Just took concealed carry class in Missouri


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Ford
September 20, 2003, 10:23 PM
Well now all I have to do is wait untill the second week of October to apply for my ccw permit.
I just took the required 8 hour class. Not bad, we went over the new bill(s)
that was passed. (Word for Word). Proper gun handling, cleaning, taking your gun apart, safety, self defense and what it means. Covered different scenarios. (sp?) The Instrucor did a good job. The man was VERY qualified. Had certificates from about every county in the State, Several other states the FBI, NRA, etc.... to be a firearms instructor.
Anyway I am glad it is over, the best part though was getting qualified with your pistol.

Missouri residents let me know when all you other guys take your class.

Good Luck

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JohnKSa
September 20, 2003, 10:34 PM
Is MO going to accept TX Concealed Handgun Licenses?

sturmruger
September 20, 2003, 10:41 PM
From what I remember they recognize all other state permits. They have a pretty good law in MO. The only downside for residents is the fact that you have to be 23. I am sure they will make some changs in the future.

Kamicosmos
September 21, 2003, 12:03 AM
So where/how do we find out about classes? I haven't asked at my local range yet. In fact, I just read an article in my local paper that mentioned the sheriff's department (Clay County) is still working out the forms and requirements, including class information.

So....how do we know if a class will be accepted as Qualified by our counties?

Boy, I can't wait for all of this to get rolling!

Ford
September 21, 2003, 08:48 AM
Clay County has told the Centerfire Range in Claycomo that they will accept certificates from them. So Centerfire is having all the people in Clay county to take the class. The Instructor works for the Clay County Sheriffs Dept. Is also certified by the FBI, NRA and a host of other counties and States. I am number 5 in Clay County to pass.

Ford
September 21, 2003, 08:53 AM
http://www.house.state.mo.us/bills03/bilsum/truly/sHB349T.htm

here is a link to the summary of the new law for anyone who wants to see it

R-Tex12
September 21, 2003, 01:13 PM
Kamicosmos -

Here's a link to the CCW classes conducted by THR's own John Ross. He furnishes everything up to & including guns and ammo. The fee is $100 which is refundable if you don't pass (which I believe would be unlikely with him as the instructor). I'm not sure exactly where he's located.

http://www.john-ross.net/missouri_ccw.htm

HTH,

R-Tex12

Futo Inu
September 21, 2003, 01:19 PM
Out-freakin-standing!

Black Snowman
September 21, 2003, 01:52 PM
I know there is a sign-up sheed at Denny's in North Kansas City as well. Not sure who is instructing but they said they will most likely give the classes at the Bullet Hole in KS which I thought was kinda funny.

Kamicosmos
September 21, 2003, 01:55 PM
Thanks for the info guys!

(John Ross is in St Louis I believe.)

One last question. I used to shoot at Clayco all the time so I'll probably go there.

Do we need to take the class in the county where the permit will be issued? I'll be moving to a different county next month (Cass), and that's probably where I'll be actually applying for my permit. Unless there is county residency (time in county) issues, in which case I may try to get it up in Clay. I haven't checked out the gun ranges down here in this area yet...

EDIT: Also, I presume we can shoot with any gun/carry with any gun? The permit isn't going to be for one specific weapon I hope?

Ford
September 21, 2003, 02:43 PM
My understanding is that you do not have to take the class in the same county that you are going to apply for the permit in. You will need to check and make sure that the Sheriffs Dept. in your county of residence will accept the Concealed Carry Certificate from were you are going to take the class. All of the guys except for one that took the class with me were from Clay County because Clay county has said that the certification from Centerfire Range/Claycomo Guns is acceptable. I know also that after you have your permit and you move to a different county you have 30 days to notify the Sheriffs Dept. in your new county.

Dashunde
September 21, 2003, 05:07 PM
Who is offering classes for Cass county (Belton, Harrisonville)?
I cant even think of a gun shop down here...

Ford
September 21, 2003, 05:25 PM
Not sure I have a friend that lives in Pleasant Hill and I think he is just going to sign up at the one in Claycomo. I will let you know if he finds one Cass Co. I know that there is a class in Independence.

pparker
September 21, 2003, 05:28 PM
I have the same question. I live near P Hill but work in Grandview. There is a gun shop in Harrisonville (Shell's), and one near Garden City, but I don't know of anyone who's doing the required classes. Then again, I haven't asked yet. If you find out, let me know.

Ford
September 21, 2003, 05:33 PM
Here is a list of some gun ranges in Missouri

Aurora - Aurora Trap & Skeet, 700 E. Crescent St. - Baldwin Park, Aurora, MO 65605.
Phone: 417-723-8315
Facilities include: Trap, Skeet
Range Access: Public
Click here for a map to the business:


Barnhart - Arnold Rifle and Pistol Club, 8384 Metropolitan Blvd, Barnhart, MO 63012.
Phone: 636-475-5900
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol (50 yds), Outdoor Rifle (100 yds), Muzzleloading, Skeet, Sporting Clays, Archery, Airgun
Range Access: Private
Click here for a map to the business:


Bogard - Snow White Enterprises, , Bogard, MO 64622.
Phone: 660-542-3037
Facilities include: Trap, Sporting Clays
Range Access: Public
Click here for a map to the business:


Bois D'Arc - Andy Dalton Shooting Range and Training Center, 4897 N. Farm Rd. 61, Bois D'Arc, MO 65612.
Phone: 417-742-4361
Facilities include: Muzzleloading, Trap, Skeet, Airgun
Range Access: Public
Click here for a map to the business:


Bois D'Arc - Greene County Cowboy Society, 10526 N. Highway, Bois D'Arc, MO 65612.
Phone: 417-742-0158
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol, Outdoor Rifle, Rifle Silhouette, Pistol Silhouette
Range Access: Private
Click here for a map to the business:


Boonville - Kemper Military School JROTC, 701 3D, Boonville, MO 65233.
Phone: 660-882-5623 X
Facilities include: Indoor Rifle (33 ft), Archery
Range Access: Private
Click here for a map to the business:


Boonville - River Hills Sporting Clays, 22701 Rocheport Rd., Boonville, MO 65233.
Phone: 660-882-9130
Facilities include: Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays
Range Access: Public
Web Site: www.riverhillssportingclays.com
Email: kpickett@mclumber.com
Click here for a map to the business:


Branson - Ozark Shooters Sports Complex, P. O. Box 6518, Branson, MO 65615.
Phone: 417-587-3093
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol (25 yds), Outdoor Rifle (200 yds), Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays
Range Access: Public


Claycomo - Centerfire Indoor Range & Shop, 287 East 69 Hwy, Claycomo , MO 64119.
Phone: 816-455-7468
Facilities include: Indoor Pistol (25 yds)
Hours of Operation: 10-6
Range Access: Public
Click here for a map to the business:


Collins - The Shooting Place, 7035 S.E. 476 Road, Collins, MO 64738.
Phone: 417-646-8269
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol (7 Yds. - 100 Meters), Outdoor Rifle (25 Yds. - 100 Meters), Rifle Silhouette, Pistol Silhouette, Muzzleloading, Trap, Airgun
Range Access: Public
Email: Coldsteeler65@yahoo.com
Click here for a map to the business:


Columbia - Cedar Creek Rod & Gun Club, 1420 CR 276, Columbia, MO 65202.
Phone: 573-474-8609
Facilities include: Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays
Range Access: Public
Web Site: www.cedarcreekrodandgunclub.com
Email: mgates@socket.net
Click here for a map to the business:


Columbia - Green Valley Rifle & Pistol Club, Inc., 4900 Wyatt Lane, Columbia, MO 65255.
Phone: 573-696-3738
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol (25 & 35 yds), Indoor Pistol (50 ft), Outdoor Rifle (200 yds), Rifle Silhouette, Pistol Silhouette, Muzzleloading, Archery
Range Access: Private
Click here for a map to the business:


Columbia - Target Masters, #4101 N. Rangeline Street Columbia, Columbia, MO 65202.
Phone: 573-443-3700
Facilities include: Indoor Pistol (75 ft to 25 yds), Pistol Silhouette, Archery
Range Access: Public
Email: target@tranquility.net
Click here for a map to the business:


Doe Run - 67 Gun Club, Inc., 1678 Henrich Rd., Doe Run, MO 63640.
Phone: 573-431-4569
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol (25 and 50 yds), Outdoor Rifle (25, 50, 100, 200 & 300 yd)
Range Access: Private
Email: fasher1@yahoo.com
Click here for a map to the business:


Fenton - Bullseye Gun & Rod Club, P.O. Box 1104, Fenton, MO 63026.
Phone: 314-386-9105
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol (50 yds), Outdoor Rifle (500 yds), Rifle Silhouette, Pistol Silhouette, Muzzleloading
Range Access: Private


Fort Leonard Wood - Sportsmen Center, Building 2282, Sportsmens Rd., Fort Leonard Wood, MO 65473.
Phone: 573-596-0974
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol (100 M.), Outdoor Rifle (300 M.), Rifle Silhouette, Pistol Silhouette, Muzzleloading, Trap, Skeet, Archery, Airgun
Range Access: Public
Email: holtsclt@wood.army.mil
Click here for a map to the business:


Gravois Mills - Laurie Trap & Skeet, 31590 Hwy 5, Gravois Mills, MO 65037.
Phone: 573-374-6027
Facilities include: Trap, Skeet
Range Access: Public
Web Site: www.lauriemarine.com
Click here for a map to the business:


Higginsville - Lafayette Rod & Gun Club, Rocky Branch Rd., Higginsville, MO 64037.
Phone: 660-237-4444
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol (25 - 200 meters), Outdoor Rifle (50 - 200 meters), Pistol Silhouette, Muzzleloading, Sporting Clays
Range Access: Private
Click here for a map to the business:


High Ridge - Jay Henges Shooting Range, 1100 Antire Road, High Ridge, MO 63049.
Phone: 636-938-9548
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol (15, 25, 50, 75 & 100 yds), Outdoor Rifle (15, 25, 50, 75 & 100 yds), Muzzleloading, Trap, Airgun
Range Access: Public
Click here for a map to the business:


High Ridge - Missouri Dept. of Conservation Henges Range & Training Center, 1100 Antire Rd., High Ridge, MO 63049.
Phone: 636-938-9548
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol (15, 25, 50, 75, 100 yds), Outdoor Rifle (15, 25, 50, 75, 100 yds), Muzzleloading, Trap, Archery
Range Access: Public
Click here for a map to the business:


Holdon - Pioneer Gun Club, 900 N.W. 1571, Holdon, MO 64040.
Phone: 816-743-9218
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol (50 yds), Outdoor Rifle (200 yds), Muzzleloading, Trap, Archery
Range Access: Private
Email: pioneer@planetkc.com
Click here for a map to the business:


Houston - Big Piney Sportsmen's Club, 16866 Hwy B., Houston, MO 65483.
Phone: 417-967-2878
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol (25-200 yds), Outdoor Rifle (200-600 yds), Pistol Silhouette, Trap, Airgun
Range Access: Private
Click here for a map to the business:


Imperial - Catfish Guns Indoor Shooting Center, 900 Jeffco Exec. Blvd., Imperial, MO 63052.
Phone: 636-464-1217
Facilities include: Indoor Pistol (75 FT), Indoor Rifle (75 FT), Archery
Range Access: Public
Email: NE6359@AOL.COM
Click here for a map to the business:


Independence - Crossfire Recreational Center, 21200 E. Truman, Independence, MO 64056.
Phone: 816-796-0023
Facilities include: Indoor Pistol (25 yards), Indoor Rifle (25 yards), Archery, Airgun
Range Access: Public
Email: lakmom@aol.com
Click here for a map to the business:


Jackson - Cape County Gun Club, State Highway 72, Jackson, MO 63755.
Phone: 573-472-5295
Facilities include: Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays
Range Access: Public
Click here for a map to the business:


Jefferson City - United Sportsmen's Club, Henwick Lane, Jefferson City, MO 65101.
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol (50 yds), Outdoor Rifle (500 yds), Pistol Silhouette, Muzzleloading, Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays, Archery, Airgun
Range Access: Private
Email: ber682@unitedsportsmensclub.com
Click here for a map to the business:


Lexington - Rangemasters 4H Shooting Sports, 11656 Hwy O, Lexington, MO 64067.
Phone: 660-259-6455
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol (100 Yds.), Outdoor Rifle (100 Yds.), Muzzleloading, Sporting Clays, Archery, Airgun
Range Access: Private
Email: zeller@iland.net
Click here for a map to the business:


Linn Creek - Missouri Trapshooter Assn, Inc., Rr#1 Box 396 Lake Rd A, Linn Creek, MO 65052.
Phone: 573-346-2449
Facilities include: Trap
Range Access: Public


Macon - Macon "63" Gun Club, 29790 Jigsaw Pl, Macon, MO 63552.
Phone: 660-239-4507
Facilities include: Trap, Skeet
Range Access: Public
Click here for a map to the business:


New London - Ka-Tonka Clay Sports & Hunting, 57290 Cumber Land Trail, New London, MO 63459.
Phone: 573-985-7477
Facilities include: Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays
Range Access: Public
Web Site: www.ka-tonka.com
Email: hunt@ka-tonka.com
Click here for a map to the business:


Owensville - Owensville Gun Club, Hwy 28 west, Owensville, MO 65066.
Phone: 573-437-6166
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol (80 yards), Outdoor Rifle (500 meters), Rifle Silhouette, Pistol Silhouette, Muzzleloading, Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays
Range Access: Private
Click here for a map to the business:


Pacific - St. Louis Skeet and Trap Club, 18854 Franklin Road, Pacific, MO 63069.
Phone: 636-271-4210
Facilities include: Trap, Skeet
Range Access: Public
Click here for a map to the business:


Pevely - Sandy Valley Hunt Club, 2754 Sandy Creek Rd., Pevely, MO 63070.
Phone: 636-475-5266
Facilities include: Sporting Clays
Range Access: Public
Click here for a map to the business:


Princeton - Rattlesnake Ridge Shooting Range, R.R. 2, Princeton, MO 64673.
Phone: 660-748-4624
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol (0-100 yds), Outdoor Rifle (0-300 yds)
Range Access: Private
Email: sstckmn@netins.net
Click here for a map to the business:


Reeds - Bear Holler Shooting Range, 8232 Dogwood LAne, Reeds, MO 64859.
Phone: 417-674-0259
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol (25-100 yds), Outdoor Rifle (25-250 yds), Rifle Silhouette, Pistol Silhouette, Muzzleloading
Hours of Operation: call for appointment
Range Access: Public
Web Site: www.bearholler.tripod.com
Email: bear_holler@yahoo.com
Click here for a map to the business:


Rolla - Central Ozarks Practical Shooters (COPS), 23455 County Road 7640, Rolla, MO 65402.
Phone: (573) 364-8670
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol, Outdoor Rifle
Range Access: Private
Web Site: www.rollanet.org/~bdelp/cops/
Email: pmherman@rollanet.org
Click here for a map to the business:


Salem - Ozark Gun Club, R #4 Box 842, Salem, MO 65560.
Phone: 573-729-4652
Facilities include: Trap, Skeet
Range Access: Public


Smithville - KC Trapshooters Association, 6420 NE 176th St., Smithville, MO 64089.
Phone: 816-532-4427
Facilities include: Trap, Skeet
Range Access: Public
Click here for a map to the business:


Smithville - KCTA Public Shooting Park, 6420 NE 176th St., Smithville, MO 64089.
Phone: 816-532-4427
Facilities include: Trap, Skeet
Range Access: Public
Email: kctalag@excite.com
Click here for a map to the business:


St. Charles - August A. Busch Mem. Conservation Area Range Complex, 2360 Hwy D, St. Charles, MO 63304.
Phone: 636-300-1953
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol (15,25,50,75,100 yds.), Outdoor Rifle (15,25,50,75,100 yds.), Rifle Silhouette, Pistol Silhouette, Muzzleloading, Trap, Skeet, Archery, Airgun
Range Access: Public
Web Site: www.mdc.state.mo.us/areas/ranges/busch
Email: buschrange@mdc.state.mo.us
Click here for a map to the business:


St. Charles - Missouri Dept. of Conservation - August A. Busch Range Complex, 2360 Hwy D, St. Charles, MO 63304.
Phone: 636-441-4554
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol (15, 25, 50, 75, 100 yds), Outdoor Rifle (15, 25, 50, 75, 100 yds), Muzzleloading, Trap, Skeet, Archery, Airgun
Range Access: Public
Email: buschrange@mail.conservation.sate.mo.us
Click here for a map to the business:


St. Louis - Bullseye Indoor Shooting Range, 5100 Manchester Ave., St. Louis, MO 63110.
Phone: 314-781-4867
Facilities include: Indoor Pistol (25 yds), Indoor Rifle (25 yds)
Range Access: Public
Click here for a map to the business:


Warsaw - American Legion, Wildcat Dr. (Old 65 Hwy.), Warsaw, MO 65355.
Phone: (417) 646-8240
Facilities include: Trap
Range Access: Private
Email: sandee@inter-linc.net
Click here for a map to the business:


Washburn - Washburn Shooting Supplies L.L.C., HCR 79 Box 138, Washburn, MO 65772.
Phone: 417-826-5505
Facilities include: Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays
Range Access: Public
Email: wsstrapskeet@mo-net.com


Willard - Rocky Holler, 6839 N. Hwy 44, Willard, MO 65781.
Phone: 417-868-8834
Facilities include:
Range Access: Public
Click here for a map to the business:


Wright City - Benchrest Rifle Club of St. Louis, 2045 Kohn Rd, Wright City, MO 63390.
Phone: 314-745-8144
Facilities include: Outdoor Pistol (up to 100 yds), Outdoor Rifle (up to 600 yds), Rifle Silhouette
Range Access: Private
Email: dballoi@mail.win.org
Click here for a map to the business:

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Baba Louie
September 21, 2003, 08:08 PM
Ford et al,

Great news on taking class, early bird.

A question or two for you based on my taking CCW class in NV awhile back and having a keen interest in MO CCW...

Did your instructor have class material that you can use in a court of law as evidence of your training should you ever need to actually, you know, use a firearm in self defense? Things like a notebook chock full of literature, video-tape of class, etc. that can be used to help sway a "potential future jury" and make your attorney's job a little easier? Force continuum, Ability, Opportunity and Intent/Jeopardy, retreat, when is lethal force OK and (more importantly) when is lethal force NOT OK? Stuff like that.

How many hours of shooting and/or rounds down range did you actually spend on that portion of the 8 hr. class?

Are you, or would you consider taking additional class/range time by a qualified instructor to show "potential future jury" that you went "above and beyond" the legal minimum's, thus reassuring them of your all around capabilities in knowing your stuff, etc.? And if so, who or where would you recommend... Ray Chapman's Academy in Columbia? Is 24-32 hrs of training better than 8 hours or 1200 rds downrange vs. 50 rds? (Rhetorical question)

Does MO have a specific requirement like NV does and limit your carry firearms to one or two that you've qualified with and are listed on your CCW, or is it you alone as the operator with any old handgun you feel like carrying/shooting that day (this goes back to showing the "potential future jury" that you know and have trained with that particular arm leaving them no "reasonable doubt" about your skill at arms with a specific arm).

Lastly, my CCW class was taught not to scrimp on three things... 1. Your gun. 2. Your ammunition. 3. Your attorney.

Who is your attorney? Do you have his/her card and phone number on you? How much moola and time is it going to take to have him/her ready to spring to action? Remember, attorney will need to spring your bail, be present for interview with police and later defend you in a criminal and civil courtroom.

Finally, is your instructor willing to testify in court about all of the above as he/she WILL be called in as a witness in both the criminal and/or civil litigation you'll be getting into should you need?

There's a reason I ask all of these stupid questions as my Dad is getting older and more infirm and I might find myself moving back to western MO in the near future.

Points to ponder.

Thanks for listing the various ranges. I take it they all offer classes?

Adios

Ford
September 21, 2003, 08:33 PM
Baba Louie,
You have some really good question. I will try to answer them the best I can.

The only material that I brought home from the class was a print out of the new law that has been passed. 2 targets full of holes and a Certificate that I completed and passed the class. All those things were talked about but I have nothing that would be "proof". The Instructor did say that if something ever did happen that he would have to go to court along with the owner of the range.

We spent about two and a half to three hours actuall range time. You are only allowed by law 50 practice rounds and 20 rounds for qualifing. You must put 15 of 20 targets in a B-27 target to pass.

I would be interested in another class. I am going to check into something like Thunder Ranch, Gunsite etc... Never heard of the one you mentioned. I will check that out as well.

I forgot to ask the question about how many guns are you allowed to carry. I did ask that Instructor if I needed to qualify with my Kahr PM9 and Kimber Compact CDP. He said that it was not necessary. So I shot only my Kimber. You didnt even have to qualify with the gun that you planned on carrying but the Instructor strongly urged us to. The law said nothing about having to qualify with each gun you wanted to carry or how many guns you could carry at one time. If it did say I misssed it.

My attorney?? My work provides attorneys free of charge to employees.

The Instructor did seem willing to go to court to discuss what we had been taught if ever need be.

OH I do not know if all of the ranges listed offer classes. You would just have to call and see. Some people were just trying to find a range close to them and these I think are all ranges that offer classes taught by NRA Instructors.

mwithers72
September 21, 2003, 08:47 PM
When I took my class in TN the Instructor told the class that we could carry any hand gun we wanted but, If you decided to carry a different one then it would be best that you come by during one of the range session to qualify with that weapon in front of him. So that when you have to use said weapon he can say in a court that you were profecent(sp??) with it. I agree with him why take the risk it only takes a couple hours (at max) and 50 rounds. He also stated that some people shoot the 50 required to pass the course and that is all. He recomends that you go to the range more than 1 a year, he stated that it would look better on you.

mark

Baba Louie
September 21, 2003, 09:20 PM
Ford,

Wow, fast response dude.

Does your employers attorney (and thus your employer) know you plan on having a concealed weapon? Do they have rules pro or con? You might want to have a serious heart to heart with said att'y real soon. Are THEY going to want to enter into this potential fracas and expose themselves for any liability (they've probably got deeper pockets than you if you know what I mean).

Will you always be working for that same employer?

So basically, your instructor and the range owner are going to show up in court and say, "Yep good old Ford was there in class, he listened and shot what he was supposed to" or will they also be named in a lawsuit (the deep pocket thing again) and have an attorney of their own.

I ask these silly questions because my BIL is an attorney down in Springfield MO and he and I have had several "heart to heart's" on this subject, so please don't think I'm casting aspersions wildly about. He's pretty much a flaming Democrat and I love him dearly, but according to him, I stand way too far to the right of Atilla the Hun.

Get a copy of the class syllabus. Print out my questions and ask your instructor his thoughts over lunch (you buy) please.

Be prepared for the worst. Presenting class material and an 8 hour video tape as evidence gives the opposition something to wade through and re-think their position if you did everything right the fateful day you have to actually use lethal force.

Also... a hint... jury selection... Keep that thought in mind for later use... it could save your life criminally and financially (think OJ and his two trial differences)

www.chapmanacademy.com

Should do you right. World Class, right there 3 hours from home.

15 of 20? What range? Lighting level? Indoors or Out? Adrenilin up or typical range session? Night sights or plain black? Single action, double action semi, revolver or what? Ammo used? (Think like the opposing attorney here and work with me) How does that compare to say, the local police/sheriff or Hiway Patrol? Same gun, ammo, training? Former police type gun, BUG... you get the idea.

Does the KCMO Police Dept have a Citizen's Academy? If so, take the class.

Las Vegas does and I took the class (it was a hoot) and I got to shoot with LV Metro on their range as part of the curriculum and as an alumni we have an annual competition against the police. Think court here. Evidence to show you being a good guy and scads of training and shooting ability.

Plus, it never hurts to know the local po-po armourer on a first name basis (hint hint... potential witness)

Enough for now.

Take it very seriously. Plan on the worst and have some course of action past the actual use of arms.

Always think retreat and protection of your family. Work out a plan with loved ones at home, in car, at work (can you carry at work???), shopping, etc.

Enjoy life.
I just talked to Mom and Dad and discussed coming back for a visit soon (Indep). Maybe I'll look you KC guys up if time allows. Could be fun.

Adios

lessthan
September 21, 2003, 09:23 PM
Hi Ford,


Just curious:

Did the range evaluation include presentation from holster?

At what distance was the qualification? 25 yds?

Thanks!

Ford
September 21, 2003, 09:27 PM
Yeah I am sitting by the computer watching the Bills, Dolphins game.
You bring up good points. Hopefully someone will read this and remember to ask his/her instructor these questions.

Ford
September 21, 2003, 09:29 PM
Were not required to draw from holster. 15 of 20 shots in B-27 target from 7 yards. Normall range conditions

Pumpkinheaver
September 21, 2003, 10:28 PM
Ford,

you can remove catfish guns( in imperial) from your list they are now out of buisness.

Kamicosmos
September 22, 2003, 08:37 AM
Those are all excellent questions, and many are ones I myself have been pondering since the Over ride.

I am going to start 'interviewing' lawyers soon. I figure I need one anyways on retainer, and I definetly want a pro gun one. Would really blow to need them for that, and they go: 'You were using a GUN?!?! Uh....'

The course questions is the main reason I'm waiting. I want to wait untill the state puts out the actual guidelines. I have no doubts about passing the qual course, but why take a bunch that may not be recognized, or may just barely meet the states requirements? That said, I do like the suggestions of taking a couple different ones just to be covered.


I am also extremely interested in taking one of the Big Schools classes, ie Thunder Ranch, LFI or something similar. I will look into the Chapman Academy, especially since they are only a few hours drive away. Sure is funny how any interest I had in CCW topics has suddenly gotten alot more serious, eh? :D


On that note, perhaps all of us future CCWer's here could try to organize some kind of THR outing to one of the schools?

fmjcafe
September 22, 2003, 10:04 AM
Hey, Ford. How much did it cost to take the class?

clipse
September 22, 2003, 10:04 AM
I have my name on the list for the crossfire range in claycomo. I am getting a Florida Non-Resident permit since I am 21 and you have to be 23 to get a Missouri permit. I actually don't even have to take the class to get the Florida permit since they will take my Hunters Education safety certificate. I still intend on taking the course though.



clipse

John Ross
September 22, 2003, 10:49 AM
Baba Louie and others:

No need to wait "until the state puts out actual guidelines" on courses before you take one. The requirements are written in the law. If your sheriff won't take a course certificate issued by an instructor in a different county, he will be sued and compelled to do so. That said, take it easy on these guys. They're scrambling to be ready Oct. 14 since they didn't bother to listen to us on May 5 when we told them it wouldn't matter if Holden vetoed the law as we had enough votes to override. (If Holden hadn't vetoed, they'd be even worse off. He vetoed two DAYS before the law would have taken effect. Sheriffs had made NO prep.

A meeting with the Sheriff's Association Friday 9/19 determined they would have a draft of a standardized certificate by end of business today (Greg Jeffery and I did one in Powerpoint for them and they want it to look a little different.) Expect a final version within 10 days, downloadable from their website.

Regarding the whole being sued thing: Yes I'll testify you took the course and what it entailed. But that's not a big deal. Don't be afraid of your own shadow here. I'll give you the same request I gave the undecided about carry in Missouri: Don't spend all your time dreaming about what could in theory happen. Look at what HAS happened in other states. How often does a licenseholder get sued after shooting a BG? Very very seldom, and almost always because he used deadly force when it wasn't justified, like shooting a guy in the back running off with his TV set. Remember the engineer's creed: "When the results don't conform to the theory, believe the results and come up with a new theory."

All this is discussed IN DEPTH in my course.

The licensing course is to get you in compliance with the MO requirements. It is NOT an advanced course like Thunder Ranch (those are available.) Think driver's ed to meet the State requirement for driving, not the Bondurant or Skip Barber schools for advanced training. The hours required to get a pilot's license are very low compared to the hours that most employers consider indicative of being a skilled, experienced pilot.

That said, I just finished my second Missouri class and got a lot of very positive comments from people with decades of shooting experience. Since I've got to be with you for 8 hours, I figure I might as well give you the best, most interesting class that I can. I have another class Tuesday 9/23 that is full, and one Wed. 9/24 that has openings.

You can make a career of "What if?" Let me pose another What if:

What if you get tagged legally after a shooting and in court the prosecutor says "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, what kind of man would go to a course called the 'Lethal Force Institute?' The defendant was just ITCHING to kill some poor soul, and he even had his legal defense all lined up in advance. Any normal person would have just read the law--it's quite clear--and known when the use of deadly force was justified. This man wanted to use force when it WASN'T justified, to get away with murder. Don't let him do it."

The above scenario is *at least* as likely as the scenario of getting in trouble for using handloads in a shooting (which has never happened up to this point.)

Email me if you need a Missouri course in the St. Louis area soon.

www.john-ross.net

Follow the link.

JR

Ford
September 22, 2003, 05:22 PM
Kamicosmos,
I would be interested in taking some kind of class as well if I could get the time off work. If you try to get some guys together consider me.

It cost $175 for the class that I took

John Ross,
I looked at your web site and you have to say the least a very outstanding deal on you class. To bad you don't live in KC.

Harold Mayo
September 23, 2003, 09:00 PM
There is a training facility in SW MO that will give an in-depth CCW class that will cover the basic requirement plus give the students a little better idea of what to actually do with their sidearms and how to carry them. Although they haven't posted anything on their site yet, they have had lesson plans drawn up since 1995 for it and they should be starting before too long. It will be a two day/16 hour course. The school has been in operation for years and years and is less well-known in public circles than the Chapman Academy but has a good following and they provide training all over the country. I won't post any more about my experiences with it over the years on a public forum but I'll answer any questions that anyone might have via e-mail. They have been reluctant to put up a web site and their site is not the greatest but it contains some information.

www.aptacademy.com


edit: Oh, by the way, the APT will also recommend some good attorneys that are affiliated with them. I know of at least one in the Springfield area and there are others scattered around MO. One of my first exposures to the place was when one of their mobile training teams visited my home town and I took a handgun course in a cow pasture behind the prosecuting attorney's house.

FireInTheHole
September 24, 2003, 10:23 AM
What is a b-27 target, some sort of siluette?

Bill Hook
September 24, 2003, 03:57 PM
What is a b-27 target, some sort of siluette?

Yep, it's a silhouette.





I've got relatives in MO (KC area) who're bugging me for more info.

They want to know where to take the course. They bought their gun at Bullseye on the KS side and took an introductory course there around 8 years ago and feel comfortable there, if she can take the course out of state.

This is an aunt who has carpal tunnel, so she isn't so confident about being able to put 20 rounds of .38 on target, at least w/o hurting her wrists and losing feeling.

Question she asked was whether she only had to keep it in the black, or did she have to keep her shots inside the rings?

clipse
September 24, 2003, 04:24 PM
According to the bill she would have to hit the silhouette 15 out of 20 times.



23. A certificate of firearms safety training course completion may be issued to any applicant by any qualified firearms safety instructor. On the certificate of course completion the qualified firearms safety instructor shall affirm that the individual receiving instruction has taken and passed a firearms safety course of at least eight hours in length taught by the instructor that included:


(10) A live fire test administered to the applicant while the instructor was present of twenty rounds from a standing position or its equivalent at a distance from a B-27 silhouette target, or an equivalent target, of seven yards.



24. A qualified firearms safety instructor shall not give a grade of "passing" to an applicant for a concealed carry endorsement who:


(3) During the live fire testing portion of the course fails to hit the silhouette portion of the targets with at least fifteen rounds.

Ford
September 24, 2003, 06:27 PM
Bill Hook,
You said she bought the gun at Bullseye. Did you mean The Bullet Hole? If so the Bullet Hole is giving classes. They are in Overland Park, KS off of Shawnee Mission Parkway. Denny's Guns in North Kansas City is signing up people for classes and sending them to the Bullet Hole because they do not have a range of their own. I don't know if the Bullet Hole will give classes and cut out the middle man. If in fact you did mean Bullseye, sorry I wasnt trying to correct you I have just never heard of that one in Kansas.

Fifteen of the twenty shots have to be inside the ring. abut that is a good majority of the black.

Bill Hook
September 25, 2003, 01:22 PM
Yes, I meant the Bullet Hole. I got that confused w/ another range/gunstore I shot at - not in KS.

Harold Mayo
September 25, 2003, 02:09 PM
More info on the APT CCW course:

There WILL be an 8 hour course with a two-day/16 hour course as an option. It's up on their web site.

www.aptacademy.com

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