Have you ever felt "undergunned" while carrying?

[MikePGS]

Hello. I'm (still) debating as to whether get a M&P 9mm (full-size) or a small revolver (642 or SP101) for carrying. The other day my girlfriend, our four month old, and her friend and her friends young son were out and there was a man acting very odd, just hanging in front of an empty store. A few minutes later he was standing behind the car, hands in his pocket not really doing anything. Anyways he was just acting funny, not really doing anything but my thoughts turned to "I sure wish I had a gun on me in case he tries something", yet this time I also thought "What if there were six of them?" is this just because I don't carry period, or do people who actually carry ever think "I wish I had more gun"? The revolver would be much easier to carry, but its always nice to know you have 17(!) extra rounds on tap in case...god forbid... you need that many. Thoughts?

[Rob G]

I've never really worried too much about how many rounds my gun carried. I always go under the belief that if I'm quick and accurate then I won't need all that many. In your specific scenario:
"What if there were six of them?
I offer the following thought: If there really are six of them....RUN!!!! There's very little chance you will survive a gunfight against six armed assailants even if you're carrying an NFA AK w/ a fully loaded drum magazine attached.

You should carry the gun you are most comfortable with and that you can shoot well. If you feel like it doesn't hold enough bullets then an extra magazine, speedloader, etc. should be carried with you and you should practice fast reloading.

As for whether or not I wish for more gun...well... I always wish that I'll have my hands on a fully loaded AR, AK, FAL, etc. when the SHTF. But realistically I carry a compact 1911 that holds six rounds plus one in the pipe. I figure that's enough for me to get away and that works for me.

[Oro]

RobG has just given very sound analysis.

In a situation where I can't run, I carry a 2.5" barreled K frame S&W .357 magnum. It is small, concealable, and powerful. Six shots of .357 will end any dispute I can't run away from, or cover the people I need to. A pair of speed strips with reloads in my pocket takes care of the next dozen rounds if needed.

To be very direct, I have NEVER felt "undergunned" carrying six rounds of .357 and a dozen reloads. Never felt "undergunned" with that. And I don't think I ever would.

[calaverasslim]

+1 for Rob G. I have never felt undergunned. I carry either a Charter Arms Bulldog 3" or S&W N frame model 21, both 44 special, and always filled with Win. STHP's or the Speer GDHP's.

In the winter time, I swap over to the JSP's because of the coats etc. Here in S. Texas, we don't really wear heavy coats like up north, so even with HP's I will be ok.

[michiganfan]

Glock 19 -16 rounds in the gun and an extra 17 mag. Can't have too much ammo.

[MaterDei]

If it's something that I can conceal on my body then I feel undergunned. Still beats the heck out of being ungunned. :)

[almtiba]

I carry a Beretta 84, with 14 rounds of .380.
I feel angry and sad, because it's the "largest" and "most powerful" pistol caliber I can - by Brazilian laws - carry, but I don't feel undergunned.

Regards,

Andre Tiba - Brazil

[Prepster]

I personally can shoot a j-frame better than a Glock, so that would be my choice. I feel that having an ultra-high capacity gun is nice, but not required for the reasons Rob G mentioned.

My one question: If you're considering the full size M&P, why not look into a larger revolver as well? A medium frame S+W would be just as concealable, and they're available in much more powerful calibers. I like Rugers myself, but they tend to be chunky and harder to tote as they get larger.

[Treo]

CZ75B .40 S&W w/ a 12 round magazine and one reload. I’m good

[FoMoGo]

My normal carry is a S&W M 21 .44 special and 1 or 2 speedloaders... normally 1.
It isnt a Magnum, it doesnt hold 15 rounds... it is a 6 shot revolver they chucks a large heavier projectile at a moderate speed.
I never feel undergunned.
Ever.
The only way I would feel undergunned is if I were dropped into a combat situation. Then I would feel undergunned with ANY pistol/s.


Jim

[Ridgerunner665]

My officers size 1911 holds 7+1 rounds...and I carry 2 extra mags.

If 22 rounds of 45 acp won't end it...he'll darn sure know I've been there.

NO...I don't feel undergunned.

[LKB3rd]

I wouldn't bank on it, but I think that most any attacker would go into duck and run mode without worrying about what caliber they were being shot at with.
I saw a video of a large riot, with over 100 people fighting. Gun shots rang out, and the whole crowd stopped fighting and all ran away.

[Nimble1]

My "normal" carry is a Taurus PT145 with 11 rnds of 230 JHP. When I am carrying it I feel OK but sometimes due to clothing,etc I carry a P64 with 8 rnds of JHP's and I do feel a little naked.. I guess the solution is to just carry the 45 all the time..:)

[david_the_greek]

The issue with the running is that he was with others. What if you have kids/elderly with you? I'm pretty confident in the belief that if you dispatch one attacker with a good shot, the others would likely flee, however there are times when I wonder if the 5 shots I'm sporting would be enough if said perps didn't flee. If it was a "gun fight" and I had time and space to reload, fine. However it seems like these confrontations happen up close and personal.

Either way, I definitely feel better with my J-frame on me than my pocket knife (which I have no real training with anyways), and I definitely feel better with the 5 shot revolver that I'm more likely to carry than the hicap larger pistol. That said, I want a compact 1911 so bad! I definitely would not hesitate to carry a larger gun. At this point, the J-frame is paid for and is slightly more practical for me to carry.

[Gun Slinger]

Mike PGS,


Nope. Never.

I carry a Glock 17 and a couple of spare magazines having arrived at that arrangement years ago and I don't waste my time constantly debating and re-analyzing my decision. Pick what suits you and stick with it.

The caliber (assuming it to be an acceptable "service" caliber), ammunition, type and brand of the gun that you are carrying for the purpose of CCW/SD/HD are but a small part of the overall "equation" when it comes to defending/protecting "you and yours" and "me and mine".

Anyone who believes that the most important aspect of their "plan" should center upon their carry piece and the ammunition contained therein, is in need of a "very serious rethink" since the most important aspect of anyone's "plan" for survival should be that of the tactics that will be employed to first avoid, and if pressed, successfully resolve the inevitable threat(s) to ones' safety and welfare.

The most important and powerful tool that you possess lays smack dab between your ears and just behind your eyes and if you've successfully programmed it with the right "software" (training) you can avoid 99% of the trouble headed your way by remaining vigilant and listening to that voice in the back of your head that keeps saying, "Something just ain't right here" when the circumstances start to go "sideways".

Case in point:


You stated above:

The other day my girlfriend, our four month old, and her friend and her friends young son were out and there was a man acting very odd, just hanging in front of an empty store. A few minutes later he was standing behind the car, hands in his pocket not really doing anything. Anyways he was just acting funny, not really doing anything but my thoughts turned to "I sure wish I had a gun on me in case he tries something", yet this time I also thought "What if there were six of them?"....

You didn't need a gun to resolve this one. The simple and best answer, is that one or six of them, would be to leave the area and return at some other time if need be once the danger has departed. Sure it is inconvenient, but being dead is worse. You can always come back, death is permanent.

Wishing that you had a gun on you, "in case he tried something", tells me that you stayed well past the point of noticing the potential problem and resolving it by leaving. Even if you had a gun "on you", leaving would've still been the best way to resolve the concerns that you've expressed above. Why stick around waiting for trouble to catch up to you? Rather than exercising questionable judgement by standing there and wondering if the threat will materialize, leave. It is that simple.

So, choose your gun and ammunition, then get some professional, competent training. It'll be the best money you will ever spend.

[TAB]

Going up against 6 armed and determined people might as well be put the barrel in your mouth... you have a better chance of surving.

[MikePGS]

The issue with the running is that he was with others. What if you have kids/elderly with you?
Exactly. If I was by myself I'd run like the wind (A pretty slow wind, but still a moving one). I certainly don't entertain fantasies of getting into massive gun battles or anything like that, but the practical side of me says that its certainly possible (just last year there was a group of like 8 kids going around beating people up for no good reason, http://www.nationalterroralert.com/updates/2008/06/05/mob-of-up-to-30-men-suspected-in-several-attacks-detroit/ .

[MikePGS]

You didn't need a gun to resolve this one. The simple and best answer, is that one or six of them, would be to leave the area and return at some other time if need be once the danger has departed. Sure it is inconvenient, but being dead is worse. You can always come back, death is permanent.
I certainly will avoid any type of situation like that if possible, however people around this area (metro detroit) seem to be getting more aggresive and bold, probably due to the downslide of the local (and national) economy. I'm always going to do my best to avoid any dangerous type of situation, but in the off chance that I can't avoid it...

[cdiaz6000]

Glock 23 with 13 JHP's

-sometimes a spare mag with 13 more. if 26 rounds can't save me, nothing will.

I tried carrying a snubby and it just didn't work out. 5 shots, .38 +p and it was a BEAST to shoot... i have big hands so it just didn't work for me.

[wyocarp]

Going up against 6 armed and determined people might as well be put the barrel in your mouth... you have a better chance of surving.

This is crazy thinking in my opinion. I'd rather go up against six thuds with guns than one or two people that actually shoot and train regularly.

I remember a trial that I was involved in back in the 90's where police emptied their weapons on a young kid that had shot at them. There was a chase with an exchange of gunfire. The kids stopped and were going to get out and run. There were a dozen cops and hundreds of rounds fired when the kids stopped. I think there were under fifty rounds that hit the car and only a few actually hit the kid. Like, one in an arm and a few in the leg.

Personally, I think anyone who shoots and practices probably has a good chance. Keep your head. It isn't the first shot that makes a difference, it's the first best shot or two.

[Inspector]

If a situation ever arises where I am outgunned, then it was meant to be - whether I have a gun or not and whether I have five shots or 55 shots.

Thinking on it, I have to realize, should THAT ever occur, then God is taking me home to be with Him and some might say that my "time was up."

I would have to say it is HIS timing, not mine, or "our timing."

[DarkSoldier]

We all are pretty much on the same page with the fact that avoiding a fight is better than prevailing in one, so lets accept for the sake of the question asked that the situation cannot be avoided and you must resolve it.

I carry either a full size 1911 TRP and two spare 8 round mags or a six inch S&W model 29 with three speed loaders of JHP Speer Magnum defense loads. I aways carry a BUG, normally a second .45 or .44 mag. Yes, I always feel undergunned.

Whether you are a soldier in battle, a cop on the beat, or a lawfully armed American citizen, every situation in which you must fight for your life or the life of those for whom you are morally or lawfully responsible is a "combat situation". I want every advantage I can get in a gunfight and even the biggest and best handgun is already a poor choice, even if the opposition is armed only with a Raven .25 ACP. If they are better armed, the odds against you only get worse.

That said, however, I do not subscribe to the school of thought that, when faced with multiple armed attackers you cannot prevail. In that unlikely yet very possible circumstance, do your very best with all that you have with you, head, heart, equipment, and expect to win. If you must die, then die surprised.

Just my own philosophy, others may have a different view.

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier

[skoro]

If you're up against six armed opponents, your chances with any handgun are slim to none. Get behind some cover fast and hope you can discourage them from coming after you is probably your only chance. If that isn't possible, then you're target practice. :uhoh:

[Bubba613]

"Feeling undergunned" isn't much of a statement. Everyone's comfort level will be different and will vary at different times in different circumstances.
The truest thing I know is, the first rule of a gunfight is have a gun. A .22short is better than a set of keys in your hand.
As for "if there were 6 of them," if that's your situation then you're toast. So get over it. EIther you will shoot one or two and the others will scatter or they will come after you with a vengeance. Choice of weapon wont make much difference either way.

[loneviking]

Most thugs don't know how to shoot accurately. There was an amazing video some time back on Youtube in which an armed robber enters a convenience store with a 9mm and about 15 rounds in the magazine. The clerk is taking care of a rather rotund lady at the counter.

BG pulls his gun and demands money. Clerk pulls his gun (also a 15 rd. 9mm) and they start banging away at each other as the BG backs out of the store. Right through the middle of this hail of lead strolls this rotund lady, who exits the store and disappears!! 30 rounds exchanged and NOBODY got hit!

I carry a .357 and sometimes worry a bit, but I know my accuracy is better than that. I train with the local IDPA club on a regular basis. I usually have four speedloaders, all loaded with 145 or 156 gr. Silvertips. Yes, I'd be worried, but I figure I have a pretty good chance of making it out wounded but alive.

[Inspector]

You could go around with an AR with ten 30-round magazines and under certain circumstances you may still "feel" outgunned.

[Gun Slinger]

I certainly will avoid any type of situation like that if possible, however people around this area (metro detroit) seem to be getting more aggresive and bold, probably due to the downslide of the local (and national) economy. I'm always going to do my best to avoid any dangerous type of situation, but in the off chance that I can't avoid it...

Mikey-

I am all too familiar with the greater Metro Detroit Area (I live in N.W. Ohio) and even though I can carry in Detroit (under LEOSA2004) I still refuse to go there because the environment there is quite hostile and has been for quite some time. There was a time when I might have considered following I-75 through the city however, with the current massive construction and detours that require leaving the Interstate System, I defer the use of the inner city surface streets as an alternate route in preference to following 23N then crossing eastward, if need be, along I-96 or I-94 to get where I need to go. Although it is somewhat extreme and costs a little more in terms of fuel and time, my safety, health and happiness is worth every penny of it.

Haven't been through Detroit for well over a year now and it was bad when I was last through the city while in the line of duty (an extradition trip) almost two years prior to that. I can't imagine what it must be like now that the economy has slipped into the near depression that it has, but I don't see myself ever returning in light of what you have said above.

While it is impossible to guarantee that you will not find yourself backed into the proverbial "corner", adequate vigilance and an eye towards staying clear of the "trouble spots" in the first place (unless you are absolutely compelled to go there) goes a very, very long way towards, reducing the chance that you will get into such a predicament.

I agree with what DarkSoldier says with regard to engaging multiple attackers. While the odds of survival are much reduced, they are not zero either and if you are determined to do what you need to do to get out alive then it is entirely possible. The likelihood of serious injury is also present and greatly increased but, the alternative- "giving up", virtually guarantees your demise as well as that of those whom you may be trying to protect and as such is just not acceptable in my opinion. In such an unlikely "worst case scenario", they may ultimately "get me", but not until I have made every effort to make it cost them quite dearly in terms of the loss of life, pain and blood.

[KINGMAX]

I always carry extra ammo: GLOCK 21 w/ 4 mags = 3 w/ 13 rounds and 1 w/ 10 rounds, adds up to 49 ready to go. My S&W 686 loaded w/ 5 and 3 speed loaders w/ 6 each adds up to 23 ready to go, plus I always have an open box of 38 +P's in the truck. :what: I commute through DURHAM NC :evil:to get to work, enough said !!!!!!!

[anythingshiny]

HAHAH..i travel thru dur-hate nc too on occ.. can be some bumpy neighborhoods there.

I carry either a G19 with 1 extra of the HKUSPc 45..with one extra, so I do not ever feel undergunned.

[wyocarp]

If you feel undergunned, buy a different gun.

[Ringtail]

I always feel under gunned when I carry a handgun. What if I meet up with a bad guy that has a rifle?

[mljdeckard]

No. No matter what pistol I was carrying, other than to remember that my main plan is to get away and get to a rifle as soon as possible.

It doesn't matter how many rounds your pistol has. You need to assume it will malfunction and you will wind up switching mags anyway. If you are staring down six bad guys, by yourself, all of whom are really a big enough threat that you really need to shoot them, an MP-5 probably wouldn't save you. I have carried up to 52 rounds with my Glock, and I am currently down to 19 rounds with my 1911. I carry an extra magazine to clear a malfunction, not to have more rounds. Real life doesn't happen Mel Gibson style, when I HAVE to fire 15 rounds or more without reloading. If that isn't enough, I am way out of handgunville and walking to rifletown.

This comes back to situational awareness and mindset. Your plan should always have you tracking where you are and what you are doing, and what you will do if something bad happens. (It's usually to get out the back door.) Go to a public place. Carry a phone if you carry a gun. (Keep the phone when you CAN'T carry a gun.) Get some books on living a tactical lifestyle in general. (Clint Smith and Massad Ayoob come to mind.)

About 12 years ago, at about midnight, I was at a McD's in Salt Lake City with a friend of mine and his new wife. She knew I carried and she was curious. A carload of individuals....very much fitting the profile for high-risk came into the store. There were other.....high-risk people yelling at them from outside the store. Spanish isn't one of the four languages I speak, but their tone was universal. We were at the back sitting down in a corner, they were at the front counter. After a few minutes, four police cars showed up and started cuffing people outside.

So she asked me, "What would you have done?" "Absolutely nothing. Look at it. We are cornered in, we can't go anywhere. There are a dozen of them, there is one of me. If I pull out a gun and try to discern which one I should shoot, I pick the one with the gun I can see, how many more guns are there I CAN'T see? They didn't bother me, I didn't bother them. People who are PAID to take terrible risks came and did so. All I'm going to do is go somewhere else next time."

[wyocarp]

Wow, a good reason to have more gun.

[willbrink]

Thoughts: no gun is too light and small when you have to lug it around all day and no gun is too big and heavy when the SHTF. Only you can really decide the balance between those two realities. More gun and less comfort or more comfort and less gun? I generally chose the former myself.

[symr00]

I used to feel under gunned with my S&W 642 when off duty so I started carrying a G23. I've been carrying a gun everyday I'm out of the house for the last 13 years. I've finally gotten to the point where I like to enjoy my off time without having a larger handgun stuck in my pants. I'm now going back to the J frame off duty only in .357 this time. I prefer not to get involved in situations off duty. I would rather be an excellent witness to avoid being killed or getting my wife killed. The only time I would feel the need for more firepower is during another mall shooting, terrorist attack.

[makarovnik]

Yes.

[rfwobbly]

Just as if there were six of you and he started shooting, people would scatter pretty fast. So I rather think the converse would be true. Thieves do what they do because they want easy money, not because they are willing to make any sacrifices or endure any trouble. This is born out by a lot of the stories in the American Rifleman each month. Some citizen merely produces a gun and the bad guys start burning shoe leather.

[Leanwolf]

The only time I've felt "undergunned," did not have anything to do with "bad guys:" it had to do with a Black bear.

Several years ago, when I lived in Calif., my wife and I had a vacation home up in the southern Sierra, in Tulare County, on the western slope at about 6,000 feet altitude. Our property was bounded on two sides by the Sequoia Nat'l. Forest.

Many, many times I walked for quite a distance up into the forest, just exploring, enjoying the beauty and quiet of the forest and mountains. I never left the house for my walk/hike, without being armed.

If I carried my .22 LR rifle, I also carried a heavy caliber handgun, i.e., .41 Mag., .45 Colt., .44 Mag., .45 ACP, etc. If I carried a .22 pistol or revolver, I carried my Marlin 336, .30-30.

One afternoon, I was shooting some ground squirrels that had been feasting on the roots of my two apple trees. Afterward, I decided to go up into the forest and as I had my Browning Challenger .22 LR pistol in a holster on my belt already, just hopped across the fence and proceeded up into the trees.

About a mile from home, I decided to angle off down into a draw where I knew of a tiny spring, for a drink of fresh water. As I got near the spring, I suddenly spied a movement behind an old fallen pine by the spring. Suddenly, without warning, a large Black bear stood up quickly, looked at me, made that "woof!" they do, and immediately dropped back on all fours and came around the log toward me.

I pulled out that little .22 pistol, wishing I had a rifle somewhere along the line of a .416 Rigby. Talk about feeling "undergunned," I surely did!

That bear looked at me and I looked at it. I very slowly started backing off, trying to make myself not turn and run as I knew that would be a mistake. As I inched away, the bear took a couple of steps toward me, then "woofed" again, and slowly turned and angled off away from the spring.

I went home, looking over my shoulder all the way.

I am very glad I did not have to use that .22 pistol. I never again went out into the boonies --ANYWHERE -- without either a good centerfire rifle, or a heavy caliber handgun. That was years ago: holds true for me today.

FWIW.

EDIT: I should have added that the bear and I were about 25/30 feet apart, when I drew my pistol.
L.W.

[spyderdude]

Everyone I know that packs heat carries a big bore or some type of rather powerful handgun. A few guys I know carry .45s and one other guy carries a Glock 20 10mm Auto. I personally choose to carry 9mm because it is the cartridge I can shoot most accurately under rapid fire. I sometimes feel under gunned around them, but I keep reminding myself that no matter what caliber I go with, shot placement will be the factor in stopping a potential threat. Living in Alaska also poses the risk of running into huge animals such as Moose and Bears. I know there is no way I could easily stop a bear with 9mm, but I often stay within city limits anyway, and rarely see bears. I do see Moose quite often, but they keep to themselves.

[Deanimator]

You're only "undergunned" if you're unarmed.

I'd rather not face an AKM with a Ruger MkII. I'd much rather do that than face one with a thrown rock like those poor devils in India.

A 158gr. LSWC-HP in the eye beats a magazine full of 7.62x39mm that misses EVERY time.

If you have an AKM and I shoot you in the head, what's yours becomes mine.

[Nicky Santoro]

Going up against 6 armed and determined people might as well be put the barrel in your mouth... you have a better chance of surving.

In an SD situation, after you shoot the first one or two, most likely all you will see is backsides and elbows disappearing as fast as they can manage. This is not war, it's street crime. I've seen both. In my war they kept coming until you killed them all. In my experience with street crime, once you present the deterrent, they unass the area with alacrity. They want your wallet, not a lung full of hollow points. Luckily, I've never had to shoot on the street.
Your personal experience may vary.

[dp509]

Well Said Gun Slinger :D :D

I carry a Glock 19 with extra magazine or a Kahr CW9 with a extra magazine.

Depends on clothing.

I do not feel undergunned with a 9mm. :eek:

It is what I can consistently hit with and that is what counts :neener:

[Knives]

Alas, my CCW has expired (going to rectify that soon) but when I did carry, I carried a 1911 and never felt undergunned.

[kgpcr]

I carry a Smith M&P40 with 155grn Ranger hollow points. I never feel under gunned. I would pick a .380 over a .22 and i would pick a .40 over a 9mm. For my pocket carry i carry a .357 with 140grn hollow points. No one ever wished they had carried a smaller round when they were in a gun fight.

[420Stainless]

I would only feel undergunned if my attacker had:


Full Automatic or harsher
a rifle from long distance
6 suicidal friends that would carry the attack to the end no matter what


Since none of those has happened to me, and I don't envision any of them happening to me, I happily go about my business most often with a single stack or sometimes a Detective Special and no re-loads. Most any self-defense situation I would likely encounter should be resolved with one good shot from most any caliber. I'd have to make the good shot, but that is still required whether I have six rounds or 50. Although - I guess the case could be made that if you spray enough lead around, all but the most determined attacker would turn tail and leave the scene whether hit or not.

If I were in law enforcement, or some other occupation which required deliberatly placing myself in dangerous situations then I would want enough guns and ammo to get through a three gun match.

[Blacksmoke]

Last time I felt "undergunned" was while cruising in the Pacific Ocean. We ran into a ship called "Yamato". I felt we were seriously undergunned. Somehow we managed to come out ahead, though.

That was supposed to be funny. I guess it laid an egg.

[jc650]

I carry an MP 340 for the most part. Sometimes I also carry a speed strip sometimes I dont. In my surroundings I feel comfortable with 5 ready to go with 5 more in my pocket.

I try to stay away from potential problem areas, but in this day trouble seems to be popping up in less likely places all the time.

I really felt more of a need to carry when I had kids and knew that getting away from trouble would be much more difficult with little kids.

[Ben86]

My carry choice is a Glock 26.

So, my antagonist would either have to be carring a rifle or shotgun (which will most likely be seen in time for me to get to cover or maybe even far far away), or have lots of buddies with him to make me feel outgunned.

I might also feel outgunned if I only had a revolver. No offense to revolver lovers but MY skill with one is not something I am confident enough with to use as my primary carry gun.

[george29]

Mike, you are a thinking person, congratulations. Truly. Armchair commando's will give you advice but not from their own experience, belittle your thinking or already know what is worth doing and what is not. They have seen it (once, maybe) or heard of it by their cousin's uncle's best-friend.

We hope for the best, we prepare for the worst. We are bound by rules that make little sense and we are constricted by a society that does not like law or law enforcement.
I won't give you advice but I will tell you my thoughts.
I'm too old to run, and even if I could I won't, never have. I have been on both ends of a gun, I have worn a blue uniform and now don't. I have seen sh*t happen until I was sure I had seen it all, and then something else would make me go "Wow!" There is no such thing as a given scenerio, each time is different. I don't think going against six guys is automatic death, not only have I in the past, many cops have as well. It's not the blue suit or the badge, it's your demeanor. If they believe you are capable of inflicting harm on them, they will leave you alone, they aren't stupid and no one I know volunteers to get shot. 6 guys with AK's are a different story. I am always armed with 3 handguns when I go out, a 642 in one pocket, a NAA in another, and a model 10 hanging from my shoulder. It's not a good combination and I am in the process of changing it. The model 10 will probably be replaced by a Rami 2075, it's smaller and carries more bullets and I trust the 9mm more than I do .38 special.
I went to McDonalds at midnight to pick up a burger, usually I don't go out after dark. I did this time and instead of the Model 10 I took my 5.5" SBH. Let no one tell you that being outnumbered is an automatic death, but using your mind wisely is your best defense and the best shooting is the one you avoid.

[357sigRog]

I carry my Glock 357sig loaded with either Double Tap or Rem. Golden Sabre and I never feel undergunned.

[kgpcr]

Holy crap i never carried 3 guns when i was in the Marines. Granted i had some other play toys but only an M16 or M14 and a 1911. I could have carried the 9mm but would not. i had a buddy send me a 1911 widebody from SA. I liked the M14 in the desert but when we hit town i grabbed an M16. now they have the M4. I just do not see the need for 3 guns to feel safe. More important than the right gun is kowing how to use it and being able to function under pressure.

[Kind of Blued]

I've felt undergunned carrying a J-frame.

More often, I've felt "undergunned", even when carrying two guns, because I'm not sure how quickly I can get to them. I'd much rather carry two or three smaller guns than one high-capacity auto. When someone is sitting right next to you, there isn't a lot of time or room for movement if they were to decide to harm you. Having options is a good thing.

[george29]

Holy crap i never carried 3 guns when i was in the Marines.

A NAA is like a Bic Lighter, A 642 is always with me forgotten in a pocket, which leaves the M10 or SBH. As opposed to to being a Soldier in a combat zone, a Soldier that is almost never alone, wears body armor, communication device, an M4 strapped to the front of his chest in ready mode and maybe a few frags for good luck, a civilian is all alone, and there is an old Beduin saying, "Always be prepared in the desert", and, "The desert hides all." Having faced the foe more than once, I can safely say that when it happens, it won't be a him against you, rather you against them. No matter wher I place my hand, it's close to a weapon, two of which I hardly feel due to thyeir diminutive size and weight. After switching out the oversized finger grip molded Pachmayer on my SBH back to it's original wooden grips, I feel it's more comfortable as a CCW. I wouldn't be afraid to take on a banger with an AK with my SBH, just have to connect once....

[Legacy 6]

Let me relate a story that hit my hometown on 15th of July this summer, though the incident occured on the 4th of July. The politics that followed up was that all these teens were "Repressed Troubled Youths" and didn't know better. Hmm, let's see - it's about $30+ to get into Valley Fair, and one called all the others on cell phones. Sounds repressed to me. There were other articles that called it a white on black hate crime: Let me share this link with you from the last story in a nearby small paper. The other think is that the fact that the family involved was also black. The Minneapolis/St. Paul papers NEVER reported on that. http://www.jordannews.com/news/next-door/valleyfair-assault-brings-flood-race-assumptions-8443

Father Badly Beaten By 8 At Valleyfair
SHAKOPEE, Minn. (WCCO) ― Six men and a teenager are facing felony assault charges after they seriously injured the father of a 12-year-old girl at Valleyfair Amusement Park, according to Shakopee Police.

The report states just after midnight the evening of July 4, police were dispatched to Valleyfair to assist an officer with the detention of the men and to help provide medical attention to the unconscious victim. When officers arrived, Valleyfair security and one officer already had the men detained in the main parking lot.

Witnesses told police that the fight began when one of the men slapped the girl on her buttocks. The father responded by yelling at him. The man then used his cell phone to call his seven friends over to "get these bitches," according to the mother of the girl.

In the fight that followed, the father received a broken right orbital (the facial bones around the eye), cuts to his face and arms, and possible subdural bleeding between his skull and brain, according to police.

The first officer at the scene was directed by Valleyfair Security to the group of eight men, and he ordered them to the ground. Seven of them did so, but one tried to run and was later apprehended.

Though the victim was unconscious, his wife was able to inform police about what happened and identify the suspects. She said that the eight men took turns stomping on her husband's face as he was on the ground.

All of the suspects were arrested and taken to Scott County Jail.

The six men who have been charged were identified by the Scott County District Court as 22-year-old Terry Laron Arnold, 19-year-old Andrew Demarkis Shannon, 18-year-old Devondre Evans-Lewis, 19-year-old Derry Darnell Evans, 20-year-old Darris Devon Evans, 20-year-old Anthony Cornandance Gildersleeve. A seventh teen was also charged, but his name was not released because he is a minor.

[CoRoMo]

I certainly wish I had another loaded magazine (or two) with me as opposed to my lone 9mm loaded up full, but no, I haven't felt 'undergunned' with the 9x19 +P rounds at all. The "six guys" scenario is a good illustration as to why we should really make an effort to convince our loved ones to 'help out' in the area of personal defense. If my wife would only get her dang CCP, that would really add some piece of mind... and hardware.

[kgpcr]

Legacy it WAS in the papers. I also read it on thier webistes. It totaly sucked. I would not have stood by and watched that go down. I also would not have pulled my pistol. I would have waded in swinging if i had to. At 6'4 300lbs i know i could lay a few down no problem. Being a Marine and having taken just about every course they offer a rifleman would have helped me out as well as it was good training. Punks those guys are. Tough as nails when its 10 on on but even the odds a bit and they run like the little cockroackes they are

[jaholder1971]

I don't care what you're carrying, the only true determination of firepower is between your ears.

It's your ability to get out of the situation alive with what you have available. Never forget that.

[kgpcr]

Jaholder1971 that is SO VERY TRUE! Attitude and training dertermine the outcome. You best weapon is between your ears!

[Legacy 6]

KGPCR, it was reported in small town papers, but I am pretty sure the Star Trib never printed that.

Anyway, thanks for the reminder Coromo. My brother and I had a discussion surrounding the issue of, "where the hell were the other Men??" Who saw this and did nothing? Who hid, or just stared and watched while a guy is being beaten to death...?

And the second thing we spoke about was of course, how do we make it out of that fight alive? Looking at the pics of those 14-21 year old "boys," well, some looked pretty big to me! He and I train in martial combat disciplines as well, and I'm still in the Army (he got out a few years back) so we both have trained in "combatives." The trouble with that stuff is it teaches one-on-one hand-to-hand combat. How do you fight 6 guys? I don't know what the Marines teach, but I doubt they're teaching you how to fight six guys at once.

At what point do you pull your weapon or otherwise convince them that your life is worth more than theirs?

[kgpcr]

Legacy
you make good points about 6 on 1. However I just cant stand by and watch a guy at a place like that with his kids there get pummeled. If i pull my gun its going to be a bad scene. If i pull it it is coming out to be used and if they dont do what i tell them i will shoot and i damn sure dont want to do that. If i dont shoot i will most likely get my gun taken away and used on me. Thats the worst thing that can happen. I think if you entered the fight it would be 6 on two and if you take one out right off the bat its now 5 on two and they are punks. Still not good odds but you have one down at least LOL. Little cockroaches they are! Some of them would be one punch and lights out. Oh well many a Marine has got his butt kicked but we always seem to get the job done LOL.