Does match grade 7.62x39 ammo exist?


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Caseless
November 26, 2008, 01:20 PM
I've been shooting my unissued Yugo M59/66 for a while and it's surprisingly accurate at 200 yards. However, Wolf ammo is not very consistent for a ten-shot string at such distance. Is there any commercial 7.62x39 match ammo?

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SSN Vet
November 26, 2008, 01:27 PM
yup!

It's manufactured in my basement :cool:

Evenflo76
November 26, 2008, 01:28 PM
I did some tests with my Yugo. While not shooting any "match" ammo, I did use Brass cased Fiocchi in it. This was much more consistent and the groups tightened up significantly.

I'm not sure about availabilty of high end 7.62x39, but you can reload it.

WardenWolf
November 26, 2008, 01:38 PM
First, I'd like to comment that 7.62x39 is not match-grade by nature. It has very poor ballistic properties. While you may be able to get handloads or match-grade rounds to shoot better than OTHER 7.62x39 rounds, it's not going to compare to other common calibers. Effectively, you'll wind up with a better 7.62x39 round, but it will still be a 7.62x39 round.

HorseSoldier
November 26, 2008, 01:50 PM
It's not match grade, but Lapua 7.62x39 is made with much higher quality control than Wolf and other Russian stuff.

R.W.Dale
November 26, 2008, 01:54 PM
First, I'd like to comment that 7.62x39 is not match-grade by nature. It has very poor ballistic properties. While you may be able to get handloads or match-grade rounds to shoot better than OTHER 7.62x39 rounds, it's not going to compare to other common calibers. Effectively, you'll wind up with a better 7.62x39 round, but it will still be a 7.62x39 round.

I disagree, The shape of the case and what's stamped on the casehead have vuritually NOTHING to do with the end result of how accurate your rifle is. Ammo quality and constancy and rifle are 99.8% of your accuracy equation.

In a quality platform shootin ammo built for accuracy 7.62x39mm is every bit as accurate as any other cartridge you care to name. I have a purpose built 7.62x39mm bench gun that will hold 5shot groups within 0.35 MOA all the way out to 300m if I do my part. My better 100yd groups are well under .3 MOA. Granted this isn't shooting factory ammo but it's still 7.62x39 loaded on factory cases using unmodified dies.

But to say that 7.62x39 can't be accurate because...um...well... it's 7.62x39 is patently false.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/Stevens%20200/HPIM2118.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/Stevens%20200/HPIM1966-1.jpg

blkbrd666
November 26, 2008, 01:54 PM
Has anyone tried the Winchester white box from Walmart?...or does everyone shun them because they don't care about our rights?

R.W.Dale
November 26, 2008, 01:58 PM
Has anyone tried the Winchester white box from Walmart?...or does everyone shun them because they don't care about our rights?

I have yet to shoot any big three (rem,win,fed) 7.62x39 ammo that's any more accurate than steel cased fodder, plus the american stuff is underloaded to boot.

jackdanson
November 26, 2008, 01:58 PM
I disagree, The shape of the case and what's stamped on the casehead have vuritually NOTHING to do with the end result of how accurate your rifle is. Ammo quality and constancy and rifle are 99.8% of your accuracy equation.

In a quality platform shootin ammo built for accuracy 7.62x39mm is every bit as accurate as any other cartridge you care to name. I have a purpose built 7.62x39mm bench gun that will hold 5shot groups within 0.35 MOA all the way out to 300m if I do my part. My better 100yd groups are well under .3 MOA. Granted this isn't shooting factory ammo but it's still 7.62x39 loaded on factory cases using unmodified dies.

But to say that 7.62x39 can't be accurate because...um...well... it's 7.62x39 is patently false.

+1. Hey krochus, what are you shooting that out of? A cz of some type I'm guessing?

KBintheSLC
November 26, 2008, 01:58 PM
I have had great accuracy results with American made hunting loads like Federal and Winchester 124g JSP. Also, I would try Brown Bear or Silver Bear if you want cheap Russian ammo. They are made at Barnaul and are of higher quality that Wolf. I have no trouble hitting a 7" steel target at 400 yards with 125g Brown Bear JSP out of my scoped Yugo.

First, I'd like to comment that 7.62x39 is not match-grade by nature. It has very poor ballistic properties. While you may be able to get handloads or match-grade rounds to shoot better than OTHER 7.62x39 rounds, it's not going to compare to other common calibers. Effectively, you'll wind up with a better 7.62x39 round, but it will still be a 7.62x39 round.

I whole-heartedly disagree with the comments above. They appear bias and baseless. There is nothing wrong with the "ballistic properties" of the 39R.

R.W.Dale
November 26, 2008, 02:05 PM
+1. Hey krochus, what are you shooting that out of? A cz of some type I'm guessing?

NO even my cz527 didn't offer the level of accuracy I was looking for (1 to 1.5moa) So I took things to a whole nother level.

I built rifle based on a stevens200 action using a 1/15 twist 26" shilen match bull barrel, a leupold 36x scope and a choate stock.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/HPIM1990.jpg

Evenflo76
November 26, 2008, 02:05 PM
Has anyone tried the Winchester white box from Walmart?...or does everyone shun them because they don't care about our rights?

I would have, but this caliber seemed to be the exception to the rule. Usually Wal-Mart has good prices. But, my range had Fiocchi 7.62x39 for a much lower price than Wally Worlds WWB.

I buy pistol ammo there too. ( Wal-Mart )

I don't buy in to that anti- Wal Mart crap. Elitist BS as far as I'm concerned.

kcmarine
November 26, 2008, 02:19 PM
The problem with the Big Three ammo is that American companies often load the 7.62x39mm with .308 caliber projectiles. This will serve fine in a Mini-30, but the rifles that we receive from the former Soviet Union (Saigas, SKS, AK part kits, VEPRs, CZ-58) have a bore diameter of approximately .311. Needless to say, that disparity in bore diameter vs. projectile diameter will make accuracy suffer. That's why the Wolf/ Barnaul ammo we see often outshoots the stuff you buy at Walmart.

R.W.Dale
November 26, 2008, 02:26 PM
The problem with the Big Three ammo is that American companies often load the 7.62x39mm with .308 caliber projectiles

this is an oft repeated MYTH, American manufacturers load x39 using the proper .310 bullet diameter. Don't believe me? You can even buy the component bullets

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=195939
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=405727

This will serve fine in a Mini-30,

actually only the very first run of mini 30's had .308 bores, the vast bulk of ruger mini 30 rifles made since the mid 90's have all had the proper bbl spec

Needless to say, that disparity in bore diameter vs. projectile diameter will make accuracy suffer.

My tests show that accuracy may not suffer at all. of course YMMV

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=2274479#post2274479

BHP FAN
November 26, 2008, 02:43 PM
Krochus,you're being a bit abrasive aren't you?OK,I'm sorry,but it was funny...seriously the Germans used the STG 44 as a sniper rifle towards the end of the war,even though it was meant as an assault weapon.The 8mm modified ''kurtz'' ammo is what the 7.62x39 was copied from,and there's no reason it can't be just as accurate as the parent cartridge.It's the platform that counts,much more than the caliber.I had a very accurate Marlin model 60,I tricked it out with all the bolt on ''tactical'' stuff I could find,including the ''Draganov'' stock, and now it looks mondo cool.it's also not as accurate. Bedding ,pressure points on the barrel,there's a LOT of things that go into accuracy other than just the caliber of the gun.

GD
November 26, 2008, 03:01 PM
I have some Soviet 7.62x39 ammo that I got about 10 years ago that is marked match on the box and the casing. Not sure where I got it from.

benEzra
November 26, 2008, 03:08 PM
Lapua 7.62x39mm was darn good stuff. I bought a couple boxes back in the 1990's and now wish I'd bought a case of it.

Does anyone know if it's imported anymore?

Has anyone tried the Winchester white box from Walmart?
My main concern about American-made 7.62x39mm is the possibility that American-style softer primers might be used, potentially increasing the risk of slamfires in a rifle not designed for soft-primered ammunition. Eastern bloc primers were/are quite hard.

MD_Willington
November 26, 2008, 08:03 PM
I've used the white box in a Russian SKS, no slamfires for me.. not sure on accuracy though, I was shooting milk jugs filled with water at 200 feet and they went all explody on me...

jpwilly
November 26, 2008, 09:42 PM
The best results will be rolling your own and finding what YOUR rifle will shoot best. Bullet selection is important. Slug your bbl and mould your chamber. You may need custom dies to make cases your rifle will shoot best.

The reason most people don't think the 7.62x39mm is accurate is because most of the Com Block rifles that shoot it aren't by nature the most accurate rifles.

Your SKS may well be one of the more accurate and it may spur you into wanting better ammo. Most commercial brass case ammo will be far better than the Wolf Etc that we shoot but still far from perfect.

Good Luck.

Guitargod1985
November 26, 2008, 09:49 PM
.....

wacki
November 27, 2008, 12:22 AM
Slug your bbl and mould your chamber. You may need custom dies to make cases your rifle will shoot best.


I'm buying a bullet swagger. I understand things need to fit properly but I'm not sure I'm up to speed with your gun lingo. Care to explain?

R.W.Dale
November 27, 2008, 01:13 AM
I don't think It would be a very good bang for your buck ordering up a $200 set of custom reloading dies for a $175 SKS

Caseless, if you want to wring the most accuracy possible out of your SKS I suggest ordering a Tech/Sight. http://www.tech-sights.com/sks.htm

These things are AMAZING! The one I had easily shrunk my YUGO's groupings in HALF, literally the best SKS accessory yet devised by mankind

jpwilly
November 27, 2008, 01:24 AM
krochus, I don't think spending $200 on dies is a good investment either...

Caseless, Slugging the bbl would be a good idea and very cost effective. If your a reloader you could Fire form some brass (shooting some factory brass case ammo) and then neck size would provide the proper cases for your SKS chamber without any custom dies (fire formed brass aligns the bullet more with the center of the bore). Then you'll need to find the proper seating depth off the lands for max accuracy (take an unprimed empty case seat bullet long load into rifle measure CAL then back off .030-.010 they also sell tools that make this measurment simple) etc etc. Of course this along with finding the primer, powder, bullet diet your rifle likes to digest. You may get lucky and make big improvments right away. You may see little improvement at all! The first thing I'd do with the SKS is a trigger job!

EdLaver
November 28, 2008, 02:40 AM
Yes match grade premium 7.62x39 exists, expensive but it does exist. Made by Double Tap:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=265&osCsid=ba36aa59514f362b043eb1ce896b7e6d

ar10
November 28, 2008, 07:02 AM
Best combo I found is Lupa 123gr FMJ. 24.3 gr RE-7, WRL primers, at 100, 200, 300yd. Brass was FC, RP and LC. I tried 3 different powders, H322, AA1680, and RE-7, the RE was the best.
Match grade does exist. I just wish they would come out a 123~125 gr BTHP in .311.
BTW. I think krochus did the test with the 7.62x39 a few months ago. If it was thanks. It's a very good starting point.

briang2ad
November 28, 2008, 07:13 AM
Anyone here ever combine decent loads WITH the Techsight and get decent groups from an SKS. Many years ago, at 75 yards, I was at a range shooting my SKS Paratrooper, and the guy next to me was shooting a new Win 74. I was doing better than he was with my Chinese ammo (original sights) and $116 rifle. Haven't shot it lately, but...

mainmech48
November 28, 2008, 12:15 PM
Prior to the ban on Chinese firearms and ammo imports Norinco sold at least a couple of 7.62x39 loads under a "Match" label.

The most commonly encountered example came in a silver-colored box. IIRC, the steel cases could be either lacquered or copper-washed.

While I seriously doubt that anyone could get consistant groups from an SKS even comparable to those obtained by Krocus's custom BA with any ammo, these Norinco loads have given me significantly smaller groups in both of my remaining SKS carbines and my Ruger Mini-30 than any commercial FMJ ammo I've yet encountered.

Chronograph data shows much more consistent ballistics for velocity, extreme spread and SD, so there must be some basis for the use of the term "Match" as far as manufacturing goes. How it was accomplished, I have no concrete info upon which to comment.

All I can say with a proven degree of certainty is that it delivers average groupings with enough difference to make a real improvement in one's score, at least in semi-formal club "Matches".

Al Thompson
November 28, 2008, 12:24 PM
Winchester JSPs and a TechSight gave me inch or so groups at 60 yards from a Norinco SKS.

R.W.Dale
November 28, 2008, 04:07 PM
Watch out for my next thread where I cooked up a ton of chronograph data on various bbl lengths. I even did some accuracy testing with factory loads in my bench gun

briang2ad
November 28, 2008, 04:14 PM
Winchester JSPs and a TechSight gave me inch or so groups at 60 yards from a Norinco SKS.

Thanks Al - just wondering about my almost 50ish eyes - maybe the scout mount with a LER Scope is better for me... Hmmm. (But would cost about 3 X).

Caseless
December 1, 2008, 06:09 PM
Caseless, if you want to wring the most accuracy possible out of your SKS I suggest ordering a Tech/Sight. http://www.tech-sights.com/sks.htm

krochus, you're absolutely correct about the benefits of Techsight. I have both the rear sight and thin front blade setup. Here's the result of a ten-shot string at 200 yards using Wolf 123gr HP (The shots to the left are initial sight-ins). Aside from the requisite two flyers to the right, most landed in the 10-ring.
http://www.gpspassion.com/upload2/\M66 200Yds 03-08-08_1145.jpg

I haven't seen any Lapua surplus ammo at my local gun & beef jerky shows. So I'll go with EdLaver's excellent suggestion on Double Tap ammo.

cracked butt
December 1, 2008, 10:30 PM
his will serve fine in a Mini-30, but the rifles that we receive from the former Soviet Union (Saigas, SKS, AK part kits, VEPRs, CZ-58) have a bore diameter of approximately .311. Needless to say, that disparity in bore diameter vs. projectile diameter will make accuracy suffer.

The quality of the firearm, the quality of its barrel, the quality of its bedding are much more important than the groove diameter. Saying that cheaply made COMBLOC weapons are inaccurate because of their oversized groove diameter is like saying the Rooster crowing is responsible for the sun rising every morning.

Swedish mausers have a well earned reputation for accuracy. I've never slugged a barrel on one that had a groove measurement less than .265"- My M41B swede has a groove measurement of .266" and the accuracy is amazing with .264" jacket bullets. My 8mm mausers and my 03A3 also have oversized grooves, yet shoot....

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