They're not all profiteers!


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ugly old guns
December 1, 2008, 12:27 AM
Was at the gunshow at Bridgeton, MO yesterday, and CMMG was there. Their prices were in line with what I saw six months ago, and they had a full line of accessorieswith them, including mags at pre election prices. When I have the cash, my next gun is coming from them. I don't even like ar-15's! Nice to see stand up guys still, and nice to see the gloomy looks on the faces of the guys selling Colt sporters for 2100$, and WASR's for 700$.

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mbpautz762
December 1, 2008, 12:32 AM
I've always found CMMG to be professional and down-to-earth. I dealt them when I received the wrong upper receiver on a rifle I ordered. they were very nice and accommodating and although it took a while because the uppers were on backorder, everything was fixed on their dime. plus the rifle was immaculate. If I get another ar15, it'll probably be from them. :)

Glock River
December 1, 2008, 01:24 AM
I just got one of their stripped lowers about two weeks ago.

expvideo
December 1, 2008, 01:32 AM
I just got one of their stripped lowers about two weeks ago.
Me too. I have a CMMG parts kit in the mail. I'm really excited. It looks like I found a really good company to do business with. I hope they start producing 9mms again, because if I am impressed with the 5.56 rifle, I'm going to try to go exclusively with them in the future.

moooose102
December 1, 2008, 07:48 AM
good to hear! i HATE profiteers with a passion! and dont give me any of this "supply and demand" garbage. the guys who do this are just plain greedy!

rduckwor
December 1, 2008, 08:41 AM
Good for them. Nice to know not everyone gouges just because they can.

RMD

TX1911fan
December 1, 2008, 09:13 AM
If you knew your company was going out of business and you would no longer have a job, and you thought, "maybe I should bail now and get another job while I can" but your boss came to you and said, "we'll pay you double your salary to stay." Would you stay? If you did stay, would you refuse the money? if you take the money, are you greedy? Are you profiteering? These guys are facing extinction, so I don't think it's unreasonable for them to try and set aside a little extra for those days when their sales will be zero. If people are willing to pay it, what is the problem? If your skill set was all of the sudden in huge demand, would you be greedy for getting paid the most you can get paid?

CU74
December 1, 2008, 11:27 AM
If you knew your company was going out of business and you would no longer have a job, ......... "we'll pay you double your salary to stay." Would you stay?

In a word, NO. Salary is only one employment variable. IMHO, staying with a company that is going out of business just for some extra money is pretty short-sighted.

M203Sniper
December 1, 2008, 12:17 PM
Does anyone have a link?

doc540
December 1, 2008, 12:29 PM
http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?cart=1377901&cat=1&

John_galt
December 1, 2008, 01:10 PM
:banghead:You don't like the price of any good or service - don't buy it! You are not entitled to anything at any price other than what someone is willing to sell it.:fire:

If these guys want to stay in business they have to replace their inventory. The retail price of a product is not what they paid for it but what they have to pay to replace it. To do otherwise they massively increase the cost of business by having to finance their inventory. These people who own small businesses for the most part are just like anyone else, they want to make the best living they can and stay in business. The free market will always take care of itself, as long as no one meddles with it (like the government listening to people whining about a "fair price"). If they truly are artificailly raising prices, people stop buying, they hurt themselves by driving away customers to someone who provides the same or better service or product at a lower price. That "supply and demand garbage" as it was called is how capitalism works. The price is determined by what someone is willing to pay. The thing about capitalism is it is the prerequisite for freedom. Try living in a country that sets wages and prices.

So if someone holds there prices low, or even takes a hit on a given item, but can weather the losses - good for them and us. By all means patronize them with your money. They are taking a gamble. They will either drive the competition out of business if they can outlast them (but they better have deep pockets or a banker with a great sense of humor). Then someone will be whining about the shop that undercuts everyone else. Or they will go out of business themselves because they aren't able to stock their shelves once they've emptied them at below market prices. Everyone seems to want someone to keep prices low/unchanged, then when it is done these same poeple start whining about how Walmart is unfairly driving people out of business.

The beauty of America is you don't have to do business with anyone you don't want to. Don't like the service, price or product - spend your money elsewhere. If we act as if we are entitled to a particular product or service because we think the price should be "set" at a certain level thought to be fair we are starting to think like socialists/communists. Whose business are we going to start complaining and lecturing to next about their unfair prices? And by the way who gets to set that price? Based on what? Who do you look to to decide what is fair? The government? God help us all!

One last thing - any of you think it so unfair - put you money where your mouth is and sell your AR for the price from 6-12 months ago. I'll buy it, so would 90+% of everyone on here. Because I don't see anyone listing an AR for a private sale here for what they paid for it let alone reflecting a used price. Are you going to rail on the private sale listings here for gouging too?

OK, thats it I am done now. Feel much better. I know some of you are going to blast me for this post, so be it. You are wasting you time. I don't care. :)

HOME DEPOT GEORGE
December 1, 2008, 06:16 PM
So I guess it's okay when a gas station sells gas for 7$ a gallon or ice for 15$ a bag or even 20$ a case for water right after a hurricane passes. There's a line between capitalism and profiteering and I'm sorry to say quite a few of these companies have crossed that line. 1000 round cases of wolf ammo going up 30 or 40% is a joke as raw material prices have been dropping like a rock for months and the prices of crap wasr 10 ak-47's going up by double on speculation of a weapons ban that might never happen. Or how about some of these places doubling the prices for mags,maybe I missed something did the cost of labor to manufacture these mags double overnight it sure isn't the prices of the raw materials. I still use natchez.com for my ammo as they have kept their prices steady even on mags and johnmasen.com has kept there prices steady also. What we really need to do here is set up a thread to list online companies that have kept their prices steady during this irrational panic. Here's a few http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=8495&dir=18|830|845 http://www.johnmasen.com/index.html http://www.natchezss.com/ammo.cfm?contentID=ammoGroup&ammoGroup=2&searchBy=size&ammoSize=266

Grayrider
December 1, 2008, 06:29 PM
True I work for DSA, and my bosses there decided to hold prices. I am proud of that decision and think it was the fair and honorable thing to do. But I can sympathize with businesses that may be facing the end of the line with Obama. I think many companies and gun shops believe that the end is near so to speak, and are just trying to go out with as much profit as possible. Is it fair to their customers, perhaps not. But they may just be trying to put food on the table for a few months while they find something else to do for a living. I certainly think that is the case with a lot of the gun shops raising prices. My local dealer said to me "how am I going to stay in business if I cannot get any guns?" His shop makes most of its money on police/military type firearms and accessories. Not only may that all be banned, but due to the panic they cannot get inventory. It is like they had the next year of sales all in a couple weeks. What do they do for the next however many months while they wait for inventory? I suppose you could argue that they put the money in the bank and divvy it out over those months. The math works, but is that really the same thing as steady spread out sales? Will the customers keep coming back after their inventory is rebuilt? Will they even be able to sell those guns legally then?

A lot of variables to consider if your livelihood and that of your employees is on the line. I am not making excuses for price gouging, I am just saying that many businesses depending on this industry are not looking at an optimistic future. Add to that an economy that already had sales way down....

John

expvideo
December 1, 2008, 06:34 PM
John Galt wrote:
...Or they will go out of business themselves because they aren't able to stock their shelves once they've emptied them at below market prices.


CMMG is a manufacturer, so restocking them costs as much as it did before the buying panic. They happen to sell their products directly, but they are a manufacturer first and a retailer second. Since the actual prices of the materials used to manufacture the product has not changed significantly, it will not cost them any more to resupply than it did before the election rush.

eta:

In fact, they may be able to manufacture the product at even lower cost, since demand has risen to a level that they will need to manufacture more rifles than they regularly do, which may get them better bulk deals on materials. I'm just speculating on that, though.

CoRoMo
December 1, 2008, 07:04 PM
I've heard it explained this way...

Lets say a hurricane hits, oh... I don't know, New Orleans, and the power grid is interrupted for the foreseeable future.
Only two stores in the area (separate towns) stock generators, and each have only six generators in their stock.
'A' Town:
Local farm and ranch 'Store A' keeps the price as is. Their price is $300 each.
'B' Town:
Local farm and ranch 'Store B' decides to increase the price exponentially. Their price is $1,800 each.

Follow me here...

So, a man in A town scrapes together $1,800 bucks and wonders over to store A and buys every last generator they have. Sets them all up, and his house is now purring along like it was before the storm. Nobody else in town is able to buy a generator because he decided to buy them all, and now,he has them all. He sits in comfort as everybody else just has to suffer through.:(

A man in B town also wants several generators to run his house, but when he visits store B, he finds a very high price on their generators. He can only scrape together enough money for one generator and decides to just buy it for his fridge and freezer, and he can then get by just fine. A number of other families are able to pull together $1,800 and each get a generator, and their urgent needs are met as well.:)

Seems like "gouging" actually helped out a community spread the resources through the populace rather than produce hoarding.

End of the story goes like this...

Those without, complain about the evil business, and they press charges of price gouging. The authorities round up the generators that cost $1,800 and their sales records. They place all of this evidence in secure storage for the pending trial. Nobody in that community got to enjoy a powered fridge or freezer.:(

expvideo
December 1, 2008, 07:13 PM
A man in B town also wants several generators to run his house, but when he visits store B, he finds a very high price on their generators. He can only scrape together enough money for one generator and decides to just buy it for his fridge and freezer, and he can then get by just fine. A number of other families are able to pull together $1,800 and each get a generator, and their urgent needs are met as well.

Seems like "gouging" actually helped out a community spread the resources through the populace rather than produce hoarding.

So you're using capitolism to argue the benefits of communism? It's like Compitolism! :P

All kidding asside, it's a free market economy and sometimes the first guy there gets to **** everybody. That's the way freedom works. Show up early, and try not to trample the door guy.

2RCO
December 1, 2008, 07:18 PM
I can see the stores raising there prices to meet demand. Ultimately the consumer decides Billy Bob's gunshop will keep the Price on M4's at 2k as long as he can sell them for that. If no one buys them the price will go down. I bought a RRA a year ago so I have my AR fix. I have a WASR that I've had since before the frenzy as well.

Point blank these guys can't charge more than anyone can pay.

As for CMMG those guys are great. I don't own any of their products but I know several guys that do and they love them. I have talked to a couple of the family that owns them and they are nice people as well. Next AR I buy will be CMMG and it may be quite soon.

feedthehogs
December 1, 2008, 07:20 PM
Free enterprise is a wonderful thing.

The only people complaining are the ones who didn't prepare and have to pay the higher prices.

CoRoMo
December 1, 2008, 07:24 PM
I tried to carefully not "argue" one way or the other. Especially in favor of communism. That is quite an assumption, and nothing is further from the truth.
I simply gave you the story as I heard it... and heard that this actually happened after Katrina, with generators and all. You can decide for yourself which scenario worked out best.

Yes... seriously. It is not a free market as retailers are pounded with swift severity if they try to prevent hoarding. The way freedom works, is everyone is able to make business decisions and let the market chips fall where they may.

expvideo
December 1, 2008, 07:28 PM
I tried to carefully not "argue" one way or the other. Especially in favor of communism. That is quite an assumption, and nothing is further from the truth.
I simply gave you the story as I heard it... and heard that this actually happened after Katrina, with generators and all. You can decide for yourself which scenario worked out best.
My comment about communism was not meant to be taken in a serious tone. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Yes... seriously. It is not a free market as retailers are pounded with swift severity if they try to prevent hoarding...
OK, BS. Seriously. Ever read the bottom of a coupon that says "Limit 1 per customer"? They can control hoarding if they want to, but they answer to the dollar not the greater good. And there's nothing wrong with that.

HOME DEPOT GEORGE
December 1, 2008, 07:43 PM
This is why we shouldn't even give some of these people any business. Example ammoman is 30 to 40 dollars more per 1000 rounds of the same 223 ammo than centerfire systems and ammunition to go. As a matter of fact ammoman raised his prices the day after the election. For the record I'm not whining about the prices because I didn't "stock up" before the panic and I refuse to act like one of these idiots(let the flaming begin) that needs to buy 5 ak47's a half dozen ar's 400 magazines and a truckload of ammo just because there's a dummycrat in the whitehouse. My gripe is seeing people taken advantage of, after being through 7 hurricanes and seeing so much gouging it just aggravates me.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 1, 2008, 07:47 PM
So I guess it's okay when a gas station sells gas for 7$ a gallon or ice for 15$ a bag or even 20$ a case for water right after a hurricane passes.

You are DAMN STRAIGHT it is!!!!!!!! If they didn't, then nobody would and guess what, people would DIE without that water, and be stranded without that gas - and there would BE NO ice, and people's food would spoil. Then, society is WORSE off, and no one makes any money off of it.

Since that attempted rhetorical question was the basis of the rest of your post, and it was answered the opposite of what you thought it would be, it blows your whole premise & argument - so, do you have any OTHER questions? :) :p

That said, it's commendable of CMMG I suppose, but lookit - Supply and demand WORKED here too, just as it did in the hurricane example, precisely because there WERE competitors (remember, the ones decribed as being forlorn that CMMG didn't jack up their prices) - so CMMG rightfully gets the business. Supply and demand works and works well every time. Had there been no other suppliers there, you can rest assured CMMGs prices would have been inflated - perhaps not to insane levels, but higher certainly. You cannot break the law of supply and demand - you can only break yourself against the law by thinking that it doesn't always work to solve problems.

The only people complaining are the ones who didn't prepare and have to pay the higher prices.

Well, no, not really - THEY'RE not even complaining - they're merrily paying the price - the only ones complaining are the ones who are NOT paying the higher prices, not the ones who are, but just want to armchair quarterback the law of supply and demand. If it's not worth it, then don't buy it! I sure as heck didn't buy anything inflated recently. But I did buy plenty of guns at standard prices - not all types of guns have been jacked up.

rallyhound
December 1, 2008, 07:48 PM
Almost nobody has dire need for the latest 30 round blaster.

Now a little story.
A very good friend of mine owned a Harley Davidson dealership
back in the 90's when Harley's were all wait listed and selling for 2-5k over list..
He decided to be a stand up guy and sell all the bikes he could get for list price.

What happened is that the bikes he sold at a normal profit level almost always ended up at other dealers showfloors or In the paper for far above what he sold them for.

He finally got with the program and started making the profit for himself.

HOME DEPOT GEORGE
December 1, 2008, 07:57 PM
Premiumsauces- If making money is such a great thing you can buy your ammo from ammoman for 40$ more and support capitalism and I'll buy mine from centerfire and put the money I save towards another gun.:p:p

Merkelman
December 1, 2008, 08:01 PM
Anyone hear of supply and demand? Essentially the foundation of Capitalism, upon which our economy is based and how things are priced!
Pricing to demand is not gouging, it's business. Economics 101!!

RyanM
December 1, 2008, 08:16 PM
Okay okay okay you guys. Supply and demand, it's good business sense to change prices so that stuff enters and leaves the store at equal rates, etc.

That doesn't change the fact that CMMG is showing real integrity, and commitment to making their products available for what they think they're worth instead of "what the market will bear." They're sacrificing profits to make it so that people who aren't made of money, who can't afford $2,000 for an AR, can still still get one at the pre-election price.

I'm waiting on an upper from them. It could be a very long time. But I don't have any regrets, because they're obviously a good company to deal with, and I don't feel like I got ripped off on the price at all.

This is what I've got so far, if anyone cares.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/syldssuf/M4A1.jpg

ugly old guns
December 1, 2008, 11:54 PM
Anyone hear of supply and demand? Essentially the foundation of Capitalism, upon which our economy is based and how things are priced!
Pricing to demand is not gouging, it's business. Economics 101!!

I agree wholeheartedly. Where we diverge is the impression that some are not reacting to market forces, but pandering to, and even increasing a fear that may or not be founded in reality. When a guy rents a table at a gunshow, puts his 900$ gun on it, alone, and tells anyone within 25 yards to "buy it now, and hide it, so they can't take it away", he isn't acting within the dictates of supply and demand. He is acting in concert with those who may or may not be wanting to implement a ban to further his own needs. Profiteering isn't always about cash. If the aforementioned gas station selling essential supplies wishes to sell the high priced gas, water, and ice, so be it. They are his to sell at any price he can get. When he puts out a sign saying "Your babies will die, your food will spoil, and you will get sick, unless you buy my fine supplies!", then he has crossed that line into profiteering. I don't care if every seller raises their prices 10% a day, as long as they are not scaring folks to justify it. Just be honest enough to say this is what they want, and leave it at that.

DocMustang
December 1, 2008, 11:59 PM
http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnStossel/2005/09/07/in_praise_of_price_gouging

Free Trade vs Force

Large sudden price increases in the setting of increased demand and limited supply ensures that vital goods are available and distributed to those who need them. If you are stranded with a hurricane coming and you have cash or other goods or luxuries that can readily be exchanged for cash, your money and other items have a relatively low value in terms of survival. On the other hand the station owner has pleanty of gas and he wants money in exchange. Then you are faced with a decision: how much do you need the gas? If you are free to trade or walk away and you give the station owner your cash or other items then you must have believed at the time that you were benefiting from the exchange or you would not have made it. Economics 101: all trades are win-win. Whether you respect him in the morning...

Additionally, you have a second way of dealing with the station owner. If you do not wish to trade you can opt to use force. You then offer to take the station owner's life limb or livelihood in exchange for the gas. You can do this individually wherein you hold the gun and threaten the station owner personally or you can do this by proxy through the state or other form of collective (communist) action. The state usually performes this function by threatening buisiness closure, heavy fines or incarceration for non compliance. If you are not justified in threatening the station owner as an individual, where does the government derive the right to do so collectively?

A marxist would argue that the station owner's exploitation of the population is sufficient to warrent both the individual use of force as a primary means of obtaining justice and collective means as the ideal method of obtaining justice. Objectivists like Ayn Rand would argue that greed in the setting of rational self interest is the best means for obtaining justice.

DocMustang
December 2, 2008, 12:12 AM
When he puts out a sign saying "Your babies will die, your food will spoil, and you will get sick, unless you buy my fine supplies!", then he has crossed that line into profiteering.

No, that is advertising. He is merely pointing out information to the public that they should already know. If he sold contaminated water and then sold antibiotics to the same people he infected, that would be profiteering. In the case of retailers increasing their prices it would only be profiteering if the gun dealer did any of the following:
1. lobbied for the introduction of legislation banning certain types of firearms or all firearms inclusively with the intention of reaping a large profit from the increase in demand prior to the ban.
2. Falsely accused law makers of activities similar to the above for the purposes of profiting from fears resulting from imagined threats. (Note: does not apply in this case as the current president elect, speaker of the house and many members of the majority party in the senate are on record as being anti-gun)
3. Voted for politicians with an anti-gun agenda for purposes of profit.

A rational examination of these or similar actions clearly shows them to be against the long term self interests of the gun dealers. Most of these actions will result in long term loss of sales (a justification for increased prices in and of itself) and possible business closure. Either way it would be foolish to do so.

John_galt
December 2, 2008, 01:57 AM
There's a line between capitalism and profiteering and I'm sorry to say quite a few of these companies have crossed that line. 1000 round cases of wolf ammo going up 30 or 40% is a joke as raw material prices have been dropping like a rock for months and the prices of crap wasr 10 ak-47's going up by double on speculation of a weapons ban that might never happen. Or how about some of these places doubling the prices for mags,maybe I missed something did the cost of labor to manufacture these mags double overnight it sure isn't the prices of the raw materials.

I'm sorry who forced you to buy any of these things? I missed that part. Or is the unsaid implication that you have a right to them at a price you deem fair? In which case who exactly gave you that right?

That doesn't change the fact that CMMG is showing real integrity, and commitment to making their products available for what they think they're worth instead of "what the market will bear." They're sacrificing profits to make it so that people who aren't made of money, who can't afford $2,000 for an AR, can still still get one at the pre-election price.

BS. Thye are making a business descision, gambling that in the long run they will come out ahead with a larger more loyal customer base. And there is nothing wrong with that. If they manufacturer and sell their own product they have an advantage and can exploit it as they see fit for there own long term interest. God Bless America! Isn't it great!

"My gripe is seeing people taken advantage of, after being through 7 hurricanes and seeing so much gouging it just aggravates me.

Just how do you propose to fix that for those so desperately in need of your help? Are you going to decide yourself or would you like a Central Committee? I've heard they work well........

CMMG is a manufacturer, so restocking them costs as much as it did before the buying panic. They happen to sell their products directly, but they are a manufacturer first and a retailer second. Since the actual prices of the materials used to manufacture the product has not changed significantly, it will not cost them any more to resupply than it did before the election rush.

Good for them they have uniquely positioned themselves for their market. And just like anyone else they are free to change their prices as THEY see fit. Once again the market at work . . . helping the guy with the right plan. God Bless America! Isn't this whole freedom thing awesome!


good to hear! i HATE profiteers with a passion! and dont give me any of this "supply and demand" garbage. the guys who do this are just plain greedy!"

Then don't buy from them "plain greedy" folks. No one is holding a gun to your head.


A marxist would argue that the station owner's exploitation of the population is sufficient to warrent both the individual use of force as a primary means of obtaining justice and collective means as the ideal method of obtaining justice. Objectivists like Ayn Rand would argue that greed in the setting of rational self interest is the best means for obtaining justice

Thank you Lord. Someone who gets it! There aren't enough of you out there anymore.

OK I think at this point I have messed with everyone. It's late and I am on call till 7am so to hell with it, I'll read this again in the morning and think why in the world did I bite into this agian. If you wonder why I have such strong feelings about this, look at my screen name and make the connection. Atlas Shrugged is my favorite fiction book of all time. If you haven't read it you should. this bemoaning prices as unfair and gouging undermines freedom becasue people making those argument haven't thought them through to the logical conclusions.

One last thing - RyanM. I hope you get that rifle finished up and running. Then I hope you find some way to open a business or get a skill where you make an absolutely obscene amount of money, buy a bunch of stuff from CMMG, because you can, you want to and you just like the way they do business. (Come to think of it, I hope I do too!) I love the opportunities that you only get in the USA! GOD BLESS AMERICA! (because boy are we going to need it the next four years!)

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