Missouri CCW Question???


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smullen
December 2, 2008, 06:21 PM
I'm full of questions today... :)

So again some Co-workers and I were discussing 2A Topics...

Reguarding the CCW, when you get one, do you have to document what Concealable Firearms you'll be carrying???

And then are you limited and required to only carry that Firearm, or can you carry any of the Glocks, Sigs, S&Ws, etc.. that you may have in your collection at home...

From what I have read, it seems like some states you are limited to whichever one you put on your form, but I've not heard anything like that in Missouri....

Thanks

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indoorsoccerfrea
December 2, 2008, 06:25 PM
it depends on your state. for example in indiana i do not have what firearms i am allowed to carry on my permit. the law allows that to be up to me. i dont know about missouri though

Kleanbore
December 2, 2008, 06:32 PM
[In MO for CCW] do you have to document what Concealable Firearms you'll be carrying??? And then are you limited and required to only carry that Firearm,

No and no.

In the required training class, you have to fire ten shots from a revolver and ten from a semiautomatic pistol. Then you have to choose one or the other and "qualify" with it--15 out of 20 shots on a torso-sized target at 7 yards. The selection has no bearing at all on what you can carry.

Phydeaux642
December 2, 2008, 10:45 PM
I can carry whatever gun I choose, which is nice since I am getting ready to pick up an Officers sized 1911 with CT grips here pretty quick. I sometimes carry a P32 and/or a 642.

When I took my CCW class in MO, I had to shoot a total of fifty rounds split between a revolver and a semi-auto. Then I had to qualify with 15 out of 20 round hitting the target (could probably have done it with my eyes closed).

Shadan7
December 3, 2008, 10:28 AM
Yeah Phydeaux642, being able to choose which gun based on clothing, mood, phase of the moon, whatever, is nice. I mix and match pretty regularly.

smullen, as kleanbore said: no and no. Having to demonstrate basic competence with both a revolver and semi-auto when testing for your permit is the way to go. Of course, anyone who gets a CCW permit should make sure that they can handle whatever weapon they are going to carry safely, and practice regularly, but that should be left to them.

7

Tirod
December 3, 2008, 12:30 PM
I appreciate the intent the legislature had when they wrote the CCW training, but, well, the "both" interpretation of revolver and pistol is lame.

As a 22 year Retired US Army Reservist who served as an MP for my deployment, I never fired a revolver in training. Modern armies don't use them. For the legislature to word the law to require it is a bit much.

Many LEO's issued a firearm in the last decade probably haven't been required to fire a revolver, either. Not that they are a problem - just no longer issue. Academy time is limited, as are expenses. You can't teach everything.

When I qualified for my CCW no revolver fire was done, which another group who markets training locally is rather pointed about. Nonetheless, it seems to pass the state's requirement. I believe the real intent is to demonstrate competency with the firearm you will use, pistol or revolver, not that you have to be knowledgeable on both. Again, thousands of soldiers and LEO's out there never use or receive any training on revolvers. It's not cost effective. And those who won't own auto pistols probably agree in their perspective. What's the point?

It's moot, if you did, you are licensed now, and the instructor/range that insists you do offers rentals in some cases. Not everybody can afford both, or can get one or the other for practice. I expect some day in the far legislative future MO will clean up the obvious miswording.

Like fishing, the recipient of armed fire probably doesn't care much what kind of gun was used as much as the accuracy.

roger_witten
December 3, 2008, 04:53 PM
The revolver requirement is a safety issue. It's silly, but it has a point. You try both, become introduced to both, and have a comfort level with both weapons. It's 10 rounds. Not a big deal.

Red Tornado
December 3, 2008, 05:25 PM
It's apparently been lowered since I took the class. I had to shoot 50 each w/ revolver and semi, then 50 with either to qualify.

It's nice it has no bearing on what you can carry. About half the guys in my class qualified with Browning Buckmarks. Me, the idiot, was out there with a Sig. I had a bigger hole in my target, but they saved a lot of unneccesary expense.

MO is mostly worried about the safety aspect. That's what was really harped on. The actual qualification was hit the man-sized silhouette anywhere from 7 yards. I'd bet on Phydeaux being able to do it with his eyes closed, too. If you're practicing safety by keeping your muzzle downrange, you'll hit it. :D
RT

The Bushmaster
December 3, 2008, 11:40 PM
smullen...Might I suggest www.missouricarry.com ?

zinzan
April 29, 2009, 03:11 PM
If you live in the city of Saint Louis as I do, and carry IN THE CITY, I recommend carrying a laminated, miniaturized copy of proof of your ownership of the handgun you are wearing. While this is in no way required by law, Several Saint Louis P.D. officers have told me they will not hesitate to confiscate any handgun if ownership can't be established on the spot even with C.C.W.permit. The C.C.W. safe handling/proficiency trial and class material is not geared towards applicant attrition, so literally anyone with a long enough attention span, clear criminal/mental history and $125 + processing/licensing will be given the permit. This is a beautiful thing, but in the city of Saint Louis a lot of thugs with no common sense and complete disdain for ownership laws, mistakenly believe a permit to carry gives them immunity from cops hassling them. I'm not sure legally how cops can justify confiscation, but I know they can. You may have your Gun returned after proper ownership has been established. I have a laminated copy of the old, and thankfully done away with, City Of Saint Louis, MO. Sheriff's Office Receipt For (handgun purchase) Permit in my wallet under my C.C.W. permit. It proves I own the Browning Hi-Power on my waist. I don't want the hassle. Good luck bro

Anyone know the specifics for the justified confiscation of firearms by Police in Missouri if ownership is in question. If such a thing exists how do I go about proving ownership of hand me down heirlooms that go boom or private transfers with no traceable record of ownership? This isn't anything I'm concerned about now, but I want to make sure I know the law if I'm put under pressure in the future.

Thingster
April 29, 2009, 09:37 PM
It isn't justified in any way shape or form. However, it is well known that city of STL police are, uh, unpleasant. . . when it comes to handgun possession of any sort, especially in vehicles, as are most jurisdictions in St. Louis county.

Last time I bought a pistol in St. Louis County the guy asked me if I had a CCW and if I ever planned on vehicle carry. At the point in time the answer was no and yes. He immediately made me 3 photocopies of the receipt and gave me the original as well. Told me to keep my receipt in my safe and keep a copy in every one of my vehicles to avoid any BS.

For private sales, get a notaraized bill of sale. That's all you could ever need in Missouri- OR spend the $20 at an FFL and get it "officially" sold to you.

smartshooter.45
April 29, 2009, 10:03 PM
one interesting tidbit of info about ccw in wash st. as ive read more and more about ccw laws in other states i noticed how lax WA st ccw laws are. in order to get a ccw permit here, all u need is a clean record, 60 bucks, and have ur fingerprints taken. theres no required training classes or anything. i am totally confident in my knowledge and experience with firearms, but i am afraid of the guy who just baught his .45 and can legally carry it w/out ever having to fire it once.

just a thought

2RCO
April 29, 2009, 11:52 PM
I am not about tests for gun owners. But-If you cannot pass the MO qualification requirements of 15 out of 20 within a Man Size Target at 7 yards you are probably severely impaired --physically or mentally.

You can also carry whatever you like.

blarney
April 30, 2009, 05:21 PM
No you don't have to document what firearms you will be carrying.
No you aren't required to only carry certain firearms. If you can conceal that firearm you are good to go. Missouri does only apply this to firearms though so you can't now carry things like a blackjack.
When qualifying you will notice many different rules seem to apply. Basically you will most likely fire at least 50rounds and you will have to show some proficiency with both a semi and a revolver.

don.b
May 11, 2009, 10:37 PM
Unreasonable search+seizure, obstructing justice, theft of a firearm, the use of a firearm during the commission of a crime; GET THE IDEA ? Prosecute bad cops. Then the good ones will remain. No law, to my knowledge; requires proof of ownership. It's that simple. Take it to court, fight it, whenever possible. Saint Louis has a great history, fer the most part, but the political nature of that place makes me want to puke, sometimes.

sebtool
May 12, 2009, 01:34 AM
Don, technically you are correct on the 1st part. But in practice, there can always be an 'anomaly', and if one's going to occur, I can pretty well guarantee that it'll happen to me - what about you? (I'm currently suing Murphy of 'Murphy's Law' fame for trademark infringement, and I'm not even a lawyer!:D) Better to cover the bases.

I just took the CCW class, in fact had it at my shop. 1 thing the instructor stressed was mentioned above - many cops have no qualms whatsoever about confiscating your gun and putting the burden of proof on your shoulders in court. They'll get paid to appear - you won't. Gotta love it. Depending on the firearm involved, many figure you'll walk away from the gun rather than get tied up in attorney's fees, missing work, aggravation, etc. And then there's another :evil: gun off the street, which will save another gangbanger from temptation, right???

By no means am I saying all officers will take that stance, but is it worth the risk? If you have no documentation on the gun, you can take it to an FFL holder who will document it for a small fee, normally $20-$40.
Remember - before the CCW passed, it was technically legal to carry an exposed gun on your person downtown, it just couldn't be concealed! I don't know about you, but I never tried it, as I'm not independently wealthy, or on a 1st name basis with a good criminal attorney!

The cops (some of them, anyway) aren't real concerned about inconveniencing you, even though you may be fully within the law. Which may not specifically state that you're required to show proof of ownership, but who's to say that a $3000 Les Baer custom exactly like the one you had in your truck's console wasn't just stolen from the police officer's neighbor's father-in-law 3 days, before, only 2-1/2 miles from where you were pulled over for having a tail light out? Reasonable??? suspicion, doubt, take your pick.:scrutiny:

Our instructor had a story about that, kinda long, and I hate typing, so...
The bottom line is, to avoid the possible/probable? hassel and expense involved, document your ownership!
And you're dead right about the politics of STL - udderly disgusting!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

don.b
May 13, 2009, 12:28 AM
Sebtool, if the weapon (or object..) is not pursuant to being evidence in a pending case, then there is no legal reason fer the police to maintain custody of it. I've had a policeman, years back; in Springfield,Mo. steal from evidence, a Aitor pocketknife that I was arrested with. 4 1/8 th. in. blade...I got locked-up, fer being in the wrong place, wrong time, and having 1/8 th. in. too much 440B...After I was released, and started paying the CCW fine, I went to the evidence lock-up, to get my property. "It's not here"...I went upstairs to the main desk, told the desk officer that I needed to file charges of stealing...against the arresting officer. Two days later, the knife 'mysteriously' re-appeared. I went and reclaimed my knife. This occurred in 1988, and I learned a couple of years ago, the arresting officer had since been promoted to Captain. The knife had the initials DAC on the scales. I don't forget, easily. I won't get into an incident at a local bookstore, a few years ago...Professionalism is lacking, in Springfield, Mo. I've met a few decent cops, too, but the bad examples truly stand-out. Stealing is a criminal offense, not a civil one...That's the local Prosecutors' job.

bhk
May 13, 2009, 07:53 AM
Join MOCCW.COM and learn all there is to know. There was a recent thread on there concerning a St. Louis area instructor that was recommending carrying ownership documentation. Most of the other area instructors rejected this notion. Most folks with ccw in the area have had good interactions with the police. I live an hour or so out of the city, but do visit there. No way am I going to carry documentation.

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