[Justin]

Ok, predominant wisdom states that in most handgun rounds such as 9mm Luger, .40 S&W, etc. that one should carry/use hollowpoints for defensive purposes.

Said predominant wisdom also states that if you carry a gun chambered in a small round, .32 ACP, .380, etc. that one should carry ball ammo as with these sorts of rounds penetration is preferable to expansion.

So what is one to do with the 9x18 Makarov? Do these rounds go fast enough to get reliable penetration and expansion?

And is this traditional wisdom even worth worrying about?

[Dorrin79]

Here's some gelatin testing on the Makarov that indicates the better JHPs get about 11 inches penetration on average.

Golden Loki Testing (http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/9x18/gel9x18.htm)

given those numbers, I'd probably carry JHP in one. That's about equal to the penetration of the lighter 9x19 JHPs.

:)

[David4516]

I carry my Makarov with Hornady XTPs that I hand-loaded. 9mm Mak/9X18, with the right JHP design, is a dependable expander. As for penatration, it could be better, but compared to other small caliber rounds (.25 ACP, .32 ACP, and .380 ACP) it is pretty darn good. Remember, a 3 inch deep wound is fatal (assuming you hit a vital spot).

When I'm out in the woods I carry FMJs instead. I figure I might run into some kinda four legged critter and extra penatration might be more important than expansion.

[355sigfan]

This should not even be a question as the cailiber comes in obsolete war trophies that are better served being plinkers than as serious guns. The caliber is too light to be considered a service round. And the gun is too big to be a pocket gun.
Pat

[Snowdog]

My Makarov is stoked with 95gr FMJs simply because I haven't any faith in the feed reliability of SilverBear ammunitions (SilverBear put the 9x18 in a completely different ballistic catagory).

I figure 9 rounds of 95gr FMJ should get me to a more effective firearm if needed.

[Omega]

.. a little bit about quality of police instructors. - It sux:fire:
Trophies of what war Makarovs are, may I ask you, Sir.
And another thing - CCW are not only pocket guns, mister Urban rifle instructor.
I feel good that I am not in AK:D

[355sigfan]

Wow, Now I know...
.. a little bit about quality of police instructors. - It sux
Trophies of what war Makarovs are, may I ask you, Sir.
And another thing - CCW are not only pocket guns, mister Urban rifle instructor.
I feel good that I am not in AK

END
Don't you think its silly to insult me simply because I shared negative feelings about a gun you happen to like.

As for my quality of instruction any time you wish to compete in any course of fire via a postal match or in person let me know. I will put my money where my mouth is. I have happened to do fairly well in all the shooting competitions I have entered. Also your right ccw is not only pocket guns. in fact I prefer not to use a pocket gun unless I have too. A belt gun should be of a real caliber not a pocket pistol caliber like the 9x18. A belt gun should be at least a 9x19. I don't take Makarovs seriously. They are chambered in a minor caliber, with terrible sights and trigger. They are preaty much everything you don't want in a carry gun.

I understand you like them. Why don't you share why without resorting to 13 year old childish character attacks. I believe its against the rules here to throw out personal insults and flames.
Pat:neener:

[CZF]

P, what a back-up gun on the belt in .380 or 9mm Mak?
I'd have to agree with your opinion of the Makarov. However,
should you ever shoot a CZ83, you would see it has hi-capacity
and good sights. The triggers on 83s are sooo nice. Nobody that
I know of has ever asked about a trigger job on a '83.


Excellent companion to my big CZ .45 acp or CZ75.

Cocked n Locked with 13 XTPs for me:)

[355sigfan]

I don't think police are that terrifically trained, either.
And I participate in postal matches, too.
My last three were wins...against instructors of practically everything.
Flyer
END
With due respect what would you know of police training? Not being an officer. I have beat plenty of non cops in local matches myself. Some cops are well trained some are not.
Pat

[David4516]

Hold on guys, lets act like grown-ups :p

We don't want this thread to get locked or anything...


I don't remember anyone here claiming that 9mm Makarov/9X18 was a "powerful" round. The question was what kind of ammo is better in this caliber.

Lets remember that, not matter what you think of the Mak, while 9mm Makarov isn't the best caliber, it is far from the worst. It's not like we are talking about .25 ACP here. A well placed Mak round IS VERY DEADLY, I don't think anyone here will argue with that.

"This should not even be a question as the cailiber comes in obsolete war trophies that are better served being plinkers than as serious guns."

Whats with this "obsolete" stuff I keep hearing? What makes the Mak obsolete? You make it sound like a flintlock or something :rolleyes:

[PCRCCW]

Hey CZF, Ive got a CZ83 that Id like a trigger job done on :D :neener:

It happens to have a great trigger and is chambered in Mak. It also holds 13 rnds and is a CCW from time to time.

Im not adding insult to injury here...but guys, most of the LEO's I know dont have the training that a serious CCW permit holder has.
THIS IS ADMITTED BY THE LEO'S THEMSELVES.

As far as being a penetrator vs expander, Ive done back yard ballistic testing with Barnaul, Hornady and Corbon......the first and last I would trust to do the job in a def. situation.

And I wouldnt trust Silver Bear to do anything including fire nor hit the target. It does however jam up even the most reliable guns Ive had.

Shoot well...............

[c_yeager]

What does anyones percieved opinion about the mans choice of firearm have to do with the question? He asked what kind of ammo he should carry. You respond by telling him his gun is crap, real helpful. Then you wonder why you catch flack for it? Like with most things in life you will get out of this board the same thing you put into it.

[Thirties]

"And I wouldnt trust Silver Bear to do anything including fire nor hit the target. It does however jam up even the most reliable guns Ive had."

I had feeding problems with my new 9x18 CZ83 until I sent it back to CZUSA for a feed ramp polish job. Now trhe gun feeds Silver Bears just like they were FMJ. My Bulgarian surplus Maks never did have a problem feeding Silver Bears, by the way.

As for choice of ammo, from all I have read, the 9mm Makarov is comparable with the .380acp. So I'd think along those lines in choosing defensive ammo.

Just my very humble opinion . . . I love my Maks, but a blowback gun is a blowback gun.

[HarryB]

Those people who are new to The High Road or The Firing Line may not realize that many of Pat's posts are provocative. If its not the newest, it's crap. A search of his posts on both forums will lead to some interesting thoughts.

I love my Bulgarian Makarov. It has a great trigger, especially in single action. I know its not a death ray, but then neither is the 1911 I usually carry. The only round I am really confident to stop a person immediately is my 12 gauge--and thats harder to CCW.

Classic from TFL check page 2 (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129955)

Another TFL post (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106233)

Another flaming poll (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102806)

And another (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102747)

do the search, have your keyboard and monitor spray protected.

[Omega]

I definetely agree with you - 9x18 round is not most powerful round there is and I have my Mak as my backup gun and I keep it in the car. I carry Walther p99 and like my Dan Wesson Patriot in .45ACP.
And I was not trying to offend you personally - I just think that teachers, trainers. police instructors,etc. should be, no - must be, more intellegent persons. As an idividual one can have any opinion as an instructor he should go with the facts. If instructor tells his students that Makarovs are war thophies they can take instructor's illiteracy for fact and later make a fools of themselves. Again, please do not take it personally - it is much bigger problem than this polemics. And probably you are better marksman than I am, but if you shoot better than me - it does not make you correct, does it?

[JERRY]

i like my war relic trophy from a war that never happened? and the ammo is so aboundant that it is easier and cheaper to get than the weaker .380 round that many cops carry for what ever reason.

my bulgarian trigger is as good as my walther ppk's thats either saying alot for the mak or really trashing the walther. i never thought the walther trigger lived up to the price of the gun.

bottom line, if its a reliable gun, it can be used for defense. mine works without a problem at all. i keep it loaded with fmj cause i dont trust hp in these lower powered guns 9x18 & >.

for a gun to stash in the basement or bathroom or glove box or garage.... its fine, it works right. what else do you need?

using someone elses poor advise....., dont use the 1911s either they are even older war trophies!!!! and notorious for jamming with even fmj and costs about 5 times what the mak does. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL, (BREATH) LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

[Justin]

This should not even be a question as the cailiber comes in obsolete war trophies that are better served being plinkers than as serious guns. The caliber is too light to be considered a service round. And the gun is too big to be a pocket gun.
Pat Wow, Pat, thanks for answering my question so succinctly!

I guess it never occurred to you that there are people out there who may not be able to afford the latest and greatest. But that's ok. I'll happily give you a pass if you do the following:

Send me an example of what you would consider a 'real' carry gun, along with a Milt Sparks, G-Code, or Blade Tec IWB holster. Include with the pistol 6 magazines, 500 rounds of ball ammo for break-in and testing, and 100 rounds of hollowpoint ammo for testing.

Then I will happily carry whatever you recommend.

:rolleyes:

[Keith]

A belt gun should be of a real caliber not a pocket pistol caliber like the 9x18. A belt gun should be at least a 9x19. I don't take Makarovs seriously.

Oh puhleeze! The differences between a 9mm Luger and a 9mm Mak (at the recieving end) are entirely academic. Either round will penetrate deeply enough and either round has enough velocity to expand a well-designed hollow point.

The 9x19 has a slight ballistic edge, but the Mak has the reliability edge over anything out there on the market. You make your choices and you pay your money. If you have any doubt about the ballistics of your choice, plan on shooting your assailant multiple times. Fuggedaboutit!

Keith

[makarov1]

I think I'll agree with most here in that 9X18 is NOT a superior manstopper, and the sights are horrific. However, the genious of the design lies not in the marginal caliber, nor in the sight picture. Makarov designed a pistol that would be easy to use by Russian conscripts that had limited knowlege of small arms and would often neglect basic maintenance, particularly during prolonged periods of engagement. Of the pistols I've owned over the years I've only had three that have NEVER failed to work. Two of the three were Com Block weapons(Mak and CZ-75), the other was a Ruger P-89. Even a Glock that I owned for about a year was reliable, but not 100%.

As many here will point out, there is no such thing as 100% reliability, and sooner or later, as is the case with any other man-made mechanical device, the Makarov will fail. Hopefully, it won't fail me in my time of need, but I truly believe that Makarov was designed for reliability above all else, and provides more firepower and is easier to control than a five shot .38 snubby, and my Mak will easily slip into a coat pocket. Are there better choices out there? Sure, but the Makarov, even with its shortcomings, is still a good choice for CCW.

[355sigfan]

Kieth most 9x18 loads either can expand or they can penetrate most can't do both. If you can find a 9x18 round that can go 12 inches and expand to .65 caliber then let me know. Its in the same class as the 380 not the 9x19. If there is a 9x18 load that can push a 127 grain bullet at 1250 gain let me know.

As far as war trophies go, yes the maks are not trully war trophies. It was an expression of how I feel about using military surplus guns for ccw in general. The fact is a mak is not the best choice as a ccw or as a home defense gun.

As for Harry sorry if your of the opinion that my post was provocative. Its my opinion and I have right to share it without personally insulting anyone according to fourm rules. I did stick to the rules on this one even after being personally attacked.

Jerry most cops do not carry a 380 at least in this county. Some narcs carry 380's as deep cover guns and some officers carry them off duty. But I can't think of one agency that uses them as duty weapons.

Omega you seem to think because I disagree with you I am not intelligent. I happen to have a BA in Criminal Justice, I happened to have a 3.34 gpa. I don't have the best spelling and grammar skills but I don't think my intelligence is in question. I am glad you like your mak. I simply can't recomend them when there are so many better choices out there.

C Yeager. I simply shared my view. I did not expect childish personal insults that violated the fourm conduct code. If someone asked you which load they should use in there 22 for defense what would you tell them. I hope you would tell them to get a bigger gun as the 22 is not adiquate for defense. I feel the same about the mak.

Lets try to keep it clean. Its obvious I upset some people for that I am sorry. I still have the same view of the Mak however.
Pat

[Zundfolge]

Once upon a time here in America, most "CCW" pieces where .22, .25, .32 ... and police officers carried .38 S&W's

For ages, James Bond carried a PPK in .32

I will conceed that there are more potent rounds then the 9x18 ... but since I don't have the money to buy another .40 in CCW size or a shiny new Kimber RCP in .45 or Glock 29, I'm stuck with my Mak for a while.

As for the original question, I've been one who has pushed the FMJ over JHP line of thinking for small caliber pistols ... maybe its been my lack of faith in the Hornady JHPs I used to carry with (they aren't the hottest load out there for a Mak). The 2 main reasons I prefer FMJs in my Mak are reliablity and penetration (and Im not worried about overpenetration).

However, after going through a case of Barnaul FMJs, as long as the JHPs feed reliably I think I would feel comfortable carrying with them.


But when it all comes down to it, if I can put a FMJ through the BGs heart it will do more to stop him then hitting him in the leg with a JHP so practice ... practice ... practice :evil:

[JERRY]

i did not say cops carried them (380)on duty as a primary. but the fact is many carry them on duty as a BUG to save their bacon and off duty as well. should they have their badges pulled or are they in the know?

if a 380 can serve in a defensive roll for a cop, why not a 9x18? and the mak design is so close to the ppk, it strips the same, blow back design....ect.... this is such a stupid arguement. it is just a personal choice of next to equal guns and amo regarding the two i just mentioned anyway.

carry what you want, the cops who carry a measily 380 had better hope they never need it.

when i was a trooper i carried a 3913 on my ankle and felt that was the bottom line. most of the troopers i knew carried either a 2" .38 or a walther ppk. who was right? the mak fits in the same arena as the 2" .38 and the ppk as far as ballistics and the mak gun is of the same basic design as the ppk. though in mechanics not looks.

[JERRY]

flyer, i was a trooper in ohio. you wouldnt be in the sandusky area would you?

[355sigfan]

i did not say cops carried them (380)on duty as a primary. but the fact is many carry them on duty as a BUG to save their bacon and off duty as well. should they have their badges pulled or are they in the know?
END

I believe I conceeded that cops do in deed carry small 380's and 38 revolvers for off duty and as bugs. I do in fact carry a small centenial as a UC gun as a narc when I can't hid something bigger. When I worked patrol I carried a Glock 33 as a bug.

Personally I feel the mak is too large to be a bug. Its the size of many mid sized 9mm's like the 3913 you said you carried on your ankle.

How did you carry a gun as large as a 3913 on your ankle. Running must have been a real pain with 30 some ounces on one leg and not the other. It would seem you would need bell bottom uniform pants to hide a gun that size in that location. How large are you? Not a flame but I have never seen anyone able to carry and conceal a gun this large in a ankle rig.

The ppk is much smaller than the mak making its weaker caliber acceptable to some. But why carry a larger gun in a weak caliber when you could have the same thing in 9mm,40sw or 357 sig.
Pat

[Zundfolge]

355sigfan, I think you're missing the point here.

I agree that the Makarov is NOT the best CCW pistol out there (even though its my carry gun for the time being) and that something in 9x19 or larger would be a better gun. But the question here wasn't "Is the Makarov the best CCW gun?", the question was "Which is more effective carry ammo in a Mak, JHP or FMJ?".

While you make a good point about the 9x18 being a weak cartridge when compared to 9x19, .40, .45, .357sig, etc. Coming into this thread with the non-answer of "Forget the Mak, carry a real caliber!" wasn't really all that helpful and somewhat impolite, and bound to be taken as "flamebait" or "trolling".

Now, you can send all us Mak guys each a Sig 239 in .357Sig if you'd like ... I'm sure we'd all gladly carry it instead :p

[355sigfan]

Coming into this thread with the non-answer of "Forget the Mak, carry a real caliber!" wasn't really all that helpful and somewhat impolite, and bound to be taken as "flamebait" or "trolling".

Now, you can send all us Mak guys each a Sig 239 in .357Sig if you'd like ... I'm sure we'd all gladly carry it instead
END

This is a valid point. I owe an appology to some here. If I could afford to send out a Sig 239 or a GLock 26 I would. I simply want people to make informed decisions. I will wait to a thread discussing the merits of the 9x18 as a defense round next time before posting.
Pat

[Gordon]

I'd sure hate to get in the way of the Corbon 9x18 load. Too bad it's discontinued(I bought all that was in the area!) . :)

[Tim Wilson]

Pat writes: A belt gun should be of a real caliber not a pocket pistol caliber like the 9x18. A belt gun should be at least a 9x19. I don't take Makarovs seriously. They are chambered in a minor caliber, with terrible sights and trigger. They are preaty much everything you don't want in a carry gun.

The sights leave a little to be desired, I'll give you that.

The trigger on my '61 E. German Mak($175) is the equal to that on my $750 Springfield .45.

It is also as accurate.

My Mak has never, ever jammed - can't say the same about my .45

So, aside from the (barely) borderline caliber, if this is what I don't want in a carry gun, what do I want?

Parting shot: Perhaps you'd be willing to take a hit or two, just to demonstrate how in-effective the 9x18 round is?

Tim W.

[Keith]

Kieth most 9x18 loads either can expand or they can penetrate most can't do both. If you can find a 9x18 round that can go 12 inches and expand to .65 caliber then let me know

Cor-Bon and Fiochi make 9x18 ammo that exceeds 1100 fps - fired from an actual Mak barrel. 1100 fps WILL expand a hollowpoint and certainly give adequate penetration. You could also choose Glazers or Magsafes and certainly make a mess of an assailant with those kinds of "pre-fragmented" loads.

I don't even own a Mak any more, but I find quibbling about such similar calibers a bit silly. When you get into short barreled guns there really isn't much ballistic difference between something like a 9mm Mak and Luger - or .38/.380 for that matter!
The "paper velocity" of a 9x19 +P of 1300 fps doesn't come out that way when fired from the three inch tube of a concealment gun. It's a mistake to confuse manufacturers claims with reality.

People should choose a gun on reliability. If in doubt about the ballistics (and you should be in doubt about the ballistics of ANY handgun) then train to shoot double taps, Mozambique, etc.

The important feature of a gun is that it go bang every time, even when coated with pocket lint, mud, squirrel droppings - whatever. The Mak does that and so it's a "good gun".

Keith

[JERRY]

it was a 3913 ls, weight was 22oz. in a nylon ankle holster with calf strap. easily ran down a few bad guys. held it snuggly in place.

have you ever seen the pant cuffs for ohio troopers? while not bell bottoms, they are more generous than the ankle beaters other depts. issue. im 6'04" 225, but ive seen a few guys smaller than me(osp)carry the glock 9mm on their ankle. not sure of make of gun or holster.

mine was in an uncle mikes nylon ankle rig with velcro fastening strap and a calf support. after years of wearing it, it felt wierd not having it their.

the only time it felt funny with it on, was after 2 weeks of vacation and putting it on for the first few minutes. after that you adjust to it easily.

[355sigfan]

Parting shot: Perhaps you'd be willing to take a hit or two, just to demonstrate how in-effective the 9x18 round is?

END

I have used this line before and while its amusing it does prove nothing. You would not want to take a hit from a 22 short I bet but I don't think you would recomend it as a carry caliber. Typical loads form the GLock 26 are still going 1100 fps with 127 grain ranger loads. So there is a considerable difference from the 9x19 and the 9x18.
Pat

[David4516]

"why carry a larger gun in a weak caliber when you could have the same thing in 9mm,40sw or 357 sig. "

control. I've shot my Dad's Glock 27 a few times and the darn thing wants to jump right out of your hands. I can empty my Mak in the time it takes to fire 2 or 3 shots from the Glock...

If you could carry a .454 or maybe .50 AE that was the size of a Kel-Tec P32, would you? I sure wouldn't...

Even if 1 9mm Mak round won't have a whole lot of stopping power, I bet 8+1 of them (fired rapidly)will...

[355sigfan]

control. I've shot my Dad's Glock 27 a few times and the darn thing wants to jump right out of your hands. I can empty my Mak in the time it takes to fire 2 or 3 shots from the Glock...
END
Control is important and the 27 is peppy. The 26 however kicks about the same as the mak due to the fact the 26 is a locked breach weapon and the mak is a blow back. Try the 9mm.
Pat

[jar]

In my outdated and obsolete Makarov that I so foolishly carry in my pocket, even went to the extreme length of wasting additional money on a custom holster to hold it at the right angle for access, I generally use the Corbons. While they were still available I bought up a bunch and will try to use them judiciously.

When not carrying my outdated and obsolete Makarov I carry my anemic, discontinued relic of a Colt Detective Special with nothing more powerful than Gold Dots or my even wimpier SiG 230 with only 380s. My one hope is that when confronted by a hoard of gangbangers with their home boy equiped GLOCKs I will be able to get away while they are doubled over laughing at my foolishness.

[sarge48]

The mak works!