Recovery of stolen gun(s) from police


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mister_murphy
November 26, 2008, 10:28 AM
Hello everyone...

I am writing to you today to ask for information and any legal precendence that you may know of in North Carolina regarding the recovery of a stolen gun to the legal owner, who is eligable to legally possess it, once it has been recovered by the police. Yes, we have the manufacturer's names, serial numbers, calibers, and a brief description recorded. The gun in question was inherited from our grandparents in the early 1990's, and so there is no receipt or 4473 record. the gun was purchased many years ago and was in the family all our lives until stolen.

Long story short. My brother has had some guns stolen about 2 months ago and approximatly 3 weeks ago the local police department recovered 1 of the guns during a investigation into another crime. The gun still has the manufacturer's name and the unique serial number in place and has not been altered as I understand it. The asked my brother to identify the gun and he said he could not be 100% for sure because of some scratches on the stock. Though he did say he was 90% sure it was his gun from the appearance. Evidently, the police do not want to go by the serial number for confirmation. Yes, a atf trace was inconclusive, proving more I feel that the gun was purchased before I was even born in the 70's

The true value in the gun is the heirloom status and also the fact that since it has been in our possession, we may have a legal liability if it is used in a crime. The police officer involved in the case wants to return it to the person who they found in possession of it after it was stolen. That individual has stated that he recently purchased the gun from another private party (no records).

Short of fighting a battle in court, what other ideas do you have to help with this matter? I am at a loss and my brother and I are looking for a lawyer now. Perhaps you know of a legal firm who has handled these things in the past.

We all know stolen property may have the appearance changed, etc so the serial number being recorded should be proof enough. What do you all have to say?

EDIT: No one has been charged with possession of stolen property and they are not pursuing it as far as I know.

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Bubba613
November 26, 2008, 02:02 PM
Something sounds funny.
How did you learn the police had recovered the gun? When it was stolen, did your brother file a report with the serial number and description? The serial number is the identifying item of the gun. To say police don't want to go by that sounds not right in some way.

Sinixstar
November 26, 2008, 02:11 PM
To say police don't want to go by that sounds not right in some way.

I thought the same thing.
Somehow when people post stories on here - there always tends to be something that makes you go "hmmmm"

no offense to the poster - but, something just doesn't add up.
The Serial Number IS the identifier. saying "that looks like my gun" means nothing.

I mean, let's swap guns for cars for a minute - and say it was your stolen car, and they had found it and verified the VIN. Are the cops going to question whether or not it's your car because "well - it didn't have those scratches on it before it was stolen... I think that's my car... but it does look a bit different". No, of course not.

mister_murphy
November 26, 2008, 02:48 PM
The police contacted us to identify the gun once it was recovered during investigation into another crime. A police report was filed by my brother In september, with the manufacturer name, description, serial number, and caliber. The police want a receipt as a record showing ownership or for a dealer or the ATF to produce a copy of the 4473 to show the transfer. They say the list of firearms that I have, listing the manufacturer's names, serial number, model, and caliber is not enough to show proof of ownership. They want a receipt or a copy of the 4473 form to prove ownership.

The gun was purchased before I was even born and was inherited by my brother. The will that list the items we inherited, but just has a very brief description with no serial numbers. The police state they still want either a receipt of the purchase, or a copy of the 4473 showing the transfer from the dealer to the individual.

kurtmax
November 26, 2008, 02:55 PM
Get an attorney. You don't need 'proof of purchase' to own a firearm. The cops are just giving you the runaround. Somebody in the dept. probably wants it for themselves or a friend.

Coronach
November 26, 2008, 03:45 PM
Highly unlikely.

The gun is in their property room, listed by serial number. If the gun wanders OUT of their property room, there has to be a log of who signed it out, or the property clerk is going to be asked some uncomfortable questions. In short, once it is in the property room of the PD, it is very hard to pull some sort of shenanigans with the property.

(That's not to say that it cannot be attempted, but those attempts usually end up with someone being criminally charged. In short, it's a poor idea, even if you ignore the morality of theft)

What is not adding up to me is that the OP knew it was recovered, and the cops "don't want to go by the serial number".

How did they know to contact the victim?

How did the victim know the gun was recovered, if they were not contacted by the police?

What possible reason is there for the police to not want to go by the serial number to identify the owner?

Assuming they actually don't wish to take the S/N as proof of ownership, what proof of ownership would they accept?

More to this story.

Mike

Coronach
November 26, 2008, 03:51 PM
OK, I missed this the first time:The police want a receipt as a record showing ownership or for a dealer or the ATF to produce a copy of the 4473 to show the transfer. They say the list of firearms that I have, listing the manufacturer's names, serial number, model, and caliber is not enough to show proof of ownership. They want a receipt or a copy of the 4473 form to prove ownership.That's crap, unless they have reason to think the gun was stolen in the first place. I'd send a certified letter to the police demanding return of the property immediately, or you will be retaining legal counsel. That usually causes things to get sorted out. If it doesn't, lawyer up and remember to ask for money for your lawyer fees and trouble as part of the settlement.

Mike

Bubba613
November 26, 2008, 04:23 PM
Filing a stolen gun report referencing the make and serial number should be prima facie evidence of ownership. People don't file reports with that detail on the off chance that a gun exactly matching it will turn up.
Unless someone else is also claiming it, which would make sense.

More here to the story, I think.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
November 26, 2008, 04:46 PM
It was stolen, then the thief apparently sold or traded, or gave it to this other party who was "caught" with the goods.

Why did the police even bother to call you to tell you they may have YOUR GUN there at the station, if they are then going to deny giving you YOUR GUN back?!?!:confused:

I agree, a description and SERIAL NUMBER is the identifiable information.

ants
November 26, 2008, 05:00 PM
Welcome to the Forum mister murphy, but as you can see this is a tough crowd that doesn't easily let wool get pulled over the eyes.

Someone is not telling us the whole story.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
November 26, 2008, 06:34 PM
mister_murphy,

You wouldn't be related to Murphy's Law, would you?:uhoh:

mister_murphy
November 26, 2008, 07:52 PM
Hey guys,

Just got back a couple of hours ago from the police department again. I agree something is up but dont know for sure what... I did find out the person that was found in possession of it has not been charged yet, and we insisted that he be charged with possession of stolen property. Secondly, I believe the person is also fighting to keep the gun.

Also, since my first post about it I have contacted an attorney who will handle the case. We go for another meeting monday at the PD to see if they will release it monday after they review the documents and written statements we presented them with today. If the gun is not returned monday we will turn it over to the lawyer. I am just trying to figure out what is going on myself.

I appreciate your help and I will update you monday when we meet with them again.

BTW, No, I am not related to the Murphy of Murphy's laws.... :)

the foot
November 26, 2008, 08:07 PM
Good luck mister murphy, it sounds like there is something funny going on down at your local police station.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
November 27, 2008, 06:19 AM
I hope they and you can figure out what the big hassle is about giving back a gun to its rightful owner.

I hope all goes well without your spending a lot of money (or any money, as far as that goes).

TEDDY
November 27, 2008, 11:27 AM
before 1968 there were no atf forms.all you got was a store receipt.some guns did not have a serial no.I have rifles like that.and dont say they cant get a gun or anything else from the evidence room.some time it does not get to the room.I know as it happened to me.and in Mass retired could get a gun for $10 or nothing. :rolleyes::uhoh:

DMF
November 27, 2008, 01:49 PM
OK, I missed this the first time:
Quote:
The police want a receipt as a record showing ownership or for a dealer or the ATF to produce a copy of the 4473 to show the transfer. They say the list of firearms that I have, listing the manufacturer's names, serial number, model, and caliber is not enough to show proof of ownership. They want a receipt or a copy of the 4473 form to prove ownership.
That's crap, unless they have reason to think the gun was stolen in the first place. I'd send a certified letter to the police demanding return of the property immediately, or you will be retaining legal counsel. That usually causes things to get sorted out. If it doesn't, lawyer up and remember to ask for money for your lawyer fees and trouble as part of the settlement.Well it's not as simple as you're making it out to be. Just because some has generated a list of items, with serial numbers, is not proof that person is the legal owner of those items.

I have detailed descriptions of several firearms that I owned at one time, but have since been sold. I could easily produce the same type of list the OP referenced, but that is not proof that I own all those guns. Further, I still have the reciepts, and if a LE agency did an ATF trace the 4473 on those guns would come back to me as the original purchaser, but that still does not prove those guns are legally mine.

Situations like this are why I get a bill of sale made up for private part sales of valuable property, whether it's guns or other items of significant value.

Coronach
November 27, 2008, 02:35 PM
Right, I agree, but the timing of the whole thing is important. That's why I said "unless they think the gun was stolen in the first place". I probably should have been more clear. If the most recent possessor of the gun is claiming it is his, and that the OP was in fact the person who stole it, that's a more complex situation. However, one would think that the police would need a reason to believe this. This may very well fall under "more to the story", or it could fall under a bureaucratic reluctance to release the property. There's really no way to tell which, at this point.

Sending the certified letter and/or retaining legal counsel makes it clear that this is not an issue that is going to just go away, so they need to be taking steps to figure out to whom the gun will ultimately be released.

Mike

mister_murphy
November 28, 2008, 11:04 AM
I was told this morning by another officer at the PD that they will be returning the gun to my brother sometime next week.

They asked if it was returned to my brother, if they (the PD) would have access to the gun if they charge the person who they found in possession of it, and need it for evidence. Our position is that is great, as long as the gun is maintained and well kept, and is my brothers property returned after trial, PERIOD.

My brother has purchased a gun safe now. So that will be an improvement. The gun in question as well as 4 other guns were stolen from my brothers residence by a known person (his ex gf). His ex was charged with some assault charges, but not with the theft...A couple of weeks later, once she was released on bail, she was caught in the act of breaking into is home, charged and sent back to jail, and has been released again on bail awaiting trial.

Over the next few days and as I dig into things more on how to prove possession, I will pass it along to the members here.

The best advice I have found so far is:

1. to have an annually updated list of your firearms with all information noterized by an official notary public.

2. keep any receipts on any transfers and insist that it is dated, and listed the discription and serial number.

3. keep photographs of each firearm.

4. if you are either inheriting or leaving a firearm to a family member in your estate, ensure that it is listed with a complete description and serial number.

birdshot8's
November 28, 2008, 12:07 PM
a property seizure hearing is required to determine ownership of any property recovered by police. alot of property is returned without the hearing (cutting corners). check civil statues or call the justice of the peace with venue for your area.

ants
November 29, 2008, 12:23 AM
Yep, we knew he hadn't told us the whole story!

The brother accused his ex of taking the guns when she got kicked out. This is basically a divorce-type dispute of my-stuff-versus-your-stuff.

You characterized this as though it was a home burglary, mister murphy, and the guns were found by the police "during an investigation into another crime". You asked us for advice without giving us the right details.

You should have told us the ex-girlfriend took his stuff and wouldn't give it back, so he filed a police report.
No wonder the cops were being so careful in their investigation. The police weren't doing anything wrong.

I don't respect you for misleading us that way.

mister_murphy
November 29, 2008, 02:06 AM
"The brother accused his ex of taking the guns when she got kicked out. This is basically a divorce-type dispute of my-stuff-versus-your-stuff.

You characterized this as though it was a home burglary, mister murphy, and the guns were found by the police "during an investigation into another crime". You asked us for advice without giving us the right details.

You should have told us the ex-girlfriend took his stuff and wouldn't give it back, so he filed a police report.
No wonder the cops were being so careful in their investigation. The police weren't doing anything wrong.

I don't respect you for misleading us that way."

Its your choice to respect me or not. I guess if any member on this forum decides to let a person (male or female) spend the night at their home on occassion, then from your post they are entitled to any property that they own, real personal, or otherwise. I can see where you view this as a divorce (even though they were never married or spent maybe no more then 2 nights together aat any one time) type settlement, but its more of an occassional spend the night kind of thing which I am sure most people here have done, including myself. Even if I invite a woman to spend the night, it doesnt entitle her to sole ownership of my property, does it? Perhaps you view it if one person spends the night, then they are entitled to half of the entire possessions of the other? If so, that means they are intitled to half the legal liabilities as well, correct? I am sure that if that is the case she needs to pay her half of the mortgage, power bill, legal fees etc. Maybe I am wrong business. For the record, her name is on none of the bills, records, wills, reciepts, etc. All she was was an occassional sleep over.

If I am wrong, please send me the name, and address and who I can sue for a judgement for legal expenses. Besides, I am sure according to your views that I am entitled to my past girlfriends possessions too, or at least half, since even though we were never married we spent a night together. For I am sure many of the women I have dated in the past (and that stayed an occassional night with) owes me plenty according to your views.


The other investigation was actually a person (who was in possession of the stolen gun) who sold a handgun to either a 16 or 17 year old from what I understand. The police found the 16-17 year old with the handgun as a result of a traffic stop, and then the 16-17 year old told who he bought the handgun from. They searched the guys home (who was in possession of my brothers stolen gun) who sold the 16-17 year old the handgun and found my brothers gun that was reported stolen. From the information I have the gun was sold at least twice since stolen in september.

As stated in the previous post, I am asking for legal precedence, and also what others have found to be just proof of ownership of a firearm. The just proof of ownership seems to be the main question. Just for other peoples knowledgle. The 4473 that is the normal firearm transfer record at gun stores is only required to be kept on record for 20 years by the federal government, and ATF. I have several signed writted statements that the gun was purchased more then 30 years ago, 1 by the lawyer who wrote the will, was later elceted as a judge, and retired as a judge that the gun in question was in the family for the entire time. From the police request, they want a record of who the firearm was last legally transferred to by a dealer, and they declare that person the owner, unless there is substatial evidence otherwise.

Btw, if we are the only people who have had a girlfriend or boyfriend sleep over (I doubt so, perhaps many of your girlfriends, boyfriends, etc have spent a night on occassion) on this forum I appologize. But I never thought it would entitle any person to 1/2 or whole ownership of property according to this poster unless they were legally married.

Again, if anyone has legal precedence in north carolina as to what constitutes legal ownership of a gun, please contact me. I have many written statements, a copy of the will, the firearm logs of our family that list each firearm, etc. But what legally, according to legal precedence in North Carolina, is accepted as ownership of a firearm?

Forgive me for coming of sounding harsh, but never thought of an occassional sleep over entitling a person to property, real or otherwise. I always thought that was a marriage license or 7 years of living together completely (no breaks or moveouts within the 7 years).

mister_murphy
November 29, 2008, 03:07 AM
Appologies needed. Forgive me for coming of sounding harsh to the one poster. Only one member of the forum said it was a divorce type situation, instead of what it really is, an ex girlfriend that occassionally slept over for a night. As from my previous post, it is an ex-girlfriend situation. It is not a live in, nor a divorce. It is believed by us that she stole the guns, sold them to 1 person and that person sold at least 1 gun (the 1 that has been recovered) to a second person.

If anyone on this forum, can cite case law, or proof of a north carolina law enforcement agency declaring proof of ownership of a stolen gun, please either post to this entry, or send me a private message, with either a way to look up the court proceedings, a north carolina OCA number and the department, officer, and disposition, or a way to otherwise prove by way of a previous by way of legal precedence the way to prove the legal owner of a stolen gun.

Hey guys, I admit. It is easier said here on an internet forum then done in the real world. I am living it right now. As a side note, my father and I have in our possession the other firearms that were inherited. The one stolen (inherited by my brother), and the others (1 inherited by myself, the others inherited by my father) mentioned in the will except for having the serial numbers recorded. 1 of the guns we have in our possession was purchased within months of the gun that was stolen, as atested to by our father. Again, the 4473 forms are only required to be kept for 20 years before they can be destroyed by either the dealer or the feds. Myself and my father have the firearms that we inherited in our possession, and we have turned over a list of said firearms to the police department in question, as well as offering to show them as proof to the pd as proof that none were sold or will be sold until our blood decendents deaths. We have a verbal agreement that anyone in the family that is in financial need will sell his/her inherited firearms that to another blood family member due to legal liability to selling firearms to other persons.

Again, I am asking for a legal precedence, or a way to look up the way a court has declared the righful owner of a firearm in north carolina. As far as this post, no one has offered a court case, an OCA number, or a verifiable police department reference from any law enforcement agency in north carolina.

I know I am not the only person that has to gain or loose from this thread. Any information I find out I will post, and if possible I will cite references and court cases if I am directed to them, or find out from our attorney or from our investigation into this matter.

I can not stress it enough, for you, for me, and for anyone else on this forum from north carolina that owns firearms. We must find a way to prove ownership even if the 4473 form is not available or if it was a private sale. Just for the record, I have sold a few guns over the last few years that I purchased new (I will not sell any that I have inherited, regardless of money, yes, a few are worth 5 figures and are well insured) . All but 2 that I purchased new (they were sold years ago) I had transfered by a FFL. Researching things years back, and even now, I will only sell a firearm through a FFL. I know it is not law or a requirement, but I ask many people either request proof of a criminal background, or transfer through a FFL. It is amazing who wants to buy but when I mention a background check, and transfer through a FFL they suddenly shy away.

TCB in TN
November 29, 2008, 03:13 AM
Welcome here Mr. Muphy, please overlook some folks on here who obviously need to get a life. Small people with small minds who can't read and look to "catch" people to make themselves feel better.

she was caught in the act of breaking into is home, charged and sent back to jail, and has been released again on bail awaiting trial.

Reading comprehension skills are a bit lacking for some folks around here! It makes it easier to pull the wool over their eyes! :rolleyes:

NavyLCDR
November 29, 2008, 03:37 AM
1. mister_murphy, I don't think you did anything wrong here.

2. Unfortunately, the stigma associated with gun ownership and proof of ownership is that, "OMG, It's a gun, there's got to be some paperwork... some background investigation!" Well, in free states, where that is not required for private sales, the gun is just an item like a watch or ring or anything else. If someone reported a watch stolen however long ago, and described the watch with a distinctive mark such an inscription or a serial number and the police found that watch in the hands of a person who is of very obvious dubious character, would they be asking for all kinds of paperwork other than the original stolen property report to return it to its rightful owner? NO. But a gun...OMG!

mister_murphy
November 29, 2008, 04:22 AM
Thanks TCB in TN, I feel alittle more welcome. For a minute I thought I was writing everything here only to be ignored and accused...

I agree the gun vs the watch leads to other questions in some localities. I have spoken to officers from a few different juristictions. It is suprising that it goes from basic to the extreme of proving ownership of property. I have had 2 different agencies say that all that they require is the "incident report" listing the items stolen, in case of guns, listing the serial number, and the threat of purjery for lieing on the police report as enough proof of ownership. This paticular PD seems to want to go above and beyond any standard proof as I see from my point of view. Thats ok with me as we are sharing as much proof as we have. I hope I can change this from a bad situation, to a learning situation and that all on this forum will welcome any tips I may come accross on how to record, identify, and how to prove the item is yours beyond a shadow of doubt.

To be honest, I am sure that there are many people here, like myself that just kept a log or record stating the particulars of each firearm they own, hoping that would be proof enough. I have never thought I would have to go back to wills, getting signed statements from several people, etc, to recover stolen property, esp after everything that has happened since the theft was discovered. It is just luck that this one inherited firearm, that we have all the documentation and knowledge on (with the exception of a receipt or 4473) has been the first to be recovered. I hope the others will be recovered soon so we all will sleep better. The other firearms that were stolen from my brother, were purchased by my brother within the last 20 years, and the 4473 will come back to my brother.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
November 29, 2008, 06:27 AM
Welcome to the site, mister_murphy. I apologize for the flippant question earlier about "Murphy's Law."

Again, welcome to the site!

conserv1
November 29, 2008, 11:50 AM
Only a fool would report a gun they sold as stolen. And only a fool would sell a gun without SOME type of written receipt to clear their name in the case of it being used in a crime after the sale.

Just my opinion of course.

Also, since the person who was caught with this gun is now staking a claim to it makes it difficult as the bad guys always seem to get more respect than their victims.

I hope you are able to get it back! Good Luck

mister_murphy
December 2, 2008, 09:59 PM
Hey everyone...

I just wanted to follow up and update everyone... The gun in question was returned to my brother yesterday. The police while polite to a point seemed to make the process as beaurocratic and tedious as they could. They are also persuing charges against people who had possession of it since it was stolen from my brother.

We had to provide a copy of grandparents will to prove it was inherited. We had to provide our list of serial numbers etc. Also I know 3 of our family had to write signed statements declaring the history and who the firearm actually was owned by, and who owned it and passed it along to my brother.

One comment made by the detective was interested, as I think he missed everything we provided him as evidence.... He said, "only buy brand new guns...used ones will get you in trouble." I guess he missed the part of it being inherited, hmm... :confused:

We were told that if they were able to have obtained a copy of the 4473 form where the gun was bought it would have made the process alot easier... Again, another lack of understanding. The gun was bought in the over 30 years ago from a local well known dealer, the feds only require the 4473 to be kept on record for 20 years, but they still would prefer to have a copy of it. I think this is pure lack of understanding by the local detective of the laws pertaining to dealer records. :confused:


I would like to thank those of you who sent me pvt msg's with their tips.

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