Sig 220 ST from CDNN: Any good?


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Malodorousroadkill
November 27, 2008, 09:48 AM
I'm in the process of selling my 226, my plan is to replace it with a 220. I've noticed that CDNN has Sig 220 STs for $599 in excellent or like new condition with rails. Monstrous full steel beasts. I figure this fits my requirements nicely. However, has anyone actually had any experience with these CDNN sigs? If they're in such good condition and at such a fine price, I have to ask.. Whats wrong with them?

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SimpleIsGood229
November 27, 2008, 02:25 PM
That is an excellent price. I, too, wonder what the deal is, though. :confused:

bryanZ06
November 27, 2008, 03:07 PM
I've had good luck with CDNN in the past. If I didn't already have a P220ST I'd be tempted to order one.

Malodorousroadkill
November 27, 2008, 04:01 PM
Think a quick call might reveal whats going on there? Besides that'd answer some questions I have for buying from them anyway.

Marcus L.
November 27, 2008, 04:20 PM
First question.....is your P226 a 9mm?

Second question if your P226 is a 9mm.....why would you want to sell a pistol(P226 9mm) which has time and time again passed extended and abusive law enforcement and military testing which included the DOA testing of 1982, the FBI trials of 1993, the DHS trials of 2002, and the DOD trials of 2005 for a pistol(P220 .45acp) that hasn't passed any such trials? In fact, during the DOD trials of 2005, three of the five P220s started breaking parts before they even reached 3000rds. FLETC(Federal Law Enforcement Training Center) processes hundreds of Sig pistols each year for maintenance and repair for the various Federal agencies that use them. They report that the P220 suffers almost 10 times the number of parts breakages than the 9mm versions do. Why does the P220 have such problems?...because it started as a 9mm pistol. When converted to .45acp, it was kept with the same external dimensions as its 9mm parent in order to share a common holster. However, this made the pistol relatively weak. The slide mass is also too light resulting in added pounding on the frame and frame internals causing fatigue and loss of toughness. Common problems with the P220 .45acp are broken trigger bars, cracking frames, broken trigger return springs, broken extractors, broken ejectors, and cracked slides.

If you MUST have the P220 .45acp, for God's sake don't give up your P226 to get it.

Lone Star
November 27, 2008, 04:40 PM
For what it's worth,, an FBI agent on another forum said that the Bureau has withdrawn most of its SIG's due to cracking slide rails (on the frames) and is continuing with Glocks, for now.

The RCMP SWAT team also had problems with cracking slide rails years ago. I understahd that the parts were beefed up a little, but evidently not enough for those users who fire a great many rounds.

But even the steel frame of a Colt Government Model may crack if the guin is shot a lot in the action style matches, where competitors fire thousands of rounds a year. Star even made a relief cut above the slide stop hole in the frames of their Colt lookalikes in late production, because that area is subject to cracking.

If you will shoot a 9mm a great deal, I suggest the CZ-75B or the discontinued Star M-30. The latter, of course, now has a parts and service problem. It's a pity that the company went out of business. The SIG P-210 also has a rep for durability, but is priced beyond most shooters' means.

I honestly think the Colt is still the best bet if you want a .45. Springfield's copies of it are also good.


Lone Star

Marcus L.
November 27, 2008, 07:52 PM
The best quality CZs were those produced just after the fall of the USSR. CZ has slowly lowered their quality controls and have gone with cheaper Czech carbon steel. In 1993 the FBI incorporated five CZ 75bs into their testing. None of those pistols made it past the 7000rd mark before breaking parts. Keep in mind, these were the early post USSR imports which were superior. Just one of many examples was when Maddog knives took a early 75b and a 2005 made 75b frame and cut them open. The early model had a good quality steel casting. The 2005 model was porous and of poor casting quality. In the Department of Defense testing the CZ 75b was once again involved in the testing. Three of the 5 pistols in the test broke parts before the 5000rd mark and all of the pistols failed in the consistancy test in adverse conditions which included sand and frozen test. It was actually one of the worst performing pistols in terms of reliability and durability. Sig Sauer won the DOD testing along with the DHS testing. Both Glock and Sig finished the FBI testing but Glock was chosen for two reasons. The FBI wanted a single trigger condition, and Glock bid $150 per G22 while Sig bid $325 per P229. Glock failed in the DHS testing and failed in the more recent DOD testing.

For the DOA testing Sig submitted the P226 9mm. For the FBI testing Sig submitted the P226 9mm, the P228 9mm, and the P229 .40S&W. For the DHS testing Sig submitted the P226 9mm, the P229 in .40S&W and .357sig, and the P239 9mm. In the DOD testing Sig submitted the same pistols as it did in the DHS testing. ALL.....of the pistols submitted by Sig Sauer in these tests have passed. There is actually no other pistol manufacturer that has been able to achieve this.

It is actually quite shocking that Sig has let the P220 be such a problem. They made improvements to the design when the US Army announced plans for the lastest .45acp pistol trials, but they didn't take it fully into an evolution that would make it as good as the P226 or P229 since the project was cancelled by the Army before any real work was done. Sig designed a double column P220 prior to 1994 which had a beefed up slide and frame that held a lot of promise......but the 1994 ban ended the project. It was designed almost from scratch and was to be along the same design criteria as the P229 which made no compromises in terms of external dimensions.

If you want a Sig 9mm, any of them are of excellent quality. If you want a Sig in .40S&W or .357sig, go for the P229. If you want a Sig in .45acp,.....don't and instead check out H&K or S&W.

Malodorousroadkill
November 27, 2008, 09:47 PM
The sig in question is in .40 S&W. 9mm is fine in a poly frame. 9mm does not need weight to make it comfortable or perfectly accurate.

solvability
November 27, 2008, 10:24 PM
I bought several used pistols from CDNN and have been very satisfied. I got a regular 220 from them and it was excellent - carried but fired very little. I would not hesitate to buy a gun from CDNN.

Ok - now I would like to say the 226 is a better pistol - the 220 has a lot of recoil torque and is not as durable as the 1911. I would skip the 220 - if you want a 45acp get a good 1911 it will last longer and be nicer to shoot.

I shoot my 226 a lot and 225 quite a bit too. The 220 is a safe queen - but it is reliable and controls are Sig so I can transition easily if I want to shoot it.

Lone Star
November 28, 2008, 01:06 AM
Marcus L.-

Did MadDog Knives' man try to cut any other pistols? Without knowing how they might have fared, all that tells us is that he might have gotten a frame that escaped heat treating. Why did he pick on the CZ-75B? Does he represent some other manufacturer? The CZ seems to have a very solid reputation worldwide.

I will note that Czech Poldi steel has a good rep in Europe. I do not know that any Russian steel was ever used in the CZ's. What is your source for that?

Was the Beretta M-92FS included in the trials that you mentioned? It seems to have finished on par with the SIG P-226 in military trials.

Lone Star

jlh26oo
November 28, 2008, 05:07 AM
The P220 is I.M.O. a very soft shooting .45 A.C.P. (much less in the all-S.S. version). Mine has been 100% reliable, and so accurate it "connects the holes" at 15 yards and in, so I would highly recommend one.

O.T.O.H. I would have to agree with not selling your P226 in order to get it, but pick one up when you can keep both. And B.T.W. that is a good price, but I would not be skeptical just because of low it is. I've seen N.I.B. P220's blown out for $539 at a pretty large reputable dealer recently (granted not S.S., no N.S., T.T. and D.A.K. configuration), so anything is possible considering C.D.N.N. is at least as huge. But that's a great deal. If you can swing it and hold on to your P226 at the same time... GO (for it)!~

Marcus L.
November 28, 2008, 08:04 AM
Beretta withdrew early in the DHS testing after several of their submitted pistols started having some problems. There are no specifics as to what the problems were. It passed the 1982 DOA testing and was adopted. It failed the 1993 FBI testing. It passed the DOD testing in 9mm, but failed it in .40S&W. The Beretta overall is a good 9mm pistol.

MadDog Knives does not represent any firearms manufacturers or firearms parts that I know of. I'm not sure why they chose to cut up some CZ frames and not others. Pictures were posted several years back of the process on Police One but I have yet to locate them again. Every indication of their work demonstrated an unbias point of view. As for the drop in quality controls, that comes from Mark Stripling who was the facility supervisor for CZ before he went over to H&K.

As for the CZ having a solid reputation around the world, who would that be? The only countries I know of that use the CZ are a few small former USSR satellite states that still have Makarovs in circulation. Not even the Czech police use the CZ anymore. They had a brief adoption of the P-01, but started having unspecified problems and are now using mostly Glocks. If the CZ had such a reputation, why do we not see any major players using it?

Malodorousroadkill
November 28, 2008, 09:59 AM
I'm not much impressed by .40 S&W, so thats why I'm selling. Sig's have awesome triggers though. Thats one of the big reasons for getting a 220 and its in .45 ACP. If they made a railed 97bd, I'd try one of those. I do want the full steel version of the 220 vs the normal alloy one. I don't think it'll be much in the way of muzzle flip.

gc70
November 28, 2008, 06:11 PM
The P220 is I.M.O. a very soft shooting .45 A.C.P. (much less in the all-S.S. version).

What difference do you perceive in the recoil of the stainless version?

R12GS
November 28, 2008, 06:21 PM
its much heavier

golden
November 29, 2008, 07:24 AM
MARCUL L.

Prior to 2000, the I&NS held pistol trials and only the BERETTA 96D Brigadier and SIG 229 passed.

This was the second round of testing. The initial tests failed all the pistols from what I was told.

Jim

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