What is the point of the 9mm carbine?


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nachosgrande
November 30, 2008, 11:38 PM
Not trying to be nasty here, just want to know. I can't think of a situation where there isn't a better weapon for the job at every distance, for any type of hunting, or even for tactical work. I want to buy one because they look cheap and fun to shoot, and I need a decent excuse.

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Sinixstar
November 30, 2008, 11:39 PM
sometimes there is no "need".

Auburn1992
November 30, 2008, 11:40 PM
Well; for number one Because you can...

Why have a 30-30 when you can get a 30-06... etc., etc.

ugaarguy
November 30, 2008, 11:41 PM
Cheap ammo, may use same ammo as your pistol, and very controllable recoil. 9mm also gets quite a bit of velocity built up from the longer barrel.

MIL-DOT
November 30, 2008, 11:42 PM
You ever get a chance to play with an Uzi, and you may re-think that question !! :D

Frog48
November 30, 2008, 11:43 PM
For a while, there was a school of thought in law enforcement circles that a department issued carbine that shared ammo and magazines with the dept issued pistol would be a good idea.

However, I dont understand the logic. I cant see any reason for it. Why not just use the pistol to begin with? If you're in a situation that requires the added range or power of a rifle, a 9mm carbine wont be adequate. If bad guys are wearing body armor, 9mm out of a carbine will not be any more effective than a 9mm pistol. You need a centerfire rifle caliber for that job.

praharin
December 1, 2008, 12:07 AM
heres what i have come up with: originally, they were designed to reduce (over)penetration of (relatively) primitive bullet technology. also they ease logistical burdens when you are already using a 9mm handguns, very low recoil, much improved terminal performance due to increased velocity when using appropriate ammo, and easier to shoot accuratly.

thats just a short list that came to me while i was reading. im sure there are a few more reasons.

in these days of frangible ammo, there isnt really anything that a 9mm can do that a 5.56 SBR couldnt do as well or better

X-Rap
December 1, 2008, 12:17 AM
In the last year I have changed my mind on the pistol caliber carbine, this is mostly due to the purchase of a couple sub 2000's.
I am this month forced to leave my handguns at home while I travel to NY. The Sub seems to be the perfect alternative with its compact package and although I can't have it loaded with me all the time it will be nice to have in the truck and motel compared to nothing. The interchangeability of the mags with a pistol is also a plus when in a permissive environment since I can certainly hit further with the carbine and while it doesn't replace the rifle it beats the handgun.

Dienekes
December 1, 2008, 12:22 AM
Check out the Kel-Tec Sub-2000 and think about it. Very compact, milk-jug accurate at 100 yards, and .357-like velocities from a 16" barrel. Not a rifle, but probably three times as efficient as a 9mm pistol out beyond 35 yards. A few of those in capable hands over at Mumbai (a fantasy, I know) would have been damned useful.

My M4gery is even better, but it doesn't fold in half and fit in a briefcase.

Coronach
December 1, 2008, 12:23 AM
If you're in a situation that requires the added range or power of a rifle, a 9mm carbine wont be adequate.Power, probably. Range, not necessarily. Remember there is a difference between the effective distance of the cartridge and the practical effective distance of the shooter/weapon combination. As in, I can shoot a shoulder-fired ANYTHING a lot more accurately at long range than I can my pistol.If bad guys are wearing body armor, 9mm out of a carbine will not be any more effective than a 9mm pistol. You need a centerfire rifle caliber for that job.I pretty much agree with this. Sure, headshots with a 9mm carbine are easier than headshots with a 9mm pistol, yadda yadda, but COM shots with a true rifle are easier than both of those, and probably more effective, too.

If you're looking at "combat effectiveness", the semi-auto pistol-caliber carbine fills a pretty small niche, mostly created by legalities and economics. However, not every gun exists for combat effectiveness. Some are just plain fun to shoot.

Mike

JohnKSa
December 1, 2008, 12:26 AM
A shoulder fired weapon is FAR superior to a handgun when it comes to putting lead on target rapidly.

The size/weight and the fact that it's shoulder fired reduces the muzzle climb considerably and the increased sight radius (or increased sighting options) means that it's much more accurate than a typical handgun.

Also, nearly anyone can learn to operate a light carbine in the the service pistol caliber class proficiently--hand strength issues, low recoil tolerance, eye dominance, etc. all play much less important roles in long guns than in handguns.

R.W.Dale
December 1, 2008, 12:28 AM
I want to buy one because they look cheap and fun to shoot, and I need a decent excuse.

If that were the case every pistol would be a .40 glock

every bolt gun would be a 30-06

every semiauto would be an AR

and every shotgun would be a 12ga 870

excuses are for henpecked husbands and people with lots of credit card debt

Retro
December 1, 2008, 12:34 AM
I once asked the same question, and a friend of mine who is in the NAVY SEALS told me that 9 mm Carbine are designed for automatic fire in CQB situations, where combat rifles are meant to be used in a semi-auto mode. Full auto pistols are hard to control and have more wear on the frames than the carbines, and thus 9 mm carbines such as the Uzi and MP5s are designed to pump a lot of lead to an intended target without much recoil in short distances. Plus the added velocity and accuracy of a longer barreled weapon within 25 yards.

Kind of Blued
December 1, 2008, 12:37 AM
It's definitely a niche gun.

A suppressed, three-round burst, high capacity, compact 9mm carbine with a light and optic would make for one hell of a home defense rig. ;)

zombienerd
December 1, 2008, 01:03 AM
I'm picking up my 9MM Masterpiece Arms Mac-11 clone carbine here in a week or two as soon as my X-Mas bonus arrives...

My reasons:
1) Shares Ammo with my pistol
2) Looks totally awesome
3) Perfect length for HD
4) Great for target shooting without super expensive ammo
5) Looks totally awesome
6) Cheaper than most other EBR's
7) Takes plenty of "tacticool" addons
8) Hearing my dad say "That's an assault rifle, why the @#$% would you need 30 round in one mag?" While keeping ammo cheap, gun price cheap, and still be an effective HD/Target gun.

The list could go on for a while...

But honestly, you really don't need a "reason"... :)

Loggerlee
December 1, 2008, 01:05 AM
Thinking about buying one so the smaller in stature can have something more powerful than a .22,and not get the stuffing kicked out of them when they pull the trigger.
(my daughter)

Number 6
December 1, 2008, 01:46 AM
The closest outdoor range to me is an hour away. The nearest indoor range is five minutes away, but only allows pistol calibers. A pistol caliber carbine fits a niche for those of us that are trapped in suburbia, but want a practice with a carbine.

bang_bang
December 1, 2008, 01:50 AM
I'm really wanting one of the Kel Tec 9mm Carbines. But if a Hi-Point comes along for the right price, it's mine.

Deer Hunter
December 1, 2008, 01:53 AM
If Keltec would make a 9mm carbine that takes CZ75 mags, I'd be all over that.

briansmithwins
December 1, 2008, 02:06 AM
Some of the matches I shoot only allow pistol calibers. I can get practice time with a long gun that I can't do with a rifle.

Ammo (9mmP) that's 1/2 the price of 5.56 NATO is a bonus too.

That the Uzi looks evil isn't a consideration, really.

BSW

jerkface11
December 1, 2008, 02:14 AM
I've got an Olympic 9mm carbine that takes Glock mags. I love the thing.

Girodin
December 1, 2008, 02:25 AM
I like the sub 2000 because it folds in half and can easily stowaway in a computer bag. None of my rifles can do that. 9mm carbines are fun plinkers that aren't too expensive to shoot and can match the mags (in some cases) and ammo of a side arm. I do agree for just about any other serious use i would rather have a rifle caliber weapon or shotgun.

evan price
December 1, 2008, 02:41 AM
One range near me has 100-yards as the longest range. Shooting targets on the backstop with a full scoped rifle gets, well, boring. Shooting them with a 9mm carbine is challenging again. Plus you can take it to the pistol range and have a blast.

How many ARs can fold up into a briefcase? Sub2K can do it!

expvideo
December 1, 2008, 02:54 AM
suppressability

FourTeeFive
December 1, 2008, 05:18 AM
Cheap ammo, may use same ammo as your pistol, and very controllable recoil. 9mm also gets quite a bit of velocity built up from the longer barrel.

And combined with the previous post, you can suppress it. And, as someone mentioned, you can even use the same magazines as a pistol that you might carry (the Olympic Arms 9mm carbine that uses Glock magazines, for example).

Shooting one of these at a range will make a quick convert out of a lot of people. Very easy to be much more accurate with a carbine than with a pistol. At least for your average shooter.

JDGray
December 1, 2008, 07:55 AM
My RRA 9mm is hands down my favorite gun to shoot! It actually kicks a bit harder than my .223 AR. My CZ75 hasn't been out since I bought the AR, its getting lonely in the gun safe:p These things are just plain fun to shoot, hitting 4" spinners at 50yrds is a breeze.

Will Fennell
December 1, 2008, 08:53 AM
I'm convinced the 9mm Storm Carbine was created to make my wife happy. Her first shoulder fired rifle shooting experience[pre meeting me] was a CAR 15, and the noise really turned her off. Last year she had a chance to demo a Beretta Storm, and instantly fell in love with the lightweight, ease of handling, low recoil, low NOISE, and serious fun factor:D

We now have a Storm in 9mm, with surefire attached and 20 round mag, in the by the bed for her, and she looks forward to every chance she gets to take it to the range.

That is plenty reason for it to exist as far as I'm concerned;)

jjohnson
December 1, 2008, 09:31 AM
Yes, because you can. There is not pressing "need."

I've had a Marlin Camp9 for a decade, and it's a hoot to shoot. It's handy, reasonably accurate for what it its, and has a bit more 'oomph' than a .22 by a fair margin.

No, it's not a great Law Enforcement choice, it's not a long range varmint gun, it's absolutely not a deer hunter's rifle. But it IS fun to shoot, and anything in the "coyote-sized" class of varmints and such are in definite jeopardy when within 100 yards because you just might nail one.

Just like .22s we shoot for fun - no real need - but it is fun.

tinygnat219
December 1, 2008, 09:44 AM
What I want to see is the Kel-Tec Sub 2000 upgraded to 10 MM and let it take Glock magazines.

Hostile Amish
December 1, 2008, 09:45 AM
Generally, they're very fun to shoot. I have never used one for this purpose, but it would probably be a good home defense gun.

WC145
December 1, 2008, 01:14 PM
+1 on the SUB-2000's. I keep mine in my gear bag in the passenger seat. It is accurate, reliable, has a longer effective range than my sidearm and uses the same mags. I had no trouble qualifying on the patrol rifle course with it. If I need more than my pistol but can't get to my AR-15 it is a handy, quick to deploy option that is good for head shots at 50yds off hand.

rondog
December 1, 2008, 03:29 PM
What is the point of the 9mm carbine?
Why does there have to be a "point"? They're FUN, what more do you need? Not every gun has to have a combat or self-defense purpose. Go set up a couple hundred soda/beer cans full of water and start busting them with a 9mm carbine, I guarantee you'll be giggling like an idiot before you're done.:D

lipadj46
December 1, 2008, 03:37 PM
They (like the Hi Point 995) are good small, light, fast, cheap firearms for HD for people who don't have a pistol permit or live in areas where it is hard to get a pistol permit. Plus they are fun and cheap to feed.

kiawahman
December 1, 2008, 10:08 PM
My 995 shares ammo with my Taurus PT111 Mil-Pro but more than triples the effective range of a pistol with pinpoint accuracy, while at almost half the cost.

And the wife is comfortable shooting it...

wcwhitey
December 1, 2008, 10:28 PM
I would love a reasonably priced 16" 9mm AR upper for my wife. She likes my M4 but does have some issues with the recoil and blast. Problem is by the time you get all set up (mags, upper, etc) the price is prohibitive. I am also wishing for a 7.62X25 version of the same thing. Probably won't happen for a while, I think the AR builders are a little busy right now.

dispatch55126
December 1, 2008, 10:44 PM
This is the same question as "Do you need 5 shotguns, 10 rifles and a dozen pistols?".

Is it going to put dinner on the table or drop a deer? No, but it is a cheap plinker to take to the range when you can't feed your AR or 30-06.

Personally, I'd like a MP5 clone just for the sake of it.

I LIKE IT!
December 1, 2008, 10:46 PM
For fun?

The 9mm AR blow-back operation is some fun plinking.:evil:

rfurtkamp
December 1, 2008, 10:54 PM
For indoor use I'd much rather have something without the bark of a 8" or less barrelled rifle cartridge gun - the thought of firing my V51 indoors without a suppressor is something that makes me deaf just thinking about it. I have a .308 can but it adds weight and OAL to a point where it loses the pointability indoors I want in a HD gun.

I'm good with a pistol, but comparatively for accuracy and followup shots, I look like a drunken, half-blind conscript if I compare my pistol vs. carbine times and groups.

After 25m it gets even more pronounced.

The other point is there are times I'd like to bring something with a longer reach than a pistol but don't have room for a rifle, especially in ready to fire configuration. The K may be bigger than a pistol, but it's remarkably small for a carbine, and will fit in a laptop case or shoulder holster.

I also get to practice on a platform with the same manual of arms as my go-to carbine paying for 9mm vs .308, meaning far more practice time at a much cheaper cost.

It's also a hell of a lot more fun for me as a plinking gun than a .22 and about as cheap as can be had with a centerfire cartridge.

Of course, my taste in 9mm carbines runs to the extravagantly expensive. My old lady stole my Uzi, so I had to go one up and get a MP5-PDW clone made up:

http://media.furtkamp.com/mp5kpdw-right-open.jpg

MaterDei
December 1, 2008, 10:58 PM
Try one out and you'll soon know all that you need to know. They're fun!

The Deer Hunter
December 1, 2008, 11:23 PM
If bad guys are wearing body armor

I think if the bad guy has body armor, you have a lot more than a cartridge selection problem.

monkyboy1975
December 1, 2008, 11:29 PM
They are fun,accurate (granted homely) little firearms to shoot!

The Deer Hunter
December 2, 2008, 12:06 AM
Yeah, I guess if you just want to plink away all day with a rifle, but don't need the power of something like .308, and don't want to pay so much for ammo.

trackaddict88
December 2, 2008, 02:54 AM
What I want to see is the Kel-Tec Sub 2000 upgraded to 10 MM and let it take Glock magazines.

Oooh!:what::D Me too!

BHP FAN
December 2, 2008, 04:18 AM
X-Rap said ''while it doesn't replace the rifle it beats the handgun...''
that about sums it up.At one time I had a 469 S&W,and a Marlin Camp Carbine.Because I can be,at times,an idiot [like when I see a new gun I want,and have no money]I got rid of both.The chief advantage was that they shared magazines.

John Wayne
December 2, 2008, 04:25 AM
Well, if you think of it in terms of a rifle, you'll be disappointed. Think of it more as a "two-handed pistol."

The Kel-Tec probably has the biggest edge in this category. It's small enough to be carried just about anywhere, unlike other 9mm carbines which are almost as long as rifle-caliber carbines.

NC-Mike
December 2, 2008, 08:34 AM
For fun?

The 9mm AR blow-back operation is some fun plinking.

I'm slightly underwhelmed with mine, I like it and all that but including a dozen mags and a Bushnell Red Dot, I spent over 1,200 on my Olympic setup.

It is fun to plink with but they eat ammo like candy! :uhoh:

You could blow through 500 rounds in an hour with great ease and still want to shoot it some more. :p

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g312/Mike____Smith/Collection/9mmARReceiver-1.jpg

mgkdrgn
December 2, 2008, 08:51 AM
I need a decent excuse.

Kind of in the same boat you are. I have two handguns ... one in 9mm and one in 45 Colt. I'm thinking that a rifle/carbine in one of the handgun rounds would make a nice addition to the collection and extend my "range" a bit.

Advantages:
1) limit the different types of ammo I have to buy/store/transport, make better use of bulk purchases
2) if the carbine uses Glock mags, so much the better, I already have them, including the 30+ round ones.
3) already mentioned ... extended range beyond normal pistol range. I really don't need to hit anything beyond 100 yards 'cause I don't have the visual acuity to sight targets much beyond that range anyway.

Now the dilemma is 9mm or 45 Colt. More punch with 45 Colt (possibly), but the ammo is harder to find and much more expensive. (reloads?) No semi-auto in 45 Colt. Some nice looking lever guns and short stroke pumps in 45 Colt.

9mm to be effective at range would probably have to be P+. Ammo easier to come by, and as stated I already have mags. Guns are, for the most part, butt ugly EBR's (but what the hell, so is my Glock :evil: ), but lighter than the 45 Colt entries, easier to transport. All semi-auto.

Decisions decisions ....

Walkalong
December 2, 2008, 10:52 AM
I want to buy one because they look cheap and fun to shoot, and I need a decent excuse.
You have your reason then. Seriously. They are a butt load of fun and cheap to shoot.

That said, I would feel very well armed with my 9MM AR, not as well armed as if I had my AR in 5.56, but I would be comfortable hitting fairly small targets at 100 yards and at least fending off an attack, if not stopping it instantly.

My Kel-Tec Sub-2000 in 9MM would be a close up proposition, 50 yards and on max.

Mannlicher
December 2, 2008, 10:58 AM
other than plinking fun, I never saw any need for a pistol caliber semi auto carbine.

I do, however, love my lever guns in .44 Mag and .357 Mag. Those are useful.

gnut
December 3, 2008, 07:49 PM
Magic Dragon, I like the word "acuity"
Thanks

gnut
December 3, 2008, 07:55 PM
oh and yea Kel-Tec needs to do some expansion of the sub2000.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 3, 2008, 08:00 PM
No point; just a fun lead hose. Lack of recoil makes it fun. If it ain't suppressed and/or full-auto, then there's some other gun of the same size which will do the job better, due to better cartridge.

zorro45
December 3, 2008, 09:05 PM
1.can shoot at most indoor ranges
2.very reliable feeding because of slightly trapezoidal shape of case
3.cheaper than 45 ammo
4.fits in vehicle better
5.will never ever be confused w/ a "sporting" arm

rob_s
December 3, 2008, 09:53 PM
Some of the statements in this thread make me wonder if people have ever even seen a 9mm carbine or subgun fired, let alone fired or owned one themselves.

If you want a suppressed VSBR (very short barrel rifle) 9mm is the way to go. A 7.5" barrel 5.56 AR will be a nice way to make .22 caliber holes in your target and not much else, and will almost certainly not get up to a sufficient velocity for the projectile to perform as designed. Further hamstring it by intentionally downloading the round to be subsonic and you might as well keep an icepick for home defense.

A 9mmm VSBR, however, is shooting projectiles from a barrel even longer than what they were designed for yet can still keep a 147 grain HP subsonic AND the projectile is designed to expand at those velocities.

Also, the idea that a 9mm carbine is incapable of making hits out to 100 + yards makes me scratch my head. We used to have two guys come out to our matches with Mini Uzis and get hits on 8" steel plates at over 100 yards. Made a believer out of me, and if they can do it with that gun, anyone can do it with a 9mm AR.

kiawahman
December 3, 2008, 10:12 PM
Well said rob_s.

coondawg47
December 3, 2008, 11:29 PM
9mm carbines can be effective out too 200 yards (with practice). I have a Hi point carbine and a Kel tec sub2000. Shooting both rifles from the prone position with a sandbag rest I can hit 1 Gal milk jugs easily at 200 yards with both rifles, off hand is another story. The 26 inches of bullet drop is what makes the practice necessary. Most shooters that tried this would probably get a hit on round two if they new the bullet drop before hand and used all of the shooting fundementals. I consider both of my carbines to be 100 yard guns. I still shoot them at 200 yards occasionally (usually when someone doesn't believe they can get consistent hits that far out).

browningguy
December 3, 2008, 11:51 PM
Well a 9mm carbine may not be the best for any given situation, however it's pretty useful from 0-100 yards, musch farther than I can accurately shoot a 9mm pistol. My little Sub 2000 folds up and fits nicely in a briefcase with four 33 round mags, what's not to like?

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 3, 2008, 11:55 PM
A 7.5" barrel 5.56 AR will be a nice way to make .22 caliber holes in your target and not much else, and will almost certainly not get up to a sufficient velocity for the projectile to perform as designed.

Yes, while that may be true, we have to ask ourselves, why would anyone want a 7.5" bbled rifle of ANY caliber, for ANY reason, at ANY time? When the gun isn't concealable anyway, why do we need a barrel shorter than 14 or 16"? Other than strictly coolness factor? A .500 S&W subgun might be the way to go for 1" SBR, too, but neither it nor a 7.5" gun in 9mm or any other caliber makes any sense (to me anyway). :p

Having said all that, I agree with your proposition that IF (and only if) it is a suppressed weapon, AND/OR a select-fire weapon (and especially if both), then a 9mm subgun with 147 subsonics makes a lot of sense for a CQB fighting gun. But the short barrel is not needed. A LONG barrel is not needed either, but a suppressed 9mm is probably optimized around a 10 or 12" bbl. Nothing wrong with SBRs, but point is: Suppressed weapons are needed for certain applications; short barreled weapons aren't really needed; so IF the application does not call for a level of silence/low profile, then it makes far more sense to use an intermediate caliber carbine, with a 14+ inch barrel. Just my opinion anyway.

Edit: Actually, rob s, the more I think about it, the more I think what I just said in previous paragraph is incorrect, and the more I'm coming around to your way of thinking on this, at least for a suppressed activity, simply because it doesn't take even 7.5" of barrel length, let alone 10", to push a 147 gr 9mm round up to its max velocity while still remaining subsonic (around 1,050 fps), and so that being the case, why NOT have a shorter, handier, more maneuverable barrel length, as long as you're going to do the SBR thing anyway. But again, if you're gonna get the suppressor, too, then everything you say makes sense. If you're not, and the whole world for 1 mile in any direction is gonna know you're shooting, may as well use a 16" EBR/carbine (intermediate caliber).

Is a 9mm flat and accurate to 100 yards plus? Oh, you'd better believe it. I hit the 100 yard 1/2 size pig with regularity with pistols, and a carbine adds much more to your practical accuracy (due to shoulder stock & sight radius).

Now, think on this with me (if you haven't already). If your suppressed pistol caliber carbine of choice is .45 acp, not 9x19mm, then it *does* take 10-12 or more inches of bbl length (I believe) to get a 230 grainer whizzing along at 1,050, so while the 7.5 SBR might make sense with 9mm, I'd prefer to maximize my velocity the most possible while still remaining subsonic, and have the bigger oomph of the .45 acp. In fact, the Kriss Super V, if they would make it into a bullpup, slap about a 12" bbl and a suppressor on it - we'd be cookin with butane then! :)

Alpine Storm
December 4, 2008, 12:28 AM
They were designed for urban areas where the trajectory of a 5.56 is not desirable. With my .45 Nexus suppressor, it sounds like a .22 even with standard ammo. And although I haven't clocked them, I would bet that you are getting another 200 fps out of the 16" barrel. (vs 4")

People always say that the 9mm isn't that devastating of a round. It's plenty violent. I did a little test with several layers of Levis and a Christmas ham. Shooting it lengthwise, it sailed clean through, and made a dramatic exit. Two in the sternum would put any intruder right on his fanny.

I shoot mine in Training as it is much less expensive to feen than my other ARs'

rob_s
December 4, 2008, 07:15 AM
Edit: Actually, rob s, the more I think about it, the more I think what I just said in previous paragraph is incorrect, and the more I'm coming around to your way of thinking on this, at least for a suppressed activity, simply because it doesn't take even 7.5" of barrel length, let alone 10", to push a 147 gr 9mm round up to its max velocity while still remaining subsonic (around 1,050 fps), and so that being the case, why NOT have a shorter, handier, more maneuverable barrel length, as long as you're going to do the SBR thing anyway. But again, if you're gonna get the suppressor, too, then everything you say makes sense. If you're not, and the whole world for 1 mile in any direction is gonna know you're shooting, may as well use a 16" EBR/carbine (intermediate caliber).

Basically this is what I was getting at.

When I bought my first 5.56 SBR, the only reason I bought it was to be able to mount a can and still be shorter than a 16" AR (http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/two%20carbines/DSC_1762-Small.jpg).

However, I started using the SBR without the can and came around to how nice and handy the rifle is with an SBR barrel on it and bought another SBR (http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/6933-02.jpg) to leave unsuppressed.

I originally thought that the only reason to have an SBR at all was to put a can on it and still be under 16" of barrel. I no longer think that way. There are maneuverability advantages to an SBR or VSBR when working indoors. Some people inevitably reply "why not just use a pistol?", and the answer is that you can get better, faster, more accurate hits with a carbine with a red-dot on it than you can with a pistol. I see this month in and month out at our two-gun matches where a guy is getting good hits with his carbine and then transitions to pistol and misses the same target completely.

Now, think on this with me (if you haven't already). If your suppressed pistol caliber carbine of choice is .45 acp, not 9x19mm, then it *does* take 10-12 or more inches of bbl length (I believe) to get a 230 grainer whizzing along at 1,050, so while the 7.5 SBR might make sense with 9mm, I'd prefer to maximize my velocity the most possible while still remaining subsonic, and have the bigger oomph of the .45 acp. In fact, the Kriss Super V, if they would make it into a bullpup, slap about a 12" bbl and a suppressor on it - we'd be cookin with butane then!

The suppressed .45 SBR is a nice idea, but in practice .45 doesn't tend to suppress as well as 9mm (due to the large bore size, or so I'm told), and the obvious lack of any common .45 carbines to SBR puts a damper on the plan as well.

Barring any legal concerns etc. my first pick for an indoor gun would be a 7.5" 9mm AR carbine with a Surefire X300 and an Aimpoint. There is a greater issue of potential wall penetration with the 9mm but that is a totally separate concern.

Speedo66
December 4, 2008, 11:10 AM
"I did a little test with several layers of Levis and a Christmas ham"

Any comments from your guests about the extra holes in the ham? :uhoh:

Hey, the K-T Sub2k is fun, what other justification do you need?

Any other uses are just icing on the cake.

ultradoc
December 4, 2008, 11:13 AM
A buddy of mine has a 9mm high Point [I think] and he hates it. It's cheap and it jams.

rondog
December 4, 2008, 12:23 PM
A buddy of mine has a 9mm high Point [I think] and he hates it. It's cheap and it jams.

I see you're in Ohio, is your buddy also? I think Hi-Points are made in Ohio, why doesn't he take advantage of the H-P lifetime warranty and let them fix it for him? I certainly would, it's probably something simple. Might even be an earlier version that had some known problems, they might even completely replace it, they've been known to do that.

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