.40acp. or .45acp.


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bill111444
December 3, 2008, 09:32 AM
Which, in your opinions, is the better round for carry and HD? Recoil is not a problem. I want the bad guy down and out NOW.

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Knives
December 3, 2008, 09:47 AM
Which one do you shoot better with?

geronimo509
December 3, 2008, 09:50 AM
airborne airborne all the way
.45 .45 EVERYDAY

esq_stu
December 3, 2008, 09:54 AM
Which one do you shoot better with?Good point. In addition, other factors I personally consider important:

Which one is more widely available in greater variety?

Which one is more widely reloaded and has more choices and availability of components?

Which one does your local police department carry?

punkndisorderly
December 3, 2008, 10:01 AM
Assuming use of good defense ammo, the .45 will give you slightly better stopping power. However, the .40 is no slouch. I'd feel comfortable with a gun chambered in either.

More important is what the gun you shoot best and trust most. That is the gun you should be using. Also keep in mind that as far as a carry gun, it should be something you're willing and able to carry. Too big, bulky, heavy and it's likely to be sitting at home on the nightstand when you need it most.

Marcus L.
December 3, 2008, 11:20 AM
I want the bad guy down and out NOW.

Unless you shoot them in the head, that will not happen unless they fall down voluntarily because they realize that they have been shot and are hoping that if they fall down you will not shoot them anymore and call an ambulance. The vast majority of shootings end because someone realizes that they have been shot and surrender by falling down.

Other than good shot placement, the most reliable means of stopping someone as quickly as possible in a home defense situation(ranges less than 25yrds) is to use a 12-gauge shotgun with full power 00-Buck shot(preferable copper plated). It is the equivalent of being shot 9 times with a .32 caliber pistol in terms of how much stuff it damages with every shot.

Whether you pick .40S&W or .45acp should be more based on the characteristics of the platform. Most .40S&W pistols fit the hand better, have more manageable size, and better magazine capacity. The .45acp makes a larger hole overall in the body, but the .40S&W shoots through barriers such as windshields and car doors better. Using heavier bullets the recoil feels very similar.......40S&W 180gr, and .45acp 230gr. Middle weight bullets such as the 9mm 124gr, .40S&W 155gr or 165gr, and .45acp 200gr tend to generate the most felt recoil. Given equal pistol weight and grip dimensions, a 9mm 124gr+P will feel more snappy than a .45acp 230gr, and a .40S&W 155gr will feel more snappy than a .45acp 230gr. However, if you use 9mm 147gr, .40S&W 180gr, and .45acp 230gr they are all pretty manageable with the 9mm being more controllable than the .40S&W, and the .40S&W being more controllable than the .45acp(once again, given equal pistol weights and grip dimensions). I generally prefer the .40S&W for duty carry and the 9mm for off duty carry with heavier bullet weights.

FBI Test Protocol:
Bare Gelatin = covered with T-shirt, Shot at 10ft
Denim = 4 layers shot at 10ft
Heavy Clothing = shot at 10ft
Steel = 2 pieces of 20 gauge, shot at 10ft
Wallboard = 2 pieces of 1/2" gypsum board, shot at 10ft
Plywood = 1 piece of 3/4" AA fir plywood, shot at 10ft
Automobile Glass = 1 piece of 1/4" laminated safety glass set at a 45 degree angle with an offset of 15 degrees, shot at 10ft

9mm 147gr(990fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 13.9”/.65”
Through Denim: 14.5”/.66”
Through Heavy Cloth: 14”/.66”
Through Wallboard: 15”/.67”
Through Plywood: 14.8”/.62”
Through Steel: 17”/.45”
Through Auto Glass: 10.8”/.52”

.40S&W 180gr(990fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 13.8”/.67”
Through Denim: 14.3”/.70”
Through Heavy Cloth: 13.4”/.64”
Through Wallboard: 13.1”/.66”
Through Plywood: 15.1”/.64”
Through Steel: 17”/.52”
Through Auto Glass: 12”/.61”

.45acp 230gr(905fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 11.6”/.75”
Through Denim: 12.7”/.72”
Through Heavy Cloth: 12.3”/.75”
Through Wallboard: 15.2”/.69”
Through Plywood: 18”/.453”
Through Steel: 16.5”/.53”
Through Auto Glass: 12”/.58”

MMCSRET
December 3, 2008, 11:23 AM
I am not familiar with a "40acp." Please enlighten me, before I can offer an educated opinion. Thanks.

geronimo509
December 3, 2008, 11:57 AM
he probably just made a mistake, i would put money on the fact that he doesnt know too much about firearms ( not that i do either) but you get the point. 40 s&w would be a good assumption.

FoMoGo
December 3, 2008, 12:13 PM
I would not feel undergunned with either.
That being said I will choose .45 acp every time.
I have a fondness for large freight train bullets.
You wont stop what you dont hit.
Try a few different pistols, see what feels good and seems to point naturally.
Then shoot the ones you narrow it down to.
Buy the one you shoot best.


Jim

JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
December 3, 2008, 12:26 PM
45acp. from a 1911 is my chioce and most often available to me.

But what sits in my wife's nightstand? A .38spl snub revolver.

What is available elsewhere in the house? A .357mag snub revolver.

A .40S&W wouldn't be a bad choice, but I've never liked the round for other reasons. I've never shot one as accurate as a good .45acp/1911.. Not that that is a factor for close quarter/in home defense.

-Steve

BlindJustice
December 3, 2008, 12:52 PM
Here yah go buddy,

Double Tap Ammo offeringss
These are ALL Speer Gold Dot JHP
.45 ACP ----- .40 S&W -- 9MM LUger +P
185 gr 155 gr. 115 gr.
1225 fps 1,275 fps 1,450 fps
616 ft lbs 603 ft. lbs 511 ft lbs
200 gr. 165 gr. 124 gr.
1125 fps 1,200 fps 1,310 fps
562 Ft lbs 528 fl lbs 473 ft lbs
230 gr. 180 gr. 147 gr.
1,010 fps 1,100 fps 1,135 fps
521 ft lbs 484 ft lbs 421 ft lbs


Light to Medium to heavy in each
bullet caliber....

Now find a platform you can hit something
with

I'll go back and read the thread now.

Randall

BlindJustice
December 3, 2008, 01:11 PM
oh my choice(s)

S&W 1911 5" Bbl. .45 ACP
Carry: DT 200 gr. GD JHPs

CZ 75B 9mm Luger
Carry: DT 147 gr. GD JHP

I have yet to fire a handgun in .40 S&W
so until I do I'll reserve comment on that
round but on paper it seems adequate. In the
meantime for .40 bullets I have a Bar Sto in
.400 CorBon for my 1911
155 gr.. Speer Gold Dot @ 1400 FPS

Several people at the range have asked
*** am I shooting for ammo with that barrel
installed in the 1911. I qualified with a 1911
in the USN so it's manual of arms is pretty much
ingrained into the ol'lizard brain for a SHTF moment
However the CZ 75B is a nice platform and it'll
probably be the platform for me if I ever go the
.40 S&W route.

Randall

hankdatank1362
December 3, 2008, 01:24 PM
I don't know what a .40ACP is. It could be THE awesome.

But I carry a .40S&W every day in a P226. Suits my needs just fine.

Walkalong
December 3, 2008, 03:18 PM
.45 over .40, but both are good rounds.

trekgod3
December 3, 2008, 06:00 PM
How do you make a post as a "guest"? I've never noticed that option.

putteral
December 3, 2008, 06:07 PM
The bigger the hole the better for me.
Never heard of a guest!

janobles14
December 3, 2008, 06:15 PM
i used to HATE the .40s&w and swore only by the .45. that was until i ran up on a ruger p94 for a song and decided to try out the caliber. it didnt take long for me to switch to 165 gr. gold dots in .40 s&w for daily carry.

spiroxlii
December 3, 2008, 06:40 PM
Ok... within 24 hours, a thousand people will post here to say I'm wrong, but here's my $0.02 on the matter.

.40S&W and .45ACP are both effective defensive rounds. I would feel comfortable carrying either one in a handgun that I was familiar and proficient with. The key to becoming familiar and proficient with your defensive handgun is to practice with it often. Practicing often in .40S&W and .45ACP can be very very expensive. If you can afford it, then by all means DO IT!

If you, however, are on a budget (as many of us are in these difficult times), then you should consider a 9mm pistol. The caliber snobs will surely cry out that 9mm is weak and puny and ineffective. They will copy and paste numbers and statistics. They will call me foolish for regularly trusting my 9mm, .380ACP, and .38spl handguns with my safety. They will shoot down my argument about ammo costs by saying that "you can't put a price on your life."

All the good pistol manufacturers make something in 9mm. Whatever you want (steel frame, polymer frame, DA/SA, DAO, SA, striker-fired, etc) can be had in 9mm. You can even get a 1911 in 9mm. With the wide variety of different bullets and loads available in 9mm cartridges now, you can surely find something to fit your needs, whether your personal philosophy favors "light and fast" bullets or "heavy and slow" bullets.

You can afford to practice a lot more with 9mm. "Practice ammo" in the same bullet weight as the ammo you carry is far, far cheaper than .40S&W or .45ACP. "Premium" defensive ammo is also much cheaper in 9mm than it is in .40S&W or .45ACP.

You can carry more rounds of 9mm in a magazine and on your person (this is mainly an advantage over .45ACP, since .40S&W handguns can carry almost as many rounds as a 9mm of the same size).

Good 9mm defensive ammo packs an effective wallop. 9mm lovers and 9mm haters alike can come up with MOUNDS of data to support their positions. All I have to say is that thousands of dead people can't be wrong. 9mm works.

Marcus L.
December 3, 2008, 06:55 PM
I agree with you Spiroxlii. The 9mm is a superior cartridge when it comes to many aspects of firearms use. You do get a "slight" advantage in using .40S&W over 9mm, and you get a "slight" advantage in using .45acp over .40S&W. However, those advantages are off-set by reduced handling which CAN have a higher probability of getting you killed that using a smaller caliber.

You should ONLY move from the 9mm to larger calibers if, and only if you can shoot them equally as well. That means timed shooting. Most who claim they can shoot .40 and .45 equally as well as they can shoot 9mm do not participate in timed qualifications. Shooting accurately AND rapidly is of utmost importance and from what those who have been in actual shootings have learned is that sometimes your best just isn't enough. If you can shoot that accurately and rapidly, then you do gain some terminal effects advantages in using the larger diameter calibers. I tend to stick with the 9mm and .40S&W. I have yet to find a .45acp pistol that meets my needs as well as the 9mm and .40S&W when it comes to law enforcement......or gives me the comfort, handling, and concealability of a concealed weapon.

However, the author of this thread does not want a 9mm. He doesn't even care about recoil, he just wants something that puts the badgun down and out NOW. So, I guess that takes any hangun and caliber off the list.

Train smart, train a lot, and train as though your life depended on it.

trekgod3
December 3, 2008, 07:26 PM
I kinda had the feeling this thread was started to get a flame-war going debating which round is better. The posting as a "guest" thing was a good tip-off.

bubbat190
December 5, 2008, 06:04 PM
I just picked up a Springfield armorey EMP in 40 S&W and love it not as much recoil as compared to the .45 ACP and really the differance between 40 S&W and 45 ACP as far as ballistics the .45 ACP is really not all that much "better". but when it comes down to it it all about what you feel comfortable and confident with.

7.62Reaper
December 5, 2008, 06:06 PM
I would just use an old piece of rope. Shooting makes it hard to clean up... Blood splatter and brain matter = no fun.

Treo
December 5, 2008, 06:33 PM
How do you make a post as a "guest"? I've never noticed that option.guest= banned

KBintheSLC
December 5, 2008, 06:37 PM
I prefer the 9mm for casual carry and target practice. If I want a caliber that starts with a "4" I will use my 10mm auto.

trekgod3
December 5, 2008, 06:55 PM
guest= banned

Ahhh....That answers my question. It seems my theory is correct.:rolleyes:

SJ78
December 6, 2008, 12:30 AM
I would go with the 45 auto. They are cheaper to shoot . And they make 185
grain loads similar to the 40 . So think the 45 offers more anyway you look at it.

Marcus L.
December 6, 2008, 12:40 AM
I would go with the 45 auto. They are cheaper to shoot . And they make 185
grain loads similar to the 40 . So think the 45 offers more anyway you look at it.

Huh?

Winchester White Box:
50rds of .40S&W(all bullet weights) = $15.95
50rds of .45acp(all bullet weights) = $19.95

Speer Gold Dots:
50rds of .40S&W(all bullet weights) = $25.95
50rds of .45acp(all bullet weights) = $28.95

Also, the .40S&W 180gr load is a much better penetrator than the .45acp 185gr load. It's something called Sectional Density. In lay terms, it is the mass concentration of a bullet relative to its diameter. A 9mm 135gr bullet concentrates its mass into a smaller focal point than a .40S&W 135gr bullet resulting in a more elongated bullet with more momentum behind it.

Speer Gold Dots:

.40S&W 180gr(1025fps):
Bare Gel: Pen=14.3" Expansion=.66"
Through Denim: Pen=15.2" Expansion=.62"

.45acp 185gr(1050fps):
Bare Gel: Pen=11.3" Expansion=.69"
Through Denim: Pen=12.5" Expansion=.64"

The .45acp is much better in 230gr bullets which have a higher sectional density and get better penetration.

Ron-Bon
December 6, 2008, 12:44 AM
I was not aware that there was such a catridge as ".40 acp" I thought there was only .40 S&W. Is this a new catridge or an error of the poster.

SJ78
December 6, 2008, 01:06 AM
I wasnt aware of the current ammo prices. I remember when the 40 first came on the scene it was higher . My mistake. I still think the 45 is a better choice. I guess it depends on which you like .

Kevin108
December 6, 2008, 06:29 PM
.45 for me - less, recoil, more controllable, about the same price, even bigger hole!

bill111444
December 8, 2008, 12:50 PM
This is the author of the thread, I don't know why they have me as a guest. I am a member. I made a mistake about the 40acp. I meant 40s&w. I wasn't trying to start an argument. It's just I don't know anything about the 40s&w round. I was going to buy a sig sas 220 45acp, then I thought if the 40s&w was just as good a round I would get the sig 229 sas 40s&w. It's the same frame size and I would be getting 4 more rounds. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Blacklabelz
December 8, 2008, 02:44 PM
It basically comes down to the .40 being the faster, smaller bullet that your mag can hold more of.. and the .45 being the bigger, slower bullet that your mag can hold less of.

.40 = muzzle flip/snappy ; .45 = not so much muzzle flip/push

So unless you find yourself needing to shoot though walls, or being in a prolonged gun fight.. go with the .45.

Jason M
December 8, 2008, 03:02 PM
.40 S&W:
-greater energy
-more recoil
-flatter shooting
-larger magazine capacity
-155, 165, 180gr SD loads available
-cheaper to shoot

.45ACP

-less energy
-less recoil
-MUCH less magazine capacity in standard models
-185, 200, 230gr SD loads available
-more expensive to shoot

Those are pretty much the primary differences. Saying things like "I like .45, but .40 is no slouch" is just an ignorant comment. There is a reason the FBI chose .40 over .45.

If you want to compare by the numbers, the only thing .45 really has over .40 is years in service. By that fact, .45 may have "stopped" more bad guys than .40, but look at the Germans and the 9mm legacy.

Compared to other calibers, .45ACP under-performs in many different aspects, even compared to 9mm (yep, I said it; .45ACP was not created by God, sorry guys).

The 1911 has become, to some, the weapon all others are compared to. But compare it to a modern, standard 9mm platform, the Glock 17:

Magazine capacity
1911 - 5, 6, or 7+1
G17 - 17+1 (225% more ammo)

Recoil (compared by bullet momentum):
.45ACP - ~195,500 gr/f/s
9mm - ~120,000 gr/f/s (~38% less)

So, in short, I am saying that either caliber will do the job equally as well in most cases. And "most cases" encompass virtually every SD encounter that occurs on the street. Your attacker is not tactically savvy, he/she is not likely wearing body armor and the encounter will take place within 20 feet. At 20 feet, anything from .380ACP will do just fine 99% of the time in 99% of situations. And when it comes to SD, you hope for 100%, but 99% is really the best you could ever hope for.

Now, don't be fooled in to thinking I posted this to make fun of .45ACP lovers--I didn't. I own a SA XD45 Tactical and I love to shoot it a lot. It is my favorite of what I own only second to my SIG Sauer P226, coincidentally in .40S&W.

-Jason

ConstantineJ9
December 8, 2008, 03:10 PM
45 acp

Jason M
December 8, 2008, 03:11 PM
So unless you find yourself needing to shoot though walls, or being in a prolonged gun fight.. go with the .45.

Can you qualify this statement?

How do you know you WON'T have to shoot through walls and how do you know you WON'T have to engage multiple targets? Furthermore, who, in their right mind, would just "assume" the minimum of circumstances will occur?

I really hate to just be blunt about it, but .40S&W straight out-performs .45ACP in all categories except popularity. The .45ACP cartridge has some grandiose aura around it that seems to blind some folks to the truth. I've even read arguments that, "I'd carry .45ACP before I carry .44 special any day", when in fact, their ballistics are almost IDENTICAL. There seems to be a mantra that "if it ain't .45ACP, it ain't worth my time." That simply shouldn't be the case.

ConstantineJ9
December 8, 2008, 03:13 PM
+1 Jason M but im stickin with the one that kicks the most, lol.

Jason M
December 8, 2008, 03:19 PM
:D

Actually, shoot a .40 and .45 from the same model gun (say, a 4" barrel XD40 and 45) and you will find the 40 kicks harder. ;)

ConstantineJ9
December 8, 2008, 03:22 PM
What? My Kimber Custom II 45acp kicks more than my Glock 22 40 caliber. Feels like it so in say a Glock would the 22 or the 21 kick more?

Blacklabelz
December 8, 2008, 03:51 PM
How do you know you WON'T have to shoot through walls and how do you know you WON'T have to engage multiple targets? Furthermore, who, in their right mind, would just "assume" the minimum of circumstances will occur?

Sure. If you have that mindset go with a FN-FiveSeveN. Its got 20 rounds and can punch holes through walls. It has basically no recoil, and its slim. To be on the safe side he might need to invest in some armor piercing ammo, because the BG might have body armor on. The FiveSeveN is also great to have in the off chance his house's interior is 300 yards long.

All departments covered. End of Thread.

Agent-J
December 8, 2008, 04:09 PM
Rules to picking caliber.

#1- go with what you can shoot best
#2- then go with whatever is cheapest

edit- oh and .40cal is not any harder to shoot, it's just different. Once you combine proper fundamentals with practice, you will be fine.

Blacklabelz
December 8, 2008, 04:26 PM
edit- oh and .40cal is not any harder to shoot, it's just different. Once you combine proper fundamentals with practice, you will be fine.

Exactly.

The .40 takes practice to get good with, just like anything else. However, I've noticed that the majority of people I know who shoot the .40 "very well", still shoot the .45 a little better and more fluently.

40 and 45 essentially do the same job. Pick whatever fits you better.

ps: I'm not a .45 snob. I have a Beretta 90-two in .40 SW as my nightstand gun. I use it for HD not because of the caliber/shoot through wall capabilities/magazine count, but because it has tritium night sights.

Jason M
December 8, 2008, 04:57 PM
Sure. If you have that mindset go with a FN-FiveSeveN. Its got 20 rounds and can punch holes through walls. It has basically no recoil, and its slim. To be on the safe side he might need to invest in some armor piercing ammo, because the BG might have body armor on. The FiveSeveN is also great to have in the off chance his house's interior is 300 yards long.

All departments covered. End of Thread.


Your point?

If you feel your need is that great, then carry a Five-seveN. My point was, that seemed to be missed, was don't settle for a MINIMUM when it comes to self defense. Sarcasm wasn't a valid response.

Jason M
December 8, 2008, 05:03 PM
edit- oh and .40cal is not any harder to shoot, it's just different. Once you combine proper fundamentals with practice, you will be fine.

Exactly.

The .40 takes practice to get good with, just like anything else. However, I've noticed that the majority of people I know who shoot the .40 "very well", still shoot the .45 a little better and more fluently.

I could not agree more with either of those statements. The .40S&W recoil is different compared to .45ACP, or 9mm for that matter.

It took more practice with my SIG Sauer P226 (.40cal) to be as proficient as I am with my XD45. I won't deny the .45, for most shooters, will have an easier learning curve.

I would also like to clarify, that by .40cal having "more recoil", I didn't mean more quantitatively. By the numbers, the recoil is nearly identical, but in recoil delivery (impulse), the .40 has a greater impulse of recoil.

I own both, I shoot both and I enjoy both. Hell, I want a compact 1911 style pistol to add to my concealed carry rotation.

medic_guns
December 9, 2008, 10:22 PM
The gun should fit your hand well. Then, you should find the caliber you want in that gun. The 1911 fits my hand better than any other gun, and they happen to be .45. I like the .45.

spiroxlii
December 10, 2008, 12:05 AM
The 1911 fits my hand better than any other gun, and they happen to be .45

and .38 Super
and 9mm Parabellum
and 40S&W
and 10mm Auto
and...

:)

HKIWB
December 10, 2008, 12:20 AM
I have both and have equal confidence in both calibers. For carry, I like the .40 for larger capacity in a smaller platform.

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