[BigG]

Anybody have experience with or collect Model 1897s? That is the shotgun immortalized by William Holden et al in "The Wild Bunch," a great film that features two major shootouts involving the old corn shuckers. The movie is set around 1913 so it is at the end of the cowboy era and the Model 1897 is high tech for the times.

I recently obtained a nice 12 gauge and would like to share some discussion about it. I've shot a bunch of pumps, including a nice Model 12 with high grade wood, but I've never warmed to the action type, except for the ole 97. I always had it in the back of my mind to obtain one but the ones I came across are so clapped out as to be practically worthless.

Unlike a newer pump, the Model 97 is made of forged machined parts and the shell carrier doubles as the bolt lock. The thing is massive and closes with the authority of a safe - CHUNK! The exposed hammer and corncob forearm just makes it too cool to describe.

I will take this out to the range and blow some holes in the sky at least, if not pop some clay targets. :D This one has not been monkeyed with hard buttplate so may magnify the recoil. We'll see.

This gun is in the 560000 range what age would that be?

:D

[mothernatureson]

nice classic pump action you have there. According to my WInchester references, your shotgun was made in 1914. Happy shooting.
mothernatureson

[DCR]

'97's are a HOOT!! I recently got one in 16-gauge that I sometimes use for CAS. Fun shooter!

Beware that they can "slam-fire," so practice trigger awareness.

I wish Winchester would make them again; I don't want to buy the new Norinco copies that are available.

Happy shooting!!

[BigG]

Winchester might have to charge a pretty penny due to the forged/machine parts and close fitting they would need. But it puts all the other ones to shame, in my book. Coolness! :cool:

[Hutch]

I have the Nor-chester clone for Cowboy Action Shooting, and it's a gem. The only drawback for me is the bolt coming back right over top of the thumb when you shuck it. I'm trying to get into the habit of leaving my thumb alongside the grip, rather than grasping it.

[Hemicuda]

I gots me an original '97 Trench Gun 12 GA. (parkerized and W/ a bayonet mount & bayonet...

I also gots a plain ol' 12 Ga. long barrel model...

fun to shoot... and good high rating on the "cool-meter"

[Dionysusigma]

This gun is in the 560000 range
That must be one NICE shotgun for the price to be so high!
...oh wait...

:p

[J Miller]

I'm not sure I'd want USRAC to make a new 1897. I'm sure they would use the most up to date computer assisted machinery, to make it out of castings and MIM parts.
Then they'd have to design in the rebounding hammer and lawyer inspired safeties. They would charge 10 times what a new SuperX model costs. And of course the cas shooters would buy them.
But they would be junk none the less.

I'd rather buy a real one, than a commie china made one or a new model made by USRAC.

JMHO, YMMV

[Dave McCracken]

97s are a JMB design, and one of the classic shotguns of all time. And the way they close does sound solid as a bank vault.

If any pump ever gets into my collection besides 870s, it most likely will be a 97.

One was part of our crew equipment in SEA, and a real comfort in hand on sentry duty.

The two tightest slug groups I ever saw were from a 16 gauge 97.

As for the bolt coming back, the way I grip it's not a prob,though there's not much clearance.

As for slam firing, it's impressive to watch but rough to hit with at any distance.

97s aren't tweaked much these days, but I've run across a couple with great pulls right off the shelf.

Off the wall guess, making them to the same quality as the old ones would put them in the $2K range.

CAVEAT: Like ALL old shotguns, they should be checked out by a competent smith for condition and chamber length before firing.

[kudu]

BigG, your serial # dates the 97 about 1912.
I have had two 97's, both shot great but sold the one in rougher condition for a nice profit. Still got the other one that has a poly choke installed on the barrel. Couldn't let it go, shot a straight 75 on the skeet range the first time I shot it. Heavy as a boat anchor and solid but watch for the hammer in the web of your thumb. I have never had a problem with it but a couple of buddys shot it and it got them both on the web of their thumbs.:rolleyes: . Great gun to play with but heavy to carry, thats what makes it a nice clays gun the weight keeps it moving for the shooter. Have fun and start with light loads with the steel butt plate. :D

[BigG]

Thanks, guys, for the comments and help zeroing in on the date of manufacture. Dang near a century old. :eek:

Another movie worth seeing is THE PROFESSIONALS w/ Lee Marvin and Burt Lancaster. As you probably suspect, they have cornshuckers too. :D

[Kingcreek]

I grew up hunting pheasants with my Granddad and the only SG he ever had was a 12g '97. wish I knew what became of that hunk of iron when he died. 32" full choke barrel and I don't think there was a speck of bluing anywhere on it. He always waited and shot when everyone else was done and reloading. Dropped his pheasants near the horizon, as I remember. He hunted until he was 80 and he was born in 1900. He used to tell me how his little sister drove the model T truck thru the Nebraska wheat fields while he and his half-brother shot from the back of the truck shooting 40 or 50 birds at a pass.

[Rat-30]

CAVEAT: Like ALL old shotguns, they should be checked out by a competent smith for condition and chamber length before firing.-Dave

Good advice, Dave, as always.

I used a Brownells chamber guage on a 1918 vintage Win 12 belonging to a friend. It' no wonder that 2-3/4 shells had such a punishing recoil...
Best I could tell had about a 2-5/8 - 2-9/16 chamber... :eek:

I lengthened the chamber and forcing cone with a reamer... now it works somewhat better than a lot of new ones, much smoother recoil and an even pattern.

Although this shotgun was a model 12, and not 1897, it's still a work of art, imho.

All the best,

[Dave McCracken]

Rat, thanks. I'll wager the usual flagon of mead that there are thousands of 12, 97s, and old A-5s out there in closets with owners that say something like,
"Yeah, that old thing still works, but it kicks the bejeebers our of ya"...

[Tom Held]

I hunted ducks on the Mississippi with a lot of old guys who used 97s. They were the preferred shotgun for market hunters in the turn of the century. It was not hard to put a length of bicycle tube on the magazine and load 9 to 10 shells in it.

I picked one up last year from Edgar Allen Poe, III (EAP I was his great uncle) along with a couple of other interesting firearms. This one has a 32" full choke barrel and an additional skeet barrel.

A friend of mine brought his father's 97 up to one of our live pigeon shoots and actually won a 5-bird race with it shooting against Perazzi's and Fabri's. Pretty impressive considering the gun spent one winter in 10 feet of water in a marsh. He dropped it overboard while duck hunting, could not find it until the spring with a grappling hook. Took it home, cleaned it up and still shoots it.

These really are great old guns. For you Cowboy shooters and HD guys please don't saw off any of the barrels. You've got a classic and don't ruin it. I'll sell you my 97 skeet barrel first.

Tom

[BigG]

I checked the chamber with a rule and it measures 3" :eek: Somebody must've gotten busy with a reamer sometime in the past. :)

[Dave McCracken]

For G*d's sake do not fire off a 3" mag in that 90 year old shotgun. Stick to target and lighter field loads. And let a good smith take a peek at it.

Tom, bring that thing to GC sometime, we could have a pumpgun shootoff. A round of trap,a round of skeet....

[BigG]

No fear, Dave. That s/g is in 90%+ condition and is as tight as the day it left New Haven. The bore and chamber is mirror bright and smooth as a cat's behind.

No 3" shells, or even heavier than tgt loads will ever be shoved up her innards. I have it mainly for the nostalgia and the remembrance of my dad who carried one as a patrolman on the Detroit Police Dept years ago.

What would be the std chamber depth c. 1913 for a 12 bore scattergun?

[Dave McCracken]

Whew....

TTBOMK, they started going to 2 3/4" in the 19-teens, so you're at the watershed. Let a smith check it out.

And nostalgia is fine, memories are great, but that 97 was built to be used....

[BigG]

Headin to Gun Club today. :D

[JNewell]

I share all of the admiring views on the 1897, but...like another family of JMB designs, it does kind of dump its guts when you cycle the action...between that, the large ejection port and the bolt cycling out the rear of the receiver, it seems like a design that's very subject to water and 'stuff' getting into the works. A classic nevertheless...have come so close to buying one several times...No. 1 son wants one of the Norinco repros...

[BigG]

Here it be, y'all! :D http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=536945

[Dave McCracken]

Nice, BA/UU/R and enjoy....

[Gila Jorge]

Shot a 97 30 inch full as a kid 35 years ago. In addition to
slam firing the half cock safety could not be trusted. Maybe it was
just that particular gun but be darn careful. Mine was a great shooter
but too much drop in the stock made it kick rather stoutly as I recall.
A straighter stock would tame some of that recoil. For certain,
nothing sounds quitre like racking a a 97. Gets everones attention
really quickly. Blessings and yours looks pristine.