Lon Horiuchi A Spokesperson For HS Precision ?

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Treo
November 26, 2008, 03:00 AM
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2138289/posts

http://blogostuff.blogspot.com/2008/...nt-by-lon.html

In an apparent attempt at financial suicide it appears the H.S. precision firearms has loaded their new catalog with testimonials and an endorsement by none other than the infamous Lon Horiuchi. Horiuchi, for those who don’t remember is the FBI sniper credited with killing Vicki Weaver while she held her youngest child in her arms at Ruby Ridge. It is also rumored that Horiuchi was the person who fired the first shot at WACO and was responsible for killing several unarmed Branch Davidians who were blinded by smoke and CS gas and trying to surrender.

It appears that this company is about to get Dixie Chicked
You may contact them here

1301 TURBINE DRIVE,
RAPID CITY, SD 57703
(605) 341-3006 TEL
(605) 342-8964 FAX

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Hoplophile
November 26, 2008, 03:04 AM
Dear Lord, this cannot possibly turn out well.

Real tasteful, H-S Precision. That's just classy.

Treo
November 26, 2008, 03:13 AM
Real tasteful, H-S Precision. That's just classy.

Don't tell us tell them

General Geoff
November 26, 2008, 03:32 AM
Nice knowing ya, H.S. Precision..

BullfrogKen
November 26, 2008, 03:56 AM
Holy Moly!

Normally I'm not one to rush to judgment on anything. But Good God!

H-S Precision was one of 5 rifle manufacturers competing in an "off-the-shelf," million dollar plus contract to replace all the aging sniper rifles within the FBI. As the Program Manager and COTR for this project, I was responsible for the testing, evaluation, selection, distribution, transition and all other tasks involved with the selection. After months of testing and evaluation, the rifle that came out on top was the H-S Precision PS-2000 HTR.

<snip>

As for the rifle itself? There is no other "off-the-shelf" rifle that is better than the H-S Precision PS-2000 HTR. [sarcasm] In fact, if I had been using the PS-2000 HTR I would not have shot Vicki Weaver while holding her infant in Idaho. This rifle is that good. [sarcasm off]

How on earth any person in the long range precision shooting community wouldn't see the name Lon Horiuchi and immediately associate it with either murder or incompetence is beyond me.

Wow. Who in that marketing department approved this one? I've heard the PR guys say, "any PR is good PR" before, but I don't think they had this in mind.

Kind of like having OJ Simpson endorsing your golf gloves or steak knives, isn't it?

kingpin008
November 26, 2008, 03:59 AM
That's.....

Wow.

Fat Pat210
November 26, 2008, 04:15 AM
I thought he hasn't been seen or heard from in years?

kingpin008
November 26, 2008, 04:18 AM
Hello -

It has recently come to my attention via a post on popular firearms messageboard The High Road dot Com that your company has hired ex-FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi as your spokesman.

Forgive me for being so blunt, but - for your company's sake, I hope that this is some sort of sick joke. Lon Horiuchi is a murderer, and I refuse to do business with companies that employ murderers to sell their products.

Your marketing staff may not be familiar with Ruby Ridge and Waco, but let me assure you, your customer base is. Any man who would shoot an unarmed woman holding a child in the back should not be allowed to continue living his life outside the four walls of a prison cell, let alone shilling for a firearms manufacturer.

In closing, I would like to let you know that I will be posting this information on multiple firearms message boards, both local and national, as well as informing my personal friends and family and members of my local shooting club. Until you fire the murderer Lon Horiuchi and issue an apology for the callous and thoughtless mistake you've made, H-S Precision will not get a dime of my money.

Please feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you may have -

(my name here)
Columbia, Maryland

I'm very interested to see if they reply, and if they do, what they have to say. Will definitely update when/if they write back.

November 26, 2008, 06:08 AM
How on earth any person in the long range precision shooting community wouldn't see the name Lon Horiuchi and immediately associate it with either murder or incompetence is beyond me.

depends on what community in one the school of thought he followed the rules of engagement his bosses laid out. they tried to cover up and got letters of reprimand then promoted.

LAK
November 26, 2008, 06:18 AM
I wonder exactly what those at HS Precision think is Mr Horiuchi's claim to star appeal in the shooting world out of all the accomplished rifleman around.

-----------------------

http://gtr5.com
http://ssunitedstates.org

nicholst55
November 26, 2008, 06:23 AM

Write and tell them what you think about them having a MURDERER endorsing their products. Regardless of what you think of Randy Weaver, Horiuchi murdered Vicky Weaver, plain and simple. Then Butch Reno and Bill Clinton declined to indict the thug.

I did, and I told them that all of my new rifles will have McMillan stocks and Krieger or Lilja barrels on them.

I guess you gotta suck up in order to get the FBI gravy... er, contract. Perhaps this is another case of a company that figures since they've got the big government contract now, they don't have to worry about us little people.

Now I guess I need to contact Remington and tell them that as long as they use HS Precision stocks on (some of) their rifles, I am boycotting them and will urge everyone I know to do the same.

Deanimator
November 26, 2008, 07:36 AM
!!!Danger Parody Warning!!!
In related news, David "Son of Sam" Berkowitz has signed a lucrative endorsement deal with Charter Arms, while DC gunman John Muhammed will represent Bushmaster. In a move some have compared to car company commercials featuring dead performers, gunmakers Mauser and Remington are set to introduce commercials for their products featuring deceased SS officer Aamon "Schindler's List" Goethe and the deceased assassin of civil rights leader Medgar Evers, Byron de la Beckwith respectively. Through the miracle of CGI, the two will be seen shooting concentration camp inmates and Medgar Evers with the companys' current products. Gun makers Anschutz and Weatherby are said to be in a bidding war for the likeness of James Earl Ray, assassin of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Deanimator
November 26, 2008, 07:41 AM
depends on what community in one the school of thought he followed the rules of engagement his bosses laid out. they tried to cover up and got letters of reprimand then promoted.
I believe I knew him in Korea. If so, I can easily believe that he INTENTIONALLY shot a woman holding a baby and LIKED it.

offthepaper
November 26, 2008, 09:06 AM
sent my letter. :barf::barf::barf:

1 old 0311
November 26, 2008, 09:08 AM
In a related story O.J. Simpson was hired to represent Cold Steel.:what:

Treo
November 26, 2008, 09:25 AM
Just got off the phone w/ the company they refused to confirm or deny, then I was placed on hold and then hung up on

Set Phasers on "Zumbo"

Ultima-Ratio
November 26, 2008, 09:46 AM
http://www.awrm.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=003547

Dravur
November 26, 2008, 09:58 AM
Sent my letter.

Set Phasors to "Zumbo"

hankdatank1362
November 26, 2008, 10:07 AM
I don't believe it. No one can possibly that stupid.

Wouldn't it just really suck if no one in marketing knew who he was, and then no one in the company decided to proofread the advertisement before it went to press.

Wow. Well, America got to read it, and our proofreading is expensive.

Noxx
November 26, 2008, 10:38 AM
And here I was hoping to never see that name in the news again, outside of the obits anyway. Unbelievable.

Deanimator
November 26, 2008, 10:53 AM
My email just sent to H-S Precision:

Dear Sirs:

I'm sure I'm not the first or even in the first 5,000 to say this to you, but what in the world were you thinking? It simply boggles the mind to even imagine that you'd even consider an endorsement from Lon Horiuchi. In terms of sheer bad taste and suicidal marketing, this move by you could only be rivaled by a David Berkowitz endorsement of Charter Arms revolvers or a "nostalgia" campaign for Mauser rifles featuring the likeness of SS officer Aamon "Schindler's List" Goethe.

I'm rarely at a loss for words, but I find myself in that position now. I am an enthusiastic advocate of Savage firearms. According to their website, they purchase your products. I will shortly be emailing them as well, strongly encouraging them to cease purchases of your rifle stocks, in favor of others who do not hold up killers of women holding infants as people to be admired.

Just Jim
November 26, 2008, 10:58 AM
Kinda like they don't give a crap because they are selling all their stuff to the government. They must see a hell of a market now that BHO has hired all the old Clintonistas to run the government.

jj

goalie
November 26, 2008, 11:00 AM
Holy crap, that is the new definition of stupid.

1 old 0311
November 26, 2008, 11:06 AM
Gun owners have the memory of a crack baby. Anyone remember the S&W flap? How about Bill Ruger being THE AUTHOR OF THE LAST AWB?

Sadly gun owners really don't care about the big picture, just themselves. Look at our last election.:(:(:(

Just Jim
November 26, 2008, 11:20 AM
Bet BHO has Hourchi working for him in no time.

jj

Flyboy
November 26, 2008, 11:25 AM
I couldn't navigate Remington's phone tree, so I called their Public Relations line. I was transferred to the Director of Marketing who said he'd look into it and get in touch with HS Precision (among others) to find out what's going on.

I also referred him to this thread so that he can see what's going on in the Internet community.

Followup: a scan of the cover with Mr. Horiuchi's endorsement can be found at http://www.awrm.org/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=003547;p=0

jerkface11
November 26, 2008, 11:25 AM
depends on what community in one the school of thought he followed the rules of engagement his bosses laid out.

Um we have to take his word for that since they won't release the rules of engagement. Even if he was following them though he's still a murderer.

RPCVYemen
November 26, 2008, 11:31 AM
How on earth any person in the long range precision shooting community wouldn't see the name Lon Horiuchi and immediately associate it with either murder or incompetence is beyond me.

If HS Precision is not selling to the Ruby Ridge tinfoil parade, do they care?

For example, if they are selling to the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, an endorsement from Lon Horiuchi might be a big plus.

Mike

Coronach
November 26, 2008, 11:38 AM
Well, we're about to see how good of an idea it is.

Personally, I think it incredibly stupid to make one segment of the market mad at me while trying to woo another with the very personification of lethal government incompetence, but hey, that's just me.

Mike

SuperNaut
November 26, 2008, 11:40 AM

RPCVY, since you have obviously fallen in love with the term, please try to use the correct term. Perhaps then (with luck), the correct application of the term will follow.

Just Jim
November 26, 2008, 11:45 AM
If HS Precision is not selling to the Ruby Ridge tinfoil parade, do they care?

Sounds like the BHO civilian army is runing a recruiting drive and Lon will fit right in.

jj

Deanimator
November 26, 2008, 11:46 AM
For example, if they are selling to the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, an endorsement from Lon Horiuchi might be a big plus.
And if they were selling to the Aryan Brotherhood and other violent White supremacist groups (like the one which organized the "Good Old Boy's Roundup" for years), an endorsement from Tom Metzger might be a big plus.

Flyboy
November 26, 2008, 11:54 AM
Update 2: CZ no longer uses HS Products (they discontinued a couple of years ago due to inability to deliver enough product in a timely manner), but their catalog is out of date. They will be updating their catalog and web site.

Justin
November 26, 2008, 12:01 PM
And if they were selling to the Aryan Brotherhood and other violent White supremacist groups (like the one which organized the "Good Old Boy's Roundup" for years), an endorsement from Tom Metzger might be a big plus.

RPCVYemen
November 26, 2008, 12:42 PM

I accept that bit of eldering. I think of the cadre of tinfoil theorists like the Shriners who ride the minibikes in the 4th of July parade, but maybe that's the wrong image.

HS Precision being worried that and endorsement by Len Horiuchi will offend the Tinfoil Brigade is like McDonald's being worried that a Big Mac commercial will offend PETA. :)

Mike

Flyboy
November 26, 2008, 12:43 PM
Update 3:
I just spoke to Brian in Marketing at Savage. He didn't know who Lon Horiuchi is, or who Randy and Vicki Weaver are, but he had at least heard of Ruby Ridge. He did know who Jim Zumbo is. I pointed out the issue with Lon Horiuchi and HS Precision, and he said he'd look into it.

RPCVYemen
November 26, 2008, 12:46 PM
the Aryan Brotherhood and other violent White supremacist groups

You're confused. Randy Weaver was the one selling to the Aryan Brotherhood other violent White supremacist groups. :)

HS Precision is selling to people who think that shooting US Marshals is a bad thing.

Mike

yeti
November 26, 2008, 12:49 PM
HS Precision being worried that and endorsement by Len Horiuchi will offend the Tinfoil Brigade is like McDonald's being worried that a Big Mac commercial will offend PETA.

Good try, but backwards.
It is like Micky D's having their products endorsed by PETA, and not being concerned that it could upset their beef eating patrons.

Just Jim
November 26, 2008, 12:51 PM
And if they were selling to the Aryan Brotherhood and other violent White supremacist groups (like the one which organized the "Good Old Boy's Roundup" for years), an endorsement from Tom Metzger might be a big plus.

What you have pointed out sir is exactly what they have done to the gun community. They have used for endoresment a man that is the equal or worse than Metzger. Thanks for making the point.

jj

General Geoff
November 26, 2008, 12:51 PM
Please don't attempt to marginalize Horiuchi's murderous act by calling his critics "tinfoil paraders." It's not only demeaning to his critics, but also to the sanctity of human life.

Coronach
November 26, 2008, 12:52 PM
HS Precision is selling to people who think that shooting US Marshals is a bad thing.And, by logical extension, shooting women and infants with their precision weapons is a good thing.

This is an inane idea.

Mike

rbernie
November 26, 2008, 12:53 PM
HS Precision is selling to people who think that shooting US Marshals is a bad thing.They would also like to sell their product to civilians who think that Horiuchi shooting thru a window to kill an unarmed woman holding a baby was less than sporting.

Either Horiuchi was unaware that his target was a non-combatant (in which case he should not have taken the shot by any reasonable standard) or he was aware and simply did not care (in which case he is a depraved and sick human being).

Either way - he's not the ideal spokesperson for a company that does not intend to solely pursue government contracts.

Just Jim
November 26, 2008, 12:54 PM
You're confused. Randy Weaver was the one selling to the Aryan Brotherhood other violent White supremacist groups.

HS Precision is selling to people who think that shooting US Marshals is a bad thing.

So how did the courts treat Weaver, did he go to jail or did they let him go with alot of money for his trouble????

jim

yeti
November 26, 2008, 12:56 PM
So Vicky Weaver, who never sold a gun the the Aryans, never shot a Marshall, and was holding a baby, not a gun, was a legitimate target?

RPCVYemen
November 26, 2008, 12:57 PM
And, by logical extension, shooting women and infants with their precision weapons is a good thing.

So everyone who believes that shooting Federal Marshals is a bad thing therefore believes that shooting women and infants is a good thing?

Be kind enough to sketch out that argument for those of us who can't follow it.

I would have thought that it was possible to believe that shooting Federal Marshals is a bad thing and believe that shooting women and infants was also a bad thing. I guess that's logically impossible.

Mike

RPCVYemen
November 26, 2008, 12:59 PM
So Vicky Weaver, who never sold a gun the the Aryans, never shot a Marshall, and was holding a baby, not a gun, was a legitimate target?

How do you derive that?

Mike

General Geoff
November 26, 2008, 12:59 PM
Shooting at a federal Marshal is a bad thing.

Shooting and killing an unarmed mother with a baby in her arms is downright monstrous. Horiuchi is thus, by extension, the worst kind of monster.

RPCVYemen
November 26, 2008, 01:00 PM
Please don't attempt to marginalize Horiuchi's murderous act by calling his critics "tinfoil paraders."

Only the Tinfoil Brigade thinks it was murder.

Mike

Coronach
November 26, 2008, 01:00 PM
...do you KNOW what you're talking about? Do you know what Lon Horiuchi did?

Justin
November 26, 2008, 01:04 PM
I was unaware that Vicki Weaver actually shot any US Marshalls.

Certainly she was guilty of holding cretinously stupid beliefs, and having bad taste in marriage partners, but I don't see how that justifies her being shot to death.

Just Jim
November 26, 2008, 01:06 PM
Only the Tinfoil Brigade thinks it was murder.

Mike

Are you a member of law enforcement??

jj

Justin
November 26, 2008, 01:07 PM
No way, dude, he was totally in the Peace Corps.

Just Jim
November 26, 2008, 01:09 PM
notta

Flyboy
November 26, 2008, 01:09 PM
Only the Tinfoil Brigade thinks it was murder.
Actually, he was charged with murder. Do you know the outcome of that trial?

It was dismissed on grounds of sovereign immunity: the government wouldn't allow its agent to be tried. Not acquitted, dismissed by government intervention.

Like OJ, he got away with murder, but he doesn't even have an acquittal to stand on.

Just Jim
November 26, 2008, 01:16 PM
Odd the way government works, shoot a drug dealer in the butt and get 15 years. Kill a women holding her child and and walk around free giving rifle endorsements. Only in America.

jj

Just Jim
November 26, 2008, 01:21 PM
It was dismissed on grounds of sovereign immunity: the government wouldn't allow its agent to be tried. Not acquitted, dismissed by government intervention.

The Clintons knew if Horuichi was prosecuted that they couldn't get their troops to work for them. How could they kill all those at Waco if they knew they were going to get charged for murder??

jj

yeti
November 26, 2008, 01:24 PM
The Clintons knew if Horuichi was prosecuted that they couldn't get their troops to work for them. How could they kill all those at Waco if they knew they were going to get charged for murder??

They were doing it for the children!

Apple a Day
November 26, 2008, 01:26 PM
Odd the way government works, shoot a drug dealer in the butt and get 15 years. Kill a women holding her child and and walk around free giving rifle endorsements. Only in America.

Just Jim,
I think it has more to do with the administration. Maybe if that Border Patrol agent had shot the Mexican drug dealer from 300 yards away while he was holding a baby then Bush would have pardoned him.
Stupid move by HS Precision.

ACORN
November 26, 2008, 01:27 PM
I remember a quote: "Better to remain silent and thought a fool, than speak and remove all doubt"

RPCVYemen
November 26, 2008, 01:33 PM
but I don't see how that justifies her being shot to death.

There is no justification for her being shot to death.

It was a tragic and accidental - and could easily have been prevented by her husband. The fact that is was a tragedy is underscored by the settlement awarded to the million dollar settlement to each of her daughters.

If Len Horiuchi had intentionally shot an innocent unarmed woman and child, he would have been convicted of murder. He has not been convicted of murder.

Mike

RPCVYemen
November 26, 2008, 01:36 PM
The Clintons knew if Horuichi was prosecuted that they couldn't get their troops to work for them.

And we know that Bush and Ashcroft held President Clinton and Janet Reno in such awe that they couldn't take any action, either.

Makes perfect sense to me. Ashcroft is always raving about Reno.

Mike

Just Jim
November 26, 2008, 01:39 PM
It was dismissed on grounds of sovereign immunity: the government wouldn't allow its agent to be tried. Not acquitted, dismissed by government intervention.

If Len Horiuchi had intentionally shot an innocent unarmed woman and child, he would have been convicted of murder. He has not been convicted of murder.

Mike

Guess it's all in what you believe, Weaver stood trial and Horiuchi didn't. However Horuichi went on to kill at Waco what has Weaver done???. Hope it clears things up for you

RPCVYemen
November 26, 2008, 01:46 PM
Actually, he was charged with murder. Do you know the outcome of that trial?

Actually, he was not charged with murder - he was charged with manslaughter by Denise Woodbury. Their claim was not that Horiuchi intended to kill Vicki Weaver, but that he was grossly negligent in taking the shot.

There was no trial - the prosecutor who succeeded Woodbury decided to drop the charges because they state couldn't prove negligence.

Other than that, your post was entirely factual and correct.

Was asking about the outcome of a trial that never occurred a trick question?

Mike

November 26, 2008, 01:51 PM
Gun owners have the memory of a crack baby. Anyone remember the S&W flap? How about Bill Ruger being THE AUTHOR OF THE LAST AWB?

Sadly gun owners really don't care about the big picture, just themselves. Look at our last election.

You got that straight, jack! Still, we must attempt to Zumbo them to the extent possible. If most of their business if from the gov't, then they won't care a LOT - but we just may hurt them a LITTLE, and that's better than NONE.

Deanimator
November 26, 2008, 01:54 PM
If Len Horiuchi had intentionally shot an innocent unarmed woman and child, he would have been convicted of murder. He has not been convicted of murder.
Really?

How many Chicago cops were convicted of the murders of Mark Clark and Fred Hampton, shot to death, asleep in their beds? Or do murderers only get convicted if they work for the Federal government? Help me out here.

One of two things is possible:

1. Lon Horiuchi is a murderer who intentionally shot a woman holding an infant. The facts tend toward this, given his post-shooting behavior.

2. Lon Horiuchi is an incompetent buffoon who shouldn't be allowed to heft a spork, much less a firearm. This had some traction with the professionals who post on Sniper Country. Some of them think he's in inept nitwit.

Having actually met him, I tend toward 1. He struck me as the kind of guy who would reinact Babi Yar if someone above him in his chain of command told him to. Of course you may feel that we don't have enough sociopaths in Federal service.

Noxx
November 26, 2008, 01:58 PM
If Len Horiuchi had intentionally shot an innocent unarmed woman and child, he would have been convicted of murder. [sic]

Now there's a man with way too much faith in authority.

Deanimator
November 26, 2008, 02:03 PM
Now there's a man with way too much faith in authority.

Of course you could argue that authority IS his faith.

He reminds me of the retired Canadian cop who used to post in the Fullbore mailing list. He thought nobody had a need for a "sniper rifle", although he couldn't explain the difference between one and his 1,000 target rifle. He went as far as to say that anyone had a duty to go into a racial concentration camp if that's what the government ordered. Then one day he got into a peeing contest with the Canadian firearms registration authorities. They started unlawfully sharing his emails to them with a couple of Canadian cops online who gave him a hard time. When it was HIS ox being gored he cried big tears. I just quoted Pastor Niemoller's sermon back to him, "First they came for the Jews..." He didn't have a clue.

Strange that he has nothing to say about the BATF lying to the Federal Marshalls about Weaver being a "bank robber", which was of course the proximate cause of ALL of the deaths. NOBODY would have died without the Federal Klan's attempt to entrap Weaver.

Randy Weaver is a stupid, hateful little man. But in this country, even stupid, hateful little men have rights. When they don't NOBODY has anything but easily revocable privileges. Some people like it that way. Of course there's quite a bit of opinion INSIDE the BATF(E) that's really in sync with Randy Weaver's previously stated beliefs. It's why there were "n***** hunting licenses" in people's cubicles in their offices in the Murrah Federal Building. It's why they put on the WHITES ONLY "Good Old Boy's Roundup" with its "n***** checkpoint" to make sure that Black law enforcement officers were turned away, as they were. It's why the BATF had to pay its Black employees a $4.6million settlement for racial discrimination, harassment and intimidation. Apparently he doesn't mind White supremacist activity. He just minds White supremacist activity which competes with that organized within Federal law enforcement. Flyboy November 26, 2008, 02:28 PM Actually, he was not charged with murder - he was charged with manslaughter by Denise Woodbury. Their claim was not that Horiuchi intended to kill Vicki Weaver, but that he was grossly negligent in taking the shot. There was no trial - the prosecutor who succeeded Woodbury decided to drop the charges because they state couldn't prove negligence. Other than that, your post was entirely factual and correct. Was asking about the outcome of a trial that never occurred a trick question? You are correct in that I erred in stating that he was charged with murder; it was, in fact, involuntary manslaughter. Mea culpa. That said, the prosecutor didn't drop the charges initially; Judge Edward Lodge did under the doctrine of sovereign immunity. The Ninth Circuit court ultimately reversed the dismissal, but the prosecutor declined to press the issue due to the time that had elapsed. Yes, I suppose you could say that the prosecutor dropped the charges, but it would overlook the fact that he only did so as a result of the delay incurred as a result of the sovereign immunity claim that was the basis for the first dismissal. I think leaving that part out is intellectually dishonest, but you can do as you will. While there may not be a conviction on him, it's pretty clear that he's not an angel, either. In any event, this thread isn't about his criminal record (or lack thereof). This thread is about his endorsement of a product, and the fact that his questionable reputation in the industry makes his endorsement potentially embarrassing. 1911 guy November 26, 2008, 03:29 PM As soon as I'm logged off here I'm going to send off an e-mail. Maybe a phone call, too. Does anuone know off the top who uses HS Precision stuff for OEM and who (if anyone) sells their product re-branded? A vocal and persistent boycott is indeed in order. RPCVYemen, I would suggest that you acquaint yourself with the facts of the incident in question before running your mouth. You obviously have no grasp of what happened at Ruby Ridge or how those events unfolded. I don't claim to be an expert in them, either, but apparently have a more firm grasp on the events than you do. Lon Horiuchi (not "Len", as you typed) is thought to have fired the opening shots at R.R., knowingly killed Mrs. Weaver and went on to commit the same class of butchery at Waco. Sure, the people involved had some distasteful beliefs, but that's life. Vociferous defense of a sociopath isn't exactly firm ground to fight from. Flyboy November 26, 2008, 03:49 PM Remington and Savage still do; CZ says in their catalog and on their website that they do, but their marketing director told me today that they haven't in some time, and will be correcting their literature. X-Rap November 26, 2008, 03:55 PM GM has fired Tiger Woods and placed Ted Kennedy as their spokesman. There would seem to be no shortage of fine examples of shooters that H&S Precision could pick from the ongoing conflict to endorse their product. Of course they would run the risk of pissing off the radical islamist instead of the American gun owning public. I nominate Gunny Jack Coughlin Coronach November 26, 2008, 03:59 PM They were doing it for the children!Actually, they did it to the children in this instance, and at least one other one. Mike Float Pilot November 26, 2008, 04:04 PM There is a reason why the founding fathers did not introduce an all powerfull Federal law enforcement agency, but rather preferred Local, county, city and State agencies which were more accountable to the public for whom they were supposed to serve. Here is a photo of the back page of the offending catalog. http://www.flickr.com/photos/ryjones/3059382773/ RPCVYemen November 26, 2008, 04:04 PM You are correct in that I erred in stating that he was charged with murder; it was, in fact, involuntary manslaughter. Mea culpa. There's a big difference - everyone here is claiming intent to kill! Intent is not some unimportant detail! The difference between murder and involuntary manslaughter is monumental in the law: Involuntary manslaughter, sometimes called criminally negligent homicide in the United States, gross negligence manslaughter in England and Wales or culpable homicide in Scotland, occurs where there's no intention to kill or cause serious injury, but death is due to recklessness or criminal negligence. If the state had any evidence of intent, he would at the very least have been charged with voluntary manslaughter. But notice that the Tinfoil Brigade asserts right and left with a loud voice that Lon (sorry about the earlier miss-spelling) intended to kill Vicki, that the murdered her. But when it was time to man up and show a little evidence in a actual court of law, the prosecutor - with the help of a special prosecutor - couldn't even mount a charge that included intent! That darn pesky evidence stuff wrecks so many great conspiracy theories. :eek: Skipping unimportant minute little details like the difference between murder and involuntary manslaughter is one of the hallmarks of the Tinfoil Brigade. Mike Coronach November 26, 2008, 04:05 PM If Len Horiuchi had intentionally shot an innocent unarmed woman and child, he would have been convicted of murder. He has not been convicted of murder.Patently untrue. There are plenty of people out there who have committed murder who have escaped successful prosecution. Add in federal governmental intervention, and the fact that Mr. Horiuchi was not brought to justice means exactly nothing. I tend to agree that prosecuting Mr. Horiuchi for murder would be a non-starter for practical reasons...he can fall back on the idea that what he did was an error, not a deliberate act. A trial for manslaughter would be another issue, but it was not to be. The simple fact remains that HS Precision chosing Mr. Horiuchi as a spokesman is a blisteringly stupid idea. He is, at best, not competent to use their product. At worst, he is an unconvicted murderer. Neither one is what could be termed a marketing coup. Mike RPCVYemen November 26, 2008, 04:07 PM the facts of the incident Do you mean actual facts, or the wacko stuff that's spin by the Tinfoil Brigade? I read the tinfoil stuff and the reports. Mike RPCVYemen November 26, 2008, 04:08 PM A trial for manslaughter would be another issue, but it was not to be. He was in fact charged with involuntary manslaughter - no intent. Those are the charges that were dropped. Mike SuperNaut November 26, 2008, 04:21 PM miss-spelling Classic! X-Rap November 26, 2008, 04:26 PM The fact is simple he fired on and the result ended with the death and injury of American citizens. As far as that goes there can be little doubt. Given that glaring fact plus the belief of many that he should have been convicted of doing so and jialed is it not so hard for you RPCVYemen to at least agree with the monumental stupidity of choosing him as a spokesman for a gun company and touting his abilitys as a sniper? Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow November 26, 2008, 04:30 PM "H-S Precision rifles: When you care enough about slaughtering your unarmed victims, to murder them with the very best!" Others? According to Mr. Yemen, all people who commit crimes are convicted of crimes. No one, but no one, gets away with a crime - at least not murder. Don't anyone tell him about the cold case files stacked up in many police departments across the country, as that would ruin the theory. It's not that we're the Tinfoil Brigade, it's that YOU are the "Stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, go 'nah-nah-nah-nah-nah-nah' over and over" Brigade. The majority & mainstream of the public thinks that the FBI and Co. did wrong at Ruby Ridge (among those familiar with it). It would seem that you are in the tiniest of minorities that think the gov't did just A-OK in that deal. SuperNaut November 26, 2008, 04:36 PM "Mom tested, government approved!" pbearperry November 26, 2008, 04:41 PM H-S Precision rifles new slogan,"Our rifles are guaranteed to shoot one minute of Baby right out of the box." Flyboy November 26, 2008, 05:07 PM Those are the charges that were dropped. ...on grounds of sovereign immunity ("you can't hold us accountable, we're the government"), not lack of evidence. But I'm sure the court was part of the Tinfoil Brigade, right? RPCVYemen November 26, 2008, 05:13 PM According to Mr. Yemen, all people who commit crimes are convicted of crimes. You are correct - I overstated my case. I was wrong. Here is a more careful statement: If there was evidence that Lon Horiuchi had in fact intentionally shot an innocent unarmed woman and child, he would have at least been charged with of murder or at the very least voluntary manslaughter. The fact that he was not charged with any crime of intent - and that even the involuntary manslaughter was dropped because the state felt that it could not prove its case - leads me to believe that there is no plausible evidence of intent. Mike taliv November 26, 2008, 05:15 PM Others? you're just asking to get the thread locked RPCVYemen November 26, 2008, 05:15 PM ...on grounds of sovereign immunity ("you can't hold us accountable, we're the government"), not lack of evidence. Read on, Sparky. That was overturned, and the prosecutor had the opportunity to prosecute, and declined. Oops! Mike RPCVYemen November 26, 2008, 05:18 PM RPCVYemen to at least agree with the monumental stupidity of choosing him as a spokesman for a gun company and touting his abilitys as a sniper? I would agree that the choice was unusual. My guess is the law enforcement sniper community feels that Mr. Horiuchi was given a raw deal by the press and the Tinfoil Brigade - and that's who they are selling to. Mike Deanimator November 26, 2008, 05:31 PM If there was evidence that Lon Horiuchi had in fact intentionally shot an innocent unarmed woman and child, he would have at least been charged with of murder or at the very least voluntary manslaughter. And so, with what has Detective Alvin Weems of the Chicago PD been charged in connection with his killing of (and subsequent lies about) Michael Pleasance? There isn't the slightest doubt that he did it. There's video of him shooting Pleasance. He's been found liable in civil court to some portion of$12.5million.

Why hasn't he been fired, much less prosecuted? Maybe what you say isn't just untrue, it's ludicrously untrue.

Oh yeah, what about Mark Clark and Fred Hampton? Or are those made up names?

Deanimator
November 26, 2008, 05:32 PM
My guess is the law enforcement sniper community feels that Mr. Horiuchi was given a raw deal by the press and the Tinfoil Brigade - and that's who they are selling to.
The consensus on Sniper Country seems to be that he's either a murderer or a pathetic hack masquerading as a sniper.

RPCVYemen
November 26, 2008, 05:42 PM
The consensus on Sniper Country seems to be that he's either a murderer or a pathetic hack masquerading as a sniper.

That's as good as a court of law in my book. I'm sure he had a vigorous defense there.

Mike

Deanimator
November 26, 2008, 06:03 PM
Yemen said this:

My guess is the law enforcement sniper community feels that Mr. Horiuchi was given a raw deal by the press and the Tinfoil Brigade - and that's who they are selling to.

Then I said this:

The consensus on Sniper Country seems to be that he's either a murderer or a pathetic hack masquerading as a sniper.

Then Yemen said this:

That's as good as a court of law in my book. I'm sure he had a vigorous defense there.

So then what you're saying is that "the law enforcement sniper community" is "as good as a court of law", but NOT those members of it who run and contribute to Sniper Country?

Have you noticed how frequently your own words disserve you? Defending a murderous sociopath (whom I have met) puts you in no better light than it puts H-S Precision.

There are people who will not only countenance but applaud any misdeed by government employees, no matter how horrific.

By the way, when was Randy Weaver convicted of, tried for, indicted for, charged with, or arrested for bank robbery? The BATF SAID he was a bank robber. They wouldn't lie to the Federal Marshalls, WOULD they? I'll bet none of them had the stones to look Marshall Degan's family in the eye and explain THAT one...

rbernie
November 26, 2008, 06:19 PM
Have you noticed how frequently your own words disserve you? That's what frequently happens when somebody prizes the role of 'resident contrarian' moreso than any other.

RPCVYemen
November 26, 2008, 06:29 PM
..., but NOT those members of it who run and contribute to Sniper Country?

You may be right. I may have pre-judged Sniper Country. In your opinion, when the denziens of Sniper Country formed their opinions, did Lon Horiuchi in fact receive a vigorous defense on that forum?

By the way, when was Randy Weaver convicted of, tried for, indicted for, charged with, or arrested for bank robbery?

Which according to you, is evidence of nothing.

To me, it seems very likely that there was not sufficient evidence to bring charges of bank robbery against Randy Weaver, or that the evidence would not stand up in court.

Sort of exactly like ... it seems very likely that there was not sufficient evidence to bring charges of murder or voluntary manslaughter against Lon Horiuchi, or that the evidence would not stand up in court. :)

Mike

RPCVYemen
November 26, 2008, 06:32 PM
That's what frequently happens when somebody prizes the role of 'resident contrarian' moreso than any other.

I plead guilty - well maybe not the "moreso" part. :)

I am extremely skeptical of herd thinking - whether on the left or on the right.

Mike

ridata
November 26, 2008, 06:40 PM
To me, it seems very likely that there was not sufficient evidence to bring charges of bank robbery against Randy Weaver, or that the evidence would not stand up in court.

Why are you talking about evidence? There wasn't even a formal charge against him. Merely some people saying he was, or was connected to an organization that did.
There was a formal charge against Lon.

Deanimator
November 26, 2008, 06:58 PM
To me, it seems very likely that there was not sufficient evidence to bring charges of bank robbery against Randy Weaver, or that the evidence would not stand up in court.
Then why did they state it AS A FACT to the Federal Marshalls Service? What's that called... oh yeah, A LIE, a lie that got several people KILLED.

But then the BATF has a LONG history of destructive lies. They have the unique status as the only [to my knowledge] Federal law enforcement agency to have ever produced a FORMAL training video on how to LIE UNDER OATH. But I'm SURE that if you can justify shooting a woman holding a baby, justifying perjury in felony trials should be a breeze.

Deanimator
November 26, 2008, 07:00 PM
In your opinion, when the denziens of Sniper Country formed their opinions, did Lon Horiuchi in fact receive a vigorous defense on that forum?
At least a vigorous as the defense which Mumia Abu Jamal gets on any law enforcement discussion forum...

Maelstrom
November 26, 2008, 07:03 PM
I have a wild idea! Since everyone "KNOWS" the same information I do (i.e. internet evidence) shouldn't we all simply man-up and admit that NO ONE HERE KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED?

If you were actually there, I'd love to hear what you have to say. If you're accusing a man of murder because an unknown internet source told you to, well........

Maelstrom
November 26, 2008, 07:07 PM
At least a vigorous as the defense which Mumia Abu Jamal gets on any law enforcement discussion forum...

Speaking of murderers.

I'm Thinking...
November 26, 2008, 07:17 PM
Lon Horiuchi :cuss: + Set Phasers on "Zumbo" = FIRESTORM

Lon Horiuchi :barf: + "I was acting according to my orders" = Einsatzgruppen

4v50 Gary
November 26, 2008, 07:19 PM
The ad is designed to appeal to the law enforcement market. That is, for LEOs who know and like L.H. I'm sure HS wasn't thinking of the civilian marksman.

Deanimator
November 26, 2008, 07:24 PM
Lon Horiuchi + "I was acting according to my orders" = Einsatzgruppen
Nah, I'm thinking more like the Kempeitai. Waco was Lon's minor attempt to emulate the Japanese Imperial Army's "Three Alls Policy" (kill all, loot all, burn all)

Deanimator
November 26, 2008, 07:26 PM
The ad is designed to appeal to the law enforcement market. That is, for LEOs who know and like L.H. I'm sure HS wasn't thinking of the civilian marksman.
Anybody who LIKES Lon Horiuchi should be considered too dangerously unstable to BE in law enforcement.

They'd better be thinking of the civilian marksman now, because a lot of us will be doing everything possible within the law to harm their business.

ridata
November 26, 2008, 07:26 PM
I'm sure HS wasn't thinking of the civilian marksman.

Nope, but they sure are now. :D

Deanimator
November 26, 2008, 07:28 PM
I have a wild idea! Since everyone "KNOWS" the same information I do (i.e. internet evidence) shouldn't we all simply man-up and admit that NO ONE HERE KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED?
What happened at Ruby Ridge is no more of a mystery than what happened at Malmedy. The only mystery is why people would dirty themselves in both cases defending the perpetrators.

TEDDY
November 26, 2008, 08:15 PM
I note the organizations our resident troll has.very interesting.:rolleyes::uhoh:

SuperNaut
November 26, 2008, 08:25 PM
Member: AHSA, NRA, ALCU, HRC, National Peace Corps Association

I'm assuming that the "ALCU" in your sig is a different more 2a friendly version of the ACLU.

hankdatank1362
November 26, 2008, 08:28 PM
Teddy, I wouldn't call someone with three times as many posts as yourself a "troll."

Mike (RCVPYemen) makes an interesting point. If even the prosecutor didn't think there was enough to make a case on, then there probably wasn't.

So Lon isn't a homicidal bastard (maybe). He was just a terribly inept decision maker and marksman, in a profession where you are prided on your judgement and accuracy.

I'm still suprised he wasn't charged with something. The "Whoops! I killed someone by accident!" defense wouldn't work for any of us, so it shouldn't work for him.

In any sense, HS Precision exercised terrible judgement in deciding to make Lon their endorser.

X-Rap
November 26, 2008, 09:11 PM
Its disgusting to me to find out after all these years this POS has been promoted and given a plum job in the agency rather than been forced into retirement and obscurity or better prison. Only in the gov. does somebody accidently kill someone they have the crosshairs on, move on and help cause another shootout/stand off, then after a s**t storm of public trials and hearings not only walk away but keep his job and from the sounds of it be promoted to the upper levels of his department.
And they wonder why we don't really trust them

benEzra
November 26, 2008, 09:50 PM
The ad is designed to appeal to the law enforcement market. That is, for LEOs who know and like L.H. I'm sure HS wasn't thinking of the civilian marksman.
Just a pet peeve, but in the United States, law enforcement officers are civilians too.

mp510
November 26, 2008, 09:53 PM
Guys- read that catalog page more carfefully. They did not hire that creep as a spokesman. They published a statement from a satisfied customer. The letter was written not for Horiuchi's personal perspective but by him as the then head of the FBI sniper program.

It's analagous to using a politico's endorsement. While the individual might suck, the title next to his name is really nice.

X-Rap
November 26, 2008, 10:17 PM
mp you are right, the letter is an endorsement. Do you think Frigidare would print an endorsement from Jeffrey Dahmer complimenting them on the quality of their refrigerators? Maybe Hitler sending a letter to Kohler praising their shower heads.
What HS did was stupid and I'll bet when the smoke clears we will discover that the 22 yr old marketing wiz that printed the letter knew only of his credentials as the FBI's top guy in the sniper program and nothing of his murderous past.
My guess is that some in the business see it only as that and care little of the history or quirks of those they serve and supply.

Treo
November 26, 2008, 10:21 PM
Defending a murderous sociopath (whom I have met)

Whom you said you think you might have met

Everything else I agree with

Deanimator
November 26, 2008, 10:22 PM
Guys- read that catalog page more carfefully. They did not hire that creep as a spokesman. They published a statement from a satisfied customer. The letter was written not for Horiuchi's personal perspective but by him as the then head of the FBI sniper program.
Kind of like Rheinhardt Heydrich's endorsement of IG Farben's product as a satisfied customer... that product being Zyklon-B... But hey, "Deputy Reichsprotektor of Bohemia and Moravia" is a REALLY snazzy title...

Deanimator
November 26, 2008, 10:23 PM
Whom you said you think you might have met
At this point it's looking pretty certain. How many Infantry captain Horiuchis were there in the Army in '81?

Treo
November 26, 2008, 10:25 PM
Probably not many. When did he graduate the point?

X-Rap
November 26, 2008, 10:28 PM
So this guy has exibited this type of behavior since 81 and still he gets to the top of his field in the Gov. Never fire only promote seems to be the rule of the day.

BHP FAN
November 26, 2008, 10:31 PM
This has GOT to be a bad dream...right?

mordechaianiliewicz
November 26, 2008, 11:53 PM
Now, a boycott of HS Precision is definetely in order. But, in addition, I would say that they probably don't care that much about the civilian market.

As for Horiuchi.... the reason that they didn't (in Idaho) pursue this was due to chain of evidence reasons. This was an FBI job, which means the FBI had all the evidence. In a battle between Idaho vs. Lon Horiuchi it's really Idaho vs. The FBI. The FBI can hold out on evidence, Horiuchi can lie under oath, the matter can be appealed to a friendly court.... you get the picture.

Instead of go through all that, Idaho dropped it.

What is certain is that Lon Horiuchi should not have been an FBI sniper. Regardless of whether he was incompetent, or sociopathic, neither should be synonomous with Federal law enforcement.

I am not discounting your story of meeting Mr. Horiuchi, Deanimator, but what is it Horiuchi, said, did, etc. that gave you the impression that he would have been equally at home with a Japanese Kill and Rape Squad in Nanking pre-WWII as in rural Idaho killing white seperatists in cold blood?

Just Jim
November 26, 2008, 11:58 PM
So this guy has exibited this type of behavior since 81 and still he gets to the top of his field in the Gov. Never fire only promote seems to be the rule of the day.

Horuchi is a product of government socialism, much like what you will see for the next four years. The more someone is willing to stick it to the people the higher they will get promoted.

jj

suspicious package
November 27, 2008, 03:07 AM
Just a pet peeve, but in the United States, law enforcement officers are civilians too.Maybe technically, but have you seen the way they are trained now? :what:

LAK
November 27, 2008, 04:18 AM
You're confused. Randy Weaver was the one selling to the Aryan Brotherhood other violent White supremacist groups.
Randy Weaver was "selling" to the 'ATF - who entrapped him by insisting he cut a barrel below legal limit. All this in order to persuade him to infiltrate a group and become an informant. He refused, and that brought him up on the charges, then the raid.

I have met Randy Weaver in person. For the record, he is no nut, and he has what could be accurately described as a racialist view. I.E., he simply does not want to mix with colored. A passive personal choice.

-------------------------------------

http://gtr5.com
http://ssunitedstates.org

beatcop
November 27, 2008, 04:21 AM
Just to hit a few points:

-you can't say "...just following orders" in defense of a bad LEO shooting. Each shot has to have real justification (ability, opportunity, jeopardy), just like any post about civilian self defense. LEO's are not military snipers, who can fire on combatants not engaged in hostile acts (you can shoot at an enemy soldier taking a leak).

suspicious package- "...but have you seen the way they are trained now?"
LEO training is regulated in State statutes. It is also reviewed by civilians to ensure compliance with all sorts of directives, i.e. test scores, content, annual or periodic re-certification, instructor credentials, etc. I don't know what the FEDS have in place for training, but I'm guessing it is pretty standard.

I'm amazed LH still has a job...at a minimum.

LAK- Entrapment is when you use undue pressure to make a person commit an act that they would not ordinarily do, like pretending to have a terminal illness (writhing in pain) and asking someone to get some controlled meds to ease your pain.

If the GOV said, "Chop these barrels or we'll rat you out to some dangerous friends of yours and tell them you're an informant" that would be a no-go. If I ask you to chop a barrel, with no strings, and afterwards try to have you "work off" your violation that is legal.

suspicious package
November 27, 2008, 04:31 AM
LEO training is regulated in State statutes. It is also reviewed by civilians to ensure compliance with all sorts of directives, i.e. test scores, content, annual or periodic re-certification, instructor credentials, etc.Either you didn't understand my point or you didn't understand my point. The training is now militarized and centers around escalating to a physical confrontation followed by overwhelming force. Police training now subtly but heavily emphasizes a shutdown of conscience and a focus on following orders in the quest to force compliance from the citizen. I have seen it with my own two eyes. I have seen the result with my own two eyes. Most of us here have read dozens of current news stories with our own two eyes that confirm this.

The "test scores" you mention have no bearing on my point that the current training is not just bad, it is dangerous. You unwittingly admitted my point by referencing "all sorts of directives."

You totally misstated my point. You seem to think I am referring to incompetence when I am NOT. I am referring to a systematic problem with police training that has turned them from peace officers into militarized robots who are frequently control freaks with a statistically high rate of domestic violence.

beatcop
November 27, 2008, 04:46 AM
The "all sorts of directives" are the standards of training...task, conditions, standards that are to achieved.

I think that a lot of organizations have taken a hard look at some situations like North Hollywood, Columbine, etc and have decided to meet a rifle with a rifle, so to speak, but I can't say that any of my training has even remotely appeared to endorse a shutdown of conscience.

You did hit on a key point though, "compliance" is the goal when force is applied. The force stops when compliance is achieved. That's the textbook answer...

Yes, there have been some big screw-ups. Those ruin public trust and confidence at a rate that can't be mended.

LAK
November 27, 2008, 04:59 AM
Beatcop,

I know what entrapment is; and the agent who insisted Mr Weaver cut the barrel pressured him to do so - even after protests to do so by Mr Weaver.

The buyer was a federal agent, part of an organized plot to force Weaver to infiltrate the group(s) and be an informant.

That's entrapment by any sound definition.

beatcop
November 27, 2008, 05:08 AM
Sorry, wasn't trying to slight you, or even re-try the case. The whole thing was a mess.

It's hard to believe H-S would be unaware of LH's rep. Definitely a bad business move.

ericyp
November 27, 2008, 05:53 AM
I did not know about this before a quick bit of research, but all parties involved seemed pretty scummy. From what I've read, it sounds like the shooting of Vicki was accidental?

Jamie B
November 27, 2008, 07:23 AM
I usually do not use the words murderer, boycott, and disgust in the same paragraph!

Jamie

Deanimator
November 27, 2008, 08:13 AM
I am not discounting your story of meeting Mr. Horiuchi, Deanimator, but what is it Horiuchi, said, did, etc. that gave you the impression that he would have been equally at home with a Japanese Kill and Rape Squad in Nanking pre-WWII as in rural Idaho killing white seperatists in cold blood?
More than twenty years later, the sheer reptilian coldness of the man stands out.

Deanimator
November 27, 2008, 08:16 AM
Now, a boycott of HS Precision is definetely in order. But, in addition, I would say that they probably don't care that much about the civilian market.
They sell a lot to other companies like Savage. When I emailed H-S, I told them that I was going to contact Savage and ask them to stop buying products from H-S. I'll bet that when their OEM sales start dropping off they'll care.

And the beauty of this is that you can hurt H-S without hurting your favorite gunmakers. Just tell them you won't buy any of their products which use H-S components. Savage for one buys from a variety of sources. Talking to Savage and just not buying their guns with H-S stocks doesn't hurt Savage. They'll stop buying from H-S and give somebody else the business, maybe even somebody new to the business.

RX-178
November 27, 2008, 08:17 AM
Sounds like someone who really 'got into' to what his job meant in the military. And never left that mentality behind when he started in law enforcement.

Deanimator
November 27, 2008, 08:22 AM
I have met Randy Weaver in person. For the record, he is no nut, and he has what could be accurately described as a racialist view. I.E., he simply does not want to mix with colored. A passive personal choice.
As I said to somebody at lunch while discussing this yesterday, "Randy Weaver was a crazy racist White man who went off to the middle of nowhere and didn't bother any Black people... now what's the downside again...?"

I don't like Randy Weaver or his beliefs. At no time am I aware of him imposing those beliefs on anyone but himself and his family. That puts him lightyears ahead of Sarah Brady.

R.W.Dale
November 27, 2008, 08:38 AM
OH well sucks to be them, HS prcision is the "extreme shock" of the precision bolt action world anyhow. You only buy hs stuff because you don't know that better products can be had for less  from other manufacturers.

Bubba613
November 27, 2008, 09:34 AM
I don't think it will make the slightest difference to someone considering buying one of their rifles.
Let's say Krieghoff started printing a catalogue or flyer with an endorsement by Pik Botha. How many people considering a Krieghoff would suddenly say "Oh no, I'm not buying that shotgun because they have that man's name on their advertising"? I would guess not many. And no fair using Google to find out who Pik Botha is.

R.W.Dale
November 27, 2008, 09:42 AM
other endorsements brought to you by this marketing dpt

Oj Simpson for Buck knives

Ted Kennedy on the new line of Oldsmobiles

Osama Bin Ladin encouraging you to fly on a Boeing

Gavrilo Princip for Browning handguns

and

Blakenzy
November 27, 2008, 10:59 AM
The Clintons knew if Horuichi was prosecuted that they couldn't get their troops to work for them.

It's not just the Clintons, it's all Big Government.

It's a way of making your "muscle" more effective. Promise them impunity and they can carry out their "duty" without restraint. Without fear of repercussion that the collateral damage they cause would normally bring, there is little to hold them from reaching their objective at all costs. The feds apply it to all their employees, from the FBI to the US Army; American military are exempt from prosecution by International Criminal Courts while the rest of the world is not.

Jamie B
November 27, 2008, 11:19 AM
Ted Kennedy on the new line of Oldsmobiles

Snort! There goes another keyboard!

It really should be the old VW Bug, as I remember the commercial where they actually float!

Jamie

Just Jim
November 27, 2008, 11:48 AM
It's not just the Clintons, it's all Big Government.

It's a way of making your "muscle" more effective. Promise them impunity and they can carry out their "duty" without restraint. Without fear of repercussion that the collateral damage they cause would normally bring, there is little to hold them from reaching their objective at all costs. The feds apply it to all their employees, from the FBI to the US Army; American military are exempt from prosecution by International Criminal Courts while the rest of the world is not.
__________________

The same reason no one has gone to jail for crashing the economy.

Horuchi will be back to work for BHO, you can count on it. BHO has hired alot of the Clintonistas back.

jj

RPCVYemen
November 27, 2008, 03:09 PM
I'm assuming that the "ALCU" in your sig is a different more 2a friendly version of the ACLU.

Good eyes, thanks. I am slightly dyslexic.

Mike

RPCVYemen
November 27, 2008, 03:16 PM
I don't like Randy Weaver or his beliefs. At no time am I aware of him imposing those beliefs on anyone but himself and his family.

I happen to agree with you on this one. The killing a Federal Marshal thing is at least a little bothersome to me. In a nation of laws, you have to distinguish between fighting a law and fighting the men who enforce the laws.

Mike

jerkface11
November 27, 2008, 03:25 PM
Yeah Randy Weaver was the bad guy. The feds entrapped him on a weapons charge. Then tried to blackmail him into spying on some Aryan group. Then sent in their Jack Booted Thugs.Then snuck onto his property and opened fire without announcing themselves.

Yup he was a real hardened criminal. Why'd they shoot his wife, friend, and son again? Oh yeah they were after him for failing to appear in court. They always send federal swat teams out for that don't they?

rbernie
November 27, 2008, 03:28 PM
The killing a Federal Marshal thing is at least a little bothersome to me. In a nation of laws, you have to distinguish between fighting a law and fighting the men who enforce the laws.
According to the Weavers, the Marshalls did not announce themselves as Federal law enforcement agents before or during the first day of the seige. The jury that sat on his trial for the murder of William Degan agreed with Weaver's claim of lawful self-defense; they acquitted him of all charges related to the seige itself. While I do not condone the killing of law enforcement officers, any citizen in this country should possess a basic right to self-defense if the assailants could reasonably be perceived as engaging in unlawful assault.

Oh, and let's not gloss over the fact that it is a matter of public record that the Justice Department review that was conducted after the Ruby Ridge incident specifically identified Lon Horiuchi as irresponsible for his actions in shooting Vicki Weaver. It's not as if the .gov covered up the truth as much as everyone on the .gov side of things chose to hide behind the veil of sovereign immunity.

Any way you cut this, it comes up smelling badly. Lon is not the poster child that HS Precision should want as a representative or spokesperson or endorser.

BHP FAN
November 27, 2008, 03:28 PM
Quote:
The killing a Federal Marshal thing is at least a little bothersome to me. In a nation of laws, you have to distinguish between fighting a law and fighting the men who enforce the laws.

unless they're shooting at you.

Ragnar Danneskjold
November 27, 2008, 03:40 PM
Quote:
The killing a Federal Marshal thing is at least a little bothersome to me. In a nation of laws, you have to distinguish between fighting a law and fighting the men who enforce the laws.

unless they're shooting at you.

So you'd be OK with a gang banger shooting at a beat cop because the cop tried to arrest him for drug possession?

rbernie
November 27, 2008, 03:47 PM
So you'd be OK with a gang banger shooting at a beat cop because the cop tried to arrest him for drug possession?Even gang bangers have a fundamental right to self defense. If the cop didn't identify himself/herself as a police officer and the gangbanger thought that he/she was being robbed, then yes.

We can't just remove people's rights because we don't like the cut of their jib.

RPCVYemen
November 27, 2008, 03:55 PM
So you'd be OK with a gang banger shooting at a beat cop because the cop tried to arrest him for drug possession?

That is precisely the point - in a nation of laws, if a corrupt officer tries to arrest someone improperly, the person being arrested get his/her day in court. If the officer is in fact acting illegally, then the office can be arrested and tried.

Fighting charges in court is the appropriate course of action. If the person being arrested decides to make it a battle of force - then law enforcement must win the action. Every time someone shoots a federal law enforcement office, should the government just walk away, if the shooter claims that the shooting was justified?

Had Randy permitted him to be arrested, his wife would be alive today, the Federal Marshal would be alive, and Randy would have had his day in court - where he might have prevailed.

Mike

Ragnar Danneskjold
November 27, 2008, 03:58 PM
That is precisely the point - in a nation of laws, if a corrupt officer tries to arrest someone improperly, the person being arrested get his/her day in court. If the officer is in fact acting illegally, then the office can be arrested and tried.

Fighting charges in court is the appropriate course of action. If the person being arrested decides to make it a battle of force - then law enforcement must win the action. Every time someone shoots a federal law enforcement office, should the government just walk away, if the shooter claims that the shooting was justified?

Had Randy permitted him to be arrested, his wife would be alive today, the Federal Marshal would be alive, and Randy would have had his day in court - where he might have prevailed.

Mike

That pretty much covers the whole incident to me. Court is where you settle your disputes, even disputes with LEOs. If you start shooting at the scene, all bets are off and if you or someone you love gets shot, then it's your fault. Randy weaver killed his wife.

*and before someone says "they shot his dog first", you need to sit back and do a big reality check. If you think the death of an animal is worth shooting human over, you need to either be in jail or in a psychiatric ward right now.

Lone_Gunman
November 27, 2008, 04:06 PM
If you start shooting at the scene, all bets are off and if you or someone you love gets shot, then it's your fault. Randy weaver killed his wife.

What if the sniper intentionally shot his wife?

I am not sure she was breaking a law.

sig220mw
November 27, 2008, 04:12 PM
Research or remember the case and you will find that not only did Weaver win the case but the federal government awarded him
$100,000 and each of his daughters a cool million dollars. They did this so they wouldn't have to admit in public what they ILLEGALLY did. The most punishment handed out to FBI personnel was censureship and 15 day suspensions. Horiuchi ( did I spell that right) received no punishment at all. After all he only shot an unarmed woman in the face while she was holding a dangerous baby and standing in the door to hold it open for Randy to run in the house. It was also learned from the little info that seeped out that the FBI people had talked about her being the glue that held the family together and they then decided that she indeed needed to be killed if things didn't go exactly as planned. Nice huh! All you guys that don't think a federal officer or agency will run over your rights or plant evidence better wake up. Why do you think they wouldn't let the Waco fire department in to stop the fire and they instead bulldozed every piece of the structure into the fire? Never mind that some of the FBI video tapes also just some how disappeared. Tyris November 27, 2008, 04:17 PM They just got sucker punched: http://www.progunleaders.org/H-S/ -T sig220mw November 27, 2008, 04:17 PM Randy Weaver did not kill his wife the feds came in and found his son hunting in the woods and shot his hunting dog and then the boy. The feds shot first they did not attempt an arrest they shot. The boy did shoot at them, but wouldn't you if someone approached you in the woods and starting shooting first? Husker1911 November 27, 2008, 04:43 PM So you'd be OK with a gang banger shooting at a beat cop because the cop tried to arrest him for drug possession? Classic strawman! That's precisely not what the other poster was saying/implying. Tyris November 27, 2008, 04:55 PM http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/3615/fireshotcapture1hspreciwb2.png -T BHP FAN November 27, 2008, 05:03 PM ''Research or remember the case and you will find that not only did Weaver win the case but the federal government awarded him$100,000 and each of his daughters a cool million dollars. They did this so they wouldn't have to admit in public what they ILLEGALLY did. The most punishment handed out to FBI personnel was censureship and 15 day suspensions. Horiuchi ( did I spell that right) received no punishment at all. After all he only shot an unarmed woman in the face while she was holding a dangerous baby and standing in the door to hold it open for Randy to run in the house. It was also learned from the little info that seeped out that the FBI people had talked about her being the glue that held the family together and they then decided that she indeed needed to be killed if things didn't go exactly as planned. Nice huh! All you guys that don't think a federal officer or agency will run over your rights or plant evidence better wake up. Why do you think they wouldn't let the Waco fire department in to stop the fire and they instead bulldozed every piece of the structure into the fire? Never mind that some of the FBI video tapes also just some how disappeared...''

Couldn't have put it better myself.Does anyone think the Government would have paid out damages if it was a rightous shoot?!
__________________

RPCVYemen
November 27, 2008, 05:21 PM
Couldn't have put it better myself.Does anyone think the Government would have paid out damages if it was a righteous shoot?!

The government would - an in fact did - pay damages due to a unintentional shooting of an innocent person.

Mike

RPCVYemen
November 27, 2008, 05:29 PM
BTW, while searching for info about the wrongful death lawsuit, I found a web page which included the following. It appears the Federal prosecutors were very upset with the rules of engagement, but not with Lon Horiuchi for following them. That surprised me - usually they blame the grunt, and the brass walks ...

Federal prosecutors eventually ended a two-year long probe into several FBI officials for their role in the Ruby Ridge standoff. Following the investigation, Danny Coulson, former head of FBI headquarters, was given a letter of censure; Michael Kahoe, who had been involved in researching the rules of engagement, was censured and suspended for 15 days; Richard Rogers, head of the hostage rescue team, was censured and suspended for 10 days; Larry Potts, the man who had approved the rules of engagement, was censured; Eugene Glenn, Ruby Ridge field commander, was censured and suspended for 15 days, and Lou Horiuchi, the HRT "Blue" sniper/observer team leader, received no punishment for his actions, ...

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/21.html

Mike

BHP FAN
November 27, 2008, 05:30 PM
''The government would - an in fact did - pay damages due to a unintentional shooting of an innocent person...''

good point.

Audrey
November 27, 2008, 06:56 PM
Because there seem to be differing opinions expressed in this thread, I'm sure it will be locked soon ...

However, I must ask Mike what his source is for this gem:

The government would - an in fact did - pay damages due to a unintentional shooting of an innocent person.

Who says it was unintentional? Lon? His superiors? The "government?" All of the above? Have any independent investigators determined that Lon's kill was unintentional?

Odd1
November 27, 2008, 07:50 PM
The OP's point (I thought anyway) was that it was a bad idea for HS to have Lon H give endorsments.

Now regardless of your opinions on Lon H or what he did I think most people would it agree it is in bad idea to make such a controversional figure (where there is a great deal of emotion) giving endorsements. If not bad taste, it is not good marketing.

Some could say this would be like M Vick (spelling?) endorsing some line of dog food or pet products. He may know a thing or to about dogs, but most folks do not see him in a positive light regarding them. You can do it, it just opens your company to controversory.

Whatever you think happened at Ruby Ridge, you would have to say it was not a text book example of how to conduct a LE opertaion. Mistakes were made, on both sides. What mistakes I leave up to your own opinion.

Deanimator
November 27, 2008, 08:31 PM
So you'd be OK with a gang banger shooting at a beat cop because the cop tried to arrest him for drug possession?
Federal authorities made no attempt to arrest ANYONE until AFTER the shootings of Weaver's dog, Weaver's son and Marshall Degan. I'm not even sure they tried to arrest anyone until after Kevin Harris and Vicki Weaver were shot.

What can you show me to demonstrate that the Federal Marshalls who STARTED THE SHOOTING had a warrant of ANY kind?

General Geoff
November 27, 2008, 08:40 PM
The Marshals had a warrant for Weaver as issued by the judge for not showing up to his hearing (because his summons had the wrong date on it).

Gator
November 27, 2008, 09:17 PM
...a unintentional shooting of an innocent person.

OK, you say the shooting of Vicki Weaver was unintentional....a tragic accident. You apparently wholly believe Horiuchi's second story that he was shooting at Kevin Harris when his shot hit Vicki. Why then did Horiuchi pose for a picture with Vicki Weaver's dress for his personal scrapbook of pictures of his kills? Does this sound like the behavior of someone who unintentionally killed an innocent person?

You are also overlooking Horiuchi's first shot which started the chain of events leading to Vicki's death. He first shot Randy Weaver in the back when he was checking on his son's body. That's two shots at unarmed innocent people; unless you consider failure to appear a serious enough crime to warrant shooting on sight, then I guess Randy could be considered guilty of that. :rolleyes:

I sent an e-mail to H-S Tuesday night, one of many, I'm sure. Has anyone heard of a response from them yet?

velojym
November 27, 2008, 09:23 PM
He did hit Kevin. Vicki just happened to be in the way. No problem for someone like him.

Gator
November 27, 2008, 09:31 PM
You're right there, velojym. Remember the picture Horiuchi drew right after the shooting clearly showing two heads in the window of the door? He knew someone was in the line of fire, but he didn't care. Later on he changed his story and said the curtain in the window was drawn and he couldn't see anyone standing there...but he forgot to destroy his drawing.

November 27, 2008, 09:40 PM
Why then did Horiuchi pose for a picture with Vicki Weaver's dress for his personal scrapbook of pictures of his kills?

color me skeptical got a source? other than wnd or newsmax? sturmfront is out too.

Gator
November 27, 2008, 09:54 PM
How about Gerry Spence and the rest of Weaver's lawyers? It was part of the testimony at his trial.

X-Rap
November 27, 2008, 11:09 PM
Spence wrote a book about it, pretty good read I thought. Pointed out a lot of injustice by the Federal Gov.

RPCVYemen
November 27, 2008, 11:24 PM

You're welcome. :)

The bullet that struck Mrs. Weaver was fired seconds after the first shot. It was intended for a man who Special Agent Horiuchi mistakenly believed was the one he had just shot in the vicinity of the birthing shed. Special Agent Horiuchi fired at his intended target while he was running toward the cabin and before he reached the cabin door.

Tragically, Mrs. Weaver was struck by that shot while she stood behind the open front door of the cabin.

Special Agent Horiuchi said he could not see Mrs. Weaver when he took the second shot and that he had no reason to believe that she was standing there. The shot that killed Mrs. Weaver was not even fired at or into the cabin; it travelled on a path parallel to the cabin.

Special Agent Horiuchi made one thing abundantly clear during his testimony at the trial of Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris: he did not see Vicki Weaver or anyone else behind the cabin door when he fired the second shot. Special Agent Horiuchi has testified that he was aiming at a moving target -- Kevin Harris -- at that time.

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1995_hr/s951019f.htm

Mike

November 27, 2008, 11:33 PM
wheres this pic at? i can't find it anywhere outside of freeper references

DMF
November 27, 2008, 11:44 PM
Either Horiuchi was unaware that his target was a non-combatant (in which case he should not have taken the shot by any reasonable standard) or he was aware and simply did not care (in which case he is a depraved and sick human being).
Horiuchi's intended target was not Vicki Weaver, and in fact he could not see Vicki Weaver when attempted to shoot Kevin Harris.

But why let the facts get in the way of your agenda right? :rolleyes:

DMF
November 27, 2008, 11:48 PM
So how did the courts treat Weaver, did he go to jail or did they let him go with alot of money for his trouble????He was convicted and sentenced for his failure to appear in court. You know that FTA that caused the USMS service to be out there preparing to arrest him. Had Weaver shown up for court to participate in his due process rights as assured by the Constitution DUSM Degan, Sam Weaver, and Vicki Weaver wouldn't have died in that tragedy. Make no mistake about it the origin of that tragedy was Weaver's refusal to come to court.

DMF
November 27, 2008, 11:50 PM
The Clintons knew if Horuichi was prosecuted that they couldn't get their troops to work for them. How could they kill all those at Waco if they knew they were going to get charged for murder??
Blaming Clinton for Waco is one of the most ridiculous claims ever made on this forum.

DMF
November 27, 2008, 11:52 PM
However Horuichi went on to kill at Waco . . .So when did it become acceptable to outright lie on THR. Horiuchi didn't kill anyone at Waco.

DMF
November 27, 2008, 11:54 PM
Having actually met him . . .I believe that about as much as I believe you're Santa Claus.:rolleyes:

Mauserguy
November 27, 2008, 11:55 PM
"The Marshals had a warrant for Weaver as issued by the judge for not showing up to his hearing (because his summons had the wrong date on it)."

A warrant for a hearing with the wrong date on it for charges that were eventually determined invalid because the agents entrapped Weaver. Regardless of what you think about whether the Marshals should have gone to arrest Weaver, shooting a woman and baby was over-reach and bad policing.

If all of this was a mere accident, then Horiuchi should have been fired for negligence. However you view the facts, Horiuchi should not be endorcing products.
Mauserguy

DMF
November 27, 2008, 11:57 PM
Strange that he has nothing to say about the BATF lying to the Federal Marshalls about Weaver being a "bank robber", which was of course the proximate cause of ALL of the deaths. ATF never told the USMS that Weaver was a bank robber. Again, when did it become OK to outright lie on THR?

DMF
November 28, 2008, 12:02 AM
Yes, I suppose you could say that the prosecutor dropped the charges, but it would overlook the fact that he only did so as a result of the delay incurred as a result of the sovereign immunity claim that was the basis for the first dismissal. I think leaving that part out is intellectually dishonest, but you can do as you will.No what's dishonest is for you to claim you know the prosecutors intent. I don't know it either, but I do know this I have never seen a prosecutor decline to prosecute a death case, whether murder or manslaughter simply because too much time has passed. The passage of time in that case had little affect on the prosecution's case, because it was one of the most thoroughly investigated incidents in LE history, and the evidence was extremely well documented. There would need to be more than the mere passing of a few years to prevent a prosecution. There have been murder prosecutions decades after the crime, where those cases didn't get nearly as thorough an investigation as the incident at Ruby Ridge.

ilbob
November 28, 2008, 12:06 AM
Horiuchi's intended target was not Vicki Weaver, and in fact he could not see Vicki Weaver when attempted to shoot Kevin Harris.

Did you think he was just going to admit what he did?

In any case, this is an exceedingly stupid thing for H-S to do, and an incredible reach for any defense of what happened at RR. There should have been multiple prison sentences handed out to any number of fedgov employees for the sheer volume of lies they told after the fact, if nothing else. But, I am sure the apologists for fedgov iron fisted thuggery will say there is nothing wrong with creative report writing.

DMF
November 28, 2008, 12:12 AM
Randy Weaver was "selling" to the 'ATF - who entrapped him by insisting he cut a barrel below legal limit. You know that nonsense gets repeated often, but how many people actually have taken the time to find out the truth? Obviously not you!

Here it is:
"In October 1989, Randy Weaver sold illegal weapons to a BATF
informant. When BATF agents later attempted to enlist Weaver as
an informant in their investigation of the Aryan Nations, Weaver
refused to cooperate. Seven months later, the government
indicted Weaver for the illegal weapons sales. We have found no
evidence to support the claim that BATF targeted Weaver because
of his religious or political beliefs. Similarly, we found
insufficient evidence to sustain the charge that Weaver was
illegally entrapped into selling the weapons."

"At the World Aryan Congress in July 1987, Fadeley again met
Weaver, who was accompanied by his wife and children. Weaver
mentioned to Fadeley that it was a "struggle" to provide for his
family. Weaver also declared that he did not trust the leaders
of the Aryan Nations and that he did not agree with the actions
of Richard Butler, leader of the Aryan Nations.30 After this
contact, Fadeley continued to view Weaver simply as one of the
many attendees at the World Aryan Congress.
c. Sale of Weapons by Weaver to BATF Informant
Fadeley and Weaver met again at the July 1989 World Aryan
Congress, where Weaver was one of the speakers.31 Fadeley told
Weaver that his gun "business [was] busy." In response, Weaver
did not offer to sell Fadeley firearms, but he did invite Fadeley
to a house he was renting to discuss forming a group to fight the
"Zionist Organized Government," a term used by Aryan Nations
members to refer to the U.S. Government.32 According to Weaver,
the proposed group was to include [ ] and [
,] who had been convicted of an explosives violation and
had formed an Aryan Nations splinter group in Montana,33 was of "continuing investigative interest" to the
BATF. After learning of Weaver's plan to include [ ] in
this group, the BATF began to view Weaver as a possible point of
introduction to [ .34]
On September 8, 1989, at BATF's request, Fadeley telephoned
Weaver and arranged to meet him on October 11.35 Fadeley did
not record his conversations with Weaver during the October 11
was going. Fadeley replied that he was "extremely busy" and that
he had sold all his "product." Weaver explained that he would
like to assist Fadeley and that ['
'36
] Weaver tnen asked wnat the most popular items were,
ana Fadeley described the "street" weapons he thought he could
sell, including shotguns. In response, Weaver said that he could
supply four or five shotguns per week.[
that there would be "no paper," that is, the weapons would not
have registration documents.37
As the two men left the meeting, Fadeley walked to Weaver's
truck where Weaver showed Fadeley a shotgun and indicated a spot
on the barrel where he thought it could be cut. Fadeley pointed
to the weapon and said "about here"38 [39 ]
Following the meeting, Special Agent Herbert Byerly, Fadeley's
BATF contact agent, conducted various records checks on
Weaver.40
On October 13, 1989, Fadeley telephoned Weaver from a BATF
office and recorded the conversation to confirm his report of the
October 11 meeting. During this discussion, Fadeley and Weaver
used agreed upon code words and referred to weapons as [
41]
On October 24, 1989, Weaver met with Fadeley, who was
wearing a miniature tape recorder and an electronic transmitter.
At that time, Weaver gave Fadeley two shotguns, one with a 13
inch barrel, the other with a 12-3/4 inch barrel. Weaver told
under a shade tree with a vise and a hacksaw," and added that,
"when I get my workshop set up I can do a better job."42
Fadeley paid Weaver $300.00 for the weapons. When Weaver requested an additional$150.00 for the weapons, Fadeley told hi:
that he would give him the additional money at the next
purchase.43 Fadeley then proceeded to tell Weaver that
"[t]here is money to be had, and it looks like [you] did a real
nice job". He then asked Weaver, "You figured four cr five a week?" to which Weaver replied, "yeah, or more." Weaver repeated
that there would be no paper trail on the weapons.44
Fadeley met Weaver again on November 30, 1989 with the
intent of arranging a trip to Montana to meet [ ] At this
shotguns available for purchase. When Fadeley told him that he
had not brought enough money to pay for them.[
weaver told Fadeley that he was not able to go to Montana that
day, [
] Fadeley paid Weaver $100 toward the balance of tne previous purchase of two sawed-off shotguns.45 Following this meeting, Byerly instructed Fadeley to have no additional contact with Weaver.46" http://www.justice.gov/opr/readingroom/rubyreportcover_39.pdf Again, why let the truth get in the way of your agenda? :rolleyes: DMF November 28, 2008, 12:15 AM The training is now militarized and centers around escalating to a physical confrontation followed by overwhelming force. Police training now subtly but heavily emphasizes a shutdown of conscience and a focus on following orders in the quest to force compliance from the citizen.Where do you get this crap? Modern LE training is nothing like you describe. Treo November 28, 2008, 12:17 AM Horiuchi's intended target was not Vicki Weaver, and in fact he could not see Vicki Weaver when attempted to shoot Kevin Harris So we're expected to believe that a man reputed to be able to hit a nickle at 100YDs missed Kevin Harris by 10 inches and "accidently" put one through Vicky Weaver's brain pan? And this amidst the rumors that she was a priority target? DMF do you work for or are you conected to any law enforcement agency? Regardless of individual opinions I would say that this thread itself indicates that Horiuchi is a poor choice for a spokes person. General Geoff November 28, 2008, 12:19 AM You know that FTA that caused the USMS service to be out there preparing to arrest him. Had Weaver shown up for court to participate in his due process rights as assured by the Constitution DUSM Degan, Sam Weaver, and Vicki Weaver wouldn't have died in that tragedy. Make no mistake about it the origin of that tragedy was Weaver's refusal to come to court. HE DID NOT REFUSE TO COME TO COURT. His official summons had the WRONG DATE listed. I still can't believe he was convicted of that failure to appear charge, knowing that the summons was wrong. DMF November 28, 2008, 12:21 AM Research or remember the case and you will find that not only did Weaver win the case . . . No he lost the case that caused the USMS to be on his property doing surveillance while preparing to arrest him. He was convicted and sentenced to 18 months on the charges related to his failure to appear in court on his original case. DMF November 28, 2008, 12:24 AM Randy Weaver did not kill his wife the feds came in and found his son hunting in the woods and shot his hunting dog and then the boy. The feds shot first they did not attempt an arrest they shot. The boy did shoot at them, but wouldn't you if someone approached you in the woods and starting shooting first?They weren't out hunting, they were out patrolling the property looking for cops. That's what the family had done since Weaver had been released on bond. DMF November 28, 2008, 12:27 AM What can you show me to demonstrate that the Federal Marshalls who STARTED THE SHOOTING had a warrant of ANY kind?Are you kidding me? They had an arrest warrant for Weaver based on his FTA for the original case. That charge for which they had an arrest warrant was what he was ultimately convicted on, and sentenced to 18 months. General Geoff November 28, 2008, 12:27 AM They weren't out hunting, they were out patrolling the property looking for cops. Prove it. Treo November 28, 2008, 12:30 AM DMF, Would you mind terribly answering this specific question ? DMF do you work for or are you connected to or retired from any law enforcement agency? Added emphasis italized DMF November 28, 2008, 12:31 AM The Marshals had a warrant for Weaver as issued by the judge for not showing up to his hearing (because his summons had the wrong date on it).That is not correct. Weaver was originally given a trial date of February 19. The court changed that to February 20th, and attempted to notify Weaver, including trying to notify Weaver through his lawyer. The wrong date was on a letter sent by the officer working for US Probation that was supervising Weaver while released on bond. The letter references the trial date, incorrectly, but was a letter asking why Weaver was not complying with the conditions of bond set by the court. You see Weaver was already in violation of the conditions of bond when that letter was sent. Weaver had already started to act in a manner hostile to the court. Regardless, the correct date had been sent to Weaver and his lawyer by the court clerk. However, Weaver was already refusing to communicate with his attorney. So Weaver was violating the conditions of bond, refusing to communicate with his attorney, and then Weaver did not show up for court, either on the correct date that the court and his attorney tried to notify him of, or the incorrect correct date referenced in a letter about his failure to comply with conditions of bond. Despite the fact the court and his lawyer actually did attempt to notify Weaver of the correct court date, IMO you'd have a decent point if the USMS had tried to arrest Weaver before the incorrect March 20 court date referenced in the letter from the probation officer. However, they did not do that. In fact they didn't arrest him immediately following March 20th. Instead they attempted to get him to come to court for a year and a half. In that time the Randy and Vicki Weaver made threatening statements, and the ENTIRE family (including Sam Weaver) was known through surveillance to be prepared for an armed confrontation with law enforcement. The DUSMs that were on the Weaver property in August of 92 were attempting to recon the property in preparation for an operation that would hopefully allow the USMS to arrest Weaver without violence. Unfortunately Randy Weaver, Kevin Harris, Sam Weaver and the family dog went out and confronted them and a shootout resulted. However, let's not pretend that one typo from the probation officer gave Weaver justification for his actions, especially considering the court clerk and his lawyer tried to get him the correct court date, and no attempt to arrest Weaver was made before the incorrect later date referenced in the probation letter. Further, Weaver had already been violating the conditions of his bond prior to the probation officer sending out that letter. DMF November 28, 2008, 12:34 AM You are also overlooking Horiuchi's first shot which started the chain of events leading to Vicki's death. He first shot Randy Weaver in the back when he was checking on his son's body. That's two shots at unarmed innocent people . . . Weaver was shot while carrying a rifle. Horiuchi said Weaver was attempting to take aim on a helicopter flying overhead. Whether or not the issue of trying to shoot the helo is true, does not change the fact that your claim that Weaver was unarmed is false. Treo November 28, 2008, 12:35 AM DMF, Is there any particular reason you keep ( apparently) ducking this question. DMF do you work for or are you connected to or retired from any law enforcement agency? DMF November 28, 2008, 12:38 AM How about Gerry Spence and the rest of Weaver's lawyers? It was part of the testimony at his trial.Always nice to catch someone in a lie. Spence didn't call any witnesses or put on any evidence. He merely cross examined the government's witnesses, and made closing arguments. "During the trial, the prosecution called 56 witnesses, while the defense, confident that the government would destroy their own case, called none." http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/19.html DMF November 28, 2008, 12:40 AM Did you think he was just going to admit what he did?It's not a question of Horiuchi's statements on the matter, the physical evidence shows he could not see her when he fired the shot. Byron Quick November 28, 2008, 12:41 AM The FBI made the claim some time before Ruby Ridge that its snipers could hit within a quarter inch at a hundred yards. That leaves one with either one of two conclusions-the FBI was lying through its teeth or Lon Horiuchi hit exactly what he was aiming at. As far as him not being convicted of murder proving anything...in 1958 two cops shot my next door neighbor in the field behind our houses. Six times in the back of the head and neck from a distance of eighteen inches. One was convicted. Of voluntary manslaughter. The other was never charged. Law enforcement officers have a history of questionable homicides with the subsequent investigation having the appearance of being a whitewash. RPCVYemen, give you some homework. Find a case of a private citizen who was found guilty of voluntary manslaughter after shooting someone six times. Not a plea bargain as this was not a plea bargain. All this officer was ever charged with was voluntary manslaughter. I own two rifles with HS Precision stocks. I'll be replacing them as soon as possible with McMillan's. And cutting up the crap. It's not a question of Horiuchi's statements on the matter, the physical evidence shows he could not see her when he fired the shot. __________________ So basically, you are saying that Horiuchi was not sure of his target or what was beyond it? Are you also claiming that he is competent in handling a firearm? I suppose the reported taunting of the Weaver family by calling Vicki's name repeatedly after she was shot never happened either? Oh, of course not, the FBI didn't know she'd been shot by accident. The FBI has never 'inadvertently' set numerous buildings on fire either have they? DMF November 28, 2008, 12:43 AM So we're expected to believe that a man reputed to be able to hit a nickle at 100YDs missed Kevin Harris by 10 inches and "accidently" put one through Vicky Weaver's brain pan? And this amidst the rumors that she was a priority target? Yeah, because the physical evidence shows he could not see her when he fired that shot. It's that simple. You know we've been down this road before, but some of you choose to remain willfully ignorant of the facts. Here's a refresher - from the original 9th Circuit case: "The man approached the door of the cabin very quickly, then slowed down, paused and went through the door. Hori- uchi had aimed his rifle ahead of the man at the door to account for the distance that he would move while the bullet traveled the intervening 200 yards. Unbeknownst to Horiuchi, Vicki Weaver was on the other side of the door, holding it open, out of Horiuchi's view. She was shot and killed. The bullet then struck Harris in the shoulder. The door to the cabin opened out. The bullet went through a pane of glass in the cabin door. There were curtains that could be pulled across the window. It was disputed whether the curtains were drawn when Horiuchi took his shot, but the bullet hole in the curtains lined up with the hole in the glass only if the curtain was pulled across the glass. . . . . . Horiuchi's testimony that he never saw Vicki Weaver and did not know she was behind the door was not disputed. . ." (emphasis added) General Geoff November 28, 2008, 12:44 AM DMF, please answer Treo's question. DMF November 28, 2008, 12:46 AM HE DID NOT REFUSE TO COME TO COURT. His official summons had the WRONG DATE listed. I still can't believe he was convicted of that failure to appear charge, knowing that the summons was wrong.Again, that is simply not true. The court gave Weaver and Weaver's attorney the correct date. Weaver refused to communicate with his lawyer. Weaver was also violating the conditions of his bond. The probation officer assigned to supervise Weaver while on bond sent Weaver a letter regarding Weaver's failure to comply with the conditions of bond, and that letter referenced the trial date incorrectly. However, as I said the court actually provided Weaver and his lawyer with the correct trial date. Treo November 28, 2008, 12:52 AM DMF, please answer Treo's question. DMF, please answer Treo's question. X-Rap November 28, 2008, 12:52 AM You can clearly see the rational that the gov. uses in these latest posts. Those that deny an us against them mentality only need to read this thread. I only hope that these limited events don't become the norm or we are in a world of s**t. The feds walked from the Idaho courtroom because they were the feds plain and simple. DMF November 28, 2008, 12:54 AM DMF, Is there any particular reason you keep ( apparently) ducking this question. DMF do you work for or are you connected to or retired from any law enforcement agency? 1st, I've been going through this thread sequentially responding to posts in order. I was not ducking your question, it just takes time to get through seven pages of posts. You might try to learn some patience, and the same goes for you General Geoff. 2nd, what if I was refusing to answer that question? I am not required to answer, and whether or not I do it's irrelevant to the discussion. 3rd, I have been a member of THR for more than 4 years, and am approaching nearly 2000 posts. It is well established on here that I work in LE. So that makes your inquiry a low priority. Feel free to read my previous posts over the last 4 years. I have not attempted in any way shape or form to hide the fact that I am a cop. Treo November 28, 2008, 01:02 AM DMF, Is there any particular reason you keep ( apparently) ducking this question.1st, I've been going through this thread sequentially responding to posts in order. I was not ducking your question, it just takes time to get through seven pages of posts. You might try to learn some patience, and the same goes for you General Geoff So you had time to read and sequentially answer this question So we're expected to believe that a man reputed to be able to hit a nickle at 100YDs missed Kevin Harris by 10 inches and "accidently" put one through Vicky Weaver's brain pan? And this amidst the rumors that she was a priority target? But not the one line (sequentially) right after it? Entire post (sans the quote I was responding to) So we're expected to believe that a man reputed to be able to hit a nickle at 100YDs missed Kevin Harris by 10 inches and "accidently" put one through Vicky Weaver's brain pan? And this amidst the rumors that she was a priority target? DMF do you work for or are you conected to any law enforcement agency? IDK could be an integrity problem Byron Quick November 28, 2008, 01:04 AM DMF, How about answering mine? It's not a question of Horiuchi's statements on the matter, the physical evidence shows he could not see her when he fired the shot. __________________ So basically, you are saying that Horiuchi was not sure of his target or what was beyond it? Are you also claiming that he is competent in handling a firearm? Sounds as if you're saying he was negligent in taking the shot. General Geoff November 28, 2008, 01:05 AM From the official Ruby Ridge Task Force report (http://www.justice.gov/opr/readingroom/rubyreportcover_39.pdf) (page 2): When Weaver was arraigned on the weapons charges in January 1991, he was told that his trial would commence on February 19, 1991. Two weeks later, the court clerk notified the parties that the trial date had been changed to February 20, 1991. Shortly thereafter, the U.S. Probation Office sent Weaver a letter which incorrectly referenced his trial date as March 20, 1991. After Weaver failed to appear for trial on February 20, the court issued a bench warrant for his arrest. Three weeks later, on March 14, a federal grand jury indicted Weaver for his failure to appear for trial. We found that: the government, especially the USAO, was unnecessarily rigid in its approach to the issues created by the erroneous letter; that the USAO improvidently sought an indictment before March 20, 1991; and that the USAO erred in failing to inform the grand jury of the erroneous letter. Seems that the task force itself thinks the government is at least partially responsible with its imprudent actions regarding the erroneous trial date listed on the letter. DMF November 28, 2008, 01:08 AM IDK could be an integrity problemNice try, but not an integrity problem at all. See points two and three of my response. You and General Geoff can try to make an issue of it if you want, but it's been clearly established that I'm a cop, and as I said not only am I not obligated to answer your question, I did not feel it was a priority because it's irrelevant to the facts, and more importantly it's been answered MANY times over the last four years. General Geoff November 28, 2008, 01:10 AM I did not feel it was a priority because it's irrelevant to the facts Irrelevant to the facts, perhaps, but it does wonders for figuring out why you're trying to defend a murderer. marktx November 28, 2008, 01:15 AM ..... it's been clearly established that I'm a cop, and as I said not only am I not obligated to answer your question..... Well I guess we have an answer to the question posed in another thread: Is THR being infiltrated? (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=406514) DMF November 28, 2008, 01:15 AM DMF, How about answering mine? Quote: Quote: It's not a question of Horiuchi's statements on the matter, the physical evidence shows he could not see her when he fired the shot. __________________ So basically, you are saying that Horiuchi was not sure of his target or what was beyond it? Are you also claiming that he is competent in handling a firearm? Sounds as if you're saying he was negligent in taking the shot.I have never made any claims on Horiuchi's competence or whether I thought the shot was negligent. Opinions abound, but what I do discuss is the FACTS. As Vincent Bugliosi once said, and I've quoted before on this forum: "People are entitled to their own opinions, they are not entitled to their own facts." Claims that Horiuchi saw Vicki Weaver, ignores the fact that the physical evidence shows it was impossible for Horiuchi to have seen her. A scope can magnify images, but it isn't capable of seeing through objects such as curtains. cassandrasdaddy November 28, 2008, 01:17 AM Seems that the task force itself thinks the government is at least partially responsible with its imprudent actions regarding the erroneous trial date listed on the letter seems the jury saw all the facts and saw differently than you imagine General Geoff November 28, 2008, 01:19 AM seems the jury saw all the facts and saw differently than you imagine Obviously; otherwise he wouldn't have been convicted. There's always at least three sides to every story. I would argue that the jury most likely did not see all the facts, though. Juries seldom do. Treo November 28, 2008, 01:23 AM Skvoz grozy siialo nam solntse svobody, I Lenin velikij nam put ozaril. Nas vyrastil Stalin - na vernost narodu Na trud i na podvigi nas vdokhnovil. Slavsia, Otechestvo chashe svobodnoe, Schastia narodov nadezhnyj oplot! Znamia sovetskoe, znamia narodnoe Pust ot pobedy k pobede vedet! My armiiu nashu rastili v srazheniakh, Zakhvatchikov podlykh s dorogi smetem! My v bitvakh reshaem sudbu pokolenij, My k slave Otchiznu svoiu povedem! Slavsia, Otechestvo nashe svobodnoe, Slavy narodov nadezhnyj oplot! Znamia sovetskoe, znamia narodnoe Pust ot pobedy k pobede vedet! DMF November 28, 2008, 01:23 AM Well I guess we have an answer to the question posed in another thread: Is THR being infiltrated?Infiltrated? Are you aware of what that word means? Let me help you out: Main Entry: in·fil·trate Listen to the pronunciation of infiltrate Listen to the pronunciation of infiltrate Pronunciation: \in-ˈfil-ˌtrāt, ˈin-(ˌ)\ Function: verb Inflected Form(s): in·fil·trat·ed; in·fil·trat·ing Date: 1758 transitive verb 1 : to cause (as a liquid) to permeate something by penetrating its pores or interstices 2 : to pass into or through (a substance) by filtering or permeating 3 : to pass (troops) singly or in small groups through gaps in the enemy line 4 : to enter or become established in gradually or unobtrusively usually for subversive purposes <the intelligence staff had been infiltrated by spies> intransitive verb : to enter, permeate, or pass through a substance or area by filtering or by insinuating gradually I have not infiltrated this forum, I came quickly established my presence and informed readers that I was a cop. On the first day I joined, on my third post, which was made about an hour after joining I said, ". . . I'm a Criminal Investigator . . ." http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=990178#post990178 If you consider that an infiltration, then you have no concept of what an infiltration really is. cassandrasdaddy November 28, 2008, 01:30 AM Obviously; otherwise he wouldn't have been convicted. There's always at least three sides to every story. I would argue that the jury most likely did not see all the facts, though. Juries seldom do. you think weaver was poorly represented? he had gerry spence spence NEVER lost DMF November 28, 2008, 01:35 AM he had gerry spence spence NEVER lostSpence sure did lose. He lost on the Weaver case on the charges related to Weaver's FTA. His client was convicted and got 18 months. ;) ". . . the jury did find him guilty of failing to appear in court and guilty of violating his bail conditions. Randy was then sentenced to 18 months in jail, 14 of which he had already served and fined him$10,000."
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/20.html

November 28, 2008, 01:44 AM
true but his record was incredible and his representation of weaver was strong

meef
November 28, 2008, 01:49 AM
As far as him not being convicted of murder proving anything...in 1958 two cops shot my next door neighbor in the field behind our houses. Six times in the back of the head and neck from a distance of eighteen inches. One was convicted. Of voluntary manslaughter. The other was never charged.

Law enforcement officers have a history of questionable homicides with the subsequent investigation having the appearance of being a whitewash.Careful there, Byron.

You're going to get accused of having a tinfoil hat.

:cool:

BullfrogKen
November 28, 2008, 01:56 AM
I could care less about the dispute over the Weavers and Ruby Ridge. It's done, and I can't do anything about it.

But it amazes me that H-S Precision would use Horiuchi to promote their product line. As I said in post #5

How on earth any person in the long range precision shooting community wouldn't see the name Lon Horiuchi and immediately associate it with either murder or incompetence is beyond me.

Which is exactly what's happened here in this discussion. Debates over either murder or incompetence. What a great way to introduce a product line to the community. :rolleyes:

I really do have to wonder just how much H-S Precision knows it's market right about now. It looks to me to be pretty dang clueless. If they didn't know enough to avoid the name Horiuchi, I have to wonder if they even understand what the long range shooting community wants in a product.

X-Rap
November 28, 2008, 01:59 AM
So we have strayed from the Op greatly. What are the merits of Horiuchis endorsment of HS. I don't think Weavers been asked and his life is certainly not as pleasent as LH's is.

BullfrogKen
November 28, 2008, 02:31 AM
What are the merits of Horiuchis endorsment of HS.

Other than to those ignorant of the controversy, I really don't know.

What am I supposed to do with an endorsement like that? I certainly wouldn't brag about it.

I mean, how would that go over while discussing a collection at the rifle range?

I built this .30-06 rifle based on what Gunny Hathcock worked up for his use in Vietnam. This is the M40A1, which the Marine Corps developed around the 70's. And here is the new H-S Precision PS-2000 HTR, which Lon Horiuchi spec'd out for the FBI.

:uhoh:

Hey buddy, you do know who he is, right? Why would you want to brag about that? Did you build yourself up a Remington 700 just like Charles Whitman's, too?

I have no idea what they thought an endorsement like that would get them, besides conversations exactly like that. There isn't anyone in the long range shooting community who doesn't know that name, and it does not have a good reputation. Even under the most generous depictions of what happened, he's considered incompetent for shooting a woman holding a baby.

Byron Quick
November 28, 2008, 02:48 AM
DMF,

If I shoot at someone with legal justification, miss them, and kill someone who I could not see...what will I be charged with? Charged and probably convicted?

Any way you slice and dice the evidence there's not much to the man.

There's one reason and one reason only that Horiuchi was not charged and tried with, at least, involuntary manslaughter and that is the pressure brought to bear by the federal government.

No case for involuntary manslaughter? Did he fire the weapon that killer Vicki Weaver? Could he see where that bullet would go? According to you the physical evidence showed that he could not. Was firing in that situation negligent according to law?

If so, apparently he was considered by someone to be above the law.

LAK
November 28, 2008, 03:52 AM
rbernieAccording to the Weavers, the Marshalls did not announce themselves as Federal law enforcement agents before or during the first day of the seige. The jury that sat on his trial for the murder of William Degan agreed with Weaver's claim of lawful self-defense; they acquitted him of all charges related to the seige itself. While I do not condone the killing of law enforcement officers, any citizen in this country should possess a basic right to self-defense if the assailants could reasonably be perceived as engaging in unlawful assault.

Oh, and let's not gloss over the fact that it is a matter of public record that the Justice Department review that was conducted after the Ruby Ridge incident specifically identified Lon Horiuchi as irresponsible for his actions in shooting Vicki Weaver. It's not as if the .gov covered up the truth as much as everyone on the .gov side of things chose to hide behind the veil of sovereign immunity.
This is the crux of the Ruby Ridge seige and Weaver case. It should not be forgotten.

-------------------------

http://gtr5.com
http://ssunitedstates.org

Deanimator
November 28, 2008, 05:48 AM
I believe that about as much as I believe you're Santa Claus.
So, you were at Camp Howze, Korea in 1980 and 1981?

I didn't think so.

Treo
November 28, 2008, 06:34 AM
The original idea behind this thread was and is that connecting HS precision & Lon Horiuchi was financial suicide.

Given there are threads like this going on all over the internet. I'd say the original premise was sound

So you were at Camp Howze, Korea in 1980 and 1981

Apparently Dean, Lon Horiuchi existed in a vaccum prior to pulling the trigger on Vicky Weaver. He didn't actually attend West Point and interact W/ thousands of cadets. He wasn't actually selected for Infantry branch ( The smart officers at West Point aren't ) he was never actually in the Army and never really commanded an infantry company.

Therefore out of over sixty thousand members on the rolls at THR there is ZERO chance that any of them could have ever crossed paths W/ him.

I think that's what Herr Sturmbahn Fürher DMF was trying to say

Deanimator
November 28, 2008, 08:36 AM
Apparently Dean, Lon Horiuchi existed in a vaccum prior to pulling the trigger on Vicky Weaver. He didn't actually attend West Point and interact W/ thousands of cadets. He wasn't actually selected for Infantry branch ( The smart officers at West Point aren't ) he was never actually in the Army and never really commanded an infantry company.
Well you know, Tsuji Masanobu, architect of so many WWII Japanese war crimes disappeared under mysterious circumstances after the war. Maybe he's like Randall Flagg, the "Walking Dude" of Stephen King's "The Stand". Perhaps he's always been around and he's just popped up again. I know that's hard to believe, but no harder to believe than the impassioned defenses of Horiuchi by our new found "friends" here.

But hey, I'm just a "liar" who was probably never really in the Army at all...

Art Eatman
November 28, 2008, 09:10 AM
Nine pages on Horiuchi? At Thanksgiving? During deer/quail season? You kidding me?

Enuf.

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