New York State Shooters: Caution: Trading Handguns at the Range

[gvf]

( after thread opened):
NOTE: THIS INFO BELOW IS NOT ACCURATE OR AT LEAST CONFUSED ON THE PART OF THE PERMIT OFFICE I'VE SINCE FOUND OUT. I STATE WHY IN LATER POST ON THE THREAD.



I live in Erie County, NY, have an Unrestricted Carry Permit, and found out it is considered a gun law violation to shoot someone else's gun at a range - or visa-versa - even if the other person has a permit as well as you. This was from my county permit office. Shooting someone else's puts you legally in the position of using a gun not on your permit, i.e., an unregistered gun. This would likely be considered a felony I believe. Giving yours to someone else would be allowing your weapon to be "not under your supervision". I don't know what type of law that would violate, but you could at least lose your permit.

I routinely have lent off-duty cops my gun on occasion while at the range, and they have theirs. Ones I asked don't even know about this. So, the problem would not likely be getting busted at the range. The problem would arise if there was an accident. It would be investigated and then I imagine you could be up the creek, a felony, + no insurance coverage for liability. Your company would run, not walk, away from any current coverage. You would be financially ruined as well as legally.

So, heads up if you weren't aware of this before. Or at least check with your local permit office in my view. I was completely ignorant of this.

[Agent-J]

Interesting to know. I will have to ask my local office about that.

[gvf]

Interesting to know. I will have to ask my local office about that.Interesting to know. I will have to ask my local office about that.

Post back about it. I'd be interested myself what other Permit Offices say.

[The Lone Haranguer]

:rolleyes: :mad:

[rfwobbly]

You could always move to Georgia. Down here we license the person, not the gun. I didn't even have to own a gun to go get my CCP !

[Nexttime]

I just went through the Monroe County Sheriff's handgun safety course last Saturday. This question was specifically addressed by the two sheriffs running the presentation. They stated quite clearly that it was ok to shoot someone else's gun as long as the permit holder was present. They said as long as both parties had a valid CCW this was not a problem. Can you present a link to NY law that says this actually against the law?

[Agent-J]

Come to think of it, I don't think sharing guns is a problem if both people have a CCW.

The local NRA class gives students pistols to complete the live fire part of the class once they get their pistol permit.

I think the only problem you will run into is if you borrow a friends gun and go to the range without him.

[presspuller]

Just another reason I am glad I don't live in NY.

[groundhog34]

Move to Alabama we don't have silliness like that here.

[JoeShmoe]

It would be nice if we could have a thread like this without all the usual "move to my state" replies. They add nothing to the discussion.

[gvf]

Can you present a link to NY law that says this actually against the law?

(I started this thread.)

No, I never saw it myself. Just the answer I was given by two different staff at the Pistol Permit Office. I'd like to know where the law is too. Unless it's just a County Regulation, but I think one of the two staff indicated it was a State Gun law. I suppose if several ask various permit offices where they live we might get a better idea if what the lay of the land is on this. I have a book of gun laws somewhere I'll dig up for New York, see if I can find anything.

[denfoote]

It would be nice if we could have a thread like this without all the usual "move to my state" replies. They add nothing to the discussion.

Whatsamatterforyou??

You want that we should say what good gun laws you guys have or that we wish we could move there??

FORGITABOUTIT!!!

[CDH]

I'm thinking that there must be more than just a few gun friendly New York congressmen and senators for there to be a legal CCW situtation in New York at all.
So it seems to me that if this is, in fact, law, then you poor souls in New York should be encouraging each other to write those in your state who support the 2nd Amendment to introduce a legislative fix.

That's part of a law that slipped through that makes criminals of honest people, and I would think that it would be easily fixed.
Keep in mind that most (hell, if not all) legislative actions include stupid clauses that various idiot politicians stick in just to make it look like their busy. It's those things that typically result in the ubiquitous "unintended consequences" that hurt more than help, and sensible people in the New York legislature should easily see that it needs to be changed.

I'm just suggesting a little grass roots activism that might make a difference.

[wnycollector]

Unless it's just a County Regulation

The above quote encapsulates the biggest problem that NY'ers face. In New Yorks 62 counties there is the possibility of 62 different sets of rules:fire: Most of upstate NY is very 2nd ammed friendly our problems with handgun permiting and our AWB all eminate from the PD's/politicians that reside in NYC:barf: and its burbs!

Hey GVF PM me if you want to shoot some of my pistols, I'm just up the road in niagara county!

[gvf]

will do.

[gvf]

I found the following in NY State Penal Law in section: Exemptions (to usual penalties for illegal weapons possession). It seems my Permit Office either gave me incorrect information or was speaking about a local ordinance. So sorry.

It seems from this, with certain types of ranges, trading guns is OK for two shooters with permits with both present.

7-a. Possession and use, at an indoor or outdoor pistol range located
in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization
organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in small
arms or at a target pistol shooting competition under the auspices of or
approved by the national rifle association for the purpose of loading
and firing the same, by a person duly licensed to possess a pistol or
revolver pursuant to section 400.00 or 400.01 of this chapter of a
pistol or revolver duly so licensed to another person who is present at
the time.


http://law.onecle.com/new-york/penal/PEN0265.20_265.20.html

[spickus]

"Move to Alabama we don't have silliness like that here."

We have our own silliness though. We cannot carry where alcohol is served, sporting or political events. Open carry is legal but you will be arrested if you attempt it. I think Vermont or Arizona have everyone beat.

[JImbothefiveth]

Don't forget Kentucky.

[madcratebuilder]

NEW YORK CITY...............get a ROPE.
I'm sure glad I live on the north end of the left coast.
That is about the dumbest law I have ever heard of. I'll never go east of Idaho again!

[Nexttime]

Thanks for posting the update. I had a feeling the person who warned you got it wrong. They may have been confusing someone who doesn't have a permit firing a friends gun with someone who has a permit firing a friends gun.

[fecmech]

GVF--Many of the staff and permit clerks themselves are not even cognizant of their own state rules. While in the permit office a few years ago I was talking with another shooter and in the course of the conversation mentioned shooting off my back porch (I live in the country). The clerk overheard me and stated that I had broken the law and was lucky I had not been caught as it's illegal to discharge a firearm within 500 ft of an occupied dwelling. I picked up one of the pamphlets in her office and showed her that it was legal if I had permission of the owner of the dwelling. I had to explain it to her twice!

[jon_in_wv]

If I had the worlds largest bullddozer I would shove NY and LA right into the oceans. Then I'd go bury Chicago. That way we would be back on track to becoming a free country.

[gvf]

GVF--Many of the staff and permit clerks themselves are not even cognizant of their own state rules.

Seems like that's the case....

Where then would be the ultimate source of your state's laws about guns? It's confusing. I abide by the law and want to and "ignorance of the law is no excuse" etc., and I know if I unintentionally break a law it won't matter who said what. I'll be screwed. So who would actually know these things? State Police?
An attorney? I do my research about some things but I didn't write the laws, I don't know the fine points of all this.

[M203Sniper]

It is better in Arizona. ;)



I moved here from NJ, I know. You're rights are being infringed, but more to the point - listening to someone in the "permit" office is like taking advice from the fat lady at the DMV, if it's not about what's for lunch then don't bother. :cool:

It is your responsibility to KNOW the laws where you live - It is also a more defensible position when confronted with stupidity. :)

[jc650]

The whole state of NY is not bad, its really NYC and a couple mayors here and there upstate who just want to pretend they are important by going along with NYC.

Theres alot of people in this state who do not have they NYC does it, so it must be right attitude.

If you do get an unrestricted permit in NY there are very few restrictions so it allows you to carry almost anywhere except a school or a federal gov't bdg or county parks.

[havoc7usmc]

I have a business in Vermont and after the crap pulled by NYC and their under covers guys we don't do business with NY residence. I don't like telling them this and they aren't happy when I do but I don't need the hassle from NY.
We won't even sell them ammo.

[NJ-Tom]

New Jersey also has some restrictions about temporary transfer at ranges. Good news is the law allows temporary firearm transfer or possession at a range if the name of the member is submitted to the State Police annually . Obviously this pertains to clubs, mine submits this with yearly renewals.

[AVESguy]

As an ex New Yorker and ex Californian, and ex-Marylander, I can tell you Florida is pretty good about most things 2A related for law abiding citizens. Not perfect, but better than most. Biggest problem is finding a place to shoot in S Florida...

I feel for ya. Local county ordinances in Maryland around DC are equally crazy. I think there's one in Montgomery County (where I lived for seven years, liberal bastion and home of many Federal offices) that you can't bring a pistol AND ammo together in your car to the range. Someone correct me if I have this wrong, it was told to me by a friend who still lives there.

Unlike some states like Florida, there are no pre-emption clauses in those states' constitutions so local governments can pass their own little Napoleonic rules.

[Agent-J]

havoc7usmc,

thanks for caving to the liberal pressure. we pro-2A NY'ers really appreciate you banning us because it's INCONVENIENT for you. imagine how we feel.

[havoc7usmc]

Sorry. I know that's a crappy way to do business and it's cost me in sales but has "maybe" saved me some BS legal fee's. I'll tell ya though some of the other firearms dealers in this area are following suit. It's unfortunate for pro - 2nd amend people like you to suffer because of a few decision makers.
I also foresee it becoming harder for certain out of state residence to obtain Vermont hunting license for the same reasons.:(

[ArchAngelCD]

Sorry to hear there are so many problems even shooting a friends gun at the range.

Here in Pennsylvania you don't need a permit to shoot a handgun at a range and your handgun isn't connected to your LTCF. (License To Carry A Firearm) Also, there is no confusion from County or local laws because our State Preemption Laws prevent the local governments from passing laws that go against State law.

[hiker44]

Colorado. Open carry. CCW is per person, not per firearm.

[cat9x]

New York should just secede