[HoosierQ]

OK. Obviously FMJ has a couple of drawbacks for personal protection and HD, over-penetration (depending on the caliber) and the whole lack of expansion / wound cavity thing. For the sake of discussion, let's kind of leave .45 ACP out of the mix (or not, up to you) because an awful lot of people think that 230 grain FMJs pack a wallop.

The gun ignorant folks think of hollow points as "cop killers", think they are more powerful, shoot through cars, you name it.

So let's say you are armed lawfully and the SHTF in your little world and you have to use deadly force. Would the press, the prosecutor, heck...the jury, heaven forbid, be more likely to look favorably on the person using a) good old fashioned FMJs, the same stuff allowed by the Geneva convention, the same stuff the boys use in combat, the cheap target ammo you get at Wally's (even though the gun savy know it may over penetrate), or b) someone using carefully engineered anti-personnel rounds, "designed to kill effectively", which the person had to seek out and pay extra for etc (even though the gun savy know they are designed not to over penetrate).

Given that a lot of "them" know nothing about firearms and ammo, would "they" make a distinction when the smoke cleared? My scenario assumes that nobody other than a violent criminal and an armed law abiding citizen were in any way invovled in my scenario.

What do you think?

[RKBABob]

You can make any ammo sound evil... some ignorant person is sure to fall for it.

Would the press, the prosecutor, heck...the jury, heaven forbid, be more likely to look favorably on the person using a) good old fashioned FMJs, the same stuff allowed by the Geneva convention, the same stuff the boys use in combat...Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant was using Full Metal Jacket, MILITARY grade ammunition!



carefully engineered anti-personnel rounds, "designed to kill effectively", which the person had to seek out and pay extra for Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant was using ammunition so deadly, that its forbidden for even the MILITARY to use!


Lead Round Nose:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant was using bullets made out of a substance so toxic, that its actually regulated by the EPA!


Lead Wadcutters:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant was using specialiazed ammunition designed to cut wads out of his intended victim!


Rat Shot:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant was using a special ammunition that's designed to spray lead pellets in all directions, creating a rain of death anywhere the gun was pointed!


Blanks:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant was using ammunition designed to scare and frighten his victims!


Rubber Bullets:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant was using the same style of ammunition used to suppress political dissidents living under a communist dictatorship!


Cowboy Loads:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant was using something called a cowboy load, in an attempt to re-create the wild west right in your back yard!

[HoosierQ]

Gee Bob...and I was being so serious too...but I definitely get it.

[Prepster]

If it's commonly available commercial ammunition that doesn't have a website featuring anti-terrorist agents, you're probably fine, although the above prosecutorial scenarios are certainly possible. There was a big discussion a while back about reloads having a similar effect, I'm sure you could find it if you're interested.

A good shoot is a good shoot, and hopefully a jury of your peers would have the mental faculties to determine valid information from shock material.

[SHusky57]

Call your local sheriff and use the same bullets they use if possible.

Then you can always say that you only used what your local law enforcement had deemed to be the best round for personal protection.

But for the most part, you just need a good lawyer who knows his stuff, a sheriff/chief of police who supports citizens right to self defense, and a district attorney who believes in the rights of citizens to protect themselves.

[cbrgator]

Hoosier, barring special circumstances such as the criminal is wearing body armor, JHP's are far more effective than FMJ's. That being said, you will want to use whatever will most ensure your safety against an attacker, which is JHP. You should be much more concerned for your life than what a prosecutor/jury thinks. It's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

[SHusky57]

Actually, if I was tried and judged guilty by 12 and had to endure years of gang rape in prison showers.... I would rather be dead.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

Full metal jackets might be a good option if a) you are a good shot and b) during winter months when the BG might have on layers of clothing and more than likely a thick, heavy coat (where I live in the north).

I suppose some of that clothing would effectively "clog" the hollow point, so you really have what amounts to a FMJ anyway! When I retrieved some of my 500 Magnum hollow points from the berm at the range, I found that some actually did not open up due to the hollow (point) being filled with DIRT!

I'm almost tempted to go with FMJ's (my "carry" gun seems to like them best so far out of the two loads I've tried)!

[mbt2001]

This whole flap over bullets makes me want to :barf:... I don't care if the someone is using rocketpropelled Klingon Plasma death ray bullets.

Was

He

Justified

In

Firing?

If yes, then case closed. If no then case closed. WE are ALL potential jurors.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

Was

He

Justified

In

Firing?

The object is to NEVER pull the gun - much less USE IT - unless it is either your life or the bad guy's.

PERIOD.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

if the H-P does'nt expand then you have the 'penetration' of a FMJ- right?
I've tryed cutting an 'X' into a cast lead slug useing a jeweler's saw - you need to see what that does to wet phone books.
what would it do to a human target? I don't know but a heart shot with it and dead is dead.
first make sure it's a good shoot.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

if the H-P does'nt expand then you have the 'penetration' of a FMJ- right?
Technically speaking, correct.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

Marlin 45 carbine

Was that a Semi-wadcutter, or hollow point you cut the X into?

[Vern Humphrey]

The problem is, there can be two trials. You can be aquitted at a criminal trial, and still lose a civil trial (look at O.J. Simpson.) It is in the civil trial where the type of ammuniton you used will be used against you.

Some states have laws that preclude "wrongful death" lawsuits if you are not criminally prosecuted -- and we should all push for such laws in our states.

[makarovnik]

For gun play on the road I prefer the FMJ. In a 7.62 x 25 it goes in one door and out the other. Watch out for innocent bystanders though.

[BlindJustice]

I agree in maiking sure it's a good shoot.
I'll leave the what-ifs post-shoot to others.

FMJ vs JHPs - A timely Range session yesterday
---------------------------------

A friend and I went out in the country to a mutual friends
house and acreage. I live in the Palouse - rolling dry land
wheat country. We took 8 12+ inch diameter pumpkins I had
picked up the day after halloween when they went to half price.
My friend had save up about the same number of 1 gallon plastic
milk jugs. We arrived at JT's - we took a plug out of the top of
the pumpkins - filled em with water - replaced the plug and duct
taped them. THe gallon jugs were filled with water and the lids
were duct taped securely so they wouldn't pop the top

So, on top of 2 foot high split logs a pumpkin was placed in front
of a water jug.

S&W 625 5" Bbl.
WWB 230 gr. FMJ - just punched a hole through both
WWB 230 gr. JHP - looked like there was some expansion
since the exit hole of the pumpkin was about an inch in diameter
the gal. jug, had a bit bigger exit hole
.45 Auto Rim 225 Gr. Barnes XPB HP 900+ FPS
About the same exit hole but the gal jug had a bigger hole on
exit of the bullet
.45 ACP Double Tap
200 gr. Speer Gold Dot @ 1,125 FPS
About a 2" hole exiting the pumpkin
and the gal jug had a torn hole, but the
plastic also cracked so it was a good 2.5"
plus irregular, and the most water spray

CZ 75B - didn't have any FMJ
just WWB 147 gr. JHPs along with Double Tap
147 gr. Speer Gold Dot JHP @ 1135 fps.

Well smaller holes overall but a good diffference
tween the WWB and Gold DOts with the extra 150 FPS

No bullets recovered - I think next time I'll
try getting a box of sand as a backstop to sift
through ALso I forgot to try the 200 gr. Leadhead
SWC @ 1,025 FPS.... Wind Chill. We decided to
do something along the same lines in the spring JT's
wife had his digital camera.

Oh, and I got to try a Walther PPK/S .380 ACP
with Mag Tech JHPs - definietly down on power
compared to a 9mm LUger. and the little pocket pistl
didn't draw blood on the web of my hand but after only
1 mag the web of my hand knew it.

YFMJ & JHPsMV

Randall

[Deanimator]

Which do you think would be a bigger problem:

You put an assailant out of action with a 9mm JHP to the center of mass. It stays in his body.

You shoot an assailant with a 9mm FMJ center of mass. The bullet does a through and through and kills a 3 year old a half block away. Your assailant continues the fight maiming or killing you.

[Vern Humphrey]

When you fire a shot, you are using deadly force -- and you are going to have to justify that to men who really don't want to believe you.

If you shot to warn, to wound, or to scare, you were still using deadly force, but you have admitted it wasn't necessary. You go to jail.

[lechiffre]

WE are ALL potential jurors.


i don't think any of us are.

[Steve C]

The old axiom "Its better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6" is my guiding principle.

JHP's give me and my family a better chance to survive a deadly encounter with an opponent intent of our death so that's what I use. Most of the ammo I carry is LEO surplus so the excessively deadly argument would be moot. I carry this type of ammo because its some of the most effective defense ammo you can use.

[Matthew Courtney]

People who worry too much what others think rarely take enough responsibility for their own safety to carry a gun. Load your gun with what you think will work the best for your purposes. Worrying about what others think gets people killed.

[Rob G]

I don't care if the someone is using rocketpropelled Klingon Plasma death ray bullets.

Do they make those in .45 ACP? :rolleyes:

But seriously, you should use what's most effective. I think in another discussion about this not too long ago someone pointed out that there's only been like one or two cases where ammo selection was used to against the defendant. So I'd say, shoot what your gun will feed reliably, and that you think best fits your needs.

[skeptiq]

I recently read somewhere that a gentleman with a CCW shot and killed someone and was on trial and was found guilty. After the trial one person on the jury said it was the JHP that made the decision for them to convict.

That being said, I feel it is a valid concern, but when it comes down to my family's safety, I'll gladly take that risk and hire a helluva lawyer if it goes down that road.

[cbrgator]

I'd like to see where you read that. Conviction on the grounds of JHP ammo seems weird to me. Link it if can find it again.

[mbt2001]

i don't think any of us are.

Maybe I am missing something but I do not know what you are talking about. Are you not a citizen? Have you served on a jury in the last year? Then what is the issue? I get called once every 2 years or so, if I am on a SD shooting jury, then I will only pay attention to one thing. Given the evidence and circumstance, would I have fired?

All this fluff about what bullets is a waste of time and a redherring.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

Which do you think would be a bigger problem:

You put an assailant out of action with a 9mm JHP to the center of mass. It stays in his body.

You shoot an assailant with a 9mm FMJ center of mass. The bullet does a through and through and kills a 3 year old a half block away. Your assailant continues the fight maiming or killing you.

I wouldn't shoot unless I am certain the bullet I am using will not overpenetrate and possibly injure/kill others. Always be CERTAIN of your BACKSTOP.

In the scenario given, I wonder if the 9mm jacketed hollow point could actually stop short of killing/maiming the bad guy if the bad guy has enough layers of clothes on with a heavy coat over top in which case the assailant may overpower and maim/kill you.

[jim4065]

Maybe what lechiffre means (although I don't know for sure) is that the lawyer representing the bad guy is NOT going to allow most of us to sit on a jury judging his clients claims. The only times I was selected to go down for jury duty it was educational to watch the "white males" or, for that matter, ANY well-dressed "prosperous" male citizen get thrown out as a potential juror. They didn't even have to use one of their "arbitrary exclusions" with me - 'cause I failed to qualify on three points:

1. Clean-cut
2. Middle-aged
3. Male

That's reality. Whether it's "right" or not depends on your viewpoint.

[skeptiq]

The case I read was about Harold Fish from Arizone. Here are a few sites I found.

This one is the article where the juror was swayed by the type of ammo (still the Fish case):
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15199221/page/5/

Here is Fish's defense site:
http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/welcome.htm

If anything it's an interesting read!

[mi2az]

You do not want penetration so that your neighbor may get hit. LAW SUIT....

[Japle]

I wouldn't shoot unless I am certain the bullet I am using will not overpenetrate and possibly injure/kill others. Always be CERTAIN of your BACKSTOP.

Boy, that sure sounds good. Might be a tad difficult to manage when someone's shooting at you and you've got major tunnel vision.

Let's see..... Try to save my life or look to see if there's a kid in the shadows a half block away.

Decisions, decisions!

[Mike J]

I believe JHP would be best to use. More effective, less chance of overpenetration. I agree with Shusky about finding out what your local PD uses-caliber & cartridge wise. Hard for them to demonize it when they use the same thing.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

Quote:
I wouldn't shoot unless I am certain the bullet I am using will not overpenetrate and possibly injure/kill others. Always be CERTAIN of your BACKSTOP.

Boy, that sure sounds good. Might be a tad difficult to manage when someone's shooting at you and you've got major tunnel vision.

Let's see..... Try to save my life or look to see if there's a kid in the shadows a half block away.

Decisions, decisions!

What I was trying to say is to know BEFOREHAND what your gun will do in different scenarios. Know if your gun will penetrate a door, sheetrock walls, etc. and act accordingly when the time comes. Don't wait until "the time comes" to then wonder :eek: whether your gun is going to overpenetrate and hit the kid a half a block away.

"Being certain" of what your gun will (or won't) do takes practice and shooting at many different materials as opposed to trying to figure it out while someone is shooting at you.

Shouldn't we ALWAYS be certain of our backstop, even if it means some kind of preparation BEFOREHAND?

Not doing that would be the same as taking your car out in an ice storm and driving 60 MPH, hoping for nothing bad to happen.

[CoRoMo]

I thought that I heard something about a couple states like NJ that prohibit the use of hollow points in carry weapons. FMJ only, so that is why a couple ammo manufacturers now offer expanding FMJ rounds.

A little note...

My CCW class recommended the use of hollow points for self defense.

My Dad & Mom's CCW class recommended the use of FMJ because of the "evil connotations" associated with hollow points.

Weird huh? No... it's just unproductive because my Dad actually carries FMJ in his defense gun. When/if he carries.

[mgregg85]

Lawyers can and will make you look bad by any means neccesary, no matter what ammo you use. So relax and use the most effective ammo available to you and worry about the potential trial afterwords.

[IMTHDUKE]

WE are ALL potential jurors.

I don't think any of us are either...the moment the DA in jury selection finds that you ever even though about owning a gun....you go home.

[ChemicalArts]

Was

He

Justified

In

Firing?


Exactly!

That perfectly sums up the issue. As long as the bullets you use are legal, the shape of the tip shouldn't affect your decision to use deadly force. I live in Texas (a pretty gun friendly state), but even here, you still have to be justified in your actions. This is not only a requirement of the law, but of our conscience. If someone threatens my family, it is my responsibility to stop him. If someone does not appear to be a threat, then it is my responsibilty to use good judgement and proceed with caution. I think we'd all prefer not to shoot if at all possible. It is one of the last options on a list of unpleasant options. For me, it is only ahead of the bad guy hurting an innocent person.

[Auburn1992]

When I retrieved some of my 500 Magnum hollow points from the berm at the range, I found that some actually did not open up due to the hollow (point) being filled with DIRT!


Hollow points are generally designed to expand in water type substances, not dirt.

I was also wondering why some of the .40 HP's I shot didn't expand in dirt, then found out.

[oneounceload]

dead is dead, so in a serious scenario, you do whatever it takes to stay alive and go from there

[DarkSoldier]

FMJ or JHP, the lethality of the bullet is unimportant. The ability to stop threats, however, is critical.

I use hollow points because I believe that bullet type gives me an advantage in stopping power, not because they are supposed to be more deadly.

For practical purposes on the street and for legal purposes in court, the end in view is not to kill but to incapacitate the attacker/s as quickly as possible and thereby stop the threat. It is critical to articulate that point to everyone you talk to post-shooting from the the moment after you pull the trigger until you are called upon to explain yourself in the next life.

Just my thoughts. Others may feel differently.

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?s=8867721

So, basically, it says that you shoot to stop the apparent attacker, whatever s/he may brandishing/weilding, and then once they stop, you must STOP shooting. This is Vermont, other states may vary considerably. Chester, Vermont - August 19, 2008
The issue of necessary self-defense has taken center stage in the case of a shooting that happened in a Chester park. One man shot another but claims it was all in self-defense. Kyle Bolaski, 24, says it was justified self-defense because he was being chased by a man with an ax.

But Bolaski was charged with murder because he fired two shots. The prosecutor agrees the first shot was justified self-defense but said the second was unnecessary and that made it a murder. "The deceased stopped pursuing the defendant and was no longer brandishing an ax," Windsor County Prosecutor Robert Sand explained on Monday. "Jurors may well be reluctant to second-guess someone who's in that type of situation," said Robert Simpson, a former Chittenden County Prosecutor.

Simpson declined specific comment about the Bolaski case, but he says there have been similar cases where defendants who claim self-defense and perhaps used way too much force nonetheless got sympathy from the jury. "They put themselves in a situation where they or themselves or their families are threatened. And it is necessary to respond with deadly force then to say you used too much... It's very difficult for them to say, gee I don't know if I were in that situation if I would have been able to have stopped," Simpson said. A recent case indicates Simpson may have a valid point. Last year, Skylar Underhill was tried for murder for fatally shooting an unarmed man at a party in Burlington. Underhill claimed it was self-defense because he thought the man was reaching for a knife. The jury agreed. Underhilll walked away scot free.

Simpson says it's all about the fundamental legal principle that permits citizens to kill in self-defense.
"If you reasonably believe that the person you want to use the gun on presents an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury to you or your family and you reasonably believe it's necessary to use deadly force to stop them," Simpson explained. For now, Bolaski is jailed on the murder charge while police continue to sort out all the facts including that of witnesses with conflicting accounts.
Brian Joyce - WCAX News


Another good, related article:
http://www.wcax.com/global/story.asp?s=9417395

And yet ANOTHER ONE!
http://www.wcax.com/global/story.asp?s=9421053

[jeff-10]

The Florida "Stand-your-ground" law does not take into account make or model of the ammunition you choose to use. Since you are granted immunitiy from civil as well as criminal suits it really doesn't matter what the lawyers say.

[S&Wfan]

. . . So let's say you are armed lawfully and the SHTF in your little world and you have to use deadly force. Would the press, the prosecutor, heck...the jury, heaven forbid, be more likely to look favorably on the person using a) good old fashioned FMJs, the same stuff allowed by the Geneva convention, the same stuff the boys use in combat, the cheap target ammo you get at Wally's (even though the gun savy know it may over penetrate), or b) someone using carefully engineered anti-personnel rounds, "designed to kill effectively", which the person had to seek out and pay extra for etc (even though the gun savy know they are designed not to over penetrate).

Given that a lot of "them" know nothing about firearms and ammo, would "they" make a distinction when the smoke cleared? My scenario assumes that nobody other than a violent criminal and an armed law abiding citizen were in any way invovled in my scenario.

What do you think?


I think you are thinking like a Sheep, not a Sheepdog.

Hell, if it comes, will come suddenly and totally without warning. While you are thinking about whether to act or not, the time of decision will render your thought a moot point . . .

If you are a sheepdog, not a sheep, you will counter-react instantly with sudden and deadly resolve . . . and if you are well-trained and well practiced, you have a better chance of surviving a surprise attack.

Right now, you are sadly so far behind the required action curve that the least of your worries would be surviving a court case.

To hesitate, is to die.

Train to fight instantly, with sudden fury . . . or you're safer being am unarmed sheep and not resisting at all.

[mljdeckard]

Isn't homocide a hate crime?

Stand your ground laws don't guarantee immunity from prosecution from anything. All it takes is a prosecutor with an axe and a judge with a stone to grind it on.

[moooose102]

Actually, if I was tried and judged guilty by 12 and had to endure years of gang rape in prison showers.... I would rather be dead
ME TOO!
i carry silvertips, just in case i come into contact with a WEREWOLF!

[ByAnyMeans]

I would'nt worry about a hp bullet used in a shooting becasue it's probably what your local police use and definitely what your state police use. Let a prosecutor bring it up and have your lawyer rip him a new one for "sensationalistic" tactics

[Deanimator]

I wouldn't shoot unless I am certain the bullet I am using will not overpenetrate and possibly injure/kill others.
Yeah, but how are you going to get him into a CT scanner BEFORE you shoot him, and how will you KEEP him there?

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

There is plenty of information on the internet about real life bullet placement and penetration. Along with that information, you could do testing of various loads yourself to get a pretty good idea of what will penetrate what.

If I were using my 500 Magnum to shoot a bad guy, I would certainly want to be sure there is NO ONE in the vicinity BEHIND said bad guy.

OTOH, if I shoot the bad guy in the head with a 38 special hollow point (non +P), then I can be pretty sure that bullet will not over-penetrate.

All I'm saying is that we be careful and then take the best shot possible (and pray).

[Marlin 45 carbine]

Inspector - regards post #13 it was round nose cast slugs I sawed the 'X' into. .32acp, .380acp and 9mm Para 124gr.
I haven't got around to trying any Mak 9X18 slugs or .45acp slugs yet.
some of the slugs broke off a 'petal' or 2.
I couldn't tell any accuracy diff shooting off-hand with the 'sawed' slugs.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

Thanks!

I just happen to have 120 Remington round nose lead slugs (bought some loaded ammo) in 38 Special non +P. I wonder if the cuts were on a bit of an angle if that would make a difference.

Thanks again!

[76shuvlinoff]

So you're in a crowded shopping mall and a nutjob starts shooting at you, and let's say at others too.... let's also say you have no retreat and no cover. Not likely in a mall but let's just say so.
I find it very difficult to believe that (as stated above) some are not going to return fire with their life and/or their families lives in imminent danger because of a possibility of a through and through shot.

just askin

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

If you are asking me, then I'll answer.

I'll make that decision if (and I hope there is NEVER an "if") that time ever comes.

Beforehand, I will know my gun and bullets as well as I can as far as ballistics, terminal ballistics and penetration.

Would you pull out some cannon and start shooting with 50 people behind the BG (I consider a 45 automatic to be "a cannon")?
just askin

[76shuvlinoff]

Inspector It wasn't really directed at anyone particular and I probably worded it wrong not having much of a gift for tactful written communication.

As you put it there is no way of know that answer until the situation is immediate, and I agree. That's really the point of my question in the first place.

For what it's worth I personally run only JHP when ccing and have more faith that my "cannon" .45 is less likely to over penetrate at COM than my .40 or my 9, and I'm pretty sure my .357 would too. At any given time I might be carrying any of those calibers. I also feel that in a real world situtation no one can guarantee a COM hit.

In my humble opinion underfire in a high adrenaline crowded situation most are not going to be looking beyond the BG, if they could that's a pure testiment to training and keeping a cool head.

as you say , we all should hope there never is an "if".

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

I will be saying my prayers that any gun I carry will NEVER have to be used.

[Deanimator]

Would you pull out some cannon and start shooting with 50 people behind the BG (I consider a 45 automatic to be "a cannon")?
A .45 automatic is a typical handgun, no more, no less.

If my choice is between getting murdered and shooting somebody "with 50 people behind" with the Norinco M1911 which I frequently carry, I'll shoot my assailant every time. If I stop his attack, I gain some unquantifiable additional length on my lifespan. If I CHOOSE not to stop his attack and I am murdered, what do I win?

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

Quote:
Would you pull out some cannon and start shooting with 50 people behind the BG (I consider a 45 automatic to be "a cannon")?

A .45 automatic is a typical handgun, no more, no less.

If my choice is between getting murdered and shooting somebody "with 50 people behind" with the Norinco M1911 which I frequently carry, I'll shoot my assailant every time. If I stop his attack, I gain some unquantifiable additional length on my lifespan. If I CHOOSE not to stop his attack and I am murdered, what do I win?
__________________
Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists. How about if it means you get to have a jail cell with a 210 pound rapist for 12 years for shooting innocent people?

[76shuvlinoff]

Not to fuel a debate but I see the other side of that coin. 50 people behind the BG vs the daughter behind me.

What might happen down the road is of little consequence compared to what is happening at that moment. I am quite certain of what I would do and hopefully I will never have to test that conviction.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

I guess it means we need to keep on shooting!

Then there would not be this dilemma!

So, let's keep practicing for goodness sake!

[Deanimator]

How about if it means you get to have a jail cell with a 210 pound rapist for 12 years for shooting innocent people?
Unlikely, but even if it happens I'm still alive. I can deal with that rapist one way or another. He's got to sleep some time.

You seem to be arguing for people to allow themselves to be murdered so as to avoid legal trouble. I've got a good lawyer who can keep me out of jail or get me out of jail once I'm there. I don't know ANYBODY who can raise me from the dead.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

You seem to be arguing for people to allow themselves to be murdered so as to avoid legal trouble. I've got a good lawyer who can keep me out of jail or get me out of jail once I'm there. I don't know ANYBODY who can raise me from the dead.


Well, to be quite honest, I never thought of the legal consequences until I joined this site then started reading all the "what ifs" after someone uses their concealed weapon.

Never mind me, I am still sorting all this out in my own mind.
Please do not take any of it personally or that I am attacking anyone, because I'm not.
I'm only asking questions so I can learn.

Sorry if I come on strong. That is sometimes my nature.

[Deanimator]

Sorry if I come on strong. That is sometimes my nature.
You have to make your own decisions. I've been thinking about these things for thirty years or more. I've already made my decisions.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

Roger.

Thanks!:)

[lechiffre]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lechiffre
i don't think any of us are.
Maybe I am missing something but I do not know what you are talking about. Are you not a citizen? Have you served on a jury in the last year? Then what is the issue? I get called once every 2 years or so, if I am on a SD shooting jury, then I will only pay attention to one thing. Given the evidence and circumstance, would I have fired?

All this fluff about what bullets is a waste of time and a redherring.


i just mean that anyone who posts or reads here would likely be disqualified from serving on a jury regarding a firearms related case because we would have opinions or knowledge relating to guns.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

that a jury is supposed to be made up of one's peers.

If it is a trial against a shooter, shouldn't all the jurors be shooters as well?

[nitetrane98]

Inspector,
I would urge you not to suffer from paralysis by analysis. Your exhortations to know your gun and it's capabilities and carry FMJ's in the winter because BG's may have a coat on is all well and good but let's take the mall in January example and dang if the BG hasn't taken his coat off to hide his sawed off shotgun. Now because of all of our experimentation with penetration from our gun we know that there is a possiblity of a T&T shot. Are we to quickly dump our mag full of FMJs and reload with HPs that we have carefully thought to bring for such an occurence or perhaps skillfully manuever ourselves to where we can see that the wall is thick enough behind the BG, oh wait, that might be just 3/8" sheetrock and not 1/2" and I really don't know what it will do on 3/8" and there might be somebody behind the wall......
I hope you get my point. Just draw your gun, acquire the proper site picture as you have trained to do and let him have it. Dance with the one that brung ya'.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

nitetrane98, Thank you for all the insight!;)

Just draw your gun, acquire the proper site picture as you have trained to do and let him have it. Dance with the one that brung ya'.

If anything happens, God is the one who has directed me there to begin with.

God is my judge and lawgiver. He will not allow anything to happen to me that I cannot handle!
1 Corinthians 10:13

I like your phrase "Dance with the one that brung ya'!"

I certainly don't want to become "a statistic" while analyzing the building components!
Shoud this EVER happen, I shall focus solely on the task at hand.

[natural marksman]

Hey guys...

...What about a JHP where the hollow point is filled with lead? Those are what I'd describe a half way between JHP and FMJ when it comes to penetration and expansion.

Any thoughts on that?

And the thing about the changing magazines from a FMJ-loaded mag to a JHP-loaded mag...I got an idea, although in practice it might not work, but just a thought:

What if you keep the chamber loaded with a FMJ, and the rest of the magazine loaded with JHP? In that case, just rack the slide if you don't want to use the FMJ. Alternatively, you could just load up fully with lead-filled hollow points.

Another thing: (not that I've ever shot someone but) to quickly incapacitate a guy, you double tap the trigger while aiming for the thoracic cavity - the principles of the Mozambique drill. One shot may not do the trick, and two rapid shots will shock his spine and he'll be unable to move...for the time being.
A double tap is as much force as is necessary to put a bad guy out of commission in 96% of cases. It'd suck to get into trouble for shooting him twice having said that...

Those are just my thoughts

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

In 1994, after the development in Sweden of another special-purpose handgun round, one never introduced in the United States, Congress again used a construction-based approach to restrict its sale, by prohibiting sales of ammunition manufactured with a "full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile." http://www.nraila.org/issues/factsheets/read.aspx?ID=55

AND:
4) CONSTRUCTION - The bullet must either have a core made ENTIRELY out
of one or more of the listed metals, or be a full jacketed type bullet
with a jacket comprising more that 25% of its weight. Thus SS109/M855
.223 (5.56mm) bullets would not be covered, because their core is only partly
steel, and partly lead. Lead is not a listed metal, and bullets with
cores made partly out of lead are OK. ATF has expressly ruled that
SS109/M855 bullets are not covered.
http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=32967&st=20

Whether the aforementioned applies to the discussion at hand, I am not sure. I personally would not want to change anything that is factory OEM and possibly perform an illegal (felonious) activity in the process.

My view is, when in doubt, DON'T DO IT (i.e., better to be safe than sorry)!

[natural marksman]

Let's just all be careful enough to not get into a gun fight, and be clever enough to stop one without having to use the gun!

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

Let's just all be careful enough to not get into a gun fight, and be clever enough to stop one without having to use the gun!

Amen.

[natural marksman]

Hey, just another thought...

What do you think my chances would be like if I carried a fairly realistic-looking life-sized 92FS toy gun, in my country where guns are difficult to come by? I'd carry a gun only for deterrance, think it'd work if I pulled it out to try stop a fight? :D

Andrew

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

Period.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

Actually, you just MIGHT THEN find out who really has a real gun.

[tblt]

I would use these

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=410045

[natural marksman]

Yeah I guess, but if I can get it out before they do, I have the advantage and I could just hold them up until the cops came :). Embarrasing to the guy who gets held up by a 19-year-old with a toy gun hahaha!

Of course, I'd be bluffing, and it's unwise to gamble with peoples lives...hmmm. I wouldn't be too bold.

The likelyhood of someone in this country carrying a fully loaded pistol (or any gun for that matter) on the streets is very slim. The gun laws here suck. A gun must be carried from one place to another in a safe, locked and firmly secured to your car. Ammo also must be treated the same way, and must be seperate from the gun in it's own safe. No law-abiding Aussie can walk around with a gun on his hip...except cops

With that all in mind, I was thinking my chances were alright, and especially in the dark...

[76shuvlinoff]

I think toting and brandishing a toy guy will likely get you shot by a police officer with a real one.

[natural marksman]

hmmm...maybe, but Aussie cops are a heck of a lot more reluctant to open fire on anyone than American cops. That doesn't mean they won't, it's happened here before. And besides, if a cop came to the scene, whether it was a toy or not, whether the other guy had a gun or not, I'd drop it straight away!

But I think I'll stick with my original theory:

be smart enough not to get into a gunfight, and be clever enough to be able to stop one without using the gun

In any case, I wouldn't have the guts to try it!

[DarkSoldier]

Natural Marksman,

All our good intentions not withstanding, if "being smart enough not to get into a gunfight, and being clever enough to be able to stop one without using the gun" is our primary plan, I suggest that it might be wise for us to develop and practice a really, really good backup plan.

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier

[natural marksman]

Have you seen the latest batman movie? See the scene where the guys all stick up their guns at the Joker, and he flashes the inner layer of his coat to show them his little gallery of grenades? :D

Hmmm...

You think it could work in real life? I think a vest full of FAKE C3 probably would. C3 is able to be detonated from strong impact...and it'd be a good bluff

Not a good idea I think.

I think I'll stay indoors for a while :)

What plan B did you have in mind?

[nitetrane98]

"And the thing about the changing magazines from a FMJ-loaded mag to a JHP-loaded mag...I got an idea, although in practice it might not work, but just a thought:

What if you keep the chamber loaded with a FMJ, and the rest of the magazine loaded with JHP? In that case, just rack the slide if you don't want to use the FMJ. Alternatively, you could just load up fully with lead-filled hollow points."

Back in the real old days if you carried a revolver as an LEO and speed loaders weren't around yet, it wasn't uncommon to see 6 AP rounds in the bullet loops. If you were at a road block you'd routinely load up your AP rounds to "kill the car". Everybody knew that a .357 magnum was capable of smashing through the engine block and exiting through the trunk.
Of course time was of the essence. In a somewhat similar scenario, as a tank commander we were trained to reload the main gun if time permitted if the target was unsuitable for APFSDS (sabot). If they were an immediate threat the fire command included, "fire sabot, load heat (or whatever, HEP, beehive). There was simply no way the loader could remove and reload faster than he could simply reload.

[DarkSoldier]

Natural Marksman,

I will leave the selection of your plan B to you. Mine is already in place and might not work for you.

For me, the bottom line is simple: to possess the knowledge, skills, tools,and abilities to employ deadly force when such action is lawful/appropriate, and the good judgment to be able to make that determination under stress in a rapidly and violently evolving environment. This is not a goal one attains, but rather a lifelong learning process.

I mean no disrespect to you, but toy guns, fake C-4, and bluffing do not have a place in my tool kit. I have buried too many friends to see this as anything less than a serious business.

But these are just my thoughts.

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier

[skeptiq]

I would have to respectfully agree with DarkSoldier. Although you may be "joking" about the bluffs, just the thought of using deadly force should be a well thought out personal decision. The bluff scenarios you suggested would likely result in more harm to you and innocent people around you. You don't only have to think about you in these scenarios, but others as well. Brandishing a fake gun at a BG would likely get you shot in a hurry. In real life situations there are is either action or inaction, either of which can get you killed.

[Vern Humphrey]

I think a vest full of FAKE C3 probably would. C3 is able to be detonated from strong impact...and it'd be a good bluff

C3? There is an explosive code named C4, but no "C3" that I am aware of. Nor will either C4 or grenades detonate from a bullet hit -- I know, because I've shot both. Tanks carry tiles of explosives, but these are for defeating shaped charge warheads, not solid projectiles.

And do you know how long you'd be in jail if some cop arrested you for having grenades or C4?

[IMTHDUKE]

And do you know how long you'd be in jail if some cop arrested you for having grenades or C4?

Let me take a guess....Until the Pope shows up in a business suite?

[Vern Humphrey]

More likely, until he becomes a Hare Krishna.:D

[natural marksman]

I feel pretty stupid :D

No, I'd never try, even using fake toys and stuff. It is a pretty stupid thing to do...

In Australia, it is very unlikely you'd come across a guy carrying a gun (other than cops). In America, I suppose you'd need to be ready with your plan B. For me, I think in most cases, running like hell will get me out of it :D

Thanks for your thoughts :)

[DarkSoldier]

Natural Marksman,

I am sure that you are NOT stupid. If I made you feel that way it was not my intent. Sometimes our life experiences make us come on a little stronger and more passionately than we need too. I meant no personal offense.

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier

[natural marksman]

Darksoldier, you didn't make me feel stupid. You guys just made me realise that it was a stupid thing to try, even though I'd never actually try it.

I'm only 19, and I've never been in a real fist-fight let alone a gun-fight situation. I didn't think the plan B idea through all that much, mostly because I've never had to worry about my personal safety at any time of my life. I've never been in real serious harm, like a bank robbery, or a street fight where I was on my own - although these things can and have happened here in Australia.

I made myself feel stupid, so no worries. Thanks for your thoughts guys

[seeker_two]

A few quick observations....

1. Bluffing is for poker, not for life-and-death self-defense....

2. Mixing ammo in the same magazine is just asking for a malfunction...different ammo in different mags makes more sense....

3. Has anyone done a study of just how much energy is left in a bullet (FMJ, SWC, or JHP) after a through-&-through shot? A little quantifiable research could go a long way in answering the OP....

[IMTHDUKE]

natural marksman

You're a stand up kind of guy......cheers mate.

[natural marksman]

Quote:
You're a stand up kind of guy......



What does that mean? Feeling a bit stupid again...:D

[IMTHDUKE]

That's a compliment....means you have an honest way of expressing yourself.

[Deanimator]

be smart enough not to get into a gunfight, and be clever enough to be able to stop one without using the gun
1. Assuming that you're a sane, sensible and non-criminal person, and you're in a gunfight, it's because somebody chose to forcibly PUT you into a gunfight. At that point, you have a choice of a gunfight or an execution, YOUR OWN.

2. Stop a gunfight without using a gun, HOW? Begging and pleading? I know this is considered eccentric and mean spirited in places here like Chicago, and possibly in Australia, but I simply refuse to trust in the better nature, common sense, or even the sheer sanity of people who point guns at me. Once you point a gun at me, you've crossed a line that can't be uncrossed. You have at that time communicated to me the statement, "You need to shoot me, and you need to do it now!" If that's what you want to say, I'm going to justifiably assume that you're sincere. Of course that will likely be your last testament...

If somebody points a gun at me, the only "Plan B" is an alternate means of bringing lethal force to bear against them in such a way as to eliminate the threat to me which they pose in the quickest possible fashion, with as little unnecessary danger to myself and innocent third parties as possible.

[DarkSoldier]

Deanimator,

Very well said. I agree with you. Once that line is crossed, its time to do something the opposition is going to find very unpleasant.

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier

[Ignition Override]

Jim4065:

I was selected for jury duty about two years ago-my first time.

The low-life was charged with holding a knife near the face of one or two people 'cause he wanted the lady's purse (inside VA Hospital).
The jury seems to have been about half Cauc./half black. Over half of us raised our hands when the judge asked whether we had been crime victims (mine was burglary).

We convicted the guy and being a previous two-time felon he is serving 14 years. After the verdict, the bailiff told us in the back hallway that 45% of the max. sentence must be served.
He also told us that we had not been allowed to hear in the courtroom that the defendent was previously convicted of the same crime: aggravated assault.
The scumbag's misdemeanor list was about a page long.
I enjoyed locking him away in the...eh...Tennessee (?) State 'Doubletree Hotel'.
Pardon the boring details, but it was my visit in a criminal court.

[Orange_Magnum]

A situation may feel dangerous to the person who was there and drew and shot. The shooting in the movie Crash is a good example of that. A person picks up a hitch hiker and after a while an argument breaks out and the hitch hiker angrily starts to pull out something from his pocket. The driver shoots him, just to see that the hitch hiker had tried to pull out a small statuette. It's easy to see that a ruling in a court of law, regarding that case, can go either way. I might have thought that it was a wrongful shooting, being told about the situation by an oily, angry prosecutor. I look forward to sit in on a jury because that means I became an American sitizen down the road. I cling to my guns but I'm neither religious or afraid of loosing my job. I'm unemployed by choice. Obama sucks.

[ConstantineJ9]

Zombies=FMJ

Every day home defence=HP