12 GA 3in. slugs vs. grizz


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flyboy1788
November 27, 2008, 04:32 PM
I was reading an interesting post on here a few days ago about a 45acp 1911 vs bears and it was quite interesting. I like thinking about theoretical scenarios and I was wondering, how effective would 12Ga 3in. rifled slugs be on grizzlies or other large bears. Is this more than enough or are there certain things about slugs that would make it less desirable than other possible options?

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Jeff F
November 27, 2008, 04:55 PM
A hard cast slug like the Brenneke slugs at close range would be very effective and would be my choice for defense against the big bears.

Some will say you need a magnum rifle in a large caliber but at defensive ranges a 12 gauge pump will put a lot of firepower on a bear faster then a bolt action rifle.

flyboy1788
November 27, 2008, 05:37 PM
Jeff, thats what i was thinking as well, seeing as this is a theoretical "defense"/"im about to get eaten" scenario and not a hunting scenario, so naturally it would be at very close range.

rcmodel
November 27, 2008, 05:50 PM
I would stay with 2 3/4" Brenneke's.

One more round in the magazine, and not enough differance in power to make one whit of differance.

And they don't kick quite as hard, so follow-up shots would be a little faster.

rcmodel

Friendly, Don't Fire!
November 27, 2008, 05:55 PM
Yes, I think 12 gauge slugs would take out a large bear.

Whether the bear attacks you in the process is another story.

With the right shot(s), you might drop the bear. I'd take the 12 gauge slugs over most rifles.

Lone Star
November 27, 2008, 06:21 PM
I undrstand that the US Fish & Wildlife officers in Alaska are issued such shotguns for bear defense. I think they have 870's.


Lone Star

RyanM
November 27, 2008, 06:54 PM
Brennekes would be reasonably effective. Foster slugs, I'd bet almost anything against 'em. A lot of people who've hunted or guided professionally in Africa have said that Foster slugs are just about useless against charging big cats. Even against a leopard (which only get to be about 200 pounds tops), a Foster slug will, more often than not, just stick in the chest muscle if you shoot one from the front.

Jeff F
November 27, 2008, 07:20 PM
Foster slugs are made out of soft lead and most have a hollow base. I have seen foster slugs penetrate better then a .44 magnum. For any application where something is trying to eat me I'll stick to the Brennekes.

flyboy1788
November 27, 2008, 07:35 PM
Im not trying to discredit you RyanM, Im not doubting you've heard/read people say that, but I have a really hard time believing a 12ga forster slug would not penetrate past the chest muscle of even the largest cat at "danger close" distances of 50 yards and closer. 12ga forster slugs have been bringing down thousands deer of that size for decades, what gives?

RyanM
November 27, 2008, 11:03 PM
Im not trying to discredit you RyanM, Im not doubting you've heard/read people say that, but I have a really hard time believing a 12ga forster slug would not penetrate past the chest muscle of even the largest cat at "danger close" distances of 50 yards and closer. 12ga forster slugs have been bringing down thousands deer of that size for decades, what gives?

It's mainly the difference between shooting from the front instead of from the side. From the side, Foster slugs are fine against leopards, and lions, because there's relatively little muscle there. Just the ribs, and a little bit of meat between 'em. From the front, you've got the pectoral muscles, plus those muscles are going to be tensed if the animal is charging right at you. Sort of like punching someone in the stomach by surprise, vs. if they're expecting it and tense up their muscles. End result is, when you're shooting an animal that's charging straight at you, you've got a whole heck of a lot more muscle to punch through, and much tougher muscle to boot.

Also, you have to take into account the very poor sectional density of 12 gauge slugs. 437.5 grains and .729 caliber = 0.118 in sectional density. A .45-70 bullet (since 12 gauge is often compared to .45-70) with that sectional density would weigh only 173 grains, considerably less than your usual .45 ACP bullets! They basically have a sectional density more like a bullet that's expanded. And then Foster slugs soft lead and expand even more on top of that...

On the other hand, Brennekes don't expand much at all, so they actually do perform pretty similarly to a .45-70 softpoint or medium alloy lead bullet that expands to about 12 ga. in diameter.

flyboy1788
November 27, 2008, 11:15 PM
Yea, i didnt really think about the sectional density issue, but it makes sense. More density=more penetration. more penetration is a big plus for big thick skinned game, but i just didnt think a 200lb cat would be that tough from the front. Sooo....12ga with brenneke slug=dead grizz. 12GA with foster slug=maybe a dead grizz, or a pissed off one that is now going to eat you, so why take the chance with a foster slug is basically what it comes down to.

kgpcr
November 27, 2008, 11:20 PM
12ga slugs are great but i carry a .454 Casull. 360grn Grizzly or Buffalo Bore bullets and feel safe with them. I can get to my Ruger Alaskan faster than i can unsling a shot gun and with Big bear its almost always close in and things happen very quickly

flyboy1788
November 27, 2008, 11:47 PM
I can get to my Ruger Alaskan faster than i can unsling a shot gun and with Big bear its almost always close in and things happen very quickly

i can unsling my shotgun in .05295 seconds:D This is all theoretical anyways, ill probobly never encounter a bear in my life, its just entertaining/ interesting to think about certain scenarios and to educate yourself just in case.

JImbothefiveth
November 27, 2008, 11:52 PM
Why not see if you can get a bear skull, put it in a ballistics gel mold, and put a rug on top of that to simulate fur, and test it?

dagger dog
November 28, 2008, 12:07 AM
I remember a nature program on polar bears. They were talking to an Inuit tribesman, that had been attacked and survived. The ranger? that was called was shown dismounting from a helicopter and slung over his shoulder was a short barreled ,extended magazine, black stocked, shot gun and doubt very seriously that it was loaded with #8.

That Brenneke slug is the bear stopper for sure that is if you can keep the bead from shaking if your behind the trigger!

flyboy1788
November 28, 2008, 12:08 AM
Why not see if you can get a bear skull, put it in a ballistics gel mold, and put a rug on top of that to simulate fur, and test it?
brilliant. do they sell all that at gander mountain?:D

RyanM
November 28, 2008, 01:29 AM
I can get to my Ruger Alaskan faster than i can unsling a shot gun and with Big bear its almost always close in and things happen very quickly

Well, you can put a tac sling on a 12 gauge. I'm planning on slapping a single point sling on my Serbu Super Shorty, fairly soon. Only problem is I have to use the terrible factory grip to have a sling swivel.

And I dunno, "African carry" is pretty quick to bring the gun into play, if all you've got is a regular sling. Weak side shoulder, muzzle down. Just grab the foreend with your weak hand, and bring it up to your shoulder.

sbarkowski
November 28, 2008, 10:55 AM
While watching the Wild Network the other day there were a few show on Alberta bear hunting. All of the guides were carrying short barreled Novas with extended mags, and rifles on their backs. Im assuming they chose Novas because they are light and easy to carry on the long hikes they were taking. Dont know what they had loaded in them tho.

JImbothefiveth
November 28, 2008, 12:48 PM
brilliant. do they sell all that at gander mountain?
I think you can make a substance very close to ballistics gel with some water and gelatin. Don't know if they sell food at Gander mountain.

Actually getting a bear skull should be a problem, that I should have thought of.

But, maybe your local butcher would have cow skulls.

And a rug, that's probably the one thing that would be available at gander mountain.

flyboy1788
November 28, 2008, 03:17 PM
Jimbo, you are funny:D

wnycollector
November 28, 2008, 04:56 PM
Last night before thanksgiving dinner we had a visitor. Our neighbors son was visiting from alaska where he is a tour guide. He wanted to say hi to my wife who was his HS social studies teacher.

We started talking about camping and kayaking in AK. He told us that he has been charged by bears before w/ no harm done...but what scares him the most are moose! I of course asked him he carried with him when he was out in the bush. He carries a 5 1/2" Ruger blackhawk .44 everywhere and usually a 12ga pump loaded with Brenneke's.

Zoogster
November 28, 2008, 05:01 PM
But, maybe your local butcher would have cow skulls.

And a rug, that's probably the one thing that would be available at gander mountain.
First off shooting a dried out skull is nothing like shooting a living skull still full of collagen, with living tissue, surrounded and stabilized by dense muscle. Even portions of the skull not surrounded by muscle have the vibrations that can increase shattering effects dampened by being in proximity to the muscle while being full of collagen and living tissue.

So a skull is not a skull. Living skulls have very different properties than dead skulls.


Second, you would think every US citizen lived near grizzly bears. This and similar questions come up at least once a month.
In the lower 48 there is a little more than 1,000 total grizzlies. In Alaska a little over 30,000.
There is over 301,000,000 people in the USA.

So that means for every Grizzly there is close to 10,000 people.
1-3 cubs are usualy born in a litter, and stay with thier mother several years, during which time she usualy will not mate or have any more cubs.
So they have a slow population growth rate.

If just 1% of 1% of the population or .01% of the human population in the US killed 1 grizzly within a 3 year period, they would be completely exterminated.

If .01% of the population killed 1 grizzly in a 10 year period, they would be exterminated within a 20-30 year period.
In fact the decline happens faster than just numbers show once they get below a certain number, because finding mates is very difficult.

To actualy have a growth rate larger than a decline in thier population, very few can be killed in a given year.



So defending yourself against any dangerous animal intent on doing you harm is important. It should be avoided though if possible.
Yet people who live in cities across the country have this fascination with using a technological advantage to easily dispatch a critter they will likely never see in the wild, and which they could avoid problems with most of the time.
In fact by understanding the bears body language and behaviors you can avoid most problems.
A lot more than you can say for many potential human attackers that you are far more likely to face.

RyanM
November 28, 2008, 05:05 PM
Yet people who live in cities across the country have this fascination with using a technological advantage to easily dispatch a critter they will likely never see in the wild.

Well, sure. Tool use is what makes us human!

Actually, that's kinda my theory for why football is so popular. It involves a few of the most important things that got humans to the top of the food chain. Running for a very long time, throwing things, and teamwork.

50 Shooter
November 28, 2008, 05:49 PM
Foster slugs are strong, coming from a welding backround I used to weld scrap piece of angle iron together. I would weld the leading edge to the corner of another piece to make it as wide as needed and then cut it off for length.

I used to make my own spinning targets this way by rigging them up on a length of pipe so that the would spin. One of my frineds of course shot the pipe and ended one of the spinners. Wondering what would happen if I shot it with a slug... I aimed for where the seam was between two piece and let it go... The slug went through 3/16" of steel like it wasn't there and this was from about 20 feet.

earlthegoat2
November 28, 2008, 09:20 PM
First line of defense: Bear Spray

Then you can reach for the street howitzer.

RMc
November 30, 2008, 04:43 PM
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/9425/rem3inchslug2me0.jpg


Soft lead rifled slug recovered from a large doe @ 15 yards.

This 3 inch magnum one ounce factory loaded slug broke up on the ribs and shoulder, it did not exit. Does the job on deer, questionable penetration on larger game

I would not trust any shotgun slug soft enough to fire through a choke bore shotgun, to stop a Grizzly!

There are factory loaded slugs loaded with hard cast heat-treated .73 caliber 730 grain bullets at 1200 fps. The idea is to use a ultra-bore rifle on a shotgun frame.

A Remington 870 Express with a factory rifled barrel loaded with the Dixie Slugs Terminator is in effect an ultra-bore rifle on a shotgun frame!

If you are talking about a 12 bore rifle, throwing a hard .73 caliber bullet, then you are talking about a Grizzly stopper!

rcmodel
November 30, 2008, 04:53 PM
Or a Brenekke slug.

They don't flatten out like a Forster slug.

rcmodel

RMc
December 1, 2008, 07:50 PM
"Or a Brenekke slug.

They don't flatten out like a Forster slug."

rcmodel

-------------------------------------------------------------
rcmodel,

Without knocking other shotgun slug ammunition, remember no swaged lead shotgun slug can out penetrate one made of Hard Cast Heat Treated lead alloy. The Dixie Terminator measures 30+ on the Brinnell Hardness scale. In short range testing I have seen this big 730 grain bullet penetrate as deeply into test mediums as the .416 Rigby 400 grain Federal Partition factory load while blowing a bigger hole!

A handy and inexpensive Remington 870 Express with a rifled barrel, when combined with the Dixie Terminator, becomes an ultra-bore .73 caliber stopping rifle. That is a real bargain!

RMc

Sinixstar
December 1, 2008, 07:56 PM
hmm - i don't know. All this talk about slugs being useless is kind of... i don't know. Don't put much stock in opinions. If I saw some actual evidence - as in, somebody going out and doing some real testing on it - i might believe it.

Oh wait, somebody did...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

actually - this one is the most telling.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot5.htm

.44mag bounced off. 9mm and .45acp barely made a mark.
an AR or a FAL will put a nice clean hole in the lock, but the 12ga completely obliterated the thing. Literally blew it to pieces.

RMc
December 1, 2008, 08:15 PM
Ole' Dixie vs The Bone Box

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=39309

wnycollector
December 1, 2008, 09:01 PM
RMc do you know how the dixie slugs work in smoothbore cyl bore guns?

Sinixstar
December 1, 2008, 09:04 PM
RMc do you know how the dixie slugs work in smoothbore cyl bore guns?


They don't appear to be rifled, which would be a negatory.
They're going to be much harder then your average soft lead rifled slug as well - which means shooting them out of anything with any kind of choke is probably going to be the best idea.

They're designed for rifled slug barrels, period.

wnycollector
December 1, 2008, 09:39 PM
I looks like Brenekke slugs would get the nod for smoothbores.

monkyboy1975
December 1, 2008, 09:45 PM
Yes the brennekes work excellent in smoothbores, my 870 loves them!:D

Big Daddy Grim
December 1, 2008, 10:05 PM
I have taken bears with a shotgun one outside my house trying to get in and in two cases I stopped them dead with "0" buck. The last I took with a slug.

ChemicalArts
December 1, 2008, 10:49 PM
Currently, there are about 1,100 grizzly bears in the continental US. There are substantially more in Alaska and parts of Canada, but the odds of running across a grizzly bear in the lower 48 is pretty rare these days.

I would recommend that you don't shoot the bear unless you are in immenent threat of being attacked. Much like the conflicts between humans, the best resolution is one that doesn't involve shots fired.

By all means, protect yourself from the bear, but remember that as far as he's concerned, you are trespassing on his land. It's better to leave him be if at all possible.

RMc
December 2, 2008, 05:07 PM
wnycollector

"RMc do you know how the dixie slugs work in smoothbore cyl bore guns?"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Smoothbore shotgun barrels are all over the map in bore diameter!

That is why foster slugs are soft lead thimbles and Brenneke slugs have relatively soft rifled vanes. Both types of slugs are designed to swage down to pass through differing bore diameters and chokes.

The Dixie Slugs Terminator fires a 730 grain, .730 diameter hard cast (heat treated to 30+ BHN) flat base bullet at 1200fps from a 20 inch rifled barrel.

The Dixie Slugs Tusker fires a 600 grain, .727 hard cast (heat treated to 30+ BHN) hollow base bullet at 1550fps from a 20 inch rifled barrel.

Both are designed for rifled barrels only!

The Dixie Slugs Tri-Ball II buckshot 3" round fires three hard cast 315 grain .60 caliber balls at 1100fps from a 20 inch smoothbore barrel.
This load is designed for the choked smoothbore and patterns best with chokes ranging from .675 to .695 exit diameters. Yes it is buckshot.

Patterns at 40 yards from a 26" 870 Express with a Briley .695 extended choke tube consistently pattern under 4 inches for me. My 870 Express places this load to point of aim with just the bead & vent rib for sights.

Regardless of your choice of load, make sure it is an informed choice!

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