[MicroBalrog]

The French have a long history of collaboration with tyrants.
One would think their association with Hitler in WW II would have
prompted some reforms -- but no! Jacques Ch-Iraq's allegiance
to Saddam Hussein and his Ba'athist henchmen continues even
after Saddam's deposition, which is to say, the French continue
to support attacks by Saddam's loyalists against American and
allied liberators in Iraq. We encourage you to avoid purchasing
any consumer goods labeled "Product of France," thus avoiding
any support for those who would provide aid and comfort enemy.

Some companies listed below are American-based with American
employees. To avoid French products without compromising American
family incomes, we ask you to target only consumer goods labeled
"Product of France" -- products actually made on French soil.
And, please don't spend a dime touring French soil (unless it is to
visit these sites -- http://federalist.com/news/priceofliberty.asp )

Air France, Air Liquide, Airbus, Alcatel, Allegra (allergy
medication), Aqualung (including: Spirotechnique, Technisub, US
Divers, and SeaQuest), AXA Advisors Bank of the West (owned by BNP
Paribas), Beneteau (boats), BF Goodrich (owned by Michelin), BIC
(razors, pens and lighters), Biotherm (cosmetics), Black Bush,
Bollinger (champagne), Car & Driver Magazine, Cartier, Chanel,
Cheese labeled "Product of France", Chivas Regal (scotch),
Christian Dior, Christian Lacroix, Club Med, Culligan (owned by
Vivendi), Daniel Cremieux, DKNY, Dom Perignon, Durand Crystal,
Elle Magazine, Essilor Optical Products, Evian bottled water, Fina
(petroleum products) and Fina Oil (billions invested in Iraqi oil
fields), First Hawaiian Bank, George Magazine, Givenchy, Glenlivet
(scotch), Hachette Filipacchi New Media, Hennessy, Hermes,
Jacobs Creek, Jameson (whiskey), Krups, Lancome, Le Creuset,
L'Oreal, Louis Vuitton, Magellan Navigational Equipment, Marie
Claire, Martel Cognac, Maybelline, Méphisto (shoes and clothes),
Michelin (tires and auto parts), Mikasa (crystal and glass), Moet
(champagne), Motel 6, Motown Records, MP3.com, Mumms (champagne),
Nissan (major shareholder -- Renault), Nivea, Normany Butter,
Ondeo/Nalco Water Treatement, Parents Magazine, Perrier Sparkling
Water, Pierre Cardin, Playstation Magazine, ProScan, Publicis Group
(including Saatchi & Saatchi Advertising), RCA (televisions and
electronics -- owned by Thomson Electronics), Red Magazine, Red
Roof Inns (owned by Accor group), Renault, Road & Track Magazine,
Rowenta, Royal Canadian, Salomon (skis), Seagram's Gin, Sierra
Software and Computer Games, Sitram Cookware, Smart & Final,
Sofitel (hotels, owned by Accor), Sparkletts, Spencer Gifts,
Sundance Channel, Taylor Made, Technicolor, T-Fal, UbiSoft,
Uniroyal, Universal Studios, USFilter, Veuve Clicquot Champagne,
Vittel, Vivendi-Seagram, Wild Turkey (bourbon), Wine, champagne
or cheese labeled "Product of France", Woman's Day Magazine,
Yves Saint Laurent, Yves Rocher, Zodiac Inflatable Boats.


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Europe to treat us with justice." --Thomas Jefferson (1797)


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[Augustwest]

:rolleyes:

Buy French. Don't buy French. I really don't care.

But this, "you owe us for WWII, so bend to our will" tripe has gotten pretty old.

Once again, using that logic, we wouldn't have won our independence without the French, so we really oughta be doing what they say.

:rolleyes:

[Cosmoline]

I'm with Augustwest. I've always found it odd that we reserve most of our WWII-related hate for the French, who were victims of German aggression. It's like being mad at the Poles because they didn't hold out long enough.

I've gone on buying French cheese. They're not Americans, and they don't have to help us with our foreign policy. Of course, when they want our help next time they might not get it. And we may try to get them off the Security Council some day. But that's just foreign policy. It's not personal.

[Keith]

I've always found it odd that we reserve most of our WWII-related hate for the French, who were victims of German aggression.

I find it odd that people are so unfamiliar with history they don't know the Vichy government was allied with Germany!

Unlike the Dutch, the Danes, the Poles, etc; the French rolled over and joined forces with the Germans. They turned over their arms intact. They supplied troops in North Africa. They manned anti-aircraft guns that shot down American and British planes. They rounded up Jews and exported them to the camps. They organized labor battalions and sent them to work in German armaments factories. They became a full partner in the German war machine.


Keith

[agricola]

keith,

collaboration was much more widespread than you suggest, citizens of most occupied countries actively supported, or even joined the forces of the Nazis - check out the history of the SS for example.

of course these men were the exception, just as the men who collaborated with the Germans in France were the exception to the rule.

[Skunkabilly]

I don't believe in boycotting a business because of their head of state.

Just because Mr. Clinton was governor of Arkansas isn't going to keep me from buying Wilson Combat.

[Keith]

of course these men were the exception, just as the men who collaborated with the Germans in France were the exception to the rule.

Can you say "Vichy"?

Keith

[agricola]

yep, about as well as Quisling or Degrelle could. Vichy was, like most tyrannies, a minority, Keith.

[Keith]

The Vichy government supplied troops to the Germans - not individuals joining the Waffen SS, but FRENCH troops, in FRENCH uniforms, under FRENCH control - troops who fought and killed American and British troops in North Africa. Vessels that patrolled the sea lanes outside of French ports to protect German sub bases. Units who manned many of the anti-aircraft emplacements throughout Europe.

Did we fight any Dutch, Danish or Belgian troops? Did their governments do any of these things?


Keith

[Selfdfenz]

Augustwest,

http://federalist.com/news/priceofliberty.asp


Do you really think what the French contributed to the AR adds up to this?
Do the math.
No flame intended.
S-

[Drjones]

You people here are also too quick to remember that these same lovely french you are defending desecrated lots of the graves shown in the link above.

Not to mention that one in three french wanted saddam to win.

Yep, nothing wrong there. Keep on buyin' french.

[Bigjake]

I'm all for exhuming ever last grave in their sorry ??? country and bringin those boys home for good. don't even give me numbers on cost, the gov't has never minded pissing away money before, this should be a given.

BUT......

I think it may be just as gratifying to send the 3rd MEU over to claim those cemeterys as american soil. i doubt we'll have much resistance...:evil:

eddited for lousy spelling

[jsalcedo]

Marshall Petain

1856–1951, French army officer, head of state of the Vichy government (see under Vichy). In World War I he halted the Germans at Verdun (1916) and became a military hero. In 1917 he was appointed French commander in chief and in 1918 was made a marshal. He later went to Morocco, where he brought the joint French and Spanish campaign against Abd el-Krim to a successful conclusion (1926). He was briefly (1934) war minister in the cabinet of Gaston Doumergue. In 1939, Pétain was named ambassador to Spain after France had recognized the new regime under Francisco Franco, who had served under Pétain in Morocco.



In World War II, when France was on the brink of collapse, Premier Paul Reynaud recalled (May, 1940) Pétain from Spain and made him vice premier in an effort to bolster French morale with the name of the hero of Verdun. Pétain urged that France sue for an armistice, and on June 16 he succeeded Reynaud as premier. The armistice went into effect on June 25, and more than half of France was occupied by the Germans. On July 10, 1940, a rump parliament suspended the constitution of the Third Republic, and Pétain took office as “chief of state” at Vichy, in unoccupied France. The Vichy government was fascistic and authoritarian. Pétain sought to improve the lot of France and of French prisoners of war by collaborating “honorably” with Germany, but his popularity decreased as he yielded to harsh German demands and obtained little in return. In Apr., 1942, Pierre Laval took power, and thereafter the marshal was chiefly a figurehead. After the Allied invasion of France (June 6, 1944) Pétain was taken, allegedly against his will, to Germany. In 1945 he voluntarily returned to France to face treason charges. His trial (July–Aug., 1945), at which much contradictory evidence was heard, ended with conviction, a sentence of death, degradation, and loss of property. General de Gaulle, then provisional head of the French government, commuted the sentence to life imprisonment in a military fortress; detained at first in the Pyrenees, Pétain was later transferred to the island of Yeu, where he died.

[C.R.Sam]

Lot of things on that list that wouldn't have "Product of France" on the labels. Scotch jumped out at me. :D

Sam

[Ryder]

we wouldn't have won our independence without the French

How so?

My understanding goes like this:

It was Lafayette (A former French General) who loaned Washington the money which is attributed to having made the difference between winning and losing the revolutionary war but that was done against the wishes of the French government. The French government revoked Lafayette's citizenship for that since they had forbidden him to do it. He was a man without a country when we gained our independence.

[gun-fucious]

:D

[foghornl]

MY contribution to The Frogs...


Hork!

Pitoo! ! !

[bedlamite]

I'm using Mandrake Linux. But then I didn't actually pay them for it either.

[Azrael256]

The thought occurs to me that somebody somewhere in France just *might* own a share of stock in General Dynamics, IBM, Microsoft, Coca-Cola, UPS, etc. I'm all for France-bashing, but seriously, this is silly.

Bigjake, you realize that you're talking about something like 2,100 men, right? Why bother with well-trained troops that should be off making the world safe for democracy when we can do just as well with a couple of supply clerks armed with cap guns?

[Bigjake]

Hahaha.... you're right, that just might be a valuable waste of men and resources. perhaps we could arange a field trip for some boyscouts involving archery practice, even then, that may be overkill...

[Atticus]

Boy, that's an easy one for me. I don't use, don't have, any of those brands ....'cept for the Glenlivet...which I sipped the last of last Friday night.

Oh.. and of course the French own stock in US companies....they are smart and tricky, not stupid...and duplicity is what they are famous for...along with good wine ....and snails cooked in butter and garlic ...and surrendering of course.

[Bigjake]

ummmm..... snails.. yum

[Mike Irwin]

My life was largely French-product-free prior to September 11, and it will remain French-product-free long AFTER all of this latest crap dies down.

I've despised France and the French for far longer than all of this recent stuff has been going on.

I'll admit to their good points, and thank them for the past assistance that they have rendered the United States, but that doesn't mean that I'm in any way, shape, or form inclined to translate that into anything of a positive note.

[Mike Irwin]

Ryder,

How critical were the French to the attainment of American independence?

Simply put, without French intervention, there wouldn't be a United States in the form that we recognize today.

French arms, supplies, and money made the continuation of the war possible for as long as it was carried out.

The French also made victory at Yorktown possible.

Without the French fleet keeping Graves' fleet from extracting Cornwallis, without the siege artillery that the French landed that allowed the reduction of British defenses around Yorktown, Washington never would have been able to come even remotely close to pinning Cornwallis on the peninsula.

[Augustwest]

How so?

Don't have time to get too into it now, but the French fleet under De Grasse prevented Cornwallis from being reinforced at Yorktown. That was pretty important.

Do you really think what the French contributed to the AR adds up to this?

In terms of lives given, no. In terms of the possibility that we might all still be speaking English if it weren't for France, yes.

And, btw, I'm no great Francophile. Just think that a sovereign nation doing what it thinks is best ought to be able to do so without having its economy threatened.

And once again, buy French, don't buy French. We're still a nominally free country.

[HankB]

"you owe us for WWII, so bend to our will" tripe has gotten pretty old. Mere neutrality would be nice. Actually, the French attitude is "We owe you for WWII and WWI, so here's a knife in your back."

Rather than oppose us as every turn, France should just take the opportunity to shut up. (OOPS, that's what France said to some Eastern Europeans who supported us.)

[Keith]

Hey, I could even forgive them for shooting off their mouth about Iraq. They're French and I expect no more from them.

But those B#$+#&ds sold Saddam weapons in defiance of the UN ban right up until the war! They ACTIVELY supported Saddam with military sales! Did everyone forget the newly manufactured French anti-aircraft missiles found at the Baghdad airport? The radar systems, the aircraft parts pouring in, in the weeks before the ground war started?

I'll never buy French again. I like a good cognac or brandy now and again, but I've found that California makes some damned fine liquors - and at half the price! If any of you appreciate a good brandy, look for E&J VSOP - it sells for under $20 and will put any $50 French product to shame.

Keith

[Mike Irwin]

"Don't have time to get too into it now, but the French fleet under De Grasse prevented Cornwallis from being reinforced at Yorktown. That was pretty important."

Reinforcement wasn't the idea. Yorktown wasn't supposed to be an armed camp, it was to be a point of disembarkation for the British. Cornwallis was heading back to New York, which is why the Yorktown Peninsula was chosen -- the British fleet could get his troops and supplies out fairly easily from that point.

What most people don't know is that Cornwallis' Army wasn't closely pursued by Washington's army -- it was essentially unmolested as it worked its way up to Yorktown.

It wasn't until several days AFTER the Battle of the Capes that Washington even learned that Cornwallis was in a position where he could be cut off, and it wasn't for several weeks later that the American and French combined ground force could be assembled and moved into a position that could trap Cornwallis via land, and it wasn't until almost a MONTH had passed before the French could land heavy siege artillery that could seriously challenge the British defenses.

[Cosmoline]

Yes, I know about Vichy France. Do you know that most nations taken over by Germany had fascist governments made up of locals? There were many who helped the Germans, and saw the invasion as a chance to take charge. Moreover, there were Polish SS units, and hundreds of thousands of willing troops from Eastern nations that had been beaten by the Germans.

[Augustwest]

"At Yorktown the British could not retreat,
Bottled up by Washington and the French Fleet,
Cornwallis surrendered and finally we had won."

Better start takin' some Ginko or somethin'. How could I forget what Schoolhouse Rock taught me, lo those many years ago. :D

Mike Irwin speaks the truth.

[Keith]

There were many who helped the Germans, and saw the invasion as a chance to take charge. Moreover, there were Polish SS units, and hundreds of thousands of willing troops from Eastern nations

True, but just a few nations actually fielded troops under their own flag to assist the Germans. France was one of them.

Keith

[Cosmoline]

No, they came up with new flags, but they were still fighting for their own nation, not Germany. Romanian, Hungarian and of course Italian troops all fought the Alliance on various fronts under their own flags. So why don't we have venom for Romania, Italy, Hungary, or any other nation allied with Germany?

Indeed, why don't we have the same venom for GERMANS? If we were going to hate a people, you'd think it would be the ones who caused WWII.

Face it, hate of the French is irrational.

[Keith]

So why don't we have venom for Romania, Italy, Hungary, or any other nation allied with Germany?

Because those nations either assisted us in Iraq, or at least didn't sell Iraq weapons to kill Americans?

Did the Romanians, Italians or Hungarians violate the UN agreement and secretly sell weapons to Iraq? I don't recall any such thing...
Yet, France got busted only weeks before the war started, shipping all kinds of prohibited weapons to Iraq.

Have the French arrested any CEO's of companies who got caught selling weapons to Saddam? No? Hmmmm....

Keith

[Mike Irwin]

"So why don't we have venom for Romania, Italy, Hungary, or any other nation allied with Germany?"

Allied with is substantially different from invaded by, surrendered to, and then collaborated openly with.

As I've already stated, I despise the French for different reasons.

If you believe that hating the French is irrational, though, then perhaps hating anti-gunners is also irrational?



"Just think that a sovereign nation doing what it thinks is best ought to be able to do so without having its economy threatened."

Oh please.

Iraq, a sovereign nation, was "doing what it thought best" when it invaded Kuwait in 1990.

German, a sovereign nation, was "doing what it thought best" when it invaded Poland in 1939.

Japan, a sovereign nation, was "doing what it thought best" when it swept across China and into the Pacific in the 1930s and 1940s.

Perhaps neither of those nations should have had their economies threatened?

It's been noted, however, that France's motivations aren't fueled by what it feels to be best.

Chiraq openly stated some months ago that it was France's intention to be the basis for a bloc against American actions and interests. The unstated indication, born out by French actions over the past several decades, is that it intends to do so no matter what the situation is.

[Cosmoline]

Most of western Europe opposed our war with Iraq. Russia had loaned millions to prop up Saddam. So again, why the hatred of the French in particular?

I'm also not clear on the distinction between France and the other nations invaded by Germany. The major difference was that France only got to retain control over half her territory. As punishment, the Germans occupied the main portion outright. Germany did not do this to other nations it invaded. In most cases, these nations were ruled by local fascists who had been waiting to get into power with German help. They were not occupied outright.

In other cases, such as Finland, there was no German occupation at all--just an alliance. So why don't we REALLY hate the Finns, who allowed Nazi troops in with open arms? Why not hate the Austrians for the same reasons?

[Bigjake]

for the record, the germans openly blocked our war agaist saddam as well, along with the french, but at least the knife was in the chest. given frances record i sometimes wonder why it supprises us to be stabbed in the back.:cuss: :cuss: -ing frogs

[Keith]

why don't we REALLY hate the Finns

Were the Finns breaking the UN sanctions and selling weapons to Iraq? The Romanians, the Hungarians...?

France ALLIED itself with Iraq, none of these other nations did.

Keith

[Drjones]

So again, why the hatred of the French in particular?

Oh, I dunno cosmo....I'll go out on a limb and say that maybe, maybe, there were just a FEW people upset by numerous acts like this: (See pic attached below)


Translations:
Dig up your garbage, it is fouling our soil.
Rosbeefs (Brits) go home
Saddam Hussein will win and spill your blood
Death to the Yankees



Links:

http://memorabilia.homestead.com/EtaplesWarCemetery.html

http://robert.freeshell.org/archives/000616.html

[Bigjake]

I hadent seen those pic.... shows i live under a rock.... all the better of a reason for us to kick thier a**es. f:cuss: france

[Mike Irwin]

"Most of western Europe opposed our war with Iraq. Russia had loaned millions to prop up Saddam. So again, why the hatred of the French in particular?"

Most of the rest of Western Europe also doesn't have a 60-year history of ????ting on the United States at every opportunity it can get.

The United States in the 1950s kept the French economy from collapsing and inflation from ruining their struggling-to-be reborn nation. By 1954, the United States was footing nearly 100% of France's intervention in Indochina.

Take a look at news reels from the time -- you can't tell whether you're looking at French troops or Americans. Uniforms, helmets, weapons, transport, artillery, just about everything the French had had Made in the USA and provided free of charge stamped on it.

Then the French get their asses handed to them at Dien Bien Phu, and hand the mess over to the US. We, unfortunately, were stupid enough to take it on.

A few years down the road? Who's screaming and moaning about the US' being such brutal colonial bastards in Vietnam?

The French...

In 1990 the French had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the coalition that pushed Iraq out of Kuwait.

They had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into passing sanctions against Iraq.

Over the subsequent 13 years, the French CONTINUALLY tried to get the sanctions either reduced or eliminated, all on "humanitarian" grounds.

One event doesn't make a situation, Cosmoline. It's the rather continuous history of French intransigence over the past 60 years that makes them despicable.

If you don't understand that -- a single instance vs. continuous BS -- then I can't help you.

Now you ask about Finland, and why we shouldn't be pissed at them...

Please, please, PLEASE don't tell me that you actually have no clue as to what was going on during the Winter War, and why Finland found itself in the unique position of being "allied" (if one can even use that word) with Nazi Germany.

[4v50 Gary]

While it's bad juju to wish ill will on others, let's see what the French have to say when a jet crashes into one of their landmark monuments. Betcha it won't be c'est la vie.

[Ryder]

the French fleet under De Grasse prevented Cornwallis from being reinforced at Yorktown

Thanks guys. I was not aware the French were the reason for that. Must have been 7th grade history. I was out half of that year with a pair of crutches and a tutor.

Ya think living on the History channel I'd have caught this by now? :confused:

[Joe Demko]

Yes, do please boycott the French. It won't do them any measurable harm and it will make you feel ever so patriotic.

You know, why don't we just get right to hating and boycotting every nation that doesn't properly toady up to us?

[Augustwest]

Oh please.

Iraq, a sovereign nation, was "doing what it thought best" when it invaded Kuwait in 1990.

German, a sovereign nation, was "doing what it thought best" when it invaded Poland in 1939.

Japan, a sovereign nation, was "doing what it thought best" when it swept across China and into the Pacific in the 1930s and 1940s.

C'mon Mike. Drawing a parallel between France trying to block an agressive act on our part and countries bent on regional, if not world domination? You're better at this than that.

And, btw, I agree that there's plenty to dislike France for. But this whole "Freedom Fries, let's punish vintners, and cheese and pen makers" deal makes no sense to me.

[Bigjake]

"Freedom Fries, let's punish vintners, and cheese and pen makers" deal makes no sense to me.

its a decent start. hit em in the wallet where they feel it. stop tourism and hear em scream.

Golgo, augustwest. you guys see how they treat us and how they feel about all the free help over the years, and you still stick up for the ungratefull bastards?? thats beyond me.

[DorGunR]

Hell, I don't need a reason............I just don't like France.:barf:

[Joe Demko]

We never did anything for the French just because we're nice. There was always some form of national interest at the heart of it. If you don't grasp that, you don't grasp international politics. Nation-states don't have "friends."

[Mike Irwin]

"C'mon Mike. Drawing a parallel between France trying to block an agressive act on our part and countries bent on regional, if not world domination? You're better at this than that."

The concept is the same, though, August. The French, even faced with the obvious, have largely always responded in a very negative fashion if it's an American situation.

How about this, though...

The French obviously thought they were doing the right thing when they bombed the Rainbow Warrior.

Or, I'm sure that the French thought they were doing the right thing when they were A) supplying banned arms to the Iraqis in violation of UN Sanctions for which they voted, and B) Worked tirelessly to get those sanctions either reduced or eliminated in the face of continuing Iraqi definance of the UN mandates.


"And, btw, I agree that there's plenty to dislike France for. But this whole "Freedom Fries, let's punish vintners, and cheese and pen makers" deal makes no sense to me."

I agree, the Freedom Fries thing is a bit of a stretch. How about a Freedom Poodle?

As for punishing the vintners, cheese and pen makers, how else would you suggest that a grassroots effort be made to show displeasure with a nation's policies?

That's what this largely is. It's not a US government effort to stifle French trade and tourism. It's individual Americans, pissed at the French for their continued intransigence, expressing their anger in the most effective way at their disposal.

If the American people were to collectively write the French government, the response would be "F you you fat lazy Americans!" That's not effective.

But 20 or 30 or 50 million Americans not visiting France, not buying French wine, cheese, pens, water, etc., all that loss of revenue sends a very clear message to the French government through their domestic economy. There's no surer way to make someone (singularly or collectively) sit up and take notice than to put the economic screws to them.

Quite frankly, I don't care one whit about French economics, their grape stompers, cow milkers, or knib splitters.

But the companies that make those products do care, and when they start squealing loudly enough, the French government will take notice.