7.62x39 vs. deer results...


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J23
November 24, 2008, 01:22 PM
This morning between 830 and 9am, a big doe came into the stand I was hunting on my propety. (WV opener...)

She was standing quartering away at approximatly 20ish yards. I was elevated 25 feet in my stand.

I held half way up and towards the rear of the ribs and put one through her out of my 7.62x39 CZ carbine. The bullet entered halfway up, right where I held, angled forward and down exiting in the 'pocket' just behind the off shoulder.

She pinwheeled, layed for approximatly 10 seconds, got up and ran about 30 yards and laid down. When I got to her about five minutes later, she was still alive! I administered the coup de grace with my .22 handgun I carry with me to the rear of her head, which was up off the ground. Im not sure how cohereant she was, but I was a little upset when I seen the shot and how long it took her to expire.

The load used max 28.5 grains of AA2015BR at round 2300 fps. The bullet was a Hornady 123 grain .310" Interlock (OLD, OLD lot, the lead tips had frosted,) Win. Cases and CCI 200 primers.

The autopsy revealed that the bullet entered and exited with a hold about the size of a dime. The heart was just missed, which the bullet only really hitting the lungs and some of the plumbing, no bones were struck. To me anyhow, used to a .270 and 130 grain Ballistic tips, the bullet didnt seem to expand. I looked behind where she was standing and couldnt locate it. As that bullet is designed for that caliber, I was under the impression that it would expand at lower velocties? ...especially that close? Do you guys think, from your experiences that the bullet did its job, expanding? The lungs where a mess, as they always are, deflated and I for one can never really follow a bullets path through them. I guess I was just expecting a larger exit hole???? Could the bullet's age and the fact that the tips were frosted be a contributing factor? To me, it just seemed liek the bullet acted like a FMJ?

Thoughts?

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Funderb
November 24, 2008, 01:28 PM
You might try a nice hollow point.
Some times soft points don't do so well if they don't hit something moderately hard.

BornAgainBullseye
November 24, 2008, 01:32 PM
Bump those interlocks and get the .308 110grain AMAX or the SPEER 125grain TNT hollow point. Longer range may suffer due to the .308 vs .310 bore, but within 100 yards you will be able to dispatch deer.

rbernie
November 24, 2008, 01:32 PM
The Hornady 123gr .3105 SP tends to be a little soft (especially when compared to the Sierra 125gr), and even with the itty bitty deer we get in Teaxas I usually see a nickel-to-quarter size exit hole. Dunno why your didn't, but that's not ordinary.

A double-lung shot certainly is a killing shot.

J23
November 24, 2008, 01:38 PM
Do you think the bullet's age had anything to do with them... as I said, the exposed lead tips are frosted... not the usual lead color. I used my thumbnail and its shiny lead underneith.

R.W.Dale
November 24, 2008, 01:39 PM
Without equal in 7.62x39 the 125grn nosler ballistic is tip the deer bullet. When I had a cz527 carbine I shot many of these bullets and they always delivered outstanding accuracy. These bullets are perfect for this chambering because according to nosler they'll reliably expand at impact velocities as low as 1600 fps

Also ditch the AA2015BR and buy some aa1680 or n120, both these propellants will push 125g bullets beyond 2400 fps in a cz carbine.

see this tread where I used this bullet on a large doe from a 7.62x39mm ar15 at 278yds
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=405210

When I got to her about five minutes later

On a double lung shot you need to give the animal much much more time than 5 minutes to expire......trust me!

Funderb
November 24, 2008, 01:42 PM
Could have just been a bad bullet. Lead does not harden with age. Just an unlucky day for the deer.

R.W.Dale
November 24, 2008, 01:44 PM
well the deer did only manage go a few yds, so how exactly did the bullet fail?

Shade00
November 24, 2008, 01:52 PM
I was planning on hunting a little with my SKS using Wolf 153gr soft points, but changed my mind at the last minute and picked up a Stevens in 7mm-08. Still, if I were hunting whitetail, I would take the Wolf or Corbon 150-ish grain soft points. Ballistically they're a lot closer to 30-30 than the 123gr stuff.

Shawnee
November 24, 2008, 01:54 PM
Do I understand the path of the bullet correctly?:confused:

She was "quartering away" and the bullet entered the near side at the back of the ribs and center (top-to-bottom of the deer) and, traveling at a fairly steep angle, exited nearly at the bottom of the chest behind the off-side leg?

If I understand correctly, then I would think your bullet did little except rip through a little of the back of the lungs (or lung), deflating them, of course. I would expect her to live a few minutes with such a shot and probably to run too.

The steeper the downward angle the higher on the deer you want your bullet to enter.

From 25 ft. in the air and a target 20 yds. away, I would place the shot higher on the body - probably tucked right above the line of the "elbow" and crowding the front so the bullet would exit in front of and low of the off-shoulder. That placement would likely wreck the spine and/or near shoulder and slice through the top of one or both lungs. Hitting the spine would have dropped her right there and may well have killed her instantly.

:cool:

MD_Willington
November 24, 2008, 02:08 PM
FreeRangeYoda covered quite a bit of 7.62*39 with a lot of comparisons. IIRC he posted the results at the AK Forum.

Barnaul loaded with the Ulyanovsk Machinery Plant 8M3 round usually work quite well...

see this post

http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4984497&postcount=12

Now you need to find just the Sapsan/Ulyanovsk 8M3 HP bullet and you can "Roll your own"

nathan
November 24, 2008, 02:38 PM
Those Ulyanovsk HP 8M3 s are devastating on hogs at closed range. My son put one down at 20 yds. The exit was like a baseball size wound.

mgregg85
November 24, 2008, 02:45 PM
My dad uses a mini-30 loaded with soft points. He didn't get a deer yet this year but last year he dropped a nice one with two shots of federal 123 grain soft point at about 50 yards. The first shot went behind the heart and through the lungs. The deer dropped but started to get up again and he shot again and hit it in the spine, it died quickly after that. I'm not convinced the second shot was needed but he really doesn't like to try and track deer in a swamp.

You could always try the EXTREME SHOCK KALASHOCK ammo.:cool:
http://www.midwayusa.com/midwayusa/staticpages/highres/166588.jpg
Only $50 for a box of 20.:barf:

This ammunition offers controlled penetration and reduced ricochet/over-penetration potential. The explosive entry of this ammunition upon contact with the target makes it desirable by both hunters and tactical marksmen alike. This ammunition is new production, non-corrosive, in boxer primed, reloadable brass cases.
What will that mall ninja company come up with next?

xd45gaper
November 24, 2008, 03:18 PM
you should have used an AK with a 40 round Mag. i mean really who shoots a deer ONCE? once she jumped up you should have put the slector on plunder and let the lead really fly!!!:neener:

lol i carry a home brewed romanian G, with 5 rounds of 154 grain wolf SP. sorry i havent shot a deer yet this year with one so i cant report on how well they kill.

i orginally was going to carry the wolf HP iirc they are 125 grain HP. once i found out they had 154 grain bullets for 7.62x39 i bought those with the thinking that a heavier bullet would do more damage compared to a smaller lighter hollow point. i could be wrong though!

R.W.Dale
November 24, 2008, 03:20 PM
that extreme shock stuff looks suspiciously like 154grain wolf with the SP replaced with a Hornady leverrevolution 30-30 bullet

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 24, 2008, 06:10 PM
that extreme shock stuff looks suspiciously like 154grain wolf with the SP replaced with a Hornady leverrevolution 30-30 bullet

Hmmm, you may be onto something there - wouldn't put it past them...

goon
November 24, 2008, 06:18 PM
The frosted lead shouldn't have mattered at all.
I think at 20 yards, if at all possible the best solution is to aim for the head. I've never seen a deer run away from a good head shot.
It's also way more forgiving about bullet construction. ;)

MT GUNNY
November 24, 2008, 06:40 PM
7.62x39? I hope you weren't using the AK 47:eek:, that's just not Ethical:scrutiny: for hunting, Just to many rounds that you could use to Kill.:rolleyes:




:D
I know you were using a CZ.

Paladin_Hammer
November 24, 2008, 06:53 PM
Huh. Try Remington made cartridges. Specifically anything 123 grain. Worked fine for me.

innerpiece
November 24, 2008, 08:10 PM
well.. the 7.62 worked great for me the one time I took a deer with it, out of a Yugo SKS at about 125yds, first shot, few seconds later... dead deer....

using wolf FMJ.....

ip.

Macmac
November 24, 2008, 08:34 PM
I think your deer doesn't watch Hollywood movies, and so didn't know to just drop dead. I'ld say you shot pretty well, but if you want faster kills, which is evident study the books harder, so you see the organs you intend to stop working more instantly and from the angles you expect to be shooting from.

A little lead oxide is meaningless. It is a simple fact wild animals just don't always drop, no matter how hard they get hit.

I shot a deer a long time ago, and have no memory of what ammo it was, but the gun was a 03 Springfield in 30-06. That bullet went thru the heart and both lungs, but I thought I missed clean.

The deer ran off over 1/4 mile and i found a hidiouse site when I found it. The whole woods in a 10 foot circle was tangled in red bits of lung, heart, blood everywhere up to 8 feet high, and that deer was about tied in a knott.

Another time with that same gun I shot a really big buck, dead on straight to the chest. That bullet cut the heart in half, and ruined both lungs and exited out the back end of the deer low, so no bad meat. But that deer just stood there looking around for me. I could see the bullet hole I was so close, and that deer seemed to stand there a long time, before it turned and walked away slow.

It was just like it wasn't shot at all.. I don't know for sure, but when I gutted it in about a hours time after it sauntered off and I allowed it to, the gut pile stanke of booze, That deer had been into some old ground dropped apples and I think that deer must have been tanked but good.

Since then I have been using a brown bess, which seems to tip em over pretty hard.

I think you did fine...

deepsouthshooter
November 24, 2008, 08:35 PM
was that .22 handgun rimfire? if so, was that legal in your state to kill a deer with a rimfire handgun??

Funderb
November 24, 2008, 08:57 PM
no need for legal semantics here, DSS. ^^^

NCsmitty
November 24, 2008, 09:07 PM
I think your rifle bullet did what it was designed to do. A lung shot isn't always instantaneous. The 7.62x39 doesn't have the shock effect like the 270 that you're used to, but it did take the deer down. And you dispatched the animal as any compassionate hunter would do.
I'm sure you'll enjoy the bounty that the good Lord provided.

NCsmitty

rangerruck
November 24, 2008, 11:36 PM
several factors were against you; all that you think is right, you were too close, it was still too fast, dear are thin, and light targets, the bullet didn't open up, the deer wasn't thick enought to open it up, didn't hit anything hard. A hollow point wouldve proly done the job, that close up.

trstafford
November 25, 2008, 11:00 PM
Just like most things in life it appears to be a matter of inches. If you had been over a few more inches and struck the heart, we would be posting to congratulate you on a fine shot.

PS

I also use a CZ carbine in 7,62x39

J23
December 3, 2008, 01:42 AM
So sickened with the performance of the Hornady 123 grain on deer, I loaded a few Graf's Hornady 123 VMax and shot a group, same load, with the expection of the seating depth, which wasnt as deep. [28.5 grains AA2015BR, CCI200 primers, WW cases..] Fired three, 3 shot groups at 100 yards from the bench. Same groups as I was getting with the Hornady IL's.. approximatly 1 to 1.25" at 100 yards [keep in mind, that is with the hunting scope I use, Burris Short Mag 4x20.] Any any rate, the POI was the same... I shot 3 of the VMax Load and 3 IL's that I had loaded, and I couldnt differentiate which were which, as they all were bunched together in the same inch-inch and a quarter group.

Took them out to collect a doe for the pot the next day... after several hours of still hunting, I happened upon a average sized WV doe [approximatly 150 lbs on the hoof] which trotted upon me and stopped just in time to look my way, broadside, UPhill this time at about a 30 degree angle, standing approximatly 40 yards away. I put the crosshairs about 1/3 of the way up on her ribs, just behind the shoulder and squeezed off a good one. She bound over the hill, out of sight, and I heard her crash about five seconds later. Of course she ran downhill into a creekbed, covering about 30 yards... most of which I think was momentum carrying her downhill. Dead when I reached her about 3 minutes later.

As I gutted, I performed the post Mortem:
THe bullet entered exactly where I aimed... missed the heart, shooting just about it, collapsing both lungs with fairly extensive damage, with bullet fragments (copper and lead) scattered throughout. I found no exit, and no bullet at that time.

Upon butchering her up this evening, I found the bullet, logged underneith the hide, on the opposite side in the ribcage. The bullet retained 81.1 grains as says my BBKII digital scale, demonstrating a perfect little mushroom, as you would see in the magazines (ill try to post pictures later if anyone is interested...) The bullet appears to have expandd back to the canniture on the 123 grain Hornady VMax and stopped abruptly, all the way around the circumfrance on the bullet at the canniture.

Though it is only one example, it is a promising load to say the least. I loaded up several more and hopefully Ill gather up one or two more, and will post the results on here ASAP.

BTW... a friend tryed talking me into the .308 Nosler Ballistic tips in the CZ carbine. I tried several powder/weight conbinations... and thats a big no. The .310 diameter bore wanted nothing to do with those bullets... the best group I got was about six inches at 100 yards... just FYI.

Sorry so long... just wanted to provide a little bit of bullet performance info.

Joe

nathan
December 3, 2008, 10:35 AM
Yesterday i was hunting in thick brush, I brought my Rem 243 youth with scope. On a shallow depression in the ground looks to be a deer bedding area, I settled quietly around 930 am. It was cold and I ve walked a long ways . Around were thick brush and pine trees. You hardly can see maybe past 40 yds. So there I was and suddenly i heard rustling sounds and a deer jumped in front of me above the depression around 20 yds. I had my rifle in the ground. I slowly pick it , heart pumping so fast and i slowly stood up . I made some noises and the deer looked back straight at me. Those big ears I remember. I took aim and what i see was plain dark bec there were brushes obscuring the view. Seconds ticking the deer still looking , I look off the lens to see wheres the deer. I see it was still looking at me, I aim again and when i did, the doe bolted out with a bleat. I heard another deer bolted out to safety at my back . There were two of them. The first deer runned another 20 yds , stopped and looked at me again, I tried to aim but it jumped fast into the woods. It was a closed encounter. Oh boy !!

I missed . I dont know but it happened. To think back, I should have remained quiet and slowly stood up but the rust got me. Or I should just have shot it with my Glock pistol that close. NO scope to aim. Or I should have a handy SKS with open sights . That would have me see the target right away.

Oh well theres always a second time . LOL

NCsmitty
December 3, 2008, 12:01 PM
nathan, a scoped rifle in the brush at 20yds is really tough to use. If you knew you were hunting in thick stuff, a 30-30 lever open sight at hand makes more sense or maybe the SKS with good soft points.
Hopefully you get another chance.

NCsmitty

d2wing
December 3, 2008, 04:28 PM
It is normal for deer to not die instantly with a fatal shot to the heart or lungs or neck, even with a better bullet and weapon like an 06 or 7mm. I would have waited more than five minutes. Anyway you did the right thing.

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