Range - Sights Adjustment


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natural marksman
November 24, 2008, 11:37 AM
Hi everyone.

I don't own any guns yet, nor have I actually fired a rifle before (I do handguns), but I was just curious in case I ever came across one...hehe!

Was thinking about how you need to adjust the sights of a gun to accomodate for a particular range.

I know that on the M16/M4 rifles and the other AR15-type guns that the wider apeture is for targets between 0 and 200 meters, and the tiny apeture is for targets out past 200 meters.

Is it the same with the M1 Garand and M1/M2/M3 carbines? How does it work with other rifles?

Would greatly appreciate any info anyone has on this...

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Sheldon
November 24, 2008, 12:23 PM
The sights on the AR15/M16 do flip. The finer aperture is supposed to allow a more generous field of view for closer range use. Flipping it to the finer aperture allows a finer picture for further range precision. The whole rear sight is adjustable for elevation and windage adjustment in addition to just flipping between the aperture sizes. The Garand and M14 have a single rear aperture, but are fully adjustable for elevation and windage using thumbscrew adjustments. Most adjustable sights work that way.

natural marksman
November 25, 2008, 08:12 AM
Ok so what you're saying is that - for the M14 and M1 - you need to adjust the elevation knob to set the rear apeture up with the right elevation for shooting at different ranges?

If I've got it all correct, with the elevation knob and all, does that mean the elevation knob (for the Garand and M14) has preset settings that you switch to for different ranges?

it's just that shooting with the same apeture, I'd think if it's zeroed at a particular range, at closer or further ranges, the point of aim might be higher or lower. I know that a lot of old bolt action rifles, and others like the AK's have a sliding adjuster where you adjust for 100m range increments.

So you just fiddle with the rear sight elevation (left hand knob, right?), simple as that?

Andrew

dmazur
November 25, 2008, 02:28 PM
M1 Garand has an elevation adjustment knob which is marked for yards. A "2" represents 200 yds, "4" 400 yds, etc. I believe the intent was to be able to adjust the sights for engaging the enemy at these estimated ranges, which were quite large. From what I understand, the utility of this dated back to WWI with trench warfare. However, as the Garand was mostly used in WWII and Korea, I'm not sure how much sight adjustment actually occurred, after the soldier knew what his "battle zero" was supposed to be for that rifle.

Other receiver sights for hunting applications are typified by the Williams receiver sight. There are marks on these sights, but they are generally to permit restoring an adjustment after it is disturbed. I haven't heard of hunters tweaking their receiver sights during a hunt. (The concept of "point blank range" enters here -- set the zero for something like 270 yds and you can effectively shoot at deer-sized targets anywhere out to, perhaps, 350 yds without the need to "hold high". While the POI is higher than POA at closer distances, it's still in the target's vital region.)

For target applications, on the other hand, it is common to click up for elevation and also to set an appropriate amount of windage. The target distances are generally known to the shooters, and can be ranges of 600 or even 1000 yds. "Sighters" are generally permitted to allow correcting for wind. These sights may have numbers, but they represent total MOA of correction rather than range in yards. The shooters have to refer to "drop charts" for the load they are shooting.

This isn't a complete answer, but it probably shows there is quite a bit more to rifle sights than a quick examination might imply... :)

natural marksman
November 25, 2008, 09:02 PM
That's heaps. Thanks for your input, that's the kind of info I was hoping to get.

Thanks again guys, I appreciate it

Andrew

natural marksman
November 25, 2008, 11:44 PM
Just a few (unrelated to the original question) questions:

1 - I know the M1 Garand comes in .30-06 and 7.62x51mm, but can you get it in other calibres, such as - for example - .223 Remington or .308 Winchester? One day when I get a Garand, I want one in .223

2 - Can you get M1's with the body of the gun made from something other than wood, like some sort of polymer or something? And if so, what colours would they come in?

3 - I know with the en bloc clips of the M1, you need to have the top of the gun clear of obstruction to load and unload it. That'd make mounting optics somewhat annoying, I would think. Is it possible to mount a scope to the gun - small ones like a 4x and even large ones like a 10x magnification? How do you mount a scope to a gun that wasn't designed for optics?

Thanks in advance for any info anyone can provide.

Andrew

dmazur
November 26, 2008, 12:15 AM
Well,

1. For practical purposes, the 7.62x51 caliber is .308 Winchester. Yes, the Garand has been modified to use this round. It requires either a (dangerous) barrel insert or a barrel chambered for 7.62 NATO, and a magazine block that prevents accidental insertion of an enbloc loader with a longer round (like .30-06). Other calibers are available, as custom work generally. Fulton Armory, for example, offers a Garand chambered in .270 Winchester. (Easy because it is just a necked-down .30-06) I saw a custom Garand chambered in .243 Winchester. (Not quite as easy as the .270, but as the .243 is a necked-down .308, this requires the magazine block in addition to a barrel chambered for .243 Winchester.) The .223 Remington is going to be almost impossible, due to the different base dimension of the case. The Garand really can't handle anything that won't fit the enbloc, and the .223 won't fit...

2. There is some kind of plastic Garrand stock on the market for around $100, but opinions of it are not favorable as it isn't reinforced. MPI Stocks makes a Garand stock, but it is quite expensive and is not drop-in, as far as I know. As it is fiberglass, you (or your gunsmith) are expected to paint it whatever color you like after handling the problem of fitting it to the barreled action. There are also SAGE alloy stocks available for the Garand, for a very high price -

Sage Garand stock (http://www.sageinternationalltd.com/si/access/ebr.html#m1)

3. There are two basic ways to mount a scope on a Garand. One is the original way, with an offset scope mount. These are available, as are leather cheek pads to solve the offset head position required to use the scope. The other way is a "scout mount", which generally replaces the rear handguard. Some shooters mount a red-dot here (like an Eotech) and others mount a long eye-relief scope. As the scope is in a forward location, I believe lower powers are customary, but a 10X should work if available in a LER model.

An aside -

Has Australia changed the laws banning semi-auto rifles? I read of a recent interest in Remington 7615's, as these are a pump rifle that is chambered for the .223 Remington. (And accepts AR-15 magazine, too...) The reason for the interest? Because they're legal in Australia. So, regardless of the caliber, how does a Garand become legal?

natural marksman
November 26, 2008, 12:49 AM
Stupid me. I was under the assumption that the relationship between .308 Winchester and 7.62x51mm was a similar relationship as the one between .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm - not fully interchangeable. Forgive my ignorance :)

Oh man! It would be nice if they made them in .223 caliber. And there's no point getting it in polymer of fibreglass bodies, it'd just be cheaper for a wooden one.

I guess this means if I was to get one, it'd be easiest to get it in .30-06. No worries then, I could just scab ammo from my uncle! :)

Well, I'm sure that semi automatics are legal to own here...although the basis for that is based on the news report I saw a while back, where two gunmen shot at a house with .30 cal semi automatics. They may not have been Garands and they gunmen might have acquired them illegally (how, I don't know), as they had the guts to shoot at someones house so may have been criminals, so I don't know for sure.

If you like, I can research it. Thanks for the info.

Andrew

Swampy
November 26, 2008, 07:54 AM
Well, I'm sure that semi automatics are legal to own here...although the basis for that is based on the news report I saw a while back, where two gunmen shot at a house with .30 cal semi automatics. They may not have been Garands and they gunmen might have acquired them illegally (how, I don't know), as they had the guts to shoot at someones house so may have been criminals, so I don't know for sure.

Nat Mark,

I think you will find that most semi-autos are now banned in the land of Oz. Has been that way for some years.

Best regards,
Swampy

Garands forever

wanderinwalker
November 26, 2008, 10:18 AM
I recall that the Australian contingent at the National Matches at Camp Perry, OH, borrow their gear from some friends in, Texas I think. Can't remember specifically.

As for adjusting sights and ranges, well, it depends on the usage of your rifle.

On a known-distance Highpower range, you just click your sights up for the target. The general rule is (forgive me here, working off of memory), from a 100-yard zero, each hundred yards is 2-3-3-4-4, with each number being minutes of UP elevation for 200, 300, 400, 500 and 600 yards. So if one click of your elevation knob is 1" at 100 yards, then you need 2-clicks to be on at 200, 3 more from 200 to 300 (or 5 clicks if going straight from 100 to 300).

For a field/hunting rifle, it is normal to zero a couple of inches high at 100 yards, and then hold dead on out to around 250-270 yards for cartridges in the .308/.270/.30-06 class. The difference being, a hit in the vital zone "only" has to land in a circle 6-8" across, whereas on a competition target the goal is to be in a 1-MOA circle in the middle of the target.

Hope that helps.

Jenrick
November 26, 2008, 01:55 PM
The USA Marksmanship Unit teaches 3 minutes per 100 yards, and it's what I've always used.

Now if you do something like forget you zero'd with a center hold and shoot a 6 o'clock hold, AND forget to dial in your elevation moving from 200 to 300 you get a really nice group in the 5 ring.

-Jenrick

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