The Sun Never Sets on the Lee-Enfield! (Mumbai Attacks)


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.455_Hunter
November 26, 2008, 11:25 PM
If you look closely at the pictures coming out of Mumbai, you will see many police units carrying either No. 1, Mk. III or No 4 Lee-Enfields in .303. I have not seen any Ishapore 7.62s, which surprises me somewhat. Why would you keep the .303s, but sell the 7.62s (which share ammo with the FALs) to the USA as surplus?

Maybe the grand old .303 British round is going to be responsible for dropping a few more terrorists! One can only hope.

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N003k
November 26, 2008, 11:29 PM
I actually noticed that as well, was a bit surprised, figured by now they would have found some replacement, but hey, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Jeff F
November 27, 2008, 12:29 AM
If it ain't broke,

jpwilly
November 27, 2008, 01:22 AM
The best MBR Boltgun of course! Love my "US PROPERTY" Savage!

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p38/jpwilly/Enfield2BNo42BMK12B003.jpg

Threeband
November 27, 2008, 01:31 AM
Definately not broke!

paintballdude902
November 27, 2008, 01:39 AM
wood for them keeping with something they trust and not feeeling they must keep up with the times

i heard like 12 terrorist dead and 9 captured good

RX-178
November 27, 2008, 01:49 AM
It makes me wonder if .303 ammo might still be cheaper to manufacture over there than 7.62x51?

Golden Hound
November 27, 2008, 03:03 AM
I don't know, but doesn't their ammo have a reputation as being really horrible? Dirty and prone to misfires and hangfires? Why is this so? In this day and age you'd think they could at the very least perfect THAT.

HorseSoldier
November 27, 2008, 04:30 AM
It makes me wonder if .303 ammo might still be cheaper to manufacture over there than 7.62x51?

Seems kind of like a long shot -- the Indian military used the FAL and MAG machine gun as their standard weapons for decades. The economics of new production .303 ammo just for law enforcement alongside mountains of .308 for the military just couldn't be cheaper.

It being India, and the weapons being in the hands of non-paramilitary Indian police it might be possible they're still shooting up supplies of .303 ammo left over from the 1940s-60s. If they haven't bothered to upgrade police weapons in fifty years, I can't think there's going to be a heavy emphasis small arms training.

Less likely, but they may issue .303 bolt guns specifically because it's an off caliber -- rioters, terrorists, or criminals storming a police station or overpowering officers out on patrol can grab police weapons but then face an immediate logistical bottleneck. If I remember right, back in the colonial days, the British issued some of their police shotguns using a proprietary ammunition that was only available through police supply channels for the same reason -- angry mobs (or if the indigenous police officers went over to the rioters) would have trouble feeding any weapons they captured.

woodybrighton
November 27, 2008, 06:46 AM
Pakistani ammo was notoriously crap the MOD brought a load that was shockingly bad it was withdrawn from use and flogged off to the states sorry:uhoh:
Brady approved ammo:D would'nt fire or was so low powered rounds stuck in targets at 100 metres:eek:
Think its 2nd line police get .303's the Indian forces probably have thousands in stock same with ammo

Pilot
November 27, 2008, 07:08 AM
The Enfield was the AK of the world before the AK existed. Great rifle.

Afy
November 27, 2008, 09:31 AM
Well bot .303 and .308 ammo is available only through police/military channels.

The police weapons havent really been upgraded in years, and they use a mix of 7.62 and .303. Some units have begun recieving the FAL as the military moves to INSAS or AK's.
The ammo made for the police and civil markets is junk.

Onmilo
November 27, 2008, 10:46 AM
Look closely at the magazines on those Lee Enfield rifles.
The ones I saw were all very square in appearance which is an indicator that the rifles are Indian produced copies of the Lee rifle in 7.62X51 caliber.

I also noticed the Special Response troops were armed with Insas 5.56 Indian made assault rifles.
These rifles are a opy of the Israeli Galil rifle.

EdLaver
November 27, 2008, 11:32 AM
Alot of them had Fal type rifles too. I laughed a bit when I saw the Enfields, its hard to believe that they are still a worthy tool used by police forces in the world. Like you all said, "If its not broke then don't fix it!"

onebigelf
November 27, 2008, 12:59 PM
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p38/jpwilly/Enfield2BNo42BMK12B003.jpg

OK, that's gorgeous!

John

KINGMAX
November 27, 2008, 01:10 PM
The SMLE, one of the best bolt action battle rifles, fast-firing, powerful and reliable. :fire::fire::fire::fire::fire::fire::fire::fire::fire::fire:

Jenrick
November 27, 2008, 01:14 PM
I bought some Indian surplus .303 last year, shot good, not to dirty, reliable. $8 for 32 rounds :)

-Jenrick

cameraclickingfool
November 28, 2008, 01:03 PM
A friend of mine, who is a native Indian, told me that the police still use the Mk III Enfield in both 7.62 and .303.

IMHO, one of the best rifles ever made.

armoredman
November 28, 2008, 01:52 PM
jpwilly, the wood on yours is awesome.

Browning
November 28, 2008, 01:55 PM
The Lee Enfield is and was a great rifle, especially for its day. However can you imagine being armed with a Lee-Enfield and getting into a gunfight at less that 50 yards with multiple select fire AKM armed terrorists though? I'd feel a tad less equipped (although that feeling would be reversed if the range was longer).

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00440/Mumbai__07_440466a.jpg

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=88369&d=1227898506

In other words trying to engage guys armed with AK's while being armed with an Enfield has really gotta suck. Something tells me in that case I'd much rather have an FAL or just about anything other than a manually operated bolt action rifle.

Float Pilot
November 28, 2008, 03:14 PM
I saw one short video clip of three guys running into a hallway carrying 7.62mm Enfields. I noted those three guys because they were carrying their rifles at the shoulder ready and were advancing while everyone around them was taking cover.

Nice for punching through sheet rock,ice machines, flak vests and most any cover the bad guys are likey to find inside a huge hotel.
Not to mention the accuracy while shooting down a couple hundred feet of dim hallway.
AND
Much better for head shots when the bad guys have hostages in front of them.

James T Thomas
November 28, 2008, 03:34 PM
I think Float Pilot recognizes a good thing when he sees it.
I think too, that I would not feel undergunned at all facing those cowards, especially with such a gun.

And especially with some loyal and tough troops who are similarly armed.
Maybe men from Nepal.

Though my personal preference would be any born in the USA, American GI's.

Take that situation, and arm them with the M1 Garand or even the M14, and
see who has the terror.

Float Pilot
November 28, 2008, 05:29 PM
Looks like Shiva gave these terrorist a four armed butt whompin

nathan
November 28, 2008, 05:33 PM
Would be nice to have those INSAS 5.56 imported in civilian version.

mljdeckard
November 28, 2008, 05:34 PM
As great as it is, I can also see the cops/soldiers using these photos in front of whomever is responsible for procuring their weapons saying; "NOW do you believe we need newer rifles?!"

Pulse
November 28, 2008, 05:46 PM
i seen plenty of SIG550 and 551 used once the special forces went in.
while the SMLE and FAL are nice rifles, they do have modern and more appropriate equipment at hands.

TomcatPC
November 28, 2008, 11:02 PM
I have two Lee-Enfield Rifles, one is a 1940 Birmingham Small Arms made No.1 Mk.III, and the other is a 1942 Savage made No.4 Mk.I*, I really like both of them. I have every intention of buying more as times goes by, hopefully I can get a Magazine Lee Metford or Magazine Lee Enfield version one day. I have very little negative to say about the Lee-Enfield Rifle (any variant). If it still works...

The L1A1 SLR rifles (I think the original was called the FN-FAL?, I know extremely little about them) the Indians also use, are they made in India?, like the Lee-Enfield was made by Rifle Factory Ishapore?
Thanks
Mark

HorseSoldier
November 29, 2008, 12:02 AM
The L1A1 SLR rifles (I think the original was called the FN-FAL?, I know extremely little about them) the Indians also use, are they made in India?, like the Lee-Enfield was made by Rifle Factory Ishapore?

Yep, they're made in India. If I'm not mistaken, the Indian FAL was actually an unlicensed copy and mixed features of the original metric FAL and the British/Commonwealth L1A1 inch pattern rifles.

2RCO
November 29, 2008, 12:14 AM
The SMLE is/was a great gun but seeing it still in use circa 2008 is a wakeup. This was the first thing I noticed in the footage of the attacks I saw. I gues however it's not much different than some of the small town LEO's who still carry model 94 winchesters in the trunks of their cruisers.

cracked butt
November 29, 2008, 12:50 AM
I'm betting the LEOs that responded to the North Hollywood robbery would have loved to have some SMLEs handy when they went up against similarly armed criminals.

Ignition Override
November 29, 2008, 01:19 AM
Were the Indians planning to use the FALs and LEs inside hotels if necessary?

Wouldn't the FALs be awkward to maneuver inside most buildings compared to an AR or G-3, or the terrorists' AKs?
Maybe the Indian army can't affort to replace these.

Is it ironic that the Indian Air Force operated lots of Soviet aircraft over the years., i.e. the Mig 21, 23 and 27, SU-30 plus IL-76/78...
( and a mix of French Mirage, Franco-British Jaguars, among others)?
Naval Air: Tu-142, IL-38 etc.
Many Soviet-built helicopters were in the Army.

Do their local army units have few or no AKs?

HorseSoldier
November 29, 2008, 01:26 AM
Maybe the Indian army can't affort to replace these.

Indian army switched to other weapons decades ago -- the guys using them now are police. I'm not sure if they're still in service because the Indian government couldn't afford to replace them, or if the government didn't want to issue more modern/military type weapons to law enforcement.

Jenrick
November 29, 2008, 04:19 AM
An FAL or an SMLE is going to be no less awkward then a fullsize Remington 870. Plus you've got a lot more rounds on tap, that have a much longer range. If I had to grab just one long arm out of my personal stash, I'd grab my work AR as it's setup for things like this already.

I'd certainly take an FAL over an SMLE also just to have more rounds on tap if nothing else. On the other hand I'd take my SMLE over my squad cars 870 any day of the week. A .303 soft point is going to blow through soft body armor and put a big hole in someone even a couple hundred yards away. I can run the action faster then I can my 870, and I've got 4 more rounds on tap. Oh an I can fix a fricking huge bayonet on it if I need too :) The SMLE was designed as a fighting rifle. The 870 is a sporting shotgun that is often used in fights.

-Jenrick

yokel
November 29, 2008, 05:23 AM
Although we live in an age of increasingly sophisticated and complex weapons systems there is still a real need for delivering discriminatory, highly accurate rifle fire against enemy targets, which cannot be engaged successfully by the average Security Forces member because of range, size, location, fleeting nature, or visability.

Assuming the police are thoroughly trained and proficient with an Enfield, they could certainly cramp a jihadist's style.

To lay down effective volley fire would the effort of the Rifle Group as a whole.

woodybrighton
November 29, 2008, 05:57 AM
From what I've seen a lot of Indian police get a enfield or SLR as a carry weapon rather than a Handgun.
They have a huge army so plenty of hand me downs there not riding around in cars so not a problem about carrying. anyone will shoot a rifle better than a handgun and they intimidate

RX-178
November 29, 2008, 06:18 AM
I don't know about those INSAS rifles. I mean, a semi sporter version would be pretty cool. But as for the actual assault rifle?

Something about an AK with 3 round burst makes me go 'eeeeh...'.

Blacksmoke
November 29, 2008, 09:53 AM
I'm betting the LEOs that responded to the North Hollywood robbery would have loved to have some SMLEs handy when they went up against similarly armed criminals.
-crackedbutt

I was hunkered down in my Landcruiser across the street from that incident (Sears parking lot). All I could think about at the time was "why did I leave my Garand at home?

One or two well placed shots would have ended that fiasco. Your post also reminded me of a small town LEO in northern California back in the early 1970s. He used to carry his Johnson autoloading rifle in the trunk of the police car he drove. At the time, I thought he was some kind of nut. Who would guessed he was ahead of his time?

cameraclickingfool
November 29, 2008, 01:31 PM
Granted the Enfield would not be the best weapon to storm a building with and fight close quarters. However, it is adequate if used by a trained shooter posted behind cover outside a surrounded building. If one of the terrorist had stuck his head out of a window or tried to flee the building, he would be SOL.

Blacksmoke
November 29, 2008, 01:42 PM
From the footage shown on TV it appeared that many of the police armed with Enfields were a good distance from the buildings. Had the perps emerged from the hotels with AKs blazing the large number of Indian police with Enfields and army with FNs would have sent a blizzard downrange matching the firepower of the AKs on full auto. Too bad that did not happen for the TV crews :evil:.

NC-Mike
November 29, 2008, 06:47 PM
It would seem the Indian police are completely inept and I would also include their choice of weapons in that judgment.

The entire carnage was perpetrated by ten men...

This thing should have been over 1 hour after the first shots were fired.

cameraclickingfool
November 29, 2008, 08:34 PM
NC Mike,

It is easy to "arm chair quarterback."

Consider the following:

The terrorist had the element of surprise.
They were well trained, and armed.
They had a plan / purpose and knew where they were going.
They took hostages.
The police / military had no idea what and how many they were dealing with.
The terrorist were in buildings, some with many rooms. The good guys had a lot of ground to cover.

The objective of a situation like this is to neutralize the enemy and and the same time minimize innocent casualities.

I applaud the bravery of police / military. They also suffered casualities.

rbernie
November 29, 2008, 09:12 PM
From the footage shown on TV it appeared that many of the police armed with Enfields were a good distance from the buildings. The Enfield 2A's have been 'home guard' weapons (designed for drill and presence, mostly) since the Indians started making them. They were subordinate to the FAL, and then to the INSAS. As far as I know, no regular/non-reserve military unit in India carries the Enfield.

The point is that when you see an Indian military presence armed with Enfields, understand that you are not looking at their front-line troops, much less their SpecOps types.

Frankly, having had many Enfield 2A's - they're not cut from the same cloth as the 'real' SMLE, much less the No4 or No5.

mr.trooper
November 29, 2008, 09:37 PM
NEW brass cased 303 is STILL significantly cheaper than 308. the only 308 that compares price wise to Privi / Barnaul 303 is Steel cased brown bear. Ick.

Additionally, FMJ 303 is far more deadly than FMJ 308. The 303 will have either an aluminum or wooden core tip underneath the jacket. This has the same effect as the air pocket found in 5.45 ammunition, causing the bullet to tumble and yaw dramatically on impact. The 308 will have a single piece lead or steal core, boring a single large hole, causing secondary damage due to energy transfer.

With training, the Enfield is capable of aimed fire at the same rate as a semi-automatic. Additionally, I MUCH prefer the No4 to the original SMLE; it sights are far better, and its take down devices for cleaning are much simpler to manipulate.

You would certainly have to adapt your tactics if you were taking on baddies with full autos, but it should theoretically be doable.

Blacksmoke
November 29, 2008, 10:03 PM
I may be wrong but the "troops" armed with the SMLE were policemen not army.

NC-Mike
November 29, 2008, 10:03 PM
NC Mike,

It is easy to "arm chair quarterback."

Consider the following:

The terrorist had the element of surprise.
They were well trained, and armed.
They had a plan / purpose and knew where they were going.
They took hostages.
The police / military had no idea what and how many they were dealing with.
The terrorist were in buildings, some with many rooms. The good guys had a lot of ground to cover.

The objective of a situation like this is to neutralize the enemy and and the same time minimize innocent casualities.

I applaud the bravery of police / military. They also suffered casualities.

Time for new rules.

Canada I believe has already adopted a rapid response. From this incident which lasted three days? to Virginia Tech, the people calling the shots have to go in hard and fast and not allow time for slaughter to take place. Think it would have went down the same way in in say Tel Aviv?

This is a new game and its only a matter of time till it happens here. It also clearly demonstrates that right now, you are on your own in if happen to be in a building with armed and hostile actors.

I'm in no way impugning the bravery of those on the ground but I am certainly questioning the strategy and tactics of those that called the shots. They probably slaughtered close to 300 people. The plan was to kill 5,000.

There were ten trained men. Imagine that. Just look at what 10 trained men with death wishes and automatic firearms can do. This was no job for police, this called for a military response and a damn fast one. We had better get used to this kind of thing happening and better be prepared to deal with it. Fast.

HorseSoldier
November 29, 2008, 10:14 PM
NEW brass cased 303 is STILL significantly cheaper than 308. the only 308 that compares price wise to Privi / Barnaul 303 is Steel cased brown bear. Ick.

For retail this may be true.

If you're a government buying training and go to war loads of ammunition for MAG machineguns and various other 7.62x51 weapons, but don't have anyone using .303 except for police who don't do much firearms training or usage, you're probably losing an an economies of scale kind of thing.

With training, the Enfield is capable of aimed fire at the same rate as a semi-automatic. Additionally, I MUCH prefer the No4 to the original SMLE; it sights are far better, and its take down devices for cleaning are much simpler to manipulate.

I can believe that from a prone at distant targets, but at typical combat ranges, especially urban fight ranges and shooting conditions, the advantage is going to be decisively on the side of the autoloader.

You would certainly have to adapt your tactics if you were taking on baddies with full autos, but it should theoretically be doable.

I think that in the current incident, the guys who were issued Lee-Enfields were not a very high priority for firearms or tactical training. With much better training they might have been at less of a disadvantage going head to head with assault rifles, but if they're worth enough to train well, they're going to be worth providing better weapons to as well.

mr.trooper
November 29, 2008, 10:28 PM
True. I don't pretend the Enfield is still the end-all of battle field weaponry. I'm just pointing out that it IS still a capable weapon.

It should be pointed out that Enfield "volley fire" can be used on the move, at typical engagement ranges (it was done quite often with great effect). It is not limited to stationary prone positions, at fixed targets.

cameraclickingfool
November 30, 2008, 06:24 AM
NC Mike,

I agree that we will in all probability face a similar situation. I won't be surprised if it is in the near future.

America's best defense is the armed citizen. If terrorist would pull a similar stunt in the states, it would be important to have armed indivituals in the vicinity with CWP's who could quickly take them out.

This is the tactic Israel adopted I believe in the 1970's. If a terrorist tries to pull something in public, he will quickly look like a piece of swiss cheese.

A woman Jewish co-worker once told me that while living in Israel that she carried a pistol in her purse at all times.

As Oliver Cromwell said during the English Civil war of the 1640's,
"Put your trust in the Lord and keep your powder dry."

armoredman
December 1, 2008, 02:05 AM
Question...did anyone see the police officers with Enfields carrying any spare ammo? I didn't notice any bandoliers/pouches or such - is it possible they were issued with 5-10 rounds on chargers, and that was it, which could explain some reluctance to engage.
Just a thought.

James T Thomas
December 1, 2008, 02:20 PM
This post bears no resemblance to any person ficticious or real, and is offered only in the spirit of contribution to the topic.

The times when I was down to a hand full of rounds, I did make every round count, but had no hesitation to engage what so ever.

Today, in quiet civilian life, I usually have only six or sometimes five rounds available for immediate response, and yet I will not even give it a moments consideration as to fight or not, for my own life or that of the defenseless.

I could, I suppose, arm myself with a firearm of far greater capacity, but my experience is that the ability to fire in defense beyond several rounds at a given moment is greatly over estimated. And I will not decide to act based on my ammunition store or capacity before reloading.

I'm confident in my skill and in my weapon, and if a terrorist, murderer, or felon forces me by their actions to take aim on them I will do my best to survive and eliminate the threat.

If I could somehow change my magical handgun in a moment to an Endfield with ten rounds in it, anywhere, in the "field" I would love it. No hesitation.

elmerfudd
December 1, 2008, 03:19 PM
So does this make the Lee Enfield the longest serving military rifle or is the Mosin Nagant still soldiering on somewhere as well? Or perhaps this doesn't even count as these were presumably police.

Hoppy590
December 1, 2008, 03:51 PM
So does this make the Lee Enfield the longest serving military rifle or is the Mosin Nagant still soldiering on somewhere as well?

Finland use/used a sniper rifle called the Tak or TK 85. its a modified Mosin, some on original 1890's receivers.

All of the major MBR's ( SMLE,MN,Mauser etc) are still in conflicts across the world. so it really depends on what your definition of "military" service is...

one mans patriot is another's terrorist. one mans army is anothers insurgency. and its always a "revolt" until you win. only then its a "revolution"

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