Slowest burning powder for 9mm


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hotwheelz
November 30, 2008, 01:50 AM
I am having troubles with my lead bullets and plated bullets in my 9mm carbine the plated bullets seem to be shredding after about 10yrds and I cannot figure out what is happening to the lead rounds they are there at 10yrds and after ????? I was told to try using a slower burning powder so I used 5.2gr of AA#5 but still haveing the same issues is there a slower powder you guys have used in your 9mm's ??? Any one else have similar issues ? I may have to go to a true Jacketed bullet but hopping to use what I have.


Bullet is a 120gr Lead .356 TC with blue angle lube or
131gr rn .356 rainier is a 38 super bullet but works well in all my 9mm's or
115 gr rn .355 rainier is a true 9mm bullet

I have used the dillon taper crip dies as well as a lee FCD. I checked they all mic. out at .380


the gun is a AR 9mm 16" barrel

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cobra2411
November 30, 2008, 02:21 AM
I would have said Accurate #5, but that's what you've tried...

I shoot my rainier 44 HP at 1150fps or so and only 2% of the time do they shred.... 5.2gr #5 should be in the 950 range...

Are your over crimping?

sargenv
November 30, 2008, 02:28 AM
Generally when plated bullets are shredding it means you are pushing them too fast. Instead of using slower powder to push them faster, you should be looking for a lighter load that does not strip the plating off of them. Plated bullets, in general, don't like to be pushed beyond about 900 fps. Some guns will shoot them, but I've found that more guns will not and the shredding is what we see most of the time. If you want to shoot them in a carbine, I'd suggest you get a case of Montana Gold jacketed bullets.. They can take the higher velocities over plated or lead bullets.

hotwheelz
November 30, 2008, 02:39 AM
cobra2411

I would have said Accurate #5, but that's what you've tried...

I shoot my rainier 44 HP at 1150fps or so and only 2% of the time do they shred.... 5.2gr #5 should be in the 950 range...

Are your over crimping?


No I dont think i am over crimping , I miked them at the crimp .380 according to manual that is perfect, is your 44 a carbine or pistol ??


sargenv
most of the time. If you want to shoot them in a carbine, I'd suggest you get a case of Montana Gold jacketed bullets.. They can take the higher velocities over plated or lead bullets.

This what I was thinking but trying to see if there are any other ideas.....

armoredman
November 30, 2008, 05:57 AM
If you're using the FCD, don't crimp before. Lead doesn't take kindly to overcrimp, and least in my limited experiance. Just use the FCD to a good taper crimp. I have used all three AAs, 2,5,and 7, and they all work well with lead in my P01. I also don't drive them to high velocity. Light plinking loads, use jacketed for your SD practice loads.

rfwobbly
November 30, 2008, 08:22 AM
Hotz -

IMHO a taper crimp on a 9mm should measure out at .377 to .378 diameter on the last 1/32 of the case. I check my taper crimp by making sure the bullet will fall completely into a cartridge gauge using only its own weight.

I think Sargenv is on the right trail for you. The longer barrel of a carbine or TCC is going to burn the powder more completely and put all the energy behind the bullet, whereas most of us shoot 4" pistol barrels. So even at the same load, you'll achieve much higher bullet speeds.

Since there is an auto action to operate in your AR, limiting the powder is going to start jamming the action. Therefore real jacketed bullets loaded hot might be the only way.

Galil5.56
November 30, 2008, 09:01 AM
If you really want to go to the slow burning edge, I can PM you published data using HS-7/WW571 and H110. It is for 125 jacketed, but you might try it with your 120 tc if it's the typical "hardcast" variety.

Curious, are your cast bullets "key-holing" when you say shredding... Never seen cast bullets shred? If key-holing, this almost always leads back to poor sizing or some other cause not allowing a proper spin. with 5.2 grains of AA#5, how is cycling?... I'd guess weak to non existant.

I like AA#5 a lot, and you will read some say it's very close to Unique in burning rate and so on, but surely NOT in my experience. AA#5 is considerably slower. For me, 5 grains of Unique and a 128 grain cast bullet gets me 1180 fps avg from my M9, and would expect 1350 or so from a 16" carbine.

Here is arecent chart I posted showing differing velocites by barrel length:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=88109&d=1227374787

FWIW, Unique and especially HS-6 have been very good to me in 9mm carbine loads with jacketed bullets driven to "normal" velocities (1200 fps in pistol, 1350 fps or so in carbine).

357mag357
November 30, 2008, 09:37 AM
What kind of carbine are you shooting? I use a Ruger PC9. I have used 4.8g of #5 using a 147g copper plated Berry Bullet with good results. I have also tried 6.5g of #7 using the same bullet and my notes say is was fast and clean. Don't have a chrono yet. I stay away from lead in the carbine because of the higher velocities and leading. Good luck.

Walkalong
November 30, 2008, 11:26 AM
I have shot Ranier 115 Gr RN plated bullets in barrels from 3" to 16" at up to 1350 plus FPS with 700X, SR-4756, AA #2, AA #5, WSF, HS-6, N320, & N330 with no problems at all.

EMP, TZ-75, Kimber Tactical Pro, Kel-Tec Sub 2000, RRA AR.

How are you crimping them? All they need is a very light taper crimp. Just remove the bell, and maybe a hair more. I have to use magnification to see my crimp on them.

I have had no issues with .40 plated bullets at up to almost 1200 FPS.

depoloni
November 30, 2008, 01:02 PM
Was curious of the same thing - what's happening when you say shred?

Haven't shot them in a longer barrel, admittedly, but contrary to what the one gentleman said about 900 fps I've never had a noticeable problem with either the 9mm 115's loaded to as high as 1200 (CZ75 5") or the 44's loaded about as high as 1280 (raging bull 8.5").

Steve C
November 30, 2008, 03:08 PM
When accuracy goes south after shooting lead the first thing to check is the guns barrel for leading and copper fouling. Leading will accumulate fast on barrels already metal fouled from jacketed bullets and in my experience the copper plated bullets can foul an already fouled barrel very quickly too. If the barrel is fouled then no change to your load will improve the accuracy. If you find much fouling make sure you remove both the lead and the copper.

Your load is rather on the light side with AA#5 so just experiment a bit with some heavier and some light loads. I'm sure you'll find one that works for you. Changing powders should not change much other than if you go to a slower powder you'll get higher velocities.

Some of the slower powders I've used for the 9 are AA#7 (developed by the Israeli's for 9mm SMG ammo), Blue Dot, and HS6.

jjohnson
November 30, 2008, 03:52 PM
Yeah, you may be pushing them a little hard, but if you're going to play with powders you have on your bench, I'd give Blue Dot a whirl. You should be able to load your plated bullets to about 90% of the jacketed loads in 9mm Luger, depending on just what bullets you're comparing to. I use Blue Dot for my Camp9 carbine, and it does well.

I'm a bit surprised that the German WWII ammo was that hot :what: goes to show you they were thinking about submachineguns, huh? Like Israeli ammo that's +P+ meant for Uzis?

SlamFire1
November 30, 2008, 04:10 PM
Normally I would not recommend Blue Dot to my worst enemy. I had very poor experiences with that powder in all sorts of calibers. But in a 9mm carbine, it might work.

Blue Dot is relatively slow burning and it really pushes the slide back hard. That is not good at all for a pistol, but a Carbine with a long barrel, might be a good thing.

I tested the stuff in a pistol, 6.5 grains Blue Dot with a 125 was OK. I never tested 7.0 grains, and I think 7.5 grs was too hot.

Got massive leading around 7.5 grains.


M92 FS Beretta Bar Sto Barrel


125 LRN Valiant .356' 6.5 grs Blue Dot S&W cases WSP
9-Apr-06 T = 59 F
Ave Vel = 1148
Std Dev = 30.87
ES = 140.6
High = 1226
Low = 1085
N = 33
v.accurate slight leading at muzzle

125 LRN Valiant .356" 7.5 grs Blue Dot S&W cases WSP OAL 1.110"
27-Mar-06 T = 60 F
Ave Vel = 1326
Std Dev = 29.81
ES = 105.2
High = 1383
Low = 1278
N = 27
leading at end of barrel

125 gr FMJ Olympic Factory
27-Mar-06 T = 61 F

Ave Vel =1261
Std Dev =20?
ES = 63.11
High = 1288
Low = 1225
N = 10

bluetopper
November 30, 2008, 06:27 PM
Have you tried Power Pistol or Universal?

hotwheelz
November 30, 2008, 07:20 PM
OK so just got back and the 115gr rn plated bullets with 4.8gr AA#5, 1000fps , the 147gr rn plated bullets with 4.0gr AA#5 were 850fps. The lead bullets wich are a 125gr tc with 3.6gr of AA#5, 750fps were a little soft didnt run the action on the gun well but were accurate I will try to build up from there. My friend brought some of his jacketed ammo " montana gold" along and it was 1300fps with out any issues were hitting hard and right on the money. I will probably pick up some jacket ammo for this gun for now and I will keep working on my lead loads.


For those asking what I mean buy shredding , IM mean its tearing the jacketing off the bullets and then the bullet getts all katty wompus. I havent seen any key holes on my targets with lead or plated it seems when pushed to hard they go off paper to where I do not know.


Steve C
When accuracy goes south after shooting lead the first thing to check is the guns barrel for leading and copper fouling. Leading will accumulate fast on barrels already metal fouled from jacketed bullets and in my experience the copper plated bullets can foul an already fouled barrel very quickly too. If the barrel is fouled then no change to your load will improve the accuracy. If you find much fouling make sure you remove both the lead and the copper.

I have run rifle bullets all the way up to 1600fps with the same lube without fouling but I did check it over and no signes of lead or copper fouling.



Walkalong
I have shot Ranier 115 Gr RN plated bullets in barrels from 3" to 16" at up to 1350 plus FPS with 700X, SR-4756, AA #2, AA #5, WSF, HS-6, N320, & N330 with no problems at all.

EMP, TZ-75, Kimber Tactical Pro, Kel-Tec Sub 2000, RRA AR.

How are you crimping them? All they need is a very light taper crimp. Just remove the bell, and maybe a hair more. I have to use magnification to see my crimp on them.

I had better luck today with 115rn and the 147gr rn rainiers part of the problem may have been using the 130gr .38 super bullets thast were a little fatter. My crimp die is set up the way lee said to set there FCD " run bullet up into die screw down the crimper until you make contact with bullet then pull bullet down screw in the crip die 1/2 to 3/4 turn and check " with mine set this way it comes out perfectly .380 and never had a problem.

Galil5.56
If you really want to go to the slow burning edge, I can PM you published data using HS-7/WW571 and H110. It is for 125 jacketed, but you might try it with your 120 tc if it's the typical "hardcast" variety.

I would like to take a look at that data thanks you sir.

Walkalong
November 30, 2008, 08:43 PM
4.8gr AA#5, 1000fps16" barrel I assume?

The Speer #13 max for AA #5 and 115 Gr jacketed is 6.8 Grs (Accurate shows 7.0) and 6.9 will get me right around 1400 FPS with a Ranier 115 Gr RN from my AR, depending on the temp. I have shot that in 99 Degree weather not long ago.

This load is safe in my guns with my load procedure. Reduce at least 10% and work up. The old Accurate data with the Ranier 115 Gr plated RN only goes to 5.8 @ 30,700 CUP. They do, however, go to 7.0 with the Ranier 115 Gr HP @ 33,300 CUP

Galil5.56
November 30, 2008, 08:55 PM
Hotwheelz,

Data sent.

hotwheelz
November 30, 2008, 08:58 PM
Walkalong
16" barrel I assume?


Ye it is a AR 9mm 16" barrel

Marlin 45 carbine
December 1, 2008, 09:53 AM
I have a Marlin Camp 9 (.45acp also) I've never had any luck with cast slugs in them, I used Bullseye as in my pistols for cast slugs.
I'm interested in finding a cheaper alternative, I tryed some plated from Midway in my .45 Camp accuracy wasn't there.
the Marlin has the MicroGroove rifleing that may be the problem with cast or plated? any ideas?

AgentAdam
December 1, 2008, 04:57 PM
Could be wrong lead hardness,wrong bullet to bore size, or even wrong length/weight bullets for your barrels twist rate.

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