[BoilerUP]

Wondering what loading everyone likes in their home defense/carry/issue handgun. I'm specifically looking for 9mm, .40SW, and .38 Spec (for a Detective Special) loadings.

I know a couple federal agencies issue the 165gr Speer Gold Dot for .40 S&W...but I suppose I'm most interested in first or second-hand experience with terminal effects from LEOs or those who have had to use their weapon.

I know a couple ball rounds properly placed would ruin the day of any bad guy, but considering the marginal cost increase for quality ammunition and what would be at stake in a true defense situation I want to know what the professionals and experts use.

Thanks!

[Birdhunter1]

I have my Springfield XD 9 mm loaded with 115 grain Cor Bon self defense loads.

[janobles14]

no personal having to shoot someone experience but i can give second hand from my LE guys (im a trainer for a PD).

9mm - Golden Sabers and Gold Dots are the round of choice here. Not sure of weight. A shooting some time back with a 9mm sub gun moved the dept to adopt .45 subs.

.40 - 165 gr gold dots. these have stopped quite a few BGs and one rogue cow!

.38 spl - no idea. i would search the forums. but personally in a snubbie i shoot the 135 gr winchester sxt or the 135 gr gold dots. its just what most of my guys carry in their BUGs. a few guys also carry a heavier 200 gr swc and like it. most of these are the old timers who swore by it back then and have used it with effectiveness.

hope this helps!

[the foot]

Short of having a shotgun for your primary home defense weapon, all these calibers will be adequate for self defense, with any of the ammunition companies' JHP loads.

I suggest you use a shotgun for home defense. For concealed carry, I use 9mm Federal.

[me26245]

Myself I perfer 10 mm or 45 ACP, generally you don't have to worry about stopping what you hit with those calibures. IMHO

me26245

[mbt2001]

I always use Winchester Silvertips... Most of the time, I can get a better price for those and I get a box of 50, or worst case the price is approx the same and I still get a box of 50 instead of 20...

[Birdhunter1]

I was told by an old police officer that if you were to load a wadcutter backwards in a .357 mag it would not exit a person within 20'.

I think he tested it on a deer with a gutshot.

[Prepster]

I'm not sure this thread belongs in S&T, but anyway...

These days I'm carrying Buffalo Bore .45 Colt 255 gr. LSWC, also known as the Keith bullet. It might be excessive for some situations, but I find that to be comforting. Also, nobody wants to stare down the barrel of a Peacemaker.

[GRIZ22]

I was a firearms instructor for a federal agency. It seems to me that ammo purchases are more to spread the wealth (rotate supplier) than finding the "best" ammo. The best ammo for you would be any quality hollowpoint that feeds best and gives you reasonable accuracy.

ps There is no magic bullet.

[RyanM]

In, .40, I like 180 gr Hornady XTPs for the summer, 180 gr Remington Golden Sabers for the winter. If I had to pick just one for year round, it'd be the Remingtons.

[Deus Machina]

Any name-brand hollowpoint will work. Use what feeds well.

In my case, if I could afford to keep my mags full of them, I would stick with Gold Dots or Federal HST, but that's me.

Currently, I'm carrying Winchester's Ranger Bonded. Less than half the price of Gold Dots, and their advertised terminal ballistics are close enough to them that I feel a good hit's a good hit.

[ByAnyMeans]

any modern hollowpoint will do the job as others have stated.

I personally like 147 regular pressure or 124 +p in Federal HST.

I have know expierience with .38 or 40 caliber but again, modern hollowpoint will do you right.

Check out www.ammunitiontogo.com for good prices and Law Enforcement Restricted ammo. ( restrictions are placed on ammo by the company's and it's fully legal for a citizen to use unless your in NJ then no hollowpoints.)

[XD-40 Shooter]

In my XD-40, I use 165 gr Gold Dot's. I don't have a 9mm, but I'd go for the 124 gr Gold Dot in that. 38 spl, 135 gr Gold Dot.:D

[michiganfan]

Use Federal 115 +P+ in my G19

[tat2edangel]

I am of the school of use what works. Go to the range with all the different brands you can get your hands on. Shoot, shoot, and shoot some More and keep records. There are some big benefits of this method. The biggest one being you get to enjoy your firearms.
I here lots of complaining about ammo prices but my goodness we spend hundreds even thousands on our guns and we can't spend a hundred on finding what to feed them so they run reliable and shoot straight. Now I will get off my box!
I run Federal Premium Hydro-shok 230gr. In my 45 and 158Gr in both 357's. I carry a 3" 1911, my wife carry's my snub 357(7 shot 2" snub its a brick so I don't carry it sob no more but it is just fine for her purse, even if she don't shoot a bg with it she can crack a skull with it if she swings it at him. We have even done a little training with her and purse on how to get a good swing with it) and I keep a Henry Big Boy on the wall in the living room(a bit of leather some beads, feathers and a couple dream catchers and nobody ever says anything about the rifle hanging on the wall). I have tried some of Hornady TAP it works beautiful in the 357's but I am only able to get the 45 in 230gr. +P and I have found that the +P is just to snappy for the little 3" ultra carry. I don't feel the few fps I get from the +P is not worth the added stress it puts on me or my gun.
I run Federal I trust Federal and that is what I feel is the most important in a self defense ammo TRUST!!!

[robsc]

Unless you are *%&$ good or half way decent with a handgun, if not, USE a shotgun with either 00 or 000 buckshot or slugs cause that`s what will be required to stop that ^%#%$@# home invader. attacker/murderer/ burglar.

[ccsniper]

remington 9mm 115 grain personal defense. yeah its cheap, but nice and effective.

[Marcus L.]

All of the following loads meet the FBI standardized protocols for law enforcement ammunition by unbias testing. These standards emphasis adequate penetation and expansion not only on a naked subject, but a subject that must be shot through heavy clothing or barriers. In twenty years this proven testing method and standardization has yet to be proven wrong in the field. If you don't see a particular load on this list, it likely didn't pass testing:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical Bonded 124gr+P JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124gr+P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124gr+P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127gr+P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical Bonded 135gr+P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester Ranger Bonded 147gr JHP (RA9B/Q4364) FBI LOAD

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155gr JHP
Federal Tactical Bonded 165gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical Bonded 180gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester Ranger Bonded 180gr JHP (Q4355) FBI LOAD

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230gr+P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical Bonded 230gr+P JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230gr+P JHP (RA45TP)


Notice that the lighter bullet weights don't do as well. This is due to less mass and more important reduced bullet sectional density. Sectional density is in lay terms the mass concentration over a bullet relative to its diamter. Modernized heavier weight bullets(which also have greater sectional density) perform better in simulated and real life scenarios that lighter loads do.

For duty I use Federal Tactical Bonded .40S&W 180gr. Gold Dots are usually a pretty sure bet. Remington Golden Sabers have a notorious history of unreliable results which is why you only see it here in heavier bullet weights.

[BoilerUP]

Marcus,

Thanks for the list! Where did you source that from?

I suppose I should have been more clear in my original post that I was really curious what LE agencies were issuing...or what those here who have had to use their weapon in anger experienced with a particular load.

[Marcus L.]

BoilerUp,

The list comes from Tactical Forums in which you must be a member to access. The testing was performed in part by the FBI and the Firearms Institute. Most LE agencies use ammo from the big three......Federal, Speer, and Winchester. They also tend to favor more modern bonded bullets now days which hold together better while shooting through substances. The best bonded loads are Federal Tactical Bonded and Winchester Ranger Bonded. Speer Gold Dots also come close, but they don't expand quite as well as the Fed and Win loads. I wouldn't feel undergunned with anything on the list above though.

[BlindJustice]

I live in PUllman WA - SE WA St. - the City as well as
WSU cops carry Glock 17 with Ranger ammo I forgot to ask
what bullet weight. The Whitman County Sheriffs carry
Kimber 1911s in .45 ACP.

The local shops sell the Speer Gold Dot JHPs for 9MM Luger
at $18.95. About every other month I order Double Tap in 9mm
Luger, .38 Special +P and .45 ACP.

I keep the mags for my CZ 75B with the Double tap
147 Gr. Speer Gold Dot @ 1,135 FPS - 50 rds at $27.95/50 rds.

My Model 60 3" Bbl. .357 Mag. is fed DT .38 Special +P @
1,175 FPS. same price as their 9mm luger.

The 1911 gets .45 ACP Speer GD 200 gr. 1,125 FPS
- 50 rds for $33.

or WWB JHPs for 9mm or .45 ACP - I can always load the
little 60 with some .357 Mag. 125/140 gr. Hornady XTP

Oh, the 625 .45 ACP/.45 AUto RIm has a cylinder full of
225 gr. Barnes XPB HPs in .45 AR @ 900+ FPS.

Randall

[Rampant_Colt]

All of the following loads meet the FBI standardized protocols for law enforcement ammunition by unbias testing. These standards emphasis adequate penetation and expansion not only on a naked subject, but a subject that must be shot through heavy clothing or barriers. In twenty years this proven testing method and standardization has yet to be proven wrong in the field. If you don't see a particular load on this list, it likely didn't pass testing:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical Bonded 124gr+P JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124gr+P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124gr+P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127gr+P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical Bonded 135gr+P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester Ranger Bonded 147gr JHP (RA9B/Q4364) FBI LOAD

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155gr JHP
Federal Tactical Bonded 165gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical Bonded 180gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester Ranger Bonded 180gr JHP (Q4355) FBI LOAD

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230gr+P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical Bonded 230gr+P JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230gr+P JHP (RA45TP)


Notice that the lighter bullet weights don't do as well. This is due to less mass and more important reduced bullet sectional density. Sectional density is in lay terms the mass concentration over a bullet relative to its diameter. Modernized heavier weight bullets(which also have greater sectional density) perform better in simulated and real life scenarios that lighter loads do.



This ^

Forget about Hydra-Shok, Silvertips and "specialty loads" like Glaser, Magsafe and Extreme Shock..

Please view the link for proper self-defense ammunition selection from the experts:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm


Marcus,

Thanks for the list! Where did you source that from?

I suppose I should have been more clear in my original post that I was really curious what LE agencies were issuing...or what those here who have had to use their weapon in anger experienced with a particular load.
See above link

[Deanimator]

What I use:

9x19mm - Winchester White Box 147gr. JHPs from Walmart. Accurate, reliable, with excellent penetration and expansion.

.38Special/.357Magnum - .38Special Federal 158gr. LSWC-HPs +P

.40S&W - Aguila 95gr. IQs and Winchester 155gr. Ranger JHPs.

.44Special/.44Magnum - .44Special CCI Blazer 200gr. Gold Dot JHPs and Federal .44Special 200gr. LSWC-HPs

.45acp - Aguila 117gr. IQs and Hornady 200gr. TAP JHPs

[Marcus L.]

KG,

The compiled data presented on most of that page comes from the works and opinions of Dr. Martin Fackler, Dr. Gary Roberts, Duncan MacPherson, Shawn Dodson, and others. These are the experts that the Department of Defense, the National Defense Industrial Association, the FBI, and numerous other research facilities and LE/military training organizations listen to before they listen to anyone else. In other words, they know what they are talking about.

The comment on .45acp 4" barrels is indeed a very valid statement considering the nature of the .45acp cartridge. Larger charges require longer barrel lengths in order to burn a sufficient amount of powder inside the barrel to be of any benefit. In shorter barrels an excessive amount of powder is burned after leaving the muzzle which is wasted energy and leads to excessive muzzle flash and blast. This also results in significant performance loss and unreliable expansion performance. This is the same problem you get in rifle cartridges such as the 7.62 NATO. Virtually all modern .45acp loads are loaded and optimized around the 5" barrel standard and significant deviation below that standard leads to performance problems. The same thing occurs with the 9mm and .40S&W if you deviate too far below the 4" barrel standard.

In addition to bullet performance, the author also refers to "hard use" as just that....hard use. A shorter barrel also means a shorter slide. A shorter slide means less slide mass which is the best of recoil absorbers. A good quality 5" 1911 will last up to around 100k rounds. Most shortened models average only 20k-30k rounds. Increased slide velocity and dependence on recoil spring strength takes its toll on the frame and the frame internals. Breaking parts due to metal fatigue with increased pounding is a very real situation with agencies using pistols with lighter slide mass. I know, I spent several years with the Department of Interior servicing several hundred Sigs, 1911s, Glocks, and H&Ks.

[Marcus L.]

KG,

The AR15.com page that was linked is not a page created by the IWBA, or the Firearms Institute. Therefore, none of the names I listed are responsible for it and the inclusion or exclusion of information on that page does not effect the credibility of the quoted and referenced persons. The Firearms Tactical page is compiled by Shawn Dodson and contains cited reading material. Much of that material is now archived and no longer updated. The Tactical Forums boards are now the updated reference pages for terminal effects and equipment critique for law enforcement and military personel. The information I take from it a summation of the pertinent material to address a specific question.....not a complete education.

Most of us on Tactical Forums that do the reading, seek out additional professional training, and attend LE and military weapons demonstrations sometimes forget that many do not read and collectively take in the "big picture". You can believe what you wish as well KG, however if you haven't looked deeper into the matter other than snipits you find on the internet then you are clearly limited to a small scope of information or misinformation.

Can you trust Speer shortbarrel?.....yes. Keep in mind, the quote was from Dr. Roberts in 2002 before Speer shortbarrel existed. It was the very testing performed by the IWBA that showed ammunition failures when fired from short barrels that probably resulted in the creation of Speer Shortbarrel. Speer has been consulted IWBA members for years on ammunition testing. Prior to the 1987 FBI Wound Ballistics Workshop the industry tested their ammunition in water tanks which resulted in poor field performance. Once the failures of the industry's products were exposed by the FBI, it set a trend in development and testing. Just a few of the many examples of how these "experts" have influenced and continue to influence the direction of the arms market. However, reduced durability of short slide .45acps is a documented fact at the armories at FLETC and Quantico which Dr. Roberts was referring to when it comes to "hard use".

[357sigRog]

In 38 Special I use Double Tap +P 125gr gold dots in my snubbie.

[rklessdriver]

Pistols I actually use/carry for defense. All of this stuff has proven 100% reliable over many years in my pistols unless noted as otherwise.

.25ACP - My very little Baby Browning is loaded with Remington 50gr FMJ.

.32ACP - My little NAA Guardian is carried with (2 6rnd mags) of Hornady 60gr XTP and one extended (10rnd mag) of Fioochi 73gr FMJ.

9mm - I have my Glock 19, Sig P226, Sig P6, FM BHP and Beretta 92F are currently carried with Federal 9BPLE (115gr +P+). I'm thinking of switching over to Federal +P 124gr HST but the FM BHP and Sig P-6 choke on them...

.38Spl - My 1972 Colt Cobra, Smith 36 and Smith 15 (House Gun) are carried with the Remington +P 158gr LSWCHP. No plans to change from this round EVER.

.45ACP - My Smith 625, Baer PII, Colt Commander are currently carried with Federal 230gr Hydra Shok. Considering changing to the Federal 230gr HST sometime in the future if it continues to prove it self.

.44Mag- My Ruger Super Blackhawk is loaded with Hornady 300gr XTP for Bears (or Lions, Tigers, Rhino's, Semi Trucks, Trains ect).

Most of them sit in the safe until its range day but I have rotated them in my daily carry over the years (yea I'm disapointed I'm not like Keauno in the Matrix too... :neener:).

Currently I'm packing the Smith 36/Rem +P 158SWCHP combo daily. Before that it was the Colt Cobra with the same ammo.
Will

[Gun Slinger]

Across the board, I prefer and use the Hornady XTP in the heaviest weight available for the caliber that I am using.

9mm: 147 gr.
.40: 180 gr.
.45: 230 gr.
.38/.357: 158 gr.

[Marcus L.]

Across the board, I prefer and use the Hornady XTP in the heaviest weight available for the caliber that I am using.

9mm: 147 gr.
.40: 180 gr.
.45: 230 gr.
.38/.357: 158 gr.

A good decision. Hornady's XTP handgun loads have been consistantly good performers for many years. Particually with heavier bullet weights.

The Hornady XTP .380acp 90gr JHP is the only .380 JHP on the market that can reliably pass FBI testing protocols for bare body hits and against light barriers. Most other loads fall short in penetration while the Hornady load limits expansion to about .45" in order to reliably achieve 12" of penetration.

[Gun Slinger]

:) Seems that we are of like mind, Marcus.

Not to mention that the XTP seems to offer unbelieveable accuracy regardless of platform used. My Glock 17 shoots the 147 gr XTPs with "laser-like" accuracy.

Having read the book by Duncan MacPherson (who also happens to be a rocket scientist), "Bullet Penetration- Modeling the Dynamics and Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma", wherein he advocates using the heaviest bullet weight (also the highest sectional density) available for any particular caliber moving between 800 and 1000 f.p.s. (faster than that offers diminishing returns according to the author) for best results. (Summary: pp. 304-305)

While he employs The Calculus in order to support his assertions, it is still quite possible for the layperson to "read around" the significant math and gain an appreciable understanding of the underlying priciples that MacPherson establishes as the basis for his theoretical work.

For those (such as myself) who are devotees of the scientific method, not to mention confirmed "Facklerites" and advocates of the F.B.I. test "protocols", it is the book to read.

[Marcus L.]

One of the best books around on understanding terminal effects.

If anyone is interested, you can order this VERY valuable book here:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/bulletpenetration.htm

The second printing was in 2005, but most other places are sold out. Firearms Tactical ordered a bunch and have been trying to get them into the hands of civilian and LE trainers to improve the knowledge base.

[Gun Slinger]

+1

...and worth every penny.

[Dr.Rob]

I don't use .40 or 38 Special. My 9mm defense load is a 115gr Winchester Silvertip. Same point of impact as WW whitebox I can afford to practice with one load, keep the other for defense.

I shoot the silvertips once in a while to 'rotate' the ammo.

[warnerwh]

Whatever happened to Evan Marhall and his study of real shootings?

Some time ago I believe it was the FBI who came up with some sort of math to explain effectiveness. If you used a .25 acp according to their thinking you would feel better after you were shot!

I'm pretty wary of anything anybody says. Maybe new info came out in the last several years while I've been in hibernation but the info Evan Marshall came out with in his books seemed to be the best way.

[viperstarbuck]

In .40 S&W i use 135gr Corbon Pow'rball or the 165gr Gold Dots.

[Clarence]

99% of the time I carry a 1911 loaded with 230 gr Hydra-shocks.

[WardenWolf]

Depends on the situation the gun is most likely going to be used in. My car gun is a .45 loaded with FMJ's so it can punch through a car door.

[Geno]

Two weeks ago, I was Team Leader for an audit of a DPS grant (about $10.2 million).

One of the team members (Charles) was a retired Federal Agent. As we talked of CCWs, he asked what I carry. When I showed him the pictures of the recovered Winchester Personal Defense 230 grain HP slugs from the .45 ACP that I used on a boar hunt he retorted, "Man you playin' for keeps!"

I found it comical that a retired agent would think that heavy ammo. He still carries his .357 revolver.

Doc2005

[Defense Minister]

I use Double Tap ammo loaded with Speer Gold Dots in all my defensive handguns regardless of caliber. The Gold Dots have always fed well for me, and Double Tap loads 'em hot.

[SupraBo]

I always had corbons for my defense loads. They have some of the best numbers on paper.

One day we were shooting and I accidentally gave a friend my corbon mag. After a rapid fire the gun jammed (this never happen before) and I grabbed the gun and turned it upside-down. A primer fell out and for whatever reason the gun jammed from it. I grabbed my Glock 23(never jammed before also), my Corbon mag and started to rapid fire… again, the gun jammed because a bullet failure. I thought to myself, what if that was my life on the line and my gun jammed. Pretty crazy when you pay a dollar a bullet

[wep45]

heavy, short, hollow, tall...........it really doesnt matter

95% + of the posters have never been involved in a SD situation

what matters is how accurate YOU are when the time comes to get the job done

[Tom Servo]

9mm: Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P or the Black Hills version, which I find to be more accurate. And that's darned accurate :) Has functioned flawlessly in three Sigs, a P7, and two CZ's.

.45ACP: Also Black Hills, the 230gr standard-pressure load. Tested 100% with two Sig P220's and two different 1911's.

.44 Special: Georgia Arms 200gr Gold Dot loads or my own load using a Hornady 180gr XTP. Fired from a S&W L-Frame.

.38 Special: Usually the 158gr Remington Express load. This is the old LSWCHP that worked well for the FBI. It's good out of a snubby, and it really shines in a 4" K-Frame.

.357 Magnum: 125gr Black Hills. Very little muzzle-flash and manageable recoil. Again, usually out of a K-Frame.

My main criteria has never been numbers on paper or ballistic gelatin. I've gone for loads that are a) manageable, b) accurate, and most important c) reliable. These are the ones in which I'm most confident of all three factors. Your mileage may vary.

[gglass]

The Federal HST line offers the best penetration, expansion, weight retention and jacket adhesion of all the premium ammunition available today. The links below are tests sponsored by Federal but the testing was done by LE agencies.

http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

I'd rather read real data results than go on a hunch that brand-X is better.

Aside from the performance, the best part thing about HST's would be the price. It can be half the price of some premium ammo brands, due to the fact that it is priced for LE agencies.

This is how a well spent round should look:
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/344/hsttacticalle40it0.gif

[skoro]

Choice of ammo for self defense?

.38 Spec (for a Detective Special) loadings.

I use Speer 135gr +P Gold Dots and Remington Golden Sabers in my Dick Special. I'm pleased with the results.

[SJ78]

I notice on the list of good 9mm sd ammo . It list federal tactical ! is this tactical hydra shok different from the standard hydra shok ?