.308 more than 30-06?


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nachosgrande
December 3, 2008, 05:52 PM
Was wandering through Walmart yesterday and saw they carry the Mossberg ATR 100 in 30-06 for $249. Not bad, almost cheap enough to be an impulse purchase, also the wife was in a good mood and gave me the go ahead. I ask if they carry it in .308 and they said they could order it for me for $300. Any idea why the big price discrepancy? If anything, I though the 06 would be more.

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Decker
December 3, 2008, 05:58 PM
My guess would be walmart ordered 10000 of them in 06 and got a price reduction, but has to order a single one in 308............

Sinixstar
December 3, 2008, 06:00 PM
Might just be because they have to order it.

d2wing
December 3, 2008, 06:44 PM
The 30-06 is more popular. More people will chose the 30-06 so they are in stock. The .308 is less apt to stocked or shipped as part of a larger shipment or production run therefore slightly more expensive on a economy of scale. The .308 is a shortened version of the 06. The 06 is available in more cartridges and has more power. Why buy less when you could buy more cheaper. Some people prefer the .308 for various reasons, but it would be real hard to tell the difference in a hunting rifle. What a great country, you get a choice and neither is wrong, both are great.

24kshooter
December 3, 2008, 06:55 PM
Sorry while the 30:06 is a fine cartridge with an over 100 year history it is less popular than the 308WIN in today's marketplace. The way Walmart merchandises firearms is to pick up slow selling - seconds - or promotional items from the mfg. at cut rates and then offer the consumer a better buy on a the firearm. Special order and more popular caliber equals more money you are going to have to pay.

gbran
December 3, 2008, 07:06 PM
Last year I went to my local gun store and fondled a hangun in the case. It was nice to see it in real life and actually handle it. I came back next week to buy it, but it was gone. They said they could order me one, but the price they quoted was about $75 more.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 3, 2008, 07:35 PM
Sorry while the 30:06 is a fine cartridge with an over 100 year history it is less popular than the 308WIN in today's marketplace.

I do not believe that that is even close to being true. The .30-06 is wildly popular, and is one of the few calibers ALWAYS offered by every rifle manuf. in every conceivable long action version of their rifles. The .308 is far far less popular overall, among the general gun buying public, though it is more popular with the "sniper/tactical/precision" crowd. I'd bet that there are 6 or 7 rifles in .30-06 for every rifle sold in .308. At least 3 to 1 bare minimum. However, I could be wrong. :p :)

Mr. d2wing nailed it above, +1.

woof
December 3, 2008, 07:51 PM
There might be more rifles out there in 06 but I would bet more are sold in 08 each year. I would also be that more 08 ammo is sold.

Action_Can_Do
December 3, 2008, 08:10 PM
I know for a fact that companies that sell reloading dies sell far more for 30-06 than 308.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 3, 2008, 09:03 PM
There might be more rifles out there in 06 but I would bet more are sold in 08 each year. I would also be that more 08 ammo is sold.

I serioulsly doubt it, but let's have a look-see:


OK, for starters, here are the Remington models offered in .30-06 but not in .308:
1. 700 Alaskan Ti
2. 700 BDL
3. 700 CDL (The most popular Remington)
4. 700 CDL - SF
5. 700 CDL - Boone & Crockett
6. 700 Mountain LSS
7. 700 SPS Buckmasters Edition
8. 700 SPS DM
9. 700 XCR (Second most popular Remington)

Here are the Remington models offered in .308 but not .30-06:
1. 700 VTR
2. 700 XCR Compact Tactical
3. 700 SPS Tactical
4. 700 SPS Varmint
5. 700 VLS
6. 700 VSF
7. R25
8. Model 7

All the rest are offered in either both calibers, or neither caliber. So that's 9 to 8, seemingly about a wash. But I'd bet that the hunting classes outsell the tactical and other short action classes on the order of 3 to 1 or 4 to 1, at least.

Let's go to Winchester next:
1. Model 70 Sporter Deluxe: .30-06 but not .308
2. Model 70 Super grade: .30-06 but not .308
The other Wins are either both calibers or neither. So that maker is 2 to zero on models

Next, here are the Browning models offered in .30-06 but not in .308:
1. A-bolt Composite Stalker
2. A-bolt Eclipse Hunter with BOSS
3. A-bolt Medallion
4. A-bolt Medallion, Left Hand
5. BAR Long Trac
6. BAR Long Trac Stalker
7. BAR Long Trac Left Hand
8. BAR Long Trac MONBU

Here are the Browning models offered in .308 but not .30-06:
1. A-Bolt M1000 Eclipse
2. A-Bolt Micro Hunter
3. A-bolt Micro Hunter Left Hand
4. A-bolt Mountain Ti
5. A-bolt Stainless Hunter
6. A-bolt Stainless M1000 Eclipse
7. BAR Short Trac
8. BAR Short Trac Stalker
9. BAR Short Trac Left Hand
10. BAR Short Trac MONBU

All the rest are offered in either both calibers, or neither caliber.

Next, Savage. Suffice it to say that I counted them carefully and there are: 24 models offered in .30-06 but not .308, but 29 models offered in .308 but not .30-06, so .308 Win "wins" from this maker.

Next, Marlin. Again, I counted them carefully and there are: 2 models offered in .30-06 but not .308, and zero models offered in .308 but not .30-06, so .30-06 "wins" from this maker.

Next, Mossberg. Again, I counted them carefully and there are: 14 models offered in .30-06 but not .308, and 7 models offered in .308 but not .30-06, so .30-06 "wins" from this maker. {Edit: Wait, no, on Mossberg, it's not 14 in 30-06 but not .308, it's 14 in .30-06 period, and 7 in .308 period, but the difference in model numbers still give it a 7 advantage here}.

Next, Sako. Again, I counted them carefully and there are: 1 models offered in .30-06 but not .308, and zero models offered in .308 but not .30-06, so .30-06 "wins" from this maker.

Next, Tikka. Again, I counted them carefully and there are: zero models offered in .30-06 but not .308, and 1 models offered in .308 but not .30-06, so .308 "wins" from this maker.

Next, Weatherby. Again, I counted them carefully and there are: zero models offered in .30-06 but not .308, and 3 models offered in .308 but not .30-06, so .308 "wins" from this maker.

Next, NEF / H&R. Again, I counted them carefully and there are: 3 models offered in .30-06 but not .308, and 2 models offered in .308 but not .30-06, so .30-06 "wins" from this maker.

You get the idea. They are much closer than I had suspected, but the running totals so far are 63 models offered in .30-06 but not .308, but only 50 models offered in .308 but not .30-06 - you're gonna see about the same ratio as you go along to other manufacturers, since they make what sells best. I don't think there's any contest whatsoever in terms of actual number rifles sold, and ammo sold.

And, keep in mind that the vast majority of these particular models which are offered in .308 but not .30-06 are the "Varmint" style models. I don't think there are nearly the number of varmint hunters as there are big game hunters (Bubbas who go out for deer season, and that's the extent of their hunting for the year). Yes, there are also some "tactical" models, but this is also a much smaller market than the big game hunters. Nothing to sneeze at, mind you, but much smaller.

Shawnee
December 3, 2008, 09:05 PM
I am convinced that IF 30/06 rifles and ammo are really the top sellers - it most definitely is not because it is truly the most popular.

I think the sales figures quoted are most often the sales of new guns - and it is not at all valid to simply make the assumption that the "top gun' is there because all buyers know what they are buying and it is thus "the best" or the most truly popular.

New product sales relies very heavily on "name recognition" (which is why we have advertising blitzes). Thompson's Water Seal is one of the highest selling products of that nature but it is also one of the poorest performers. It is a sales leader because the customer recognizes the name.

Same thing applies tp the 30/06. Joe Newbie goes to the store and doesn't recognize 7x57 or 257 Roberts or 260 Remington - but he does recognize 30/06 and, of course, the meth-head sales girl says "Oh it's our best seller" and Presto - another new rifle sale gets logged into the 30/06 column - not because it is a "popular" caliber but because the buyer didn't have a clue..

Wallworld and K-rip-off know this and so they stock mostly the caliber they can depend on their unsuspecting customers to recognize. And if they stock more of a caliber they are going to push more of that caliber out the door with sales and advertising. Not Rocket Science. Pretending those sales are due to earned-popularity is B.S., at best.

I think a more accurate measure of any caliber's "popularity" is looking at how many you see on the "used" sale racks - in other words, how many people are ditching the caliber in favor of something else.

And the leading caliber on the "used gun for sale" racks (barring EBR stuff) is the 30/06. And that is no surprise at all because pepople buy them, find out they are more recoil and blast and P.I.T.A. than necessary and they ditch them for more sensible calibers.

It could be argued that the 30/06 has more rifles on the "used for sale" rack simply because they sell more new rifles - and that's partly true. But the number of used 30/06 rifles for sale is way out of proportion to just the new sales.

Go on Gunbroker and plug in Remington 742 or 760 and look at the % that are 30/06. Ditto the .308 in the Win. 88 and Win. 100.

Or compare the prices of Win. model 70s in 30/06 to the prices of the same rifle in . 243 or .264 or .270 - you'll see the 30/06s are not only much more commonly for sale, but are comparative giveaways.

Or look at the prices of Remington 700s in 30/06 compared to the same rifle in .243 or .270.

Or look at the prices of the old Savage 99s in .257 or .250 and compare them to Win. model 70s in 30/06.

And think about it - of all the "classic" calibers that inflate the price of ANY rifle model - NONE of them is the 30/06.

You'll pay extra for a .250 Sav., and a 257 Roberts, and a .38/55, and a .264 Win., and a .280 Rem., and a .284, and a .256 Win., and a .44/40, and a 6.5 Rem. and a .225 Win. - but you will NEVER, EVER have to pay more because a gun is chambered for the 30/06.

The 30/06's false claim to popularity due to quailty is really a popularity based on convenient one-caliber marketing to consumers who don't know any better.

And for all the crowing 30/06 fans do about how they need it for those 700-yd. shots at "once-in-a-lifetime" elk - go look at the poll about long shots and notice that the 30/06 is definitely NOT the caliber people are using for their long-range shooting.

Though the .308 is not even close to being a hunter's Gift from Heaven, I would be willing to bet a lot of money that people keep their .308s, and keep using them longer than they do their 30/06s and that the 30/06 gets 10x more closet time than their .308. I would also bet .308s stay on the "used" rack much, much less time than the 30/06s do.


That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

:cool:

Dave/hoff
December 3, 2008, 09:22 PM
Since the thread has gone off on one the infamous HighRoad tangents, I'll add my 2 worth.

My guess is that if you walk in to any isolated, backwoods, off-the-beaten-track, general store, you'll get your choice of ammo for any gun you own...so long as it's a 12 gauge, 30-aught-six, or thirty-thirty. These are the calibers that (probably) most people own.

I agree with the opinion that the '06 is (still) more popular than the .308, and that's why they're cheaper.

woof
December 3, 2008, 09:30 PM
When I said more rifles out there I did not mean new rifles and their chamberings, I meant actual rifles out there from '03s to present. It shouldn't be hard to contact a few ammo companies and find out which round has the highest annual sales figures. I'm betting .308 and I really doubt you can find a backwoods store that stocks 06 and not 08. Expand it to the mother cartridges whole family and 08 walks away with five progeny while 06 has what, .270 and obscure .35 Whelen and .25-06.

elmerfudd
December 3, 2008, 09:30 PM
Though the .308 is not even close to being a hunter's Gift from Heaven, I would be willing to bet a lot of money that people keep their .308s, and keep using them longer than they do their 30/06s and that the 30/06 gets 10x more closet time than their .308. I would also bet .308s stay on the "used" rack much, much less time than the 30/06s do.

Oddly enough, I agree with most of that, except for the part about the .308 not being a gift from heaven. I really like the .308 quite a bit but I'm not quite so crazy about the 30-06. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me to have an inch longer receiver and the weight and scope mounting hassles that entails simply to shoot a cartridge with only minor performance gains over the .308.

And yes, my 30-06 gets way more closet time than any of my .308's.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 3, 2008, 09:35 PM
I'm betting .308 and I really doubt you can find a backwoods store that stocks 06 and not 08.

You have got to be joking. There are probably hundreds, if not thousands, of backwoods gas stations and mom & pop stores that stock .30-06 and .308 is nowhere to be seen, leastways around here....

.30-06 is clearly the most popular NOW, although it's *margin* of popularity is decreasing. It was way way way more popular just 20-30 years ago. It probably outsells .308 in rifles by 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 now, but probably did 5 to 1, or 10 to 1 around 30 years ago.

Shawnee, of course you make a good point, buy your entire "rant" misses the point that the meaning of "popular", by its very definition, is "what sells the most units"? and nothing more. It is irrelevant to the status as most popular as to WHY it is most popular with Joe Schmoe, be it ignorance, marketing, or any other reason. Unless you're trying to create a new definition of the word "popular". :p

Shawnee
December 3, 2008, 09:49 PM
""popular", by its very definition, is "what sells""


Trouble with that is the 30/06-ers infer that its' so-called popularity is because it is the "best" or "most appropriate" or the most highly thought of hunting caliber for everything - and that is absolute Blarney.

By the by - Who cares if you can buy 30/06 ammo at Victoria's Secret - it isn't necessary. .308 and .243 and .270 and 7mm/08 and 30/30 ammo is sold at 32,000,000 stores here. To boast that the 30/06 is "more available" because it is sold at 32,000,001 stores is the height of Silliness.

:cool:

P.S. You bought 6 guns in the last 6 weeks - how many are 30/06s ?

;)

jpwilly
December 3, 2008, 09:49 PM
I got my ATR in 30-06! I like the long action and the extra 100-200fps in most loads.

elmerfudd
December 3, 2008, 09:52 PM
I'm not so sure about the cartridge sales part. One guy with an M1A, FAL or AR10 can go through as much ammo in a year as 100 box a year hunters. Most of the serious shooters I see at the range with 30-06's have a box of reloads sitting next to them and spend most of their time talking in between shots while the barrel cools. As far as hunting rifles go, I see more of a trend towards fast magnums.

Shawnee
December 3, 2008, 10:06 PM
You make a good point, Elmaer, about the high quantities of ammo burned for formal target competitions. If it weren't for Skeet, the 28ga. would be in the same boat as the 16ga. today, and probably worse.

And if we deduct sales to the military, the .308 and the 30/06 would probably not even make the Top Ten.

:cool:

nachosgrande
December 3, 2008, 10:20 PM
You guys just flooded me with waaay tooooo much info. I was hoping someone could just tell me it is or isn't worth the extra $50. From what I'm told the .308 is more accurate at longer ranges, but I couldn't take anything larger than deer with it. I'm also told the 30-06 will give me any game short of a brown bear, but with less accuracy at longer ranges. Any of this true?

elmerfudd
December 3, 2008, 10:29 PM
I think they probably still would. There are just so many 30-06's out there and the .308 is popular in autoloaders which use a disproportionate number of cartridges relative to their numbers.

My guess for most popular cartridge in terms of sheer numbers sold would have to be the .223/5.56 followed by the 7.62x39. Where I shoot it seems there is almost always someone at the range with either an AR, SKS or AK and they generally go through 100 rounds or more in a session.

I also think these rounds are wildly under reported when it comes to sales data. Sales of Golden Tiger, Hotshot and surplus ammo are huge, but I doubt they are included at all.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 3, 2008, 10:38 PM
Ya know, there *could* be ammo for sale somewhere inside Victoria's Secret, and I'd never notice, what with me ogling the skimpy neglige's.

I dunno; it's a lot closer than I thought. None are .30-06s of my recent purchases, but I do have one in the safe! (What DID I buy in the last few months, Shawnee? A .243 win rifle, a .45 colt rifle, a 28 ga O/U, a .454 casull revolver, a 7.62x39 AK, a .45 cal ML, two .50 cal MLs, a 5.56x45 EBR, and that's it! - I think :) ).

The .30-06 is in the minority however, but I found a great deal on a sporterized (nicely) US 1917 ($150). I don't think .30-06 is any BETTER than .308, just more popular in the strict sense of selling more guns. As for ammo, the .308 tactical guys may shoot enough extra ammo to make that one a horse race. Yes, if you also count into the total 7.62x51 surplus style ammo from the 7.62 EBR guys, then I think that wins in ammo sales (but that ain't ".308", technically). Look it doesn't matter, does it? - why am I obsessed with this - we're stompin on piss ants here - LOL! :D

To answer the OPs question of "Is it worth an extra $50 for .308?" No, not unless you want to shoot off the shelf MATCH quality ammo in more varieties than .30-06; then yes it is. .308 has some great match loads in a nice variety.

Frog48
December 3, 2008, 10:38 PM
Speaking strictly for myself... Several years ago, I was in the market for a deer rifle. I looked at all the new, cool, whizbang calibers. But after much consideration, I settled on the .30-06 for these reasons:

> It is available at every mom and pop store, bait shop, gas station, quick-e-mart, etc, whereas other calibers often are not. If I misplace a box of ammo on a hunting trip, I may be quite a hike from a decent gun shop or sporting goods store.

> Theres nothing that other calibers can do that the .30-06 cant do, within the context of deer hunting.

> Recoil from .30-06 is not as bad as people say. If/when its an issue, I can use Remington's "Managed Recoil" loads.

jaholder1971
December 3, 2008, 10:43 PM
My guess is that if you walk in to any isolated, backwoods, off-the-beaten-track, general store, you'll get your choice of ammo for any gun you own...so long as it's a 12 gauge, 30-aught-six, or thirty-thirty. These are the calibers that (probably) most people own.


+1.

Better add .270 to that list, too.

rust collector
December 3, 2008, 10:48 PM
Nachosgrande, caliber popularity is probably not all that relevant, although clearly fun to debate. In truth, numbers of cartridges sold is either closely guarded marketing data, or just a WAG because of all the non-SAAMI connected sources.

I suspect that the price disparity was due to the 30-06 having been purchased on a special buy or the wholesale price of the rifle having increased since the '06 was stocked.

If the 30-06 must be better than the 308 because of a few feet per second, the 300 win mag must be better yet. In truth, they're all a compromise, and both your choices would do a fine job for you. I like 308 because there is lots of good brass and loading data available. If you want to launch bullets bigger than 180 grains, the 30-06 will give a bit better performance. Beyond that, there's more heat than light

hankdatank1362
December 3, 2008, 10:50 PM
I would wager, and believe it's a pretty safe bet, that many, MANY more .30-'06 rifles are sold than .308 - at least when we qualify that the rifle must be bolt-action. If you throw semi-autos in there, I'll bet the number even out, but I would reckon that the .30-'06 would still win in the sheer amount of rifles slod every year, regargless of action type.

This is not because it's "better"... it's a more well-known cartridge. Every bubba and leroy in America has a .30-'06.

Actually, I would much prefer a .308, simply for the plethora of available ballistic/trajectory/dope research on a myriad of different loadings over a .30-'06 any day.

Also, I would not be suprised if there was more .308 ammo sold every year, especially when we factor in imported ammo. Remember all those old SA battle packs? I don't think the Greek surplus sold throught the CMP was popular enough to offset that, plus I don't think .30-'06 is made by Wolf, Golden Tiger, or any other combloc ammo companies.

There are more .308 autoloaders, so many more shots of .308 are taken. Hell, you can dump hundreds of rounds in a single range trip. How many .30-'06 owners take more than a few shots every year? A couple to sight in or confirm zero, and maybe a handfull at deer, if they're lucky.

.308 is more popular among SHOOTERS, while .30-'06 is more popular among the general public at large. But we do more shooting in a weekend than they do all year. But they buy the majority of (bolt action) rifles sold.

Shawnee
December 3, 2008, 11:17 PM
Nachosgrande....

Whoever told you the .308 was limited to deer was pulling your leg.

The .308 is more than enough for anything in this hemisphere and that includes the biggest nastiest Brown Bear born in the last 300 years.

For that matter, the famous gun writer and hunter Jack O'Conner wrote in one of his books.... "The first two Grizzly Bears I shot with my .270 hit the ground so hard they bounced."

The whole .30 caliber parade is pure mescal.

:cool:

elmerfudd
December 3, 2008, 11:44 PM
The .308 is pretty versatile and I wouldn't hesitate to use it on elk, but for moose, buffalo or big bears I'd want something bigger.

Then again, very, very few of us will ever hunt any of those and chances are if you ever get the chance you already have some strong opinions about which cartridges are suitable.

jpwilly
December 4, 2008, 12:26 AM
308 Match ammo in a 308 Match rifle with a Match
Shooter can comfortably beat the same Match 30-06. They actually had to reduce the size of the high power targets back in the 70's because of this.

BUT In an ATR shooting hunting ammo at few hundred yrds I highly doubt most would be able to see the difference between the two.

The 308's additional accuracy is believed to be from the shorter fatter case and optimal 90% fill ratio allowing the powder to burn more efficiently thereby pushing bullets down the tube more consistently from shot to shot.

Txhillbilly
December 4, 2008, 12:45 AM
Yall crack me up,you sound like little kids arguing over who got the bigger piece of candy. What does it matter,if you like short action rifles/long action rifles. The average shooter couldn't ever see the difference in the ballistics between the two and the price difference isn't worth worrying about with the ammo or the gun. I pesonally don't shoot 308,but do shoot 30/06 & 300 Win Mag,and I really can't tell the difference between them,unless I'm shooting beyond 250-300yrds.

And the reason the gun instock is cheaper,is that they have them at their Distribution Centers,and the one they have to order comes from a gun wholesaler and they don't get the volume discount on it that they do on the guns they stock in their own warehouses.

Ridgerunner665
December 4, 2008, 01:03 AM
Txhillbilly,

Its not about the ballistic difference between the two...its about the "inherent accuracy" of one of them.

Ridgerunner665
December 4, 2008, 01:08 AM
And I agree with Shawnee...

There is no other rifle I'd be more comfortable with than my 308 if I were hunting the biggest baddest bear that currently lives in this country.

As for moose...same thing...give me a solidly built 165/8 grain bullet (Barnes, TBBC, Partition, etc.) at 2,650 fps and it will work just fine.

freonr22
December 4, 2008, 05:33 AM
Ya know, there *could* be ammo for sale somewhere inside Victoria's Secret, and I'd never notice, what with me ogling the skimpy neglige's. i love it!!!


ps off track anyone know of an ar in 30-06??? i duno if cobbs make um but think about it not an ar10 but an ar.06??

woof
December 4, 2008, 07:18 AM
What I want to know is - who cares if .30-06 is on the shelf in some gas station in Podunk?

donkee
December 4, 2008, 07:50 AM
All I can tell ya is that my safe has 6 30-06 caliber rifles and no .308...

I hope this helps...

:)

cracked butt
December 4, 2008, 07:52 AM
My experience with trying to buy a .308 rifle:

About 10 years ago, I wanted to upgrade from my 30-30 to a .308, I specifically wanted a Remington 700 BDL in .308 (ADLs at the time had a flimsy POS plastic stock and a Krylon-looking metal finish). I went to several gun shops and nobody had one- they all had them in 30-06, .270, and .300WM though. Several places had the .308s in heavy barreled varmint versions. I inquired at several shops (some were independent shops, some where big-box chain stores) if they could get me one in .308. Noone could even order one in for me. A few places told me that Remington made the BDLs in .308, but not every year, and we just happened to be in an off year. Other places that ordered from a website, said that Remington didn't even list the .308s on their website.

The 30-06s and 30-30s are rifles that seem to sell not because they offer any advantages over other chamberings but because everyone's Dad or Grandfather used them for hunting.
The biggest and oldest rifle manufacturers in the country: Remington, Ruger, Savage, Winchester, etc all cater to hunters first, and to serious target shooters as a small niche of their business if at all.

woof
December 4, 2008, 08:07 AM
Chuck Hawks did a study of page views on various cartridges as a measure of interest in them. .308 was #1, .30-06 was #3. Surprising to me .270 was #2. .243 was #10.

Shawnee
December 4, 2008, 08:40 AM
"What I want to know is - who cares if .30-06 is on the shelf in some gas station in Podunk?"


And what are the chances the ammo they carry is the same as the ammo that shoots best in your rifle??? Answer - Not Hardly at all.
So then what are the chances the ammo they have even shoots to the same point of aim as the ammo you sighted in with??? Answer - Not much.

If you add a dime to all that "it's sold everywhere" sillliness it still won't be worth 10 cents.:rolleyes:

"Chuck Hawks did a study of page views..."

Would be interesting to know what type of shooter most frequently consults the pages (eg., target, deer hunter, elk hunter, reloader, paramilitary, mall ninja ???).

:cool:

Dave/hoff
December 4, 2008, 09:07 AM
Shawnee and Woof-
hey guys, I care about what's on the shelf at the Podunk station...that's where I buy my ammunition.

why? because it's on the way to where I hunt, and since it's what I buy all the time, that's what I shoot all the time and that's what I've used to sight-in my rifle before heading to the field...and, if in my haste to get out the door, my box-a-year is inadvertently left behind, I don't sweat it, I just stop at Mom-'n'-Pop's gas station/liquor store/huntin' and fishin' supplies shop and pick up a box of the normal stuff - no worries.

So, just about any place I go, I find Remington Core-Lokt 165 grain (and if not 165, the 180 grain works just as good at "white-tail range").

I could give a rip about shooting pieces of paper at long range, I want meat.

Txhillbilly - you're right; your opinions match mine

gdonley308
December 4, 2008, 09:13 AM
+1 for the .308 due to the Hornady TAP line of ammo. Now if 30-06 had that option I'd say it was a toss up.

foghornl
December 4, 2008, 09:14 AM
My {wild-@zz un-scientific} guess is that since the .30-06 is on the shelf, the store probably got it a while back at a lower price than the current (whole-sale) price of the .308.

Let's say the situation is reversed...They have .308's on the shelf, but you want a .30-06, and it has to be ordered as a single 'one-of-a-kind'....I suspect you would see the same price differential.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 4, 2008, 09:15 AM
Take note. You see, fellas, there's a LOT (as in millions) of people like Dave/hoff in this country. Whether or not it matters to you in particular (that every mom and pop store has it in stock) doesn't make .30-06 less appealing for that reason for these millions.

Lone_Gunman
December 4, 2008, 09:18 AM
+1 for the .308 due to the Hornady TAP line of ammo.

There is nothing special about Hornady TAP except the cool black colored case. Otherwise, its just A-Max or V-Max over whatever powder Hornady uses.

Shawnee
December 4, 2008, 09:25 AM
"Dave/hoff" is right. If a hunter uses whatever flavor 30/06 the local Podunk market has on the shelf, he's all set.
But that same fact applies to any caliber on the shelf at the Podunk Market, not just 30/06 - so the '06 is no more (or less) "available" than any other caliber the store carries. There are a lot of little places that carry the '06, but there aren't many that carry ONLY the '06.

:cool:

woof
December 4, 2008, 09:51 AM
My head is still swimming. Are we saying we believe there are actually people out there who will buy a rifle because they think ammo for it might be available at the Podunk Gas 'n Go but the "other" might not be? A-and that's important because Podunk is on the way to where this mythical buyer hunts and he is worried he might leave home with all his hunting gear but forget his ammo? Really? I thought this line of (dare I call it 'reasoning?) got started because it was argued that surely the 06 is the most popular BECAUSE it is available at the gas station, that proving the point?

High Planes Drifter
December 4, 2008, 09:51 AM
In the time I've spent here, along with some usefull information, I have also learned that most gunboard threads are like lead figures.

No matter what form they start out as, they all melt down the same.




Jesus tap-dancing Christ, people.

Dave/hoff
December 4, 2008, 10:04 AM
But that same fact applies to any caliber on the shelf at the Podunk Market, not just 30/06 - so the '06 is no more (or less) "available" than any other caliber the store carries. There are a lot of little places that carry the '06, but there aren't many that carry ONLY the '06.

A good point, sir, but not precisely the point I had in mind.

It could be that I suffer from a skewed perspective. As a lad (back 25-35 years ago), I traveled the Missouri and Arkansas backroads quite a bit more than I do now-a-days, but in THOSE days, the Mom-and-Pop shops were in far greater abundance and those stores couldn't afford to stock a wide variety of ammunition, hence the limiting factor of "what does the local population buy?"

Probably cartridges to fit Grandpa's '03 A3, Uncle Jake's .30-30, or Daddy's 12 gauge scattergun.

Now most of the roadside stores have some affiliation with a larger chain outfit or a wholesale network that likely allows the stocking of a greater variety of products (if a good part of their trade happens to be "sporting goods"). So, entirely plausible that .308 ammo (and .270, and .300 WinMag, etc.) is available.

But, back in the day, it was the previously mentioned, common stock ammo that was available. As a 20-something-wood-hippie-try to live-off-the-lander, I owned (and still own) the firearms I knew I could get ammo for nearly everywhere I cared to go.

So, in answer to the OP, I'd have bought the '06 for 250 bucks and let it go at that.

Ridgerunner665
December 4, 2008, 10:05 AM
I can answer the question as to why so many people buy the 30-06 instead of the 308....

I've known the answer for years...I just enjoy seeing people debate it and the reasons they give.

It may not be the ONLY reason...but it is the most common reason.


The reason is "68 miles per hour"...some of you will know what that refers to, others will not.

But I assure you...that IS the reason.

W.E.G.
December 4, 2008, 10:08 AM
A man don't need much else but a 30-06 and a box of shells. :cool:

Dave/hoff
December 4, 2008, 10:26 AM
Naw, Woof. Believe what ya want, man. I'm just saying that the reasons that I bought the '06 was for the reasons in my posts.

They may seem silly to you, but they are perfectly logical to me. If you are not old enough to have been shooting or hunting when I started, I cannot fault your lack of experience, but if you have been participating in these activities for longer than you've been a poster to this web site, why would you feel it necessary to denegrate my opinions? This is supposed to be "The High Road" after all.

The OP wondered why a .308 rifle would cost more than a .30-'06 rifle at a big box store. I think he got the correct answer in posts 2, 3, and 4.

jerry46
December 4, 2008, 10:31 AM
First of all, as far as speed and energy, a .308 will do anything at 250 yards that a 30-06 will do at 300 yards. And thats not to say that you should not shoot over 250 yards. However, I have shot a lot of deer over the years and none of them were over 250 yards. Last week, I was hunting with four other hunters in West Virginia. Out of the five, three were using .308s and there was not one 30-06.

I keep hearing about buying ammo in any little mom and pop store. I have never gone on a hunting trip and forgot ammo. One person here said they buy there ammo at little stores on the way. Why in the world would you do that? You shoot your gun in with a specific ammo and take enough with you. If you use all your ammo and have still not got a deer, maybe hunting is not for you.

If there are more 30-06s than .308s out there, do you think it could be because the 30-06 has been around for over 100 years and the .308 for just over 50 years? My last purchase was a .308 and probably my next purchase will be a .308. You can kill anything in the lower 48 with one. And you are doing it with a short action gun. If there is a better deer caliber out there, I don't know what it is.

hiker44
December 4, 2008, 10:35 AM
For those of us who live in rural areas, I think the reason some retailers stock the 30-06 and not the .308 is a mindset that goes back a couple of generations. There is -06 ammunition available over the counter in almost every store out here, where I hardly ever see the .308 on the shelf. Not that there is any reason for that, except that the 30-06 was a proven round for the WWII generation and it just has become the 'normal' round to shoot out here. Myself, I prefer the .308, because it is slightly more versatile when it comes to reloading. I said 'slightly'. I get my .308 online, because the increased price for special order also applies out here, regardless of how good a friend you are with the store owner. Maybe things will begin to change in a generation or two.

woof
December 4, 2008, 10:41 AM
Dave/hoff, I don't think I denigrated your opinions at all although I may have disagreed. I'm 58, grew up in Appalachia and I don't remember ammo for almost anything being unavailable in any of the gun or sporting stores around. My point is, I don't think it was necessary for anyone to buy ammo at a gas station even back then and certainly not now.

Let me ask this - who on this thread will buy your next ammo at a gas station on the way to where you will be hunting? Who will buy your next rifle because the ammo is sold there? I guess I do think it's silly but then I thought the idea of Obama winning was silly and look how that turned out.

homers
December 4, 2008, 10:54 AM
This thread is begging the question...(because many are stating the 30-06 is more popular by joe public, the uninformed, and the better informed hunter/shooter should go with the 308)

So, Which is better 30-06 or 308 and why?

sectional_density
December 4, 2008, 11:00 AM
When the zombies invade and you head to the hills, you can stop by the Mom -n- Pop store and buy up the rest of the 30-06 ammo....and better hope they've got a lot.

Art Eatman
December 4, 2008, 11:24 AM
To get back to nachosgrande's opening post...

The price difference probably has to do with a special order of a single item, vs. some past bulk purchase. Just my guess.

If you don't handload, there's not a nickel's worth of difference between a .308 and a .30-'06 for 150- and 165-grain bullets. Those will do for any deer in North America. The '06 does better with 180- or 200-grain bullets just because of more room inside the case; the longer bullets protrude deeper into the .308's case.

As a handloader, I pay little attention to the specs for factory-cartridge pressures, so I may be out of date: The factory loads for the '06 used to be loaded to around 50,000 psi. When the .308 first came out, it was loaded to 55,000 psi. (This was before they went to the CUP pressure measurement.) That's why the equality in muzzle velocity in the common barrel lengths.

FWIW: The '06 is slightly overbore, and thus performs better with a 26" barrel. I can load to around 55,000 psi and beat a .308 by around 250 to 300 ft/sec. But, Bambi will rarely know the difference. I wouldn't bother except that I hunt in wide-open desert country, and really long shots are a distinct possibility.

USSR
December 4, 2008, 12:14 PM
If you don't handload, there's not a nickel's worth of difference between a .308 and a .30-'06 for 150- and 165-grain bullets.

+1, and I have and load for both cartridges. Now, if you want to roll your own with the big bullets (190+ grains), there is a major difference in the performance of the two cartridges. Oh, and accuracy is a product of the individual rifle and load; not the headstamp on the cartridge. My .30-06 match load uses a 100% fill ratio to drive 190SMK's at 2900fps.

Don

stiab
December 4, 2008, 02:23 PM
Or compare the prices of Win. model 70s in 30/06 to the prices of the same rifle in . 243 or .264 or .270 - you'll see the 30/06s are not only much more commonly for sale, but are comparative giveaways.

I partially agree, but that has to do with how scare the older .243's are. In the 70's and 80's the .243 was less popular than it is today, hence fewer made, hence higher prices for those guns today. Same reason that a Win M88 in .284 sells today for a few $hundred more than one in .308. That does not mean that today the .308 is less popular than the .284.

And, it is obvious that some poster's opinion are based soley on their favorite carthridge, without consideration to other important factors.

I live less than a mile from a country store, and there is not another store of any kind within 12 miles. You can buy a country ham there, along with homemade candy, and Remington ammo. I'll check next time I'm there to see which calibers they have. I have not bought any there because I do not need any right now.

madcratebuilder
December 4, 2008, 03:23 PM
My head is still swimming. Are we saying we believe there are actually people out there who will buy a rifle because they think ammo for it might be available at the Podunk Gas 'n Go but the "other" might not be? A-and that's important because Podunk is on the way to where this mythical buyer hunts and he is worried he might leave home with all his hunting gear but forget his ammo? Really? I thought this line of (dare I call it 'reasoning?) got started because it was argued that surely the 06 is the most popular BECAUSE it is available at the gas station, that proving the point?

That's funny! You know, I think these bolt gun guys just like to argue.

Vern Humphrey
December 4, 2008, 04:00 PM
I am convinced that IF 30/06 rifles and ammo are really the top sellers - it most definitely is not because it is truly the most popular.

By definition, "Best seller" = "Most popular."

Shawnee
December 4, 2008, 04:01 PM
"I think these bolt gun guys just like to argue."


That possibility has occurred to me to !

:scrutiny:

Oldcoyote
December 4, 2008, 04:35 PM
I have one of each but I prefer the .30/06 because it was used in WW I, WW II and Korea :D

jackdanson
December 4, 2008, 04:52 PM
I have one of each but I prefer the .30/06 because it was used in WW I, WW II and Korea


I have one of each but I prefer the .308 because it was used in vietnam and the sandbox wars. :neener:

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 4, 2008, 05:08 PM
There is -06 ammunition available over the counter in almost every store out here, where I hardly ever see the .308 on the shelf.

That is my experience as well. It IS true that the .30-06 is far more available, no matter how much the denyers try to deny this undeniable FACT. Maybe not in all areas of the country, but in some or most areas. Whether this is material to anything is another story.

jpwilly
December 4, 2008, 05:24 PM
:uhoh: OP said he made his decision...what are we all standing around here for? We swayed him back to the dark side (chanting: Ought Six, Ought Six, Ought Six)!

stiab
December 4, 2008, 06:29 PM
So I checked out the small ammo shelf at Kittrell Grocery up the road. Some 38 Special, lots of .22LR, one box of 30-30, one box of .280 (I was surprised), no .308 and no .30-06. I asked about both and they don't carry the .308, sold out of .30-06, more expected in a few days. Of course, this proves nothing, just like our individual opinions! :)

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 4, 2008, 06:37 PM
sold out of .30-06, more expected in a few days

Actually, it proves that they carry .30-06 but they don't carry .308, just like I and many other said, and just like hundreds and hundreds of places across the country. Not to mention that being sold out shows it's very very popular.

stiab
December 4, 2008, 06:59 PM
Actually, it proves that they carry .30-06 but they don't carry .308, just like I and many other said

(Chuckle!!) Of course it proves that for this grocery store, which should be obvious to anybody who read the words I wrote. But what it does not prove is that any one poster's personal opinion is more 'factual' about which caliber is the most popular. My opinion is .30-06, but just like yours, opinions are biased and offer no proof!!

aimbotter
December 5, 2008, 12:52 AM
30-06 is more popular than 308 for sure.. the last many many hunters i've talked to all said they hunt with a gun that chambers 30-06..

cland
December 5, 2008, 01:43 PM
Time to enter the which is best, Ford or Chevrolet controversy. From the military viewpoint the .308 was developed for several reasons by the US Armed Forces. They are shorter rounds, you can carry more, and they are almost equivalent to the 30-06 in most instances.

I have three '06s, a Winchester Model 1895, an 03A3, and a P17 sometimes called an Enfield. The Ammo is readily available, you hit it, it goes down for the count, ditto .308, wheres the beef?

Gunsafe
December 5, 2008, 04:33 PM
I just thought I would add my 2 cents. I stopped by the local Alco on the way to hunt yesterday afternoon and checked out their small ammo collection for sale. Of the rifle cartridges they sold, they had 2 boxes of .270 left, 3 boxes of .243, 0 boxes of .30-06 and 0 boxes of 7 mag (both sold out). There was NO spot on the shelve for .308.

Rifle season started Wed here in KS.

But that's just another 2 cents.

woof
December 5, 2008, 04:55 PM
We should all sell our .308s now. Before long the only way to get ammo will be to deal with unsavory characters to get brass then reload it yourself :)

I don't recall anyone in the thread ever saying that .308 was more popular. All I recall is that the ability to buy ammo at some gas station instead of driving to a real store or using the mail to get the small number of rounds used in a YEAR is not a very good basis for picking a caliber. The whole notion of availability as a criterion is suspect since if any of them become truly unavailable they will all be unavailable. The concern about availability should logically lead to stockpiling not picking the gas station queen of cartridges.

stiab
December 5, 2008, 05:20 PM
I don't recall anyone in the thread ever saying that .308 was more popular.

Oops!! Then you must have gotten to page 3 without reading pages 1 and 2. Or missed 24kshooter, woof, shawnee, et al...:)

This thread is worthless, but lots of fun!!

woof
December 5, 2008, 05:58 PM
Nope. I don't see popular. In fact popular isn't even defined. By the way I checked my little country store and they have .303 British. I had no idea it had become so "popular."

stiab
December 5, 2008, 06:14 PM
There might be more rifles out there in 06 but I would bet more are sold in 08 each year. I would also be that more 08 ammo is sold.
My fault woof, I though this was your direct reply to the more popular question, .30-06 -vs- .308.

moooose102
December 5, 2008, 06:20 PM
I would also be that more 08 ammo is sold.
IF you are including the military,you MIGHT be right. but, if you are talking about ONLY civilian ammunition purchases, no way, not even close.

woof
December 5, 2008, 09:36 PM
If more .308 ammo is sold does that make it more popular? Like I said, popular was never defined. Does it mean more rifles in existence? More rifles sold new last year? Global or just US? Amount of ammo sold? Military or civilian? I think there are more .30-06 rifles in existence but I also believe that .308 shooters do a lot more shooting. Your .30-06 deer hunter who buys ammo at the gas station makes one box last 3 or 4 years. Meanwhile the .308 target and tactical shooters (worldwide) not to mention military, don't seem concerned that they can't get ammo at the Podunk Gas 'n Go.

elmerfudd
December 5, 2008, 09:39 PM
IF you are including the military,you MIGHT be right. but, if you are talking about ONLY civilian ammunition purchases, no way, not even close.

I think you'd be wrong. While there are certainly more 30-06 rifles out there than .308's, the folks with .308's tend to do a lot more shooting. That's just the nature of rifles like the M1A, FAL, CETME, AR10, etc... Look at all the battlepacks and cases of surplus that are sold as well as the cheap plinking ammo.

Yeah, when it comes to commercial hunting loads, the 30-06 is probably #1, but I'd bet that's less than 10% of the .308 ammo market.

kb2zya
December 5, 2008, 10:08 PM
Well not to bust up a thread but,i got a walmart atr-100 30-06 for $249.I was thinking the 308 for $50 more.the 308 had a wood stock and the 06 had a synthetic one.i think thats all the difference.:neener:

elmerfudd
December 5, 2008, 10:18 PM
You would have done alright either way. I prefer the .308, but plenty of other smart shooters like the 30-06 and performance wise there's not a whole lot of difference between them.

d2wing
December 5, 2008, 10:56 PM
Like I said in one of the first posts, neither is wrong. I would have chosen the 06 because, it's cheaper for the same gun and the ammo is more available. If you have ever run out, brought the wrong ammo, or forgot your ammo, and need to buy some in podunk that is important. It's happened to me. Also I tend to to agree with the 68 mph post. Why buy a 340 v8 if you can buy a 350. The .308 is more popular in target rifles because it has been issued as a tactical and sniper round since the 60's, more for logistical reasons than anything else. The difference of cost and weight of brass and powder in 5 rounds isn't much, But the difference of a truck load or shipload adds up. I personal don't believe there is any inherent difference in accuracy, but there has been more development of the 308. The 30-06 is clearly more powerful. If you prefer the 308 fine. It;s what the AMU and snipers use. To say the 308 is better for hunting is just nonsense. The rifle makes more difference than the round in this case.

Oldcoyote
December 6, 2008, 02:14 PM
I prefer the .30/06 because the cartridges are longer and more pleasing to the eye.

homers
December 6, 2008, 04:05 PM
Size matters
I prefer the .30/06 because the cartridges are longer and more pleasing to the eye.

I read somewhere that most guys think the 30-06 length is about 7", whereas most female shooters believe it to be about 4.5".

d2wing
December 6, 2008, 04:29 PM
LOL, good posts:)

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 6, 2008, 07:35 PM
Size matters
I prefer the .30/06 because the cartridges are longer and more pleasing to the eye.
I read somewhere that most guys think the 30-06 length is about 7", whereas most female shooters believe it to be about 4.5".

Now that's funny right there - I don't care who you are!! :D :D

Oldcoyote
December 7, 2008, 12:08 PM
I read somewhere that most guys think the 30-06 length is about 7", whereas most female shooters believe it to be about 4.5".


:D:D:D:D

Art Eatman
December 7, 2008, 03:01 PM
From the redickledockle to the sublimated...

:D:D:D

(Or, for the grammar nazis, "From the ridiculous to the sublime...")

If you enjoyed reading about ".308 more than 30-06?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!