Mauser snobs like me recommend Savage for most people.

mnrivrat
November 22, 2008, 11:58 PM
But then tell us how you realy feel !! :D

Actualy, your points are well taken I'm sure by many . We have all this different stuff not because it is needed, or because it is so much different from one thing to another ,but because people are different.

Logic and facts do not draw a conclusion, nor win an argument - just loudness and stamina . ;)

CSestp
November 24, 2008, 01:24 AM
This was great.

moosehunt
November 24, 2008, 02:05 AM
Lovevixen555--quite a rant.

The 870 Express and 870 Wingmaster both have the same guts--totally and completely interchangeable (within gauge, etc.). The Express looks like a club, the Wingmaster like a Thouroughbred, yet they are really the same gun in different cloths, and both very dependable!!! Arguably the best shotgun ever produced.

NotSoFast
November 24, 2008, 03:35 AM
What gets me is when the OP states he, or she, is looking for something within their budget and fairly inexpensive but several who reply recommend something way out of the OP's ballpark. C'mon guys, pay attention to what the OP says and respect his limits.

1858
November 24, 2008, 05:06 AM
If you wanted a rifle you can shoot now and rebarrel latter for cheap get a Marlin XL7.

You know that Remington owns Marlin right!

Today you do not see reminton actions inthe winner circle at bench rest competition it is all Neskia,Stolle and other custom made actions.

How is this relevant to anyone wanting to buy a hunting rifle (since that is what your rant's about right ... Savage or other non-Remington hunting rifles that are much cheaper and much more accurate)?

All of your top tactical rifles that are built on Remington actions wear someone elses barrel since any precission shooter will tell you Remington's factory barrels are junk not only are they rough as can be they do not last long before they start to wear out if they are shot on a regular basis.


So are you saying that other "top tactical rifles" built on actions from Savage or others (not Remington) don't have/need third party barrels since their barrels are good enough? Does any hunting rifle in stock form make a good "top tactical rifle"?

:confused:

1858
November 24, 2008, 08:42 PM
King Ghidora, I recently bought three Marlin rifles and I'm very pleased with the quality and their service. One of the three did have a couple of issues but Marlin took care of those quickly and professionally. As for Remington products, I'm a believer in the expression "you get what you pay for". Sometimes it's obvious what you're paying for, sometimes it's not ... I'll leave it at that.

Just in case anyone wants to send me a Savage, Tikka or any other rifle for that matter so that I can compare them to my three sub MOA "out of the box" Remingtons that I supposedly paid too much for, I'd be more than happy to email you with my address and the address of my local gun shop!! I can't guarantee that you'll get them back but I WILL be objective when I collect and process the data. :D

:)

bgeddes
November 24, 2008, 09:17 PM
Today you do not see reminton actions inthe winner circle at bench rest competition it is all Neskia,Stolle and other custom made actions.

My father-in-law just won the PA State Benchrest championship at 100 and 200 yards with a Rem 40-X, basically a 700. He built a 40-X actioned gun for a guy who dominated another class with it.

So, while there are lots of Stolles and the like, Remingtons are still there and they are winning.

Shawnee
November 24, 2008, 09:18 PM
If someone asks for recommendations of a hunting rifle then that's what they should get - not some "from the target pulpit" speech about 1/10MOA at 1000yds - not some "I'm richer than you" speech about only buying Coopers or Weatherbys - not some moronic advice to save money by getting a $189.00 Tinker-Toy rifle then adding $1600 worth of new stock, new action, and new barrel.

Out-of-the-box accuracy of the day-in-day-out Remington 700 is perfectly fine for hunting and, more importantly the 700 is a sturdy, reliable rifle with a long and successful track record in the hunting fields from coast to coast.

And there is at least one extremely good reason why someone would recommend a Remington 700 rather than a Marlin XL7 - they don't recommend the XL7 because they have never used it and they recommend the 700 because they do have experience with it. If you think such a person's recommendation of the 700 is a slam at the XL7 and/or a grievous assault against your personal welfare you need to grow up, or at least finish the 3rd grade before you play on the computer again.

:cool:

The Deer Hunter
November 24, 2008, 09:26 PM
What gets me is when the OP states he, or she, is looking for something within their budget and fairly inexpensive but several who reply recommend something way out of the OP's ballpark. C'mon guys, pay attention to what the OP says and respect his limits.

Haha I know you want a $200 rifle and you get $600 recommendations.

NotSoFast
November 25, 2008, 01:38 AM
The Deer Hunter - Haha I know you want a $200 rifle and you get $600 recommendations.

No. I want a $600 rifle that is 1 MOA accurate and am being recommended a $2500 rifle that shoots 1/10 MOA out of the box. Or I want a $250 scope and am being recommended a $1000 scope.

Besides, my $189 Schmidt Ruben K31 is pretty durn accurate as it stands. :neener:

WardenWolf
November 25, 2008, 02:14 AM
There's a lot of calibers out there that are, for the most part, really redundant.

.308 / 30-06 / 7mm Rem. Mag. There's no real difference in performance, and work for the same classes of game. Only the 30-06 and 7mm Rem. Mag hurt your shoulder more. All three will drop anything in the 48 contiguous states. The 30-06 and 7mm Rem. Mag are rapidly looking less appealing.

.300 Win. Mag / .300 Web. Mag: Not exactly a big difference here either. How many polar bears are you expecting to hunt anyway?

In the past, people were a lot more picky and one or more of the redundant calibers simply died off. Compare .225 Winchester to .223 Remington. We all know how that went. Nowadays, with computer-controlled manufacturing, it is more feasible for manufacturers to keep supporting a wider range of calibers with both guns and ammo. Whether this will continue during the current economic downturn remains to be seen.

What are the "best" rifle calibers? As in, what should you get to cover your bases? I believe 2 or 3 guns can easily cover anything you want to do.

In my view, the most versatile Western calibers, and the best to have guns for, are as follows:

.223 / 5.56: Good light hunting round, good for home defense, low recoil, common, fairly inexpensive.

.308: Good all-around round. Very accurate, long-ranged, and capable of downing anything you'd want to hunt. Recoil is reasonable.

For anything larger, there's a shotgun with a 12-gauge slug, or any of the various large magnum rifle rounds. It all depends on what you need, and how much pain you're willing to tolerate. If you've got a .223 and a .308 or equivalent, you should be set.

RaisedByWolves
November 25, 2008, 02:18 AM
Every one of you guys is wrong.:neener:

WardenWolf
November 25, 2008, 02:40 AM
I'd agree with that. You have to do your research to find the gems.

1858
November 25, 2008, 05:54 AM
Well obviously you're implying that the Express isn't the gun the Wingmaster is. I'd like to see some data that backs that up. I'm a firm believer that you don't always get what you pay for. The OP made that point rather well. Why pay for an expensive Remington when a much cheaper Marlin or Savage will do the same things?

I value his opinion more than someone who just thinks you get what you pay for.

King Ghidora, where did that come from ... from left field for sure. You might want to rethink the personal attack ... you're way off on this one. I have a Remington Synthetic Express with the 7 round magazine tube and 18" barrel and I LOVE IT. It's a superb shotgun and I have no plans to do anything to it other than shoot it. And by the way, I haven't uttered a single word about ANY shotguns so you've left me more than a little confused. For the record, I've never seen, handled, or shot a Wingmaster.

Using automobiles as an example of "you don't get what you pay for" isn't a particularly good example when talking about firearms since I don't know of many "rebadged" rifles on the market. When it comes to firearms and optics (not necessarily other accessories), it has been MY experience that you get what you pay for. My point about "it's not always obvious what you're paying for" is a reference to the numerous features, quality, reliability, longevity, service, support, resale value, ergonomics, upgradeability (if that's a word), availability of parts, availability of accessories and so on and so on. If you compare the "accuracy" of a Remington for $800 to some other rifle that costs $400 and find them to be comparable and you purchase the cheaper one for that reason, then is it possible that there are other considerations that you overlooked? Is it also possible that some folks utilize a complicated decision matrix that takes into account numerous aspects of the firearm. It's just as ridiculous to criticize someone for buying the $800 rifle as it is to criticize them for buying the $400 rifle. At the end of the day, we're all free to make our own decisions and shouldn't have to justify our choices to anyone. For some people the brand name IS important and why ridicule them for that? If they feel happier owning a well known make of rifle maybe they'll shoot better or go to the range more or get a family member interested in shooting. Recently I bought a Winchester '97 shotgun (riot version) made in 1921 in excellent condition for quite a bit of money. In fact, I could have bought three 870 SE's for what I paid (I did buy one of those too) so am I happy with my purchase ... ABSOLUTELY!! Would I pick up the '97 over the 870 if the SHTF ... NO!! So you might ask what's the purpose of spending that kind of money on a shotgun that won't earn its keep. Well, I didn't buy it for that reason. There probably isn't a single shooting test or scenario where the '97 would beat the 870 but how about other factors such as history, design, ergonomics, and beauty to name a few. For me, the history alone is worth the extra cost but for others they could care less and would rather spend a lot less money on a Chinese made clone. That's their choice and my choice is to ALWAYS buy American made firearms if a comparable (albeit more expensive) model is available.

Kind of turned into a rant but that's what personal attacks often lead to.

:)

R.W.Dale
November 25, 2008, 06:50 AM
urggggh This thread gives me gas!

madcratebuilder
November 25, 2008, 08:38 AM
urggggh This thread gives me gas!

Stinky gas and a headache.
What's all the hate about? Some one needs to get some.

Mannlicher
November 25, 2008, 12:14 PM
Lovevixen, its possible that you are not so practical after all. Coming into a new forum, and being so confrontational and aggressive is, well, not understood by others, or appreciated.
What you may think is 'stupid', might not be so to others. Capiche?

jbech123
November 25, 2008, 12:30 PM
.300 Win. Mag / .300 Web. Mag: Not exactly a big difference here either. How many polar bears are you expecting to hunt anyway?

Not to nitpick, but neither one of those would be all that great for polar bears(or grizzlies). Sure you could kill a polar bear with one, but those 2 rounds really earn their keep as long range rounds.

Art Eatman
November 25, 2008, 12:49 PM
Hey, folks, back off! Here's a guy with a perfectly lovely rant, and yet posts are getting way too personal!

Y'all know better. It's not at all difficult to make comments that are to the point but amicable or even humorous...

1858
November 25, 2008, 01:01 PM
King Ghidora, as hard as this may be for you to believe, I absolutely, unequivocally didn't give the part of your post about Express and Wingmaster ANY thought. My comments about buying three Marlin rifles WERE addressed to you. My comment "As for Remington products, I'm a believer in the expression "you get what you pay for". Sometimes it's obvious what you're paying for, sometimes it's not ... I'll leave it at that." was addressed to the OP.

If you want to PM me we can talk about this away from this thread since our exchanges aren't helping anyone.

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