Florida Property Owner Gun Purchase?


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rsax
November 25, 2008, 08:23 PM
I am not a Florida resident but I own a condo in Broward county. Can I purchase a gun for protection without Florida residency?

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kingpin008
November 25, 2008, 08:32 PM
Yes and no. You can indeed buy a gun in FL, but you will have to have it shipped to a dealer in your home state who will then transfer it to you.

rsax
November 25, 2008, 08:56 PM
Sorry, I didn't explain myself. I don't want to ship it out of Florida. I want to keep it in my condo in Florida.

kingpin008
November 25, 2008, 09:05 PM
I know. What I'm saying, is that as a non-resident, you are allowed to buy all the guns you want in Florida, you just can't take posession of them. To do that, you must have them shipped back to your state of residence and transferred to you there.

Which is why I said yes and no. Yes, you can buy guns in Florida as a non-resident. You just can't take posession of them.

paradox998
November 25, 2008, 09:18 PM
I am a bit unclear about this point. I have read other threads on THR that have a slightly different take on this. Those threads said that if you are a part-time resident of Florida that you can purchase and receive handguns. The question would be whether it is legal to take these to the other state in which you reside the rest of the year. This is particularily relevant to "snowbirds" who spend the winter in Florida and the summers up north. For example if you own a home in Florida, rather than just visit, and spend regular time there you are considered a parttime resident. Can anyone clarify this?

Oro
November 25, 2008, 09:19 PM
KingPin is correct; you can only buy a handgun in the state you reside in. Your options are two-fold:

1) bring a gun with you from your home state when you go down there - legal.
2) Get a FL state ID card or DL addressed at your condo, and use that to purchase a gun at a dealer in FL

Even buying privately (non-dealer) in FL is illegal as you need to be a state resident to buy from a private resident as well as a dealer. This is the federal law, nothing unique to FL. Having a FL state ID at a residence you have there is enough to satisfy the law for purchasing.

To get at Paradox's question more, it is legal to transport (with certain minor restrictions) handguns from any place you are legally allowed to own them in the US, to any other point where you are legally allowed to own them. No problem there. The only hiccup here is that to buy in a state, you need to prove residency in that state. This applies to handgun only, not shotguns or rifles. If the OP wanted a scatter gun for the condo, he can go down to Wal-Mart in Broward and get one without showing a FL state ID. As to the relevant code on transporting, cf.:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000926---A000-.html

kingpin008
November 25, 2008, 09:32 PM
Correct. Residency is the key. If you can prove that you have legitimate residency in FL (DL or other ID with a FL address) you are considered a FL resident, and therefore able to buy guns and take posession of them. If not, you may buy guns, but not take posession of them while in FL.

rsax
November 25, 2008, 09:50 PM
OK, just to clarify further, I must prove residency to purchase and take possesion of a handgun. But, I think Oro states that I may buy a rifle and posses it in Fl. Is that correct? Also, if I was able to transport one of my legally owned handguns from my home state to my condo am I legally able to possess it in florida?

kingpin008
November 25, 2008, 09:56 PM
As to the rifle/shotgun question - I was under the impression that they were handled the same as handguns, but I'm searching for the law as we speak to clarify. I'm not great at searching for such things, so if anyone else knows 100% for sure, feel free to confirm or deny.

And yes, you may legally bring handguns with you to FL from your home state. You can also carry concealed, provided you apply for and recieve a Florida non-resident carry permit. Once again I don't have the link to the application, but if you Google for "Florida Non-Resident Carry Permit" you'll be provided a link to the appropriate documents.

divemedic
November 26, 2008, 12:45 AM
The misinformation in this thread is stunning.

If you own a house in Florida, during the time that you are staying in that house, you are a resident of the Florida. If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a handgun in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not qualify the person to purchase a handgun in that State.

27 CFR 478.11 (http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/aprqtr/pdf/27cfr478.11.pdf) Scrolll down to page 8, left hand column and see the definition of "State of residence."

The following are examples that illustrate this definition:
Example 1. A maintains a home in State X.
A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Under the aforementioned law, the original poster is a resident during the times in which he is staying in his condo.

Lone_Gunman
November 26, 2008, 12:57 AM
Will the state of Florida issue me an official state ID if i own a home in Florida that I reside in part of the year?

If so, who do I contact?

Oro
November 26, 2008, 01:08 AM
The misinformation in this thread is stunning.

The obnoxiousness of this poster is quite stunning.

Nothing you said is incompatible with what was said above. All the OP has to do is go get an ID verifying his address, and no one said he WASN'T a resident of FL while he was there. He just has to have state-issued ID to show it. A FFL is not allowed to take his condo dues statement as proof of residency. The BATF specifically requires a state-issued ID, as I recall and is stated on the Form 4473.

The BATF says quite clearly that someone who owns a home in two states can purchase a firearm in either one. The purchaser needs to show to the FFL seller proof of that residency - getting a state ID like we suggested.

rsax - yes, you can buy a long gun w/o having a FL state ID. This is from the ATF's "FAQ" section, with relevant code referenced:

(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

NavyLCDR
November 26, 2008, 02:11 AM
Even buying privately (non-dealer) in FL is illegal as you need to be a state resident to buy from a private resident as well as a dealer. This is the federal law, nothing unique to FL. Having a FL state ID at a residence you have there is enough to satisfy the law for purchasing.

However, ORO, there are no laws that specify how a person proves residency in private transactions. So, if the OP lived next door to me in Florida, and I knew that was his residence, I could sell him a firearm in a private transaction, regardless of whatever ID he had or did not have. Assuming of course he met all the other requirements regarding felonies and domestic violence convictions, etc.

For the OP, what you really need to do is look at the law regarding Florida driver's licenses and ID cards. First, it might be a requirement that you obtain a Florida driver's license if you reside in the state for longer than a certain period of time. Second, it might be possible to obtain a Florida ID card based upon whatever burden of proof you have to show them to prove residency. However, some states will not issue ID cards to holders of out of state drivers license.

Regarding the FFL purchase, yes, for handguns, you are going to have to show FL issued ID to an FFL in FL. Long guns you might be able to buy in FL with an out-of-state ID depending upon the laws of both Florida and the state you are from.

Yes, you can bring whatever guns are legal for you to possess with you, and, if you do purchase firearms in Florida, you can take them to wherever you are legal to possess them.

everallm
November 26, 2008, 08:00 AM
Before this thread goes really non high road....

Excepting any bizarre individual state laws.

Long arms

Any resident of any state may purchase and take possession of a long arm in any state, not just their "home state". The purchase must take place via an FFL in the originating state, no FTF's.
You may also purchase but not take possession and send to an FFL in your "home" state.

Hand gun

A purchase by a non resident of a handgun out of their "home" state can occur but they cannot take possession. The handgun must be sent to an FFL in the home state before you can take possession.

Residence

Already defined above
Merely renting a property now and again does not make you a resident.

Ownership of a time share or a home without residence (say it's an investment property) does not officially make you a resident but starts to get in a gray area.

Ownership, lease or rent as a regular and extended period of time (usually 90+) days does make you a resident. The 90 days comes from the same rules as a non citizen/permanent resident (Green Card holder).

You do not need a driving license as other state issued ID will suffice, you can go to the DMV and get a non driving license ID card if you can show residence.

I have not mentioned CCW as this was not asked by the OP

divemedic
November 26, 2008, 08:05 AM
Nothing you said is incompatible with what was said above.

Ok, let me itemize the misinformation:

Yes and no. You can indeed buy a gun in FL, but you will have to have it shipped to a dealer in your home state who will then transfer it to you.


Wrong. As I pointed out, the OP is considered to be a resident, under the conditions he described.

I know. What I'm saying, is that as a non-resident, you are allowed to buy all the guns you want in Florida, you just can't take posession of them. To do that, you must have them shipped back to your state of residence and transferred to you there.

Wrong. He is perfectly able to buy any weapon he wishes, during those periods when he is residing in his Florida Condo.

KingPin is correct; you can only buy a handgun in the state you reside in.


again, wrong. This statement is insinuating that the OP is not a resident because he only stays here part of the year. This is untrue.

Even buying privately (non-dealer) in FL is illegal as you need to be a state resident to buy from a private resident as well as a dealer. This is the federal law, nothing unique to FL. Having a FL state ID at a residence you have there is enough to satisfy the law for purchasing.

The law has nothing to do with what identification you possess, and everything to do with residency.


Ownership, lease or rent as a regular and extended period of time (usually 90+) days does make you a resident.

Again, wrong. The example in the actual text of the law states that the person who stays in his second home on the weekends is still considered to be a resident during those periods when he resides in that home. The op said he owned a condo, and wanted to know if he could buy a firearm while here. The answer is yes. I linked to the actual law in question- everyone else is merely stating their (incorrect) opinion. If anyone has an actual law or reference to show where the the law I posted is incorrect, post it. For those of you whop missed it, this is what 27 CFR 478.11 has to say about residency:

Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Why am I being obnoxious? Because we have enough misinformation out there without adding to it.

Art Eatman
November 26, 2008, 12:17 PM
ATF regs are stickied at the top of the forum page.

There is one section which speaks to purchase by people who essentially have two homes, who spend major amounts of time in another state than the one in which they vote.

Oro
November 26, 2008, 05:04 PM
Why am I being obnoxious? Because we have enough misinformation out there without adding to it.

It really seems you are being obnoxious to be obnoxious. I know this isn't very "high road," but you skip around the logic as it suits you with out addressing the core point -

Without a state or US Government issued ID to prove residency, there is no way to legally complete a 4473. Merely owning a piece of property does not make you a resident. I did not say he was NOT a resident, merely that he has to go get an ID addressed in Florida, to which he is clearly entitled. In my first post, all that was suggested was:


2) Get a FL state ID card or DL addressed at your condo, and use that to purchase a gun at a dealer in FL


This certifies residency for firearms purchases and there is no way around that - review the 4473.

All of your other laborious refutations revolve around this point, rather than introducing new ones. Examine the ABTF Form 4473 and you will see what is required to establish residency in a state. Again, merely owning property or paying condo dues doesn't cut it.

razorback2003
November 26, 2008, 10:42 PM
If you are interested in a long gun, then you might be able to get a long gun in a state that you are not a resident of. I can go to say GA and buy a shotgun, even though i'm a TN resident. If i want to buy a handgun in GA, I must ship it to a dealer in TN.

You should be able to keep whatever you want on your own property in FL. Everyone brings guns down there on vacations to hotels and condos.

divemedic
November 26, 2008, 10:52 PM
Without a state or US Government issued ID to prove residency, there is no way to legally complete a 4473.



Except that you also said:


Even buying privately (non-dealer) in FL is illegal as you need to be a state resident to buy from a private resident as well as a dealer. This is the federal law, nothing unique to FL.

Which is exactly WRONG, because in that post you were telling the OP that he could not even buy FTF. The poster was not asking if he could legally complete a 4473, he was asking if he could buy a firearm, even FTF. You said no. You were wrong.

oneounceload
November 26, 2008, 11:12 PM
get a FL ccw, or one from a reciprocal state, and that should alleviate the issue

tpaw
November 26, 2008, 11:42 PM
When a Florida resident buys a handgun, does it get registered or can you just pay for it and walk out the door with your purchase without filling out any paper work at all?

razorback2003
November 27, 2008, 12:54 AM
You fill out paperwork EVERYWHERE when buying a firearm from a dealer. Firearms are not registered in most states...because you can buy one from a dealer and then 6 months later sell it to your cousin without filling out dealer paperwork.

Oro
November 27, 2008, 06:14 AM
Which is exactly WRONG, because in that post you were telling the OP that he could not even buy FTF. The poster was not asking if he could legally complete a 4473, he was asking if he could buy a firearm, even FTF. You said no. You were wrong.

Oh Jesus, you are still trying to pry between the lines. Can you try to be High Road for just a few minutes?

Again, it just seems you are trying to be obnoxious. If he wasn't trying to legally buy a gun, what the hell was he doing? Were you trying to help him subvert a legal FFL purchase? Please try to keep this high road and not assume someone is trying to subvert the law. Please.

divemedic
November 27, 2008, 06:18 AM
Were you trying to help him subvert a legal FFL purchase?

How is complying with the law subversion?

TEDDY
November 27, 2008, 12:43 PM
get a florida CCW,I have friends that have CCWs and they live in Mass and winter in florida.:rolleyes::uhoh:

rsax
November 27, 2008, 01:27 PM
Thanks guys. In any event, I'm now clear on the "resident" issue. I'll get a FL. ID and go from there. May as well go for the CCW. This thread cleared things up for me. Thanks again.

deadin
November 27, 2008, 02:13 PM
TITLE 27 CFR CHAPTER II
PART 478.29, 29a and 30 pretty well covers it.
You may be able to read a loop-hole into it but I will leave it up to you to prove it in court.

divemedic
November 27, 2008, 05:58 PM
There is no loophole, except that the CFR says that if you MAINTAIN a home in a state, you are considered to be a resident of that state during the time that you are staying in the home that you maintain. Since we here in Florida have a large snowbird population, that covers them quite well. (27CFR478.11)

The question would be what does it mean to maintain a home? The CFR gives some guidance on that. It specifically says that a person who owns property (like a hunting cabin) is not maintaining a home. Likewise, renting a timeshare would not be maintaining a home. The CFR does say that a person who has a home that he only stays in on the weekends and the summer would be a resident during the time he is in that vacation home, therefore a person in the situation described by the OP would not be breaking the law by purchasing a handgun or a long gun while he is here, whether that is face to face, or through a dealer, as the regulation clearly considers him to be a resident.

The problem comes when you go to prove your residency to the dealer. The regulation states that the proof of residency must be a government issued identification that has your name, DOB, and address on it, or any combination of government issued documents that state those items of information. In the OP's case, a DL from his other state and a tax notice from the tax assessor's office may be sufficient, but a state ID or CCw would be easiest and present the least hassle. Since you are not required to present such ID in a FTF transaction, you could do that legally without even having an ID, as long as you maintain a home in the state.

However, a state ID or CCw with a Florida address on it does not make you a resident, as you can obtain those without proving that you are a resident. Residency is the key.

NavyLCDR
November 27, 2008, 10:25 PM
For what it's worth, divemedic is 100% correct. In fact it was divemedic about a year ago that set me straight that I couldn't buy a handgun in Wyoming just on my Wyoming drivers license and home of record status.

rsax
January 8, 2009, 03:43 PM
I recently obtained a Florida drivers license that is good for Florida only. I assume this now allows me to apply for the resident Florida CCW? Thanks.

dogrunner
January 8, 2009, 05:46 PM
Divemedic is dead on, plus that ccw for Florida for Mass. residents is dead wrong...........absent the criteria for a dual residency that ccw alone does NOT qualify one to purchase in this State. Additionally, a single ID just might not do it....after all it is the sellers descretion as to consumating a sale, if he has doubts, then you have a problem.

All you gotta do is look at the ATFE website for the answer.

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