[MLC]

Saw this over at HKPro, thought ya'll might be interested:
http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/MDM/XM8.jpg

It was at the Marine Corps expo, the fellow who took the pictures reported that this rifle may very well be the next US longarm, according to the talk around the expo.
I personally think that the front carry handle swoosh would be complemented nicely by a tail fin from a 59 Caddy on the stock.
The integrated optics, adjustable stock and modular nature all look nice though.

[Nightcrawler]

Barrel's much too short to be the standard service weapon. Read in an Army Times article that the 82nd Airborne carried some M14s in Iraq, preferring to have a few soldiers armed with the range and power of the M14. Note that they chose a 7.62mm weapon over the 20" M16 for the purpose of designated marksmans weapon.

The XM8s answer to the designated marksmans rifle? An 18" barreled 5.56mm carbine. :rolleyes:

[Andrew Wyatt]

if they made it a G36 with exchangeable magazine wells and uppers, with the slideystock, then they could have one rifle that can be converted to .308, .223, 9mm, 45, 458 socom, and 7.62x39.

[Marko Kloos]

That's a H&K G36K in new packaging.

[LAMPROPELTIS]

:barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf:

[C.R.Sam]

Looks like a lot of fun to shoot from prone position in the mud, dirt or whetever.

Or even over a parapet. I don't like to stick my own head up that high.

Sam

[Benjamin]

is it even possible to mount a grenade launcher on such a rifle?

[Devonai]

Note that they chose a 7.62mm weapon over the 20" M16 for the purpose of designated marksmans weapon.

And if they adopt this piece of plastic fantastic, that choice is going to be repeated even more.

Of course, I don't find anything wrong with the M1 in the first place.

[Scyvthe]

They had me scared to death it was going to be a bull up design.

Wheewww...

[Nightcrawler]

You know, I'd rather have a bullpup with its lousy trigger than this thing with its 13" barrel. You know what kind of ballistics you get out of 5.56mm out of a barrel that short? A velocity-dependent cartridge like 5.56mm needs all the speed it can get.

[MLC]

Benjamin, It looks as though the foregrip removes to as well as having what looks like attachment point to the sides of the fore end(bolt holes).
It seems to have a barrel longer than 13" unless that flash hider is really long.
It looks like the smaller versions without the carry handle and scope are in the background, lying flat on the table.

[Nightcrawler]

Well, the OICW rifle part (also based on the G36) that this rifle appears near-identical in size to had a 10" barrel, so I'm being generous. If anybody has the exact number, please throw it out there. Regardless, you really want an 18-20" barrel to get the best performance out of 5.56mm ammo.

You know what's REALLY lame? I can't verify, but I seem to recall reading that they actually hired engineers from Porsche to design the LOOKS of this thing, in an obvious attempt to sell it to the pentagon brass. If that's true, all I can say is wow...your tax dollars at work.

If it IS based on the G36, it should be a reliable weapon, at least. The adjustable stock looks good, so long as it's STURDY (you never know if you might need to butt-stroke somebody...even if you don't, a flimsy stock is never good). The mounted optics should have some kind of iron-sight back up, in my opnion, even if it's crude, in case the scope is damaged, fogged, or clogged.

Of course, the barrel is too short, but these little carbines seem to be all the range in these days when we simply assume our troops will never engage anybody farther than 100 meters away. (Even at less than 100 meters, 5.56mm out of a 20" barrel is ALWAYS preferable to 5.56mm out of a 10-13" barrel...)

What they also need to do is ABANDON THE IDEA OF USING THIS LITTLE MOUSEGUN CARBINE AS A DESIGNATED MARKSMANS RIFLE. The DMR, by DEFINITION, has greater range and power than the issue assault rifles. So, the DMR needs to be 7.62x51mm, be able to use heavy-bullet match grade and armor piercing ammunition (as well as standard ball), have a good scope and (in my opinion) good irons, provision for a bipod and a shooting sling, and be very rugged. Barrel length? 20-22". Semiauto only.

[MLC]

From the same expo, this is HK's most current production grenade launcher.
It would be the most obvious choice to accompany the XM8.

http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/MDM/AG36.jpg

I believe that some of these were fielded in Afghanistan by US troops and obviously used by German troops there. I know that US SF(seals?) used independent HK grenade launchers(HK 69) or at least were photographed holding them.

I certainly can't argue with the DMR concept.

[Tamara]

Well, at least it fixes one of the bigger flaws of the G36: to wit, the goofy, flimsy, plastic skeleton stock. Apparently HK has decided that in future wars, nobody will ever need to butt-stroke somebody or use their rifle to climb an obstacle or any of the other thousand-and-one abuses that were the norm for service rifles. :scrutiny:

[c_yeager]

Whats up with all the high mounted optics on all the new military rifle ideas? I dont think i could get much of a cheek weld on that thing at all. The lack of any kind of iron sights mystifies me as well. Call me old fashioned but, im not real keen on relying on a rifle that is useless without batteries.

[Soap]

I think it would be a fine rifle except for two details:

1- Optics are too high. Even though it will make it harder to get to the op handle, make the optics lower.

2- How do you hang do-dads on it or change sighting systems? Flashlights and IR designators can be pretty important.

[MLC]

In looking at the other pictures this gentleman posted I noticed something in the background:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=497860


If you notice it has a modular forend like the G36, so one can hang doodads to their hearts delight.

[MLC]

and again?

[Glock Glockler]

Mr. Flory,

Forgive me, but what part of the crack pipe are you smoking?

- If that rifle had only one flaw, hypothetically speaking of course, it would be the lack of iron sights. Optics can fail, Iron sights won't. What do you do when the optics fog up or are otherwise rendered useless?

- The rifle looks flimsy, I wouldn't want to have to beat someone to death with that and expect it to fire. Give me a nice stout weapon for beating people to death.

- The short barrel is also an abomination. If you want a compact gun, investigate bull-pups, don't castrate the round by shortening the barrel.

- The pronged flash suppressor is also stupid. Have we learned nothing from Vietnam? There was a reason why we went to a caged flash suppressor, the pronged ones lend themselves far too easily to getting caught on branches and bushes.

[Tamara]

- The short barrel is also an abomination. If you want a compact gun, investigate bull-pups, don't castrate the round by shortening the barrel.

...for that will allow you to provide an abysmal trigger pull and awkward mag changes in a platform 33% smaller than a conventional rifle. :D

[Nightcrawler]

Somewhere along the line we've been convinced that a 40" overall length rifle with a 20" barrel is some kind of long, unweildy 2x4 that's completely ineffective at close ranges, or something.

This weapon is neat, but it is NOT a rifle. It is a carbine, and judging by the barrel length, almost qualifies as a rifle-round-firing submachine gun. With a decidedly short ranged weapon like this becoming the norm, it becomes all the more important (in my opinion) that our troops get decent designated markmans rifles fielded to the squads to supplement these carbines and their machine guns.

That M14-DMR that they had in Afghanistan was nice, but way overcomplex for what I'm thinking. The Russians had the right idea with the Dragunov; not super match-grade accurate, but reliable, easy to hit with, and accurate enough to smack somebody at 600 meters. I would augment the idea with better iron sights (M14, M1 style sights), a folding bipod, and a barrel shortened to 20-22" (which should be enough to get the most out of 7.62x51mm ammo). And, of course, standard 20 round magazines.

I also have to agree with Tamara on the point of ruggedness. It seems today that weapons designers often think that modern wars are somehow less barbaric than wars of old, and that you'll never have to buttstroke someone or smash their face with your buttplate. Sometimes, especially in close-quarters scenarios, like pushing through elephant grass or clearing a house, the badguys can get the jump on you. They can be right there, trying to grab your weapon away, and you might not be able to pull away and fire. Times like that it's hard to beat a bayonet or a buttstroke, if only to get them to back off long enough to where you can plug 'em.

And that not withstanding, as Tamara said, there's a million other abuses that service rifles must withstand. Some will say that "soldiers need to be trained to treat their weapons better" or something, but I say that if a modern rifle, made with all of our technology, isn't as rugged as an M1, M14, or even an M16, then we're taking a huge leap backwards. You can buttstroke somebody with an M16A2; that fixed sling swivel will make a nice meat-hook. And bayonets are handy for herding crowds, clearing rooms, or any other situation where badguys are potentially less than an arm's length away.

War ain't pretty, folks. Most of the time it's blowing up the badguys from a ways away with artillery, or mowing them down with machine gun fire. But sometimes it's smashing their faces in with your helmet, or cutting their throats with your knife...

This carbine looks like it has good ergonomics (including having and oversized grip and controls to allow shooting with heavy gloves), but it also needs to be able to survive being dropped off of the top of a Bradley.

[Glock Glockler]

Tamara,

Have you ever shot the M17 bullpup? Granted, the ejection port needs work, I'm partial to a bottom ejecting rifle, but it's a compact girl and the barrel length is actually longer than that of a standard A2. The trigger was ok, not nearly that of a pimped out national match AR, but certainly on par with that of most service rifles.

The difference is that we're not sacrificing velocity and we still have a gun compact enough for CQB. I don't like the idea of GI's using AKs for house clearing because it is more compact than the M16.

They are trade offs, yes, but I think they're acceptable ones.

Where's Correia anyway, he should be all over this thread?

[BusMaster007]

That 'Pig Hoof' grip has GOT to go.:D

[Badger Arms]

Folks, this is a conceptual mockup. Get it? It's a chunk of carved plastic, not on operable rifle.Well, at least it fixes one of the bigger flaws of the G36: to wit, the goofy, flimsy, plastic skeleton stock.... and replaced it with a flimsy collapsable stock. The folding skeleton stock on the G36 was very strong. Still wouldn't want to butt-stroke anybody with it though. The G36 stock is much stronger than the plastic one on the M-4 carbine.

[Andrew Wyatt]

but not the aluminum one.

[Tamara]

Have you ever shot the M17 bullpup? Granted, the ejection port needs work, I'm partial to a bottom ejecting rifle, but it's a compact girl and the barrel length is actually longer than that of a standard A2. The trigger was ok, not nearly that of a pimped out national match AR, but certainly on par with that of most service rifles.

Owned one; why do you ask? ;)

(IMHO, in addition to the aforementioned execrable trigger and awkward mag changes, the M17S adds the bonus features of being awkwardly balanced, and pig-heavy. :scrutiny: )

[Chris Rhines]

See some things I like, see some things I don't.

Everyone has already mentioned the absurdly high scope mount and the lack of iron sights. The charging handle is in the right place, but probably not reciprocating (and I don't see a seperate forward assist. No good.) That charging handle should stick out a bit on both sides (lose the folding part) and be rigidly connected to the bolt carrier.

The stock? Well, I'm of two minds. I like the adjustable length of pull, but I question how sturdy it is. If the stock latch is strong enough to take some abuse, and the recoil spring doesn't extend into the stock, I'll stifle any further objections. As for butt-stroking and enemy-beating, no rifle is strong enough to hold up to that kind of punishment for very long.

The barrel is way too short. Although I've lately come to prefer 16" barrels on .223 carbines - that way you know you've got a hundered-yard gun.

The pistol grip is way too long.

I think I see fully ambidextrous controls... dare I hope?

Also, non-M16 magazines!!! Hooray!!!

- Chris

[MLC]

Why would you need forward assist on a rifle that was engineered properly to begin with?
The G36 gas system and bolt design allow the action to remain remarkably clean for hundreds if not thousands of rounds.

From HKPRO:
The G36 is a reliable rifle, much more so than the M16 series. Though hard core M16 and AR-15 aficionados will have a difficult time accepting what they might describe derisively as 'Euro-Trash,' there is no denying the fact that the G36 rarely, if ever, jams. The most desirable departure from the M16 design is the fact that the gas used to operate the action is vented in the forearm, and not blown back into the action like the 'exhaust pipe' of the M16 gas tube. The G36 jams so rarely that HK has said that they have a G36K that has been fired more than 25,000 rounds without cleaning and no failures.

[Onslaught]

Hey guys, it's been a while since I've been on, so I don't know if you've brought this up yet or not...

H&K is building a Manufacturing plant in MY HOMETOWN right here in the U.S., right next to Ft. Benning, GA. The plant should be completed sometime next year, and the buzz in the papers was that it would be building the new HK rifle to replace the M16.

Now I don't know if they're mistaken, and it was just the lower half of the OICW, which of course won't be "replacing" the M16, but that's not the way it was worded.

Of course we'll just wait and see...

In the meantime, I've been getting my resume together, just in case they need a Client Server or Mainframe programmer :D

[Soap]

Glockler- Crack pipe? Pass. I did have a rough night last night though. :evil:

If they make it in true G36 fashion, it will have an option of iron sights. See a pic here:

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as14-e.htm

Also, just because the rifle looks flimsy that doesn't make it so. For example, the Nova looks relatively flimsy but I would rather beat that around than an 870. Since receiver and stock are one piece, this can give you surprising strength if executed properly.

Concerning the barrel length, 16" for a .223 is something that I can live with. As long as the user understands that it is very effective up to about 100 yards, you won't have a problem. Besides, the extra 4" MAY give you an additional 50 yards of fragmentation performance. It is a trade off that I would be willing to make.

As far the flash hider goes, yeah...it is lame. They need to just hang a good Vortex or Phantom on there and be done with it.

[clin4580]

I like the looks of a g36 better but know nothing about them.It looks like its too big to me, so does the grenade laucher.They need to be more compact I think.

[4v50 Gary]

Looks like it's designed for the movies, not for the battlefield. ;)

[Nightcrawler]

I agree, Gary. Take out the magazine and it looks like a Plasma Rifle. :cool:

[Kaylee]

What Gary said on the looks of the things.... I guess once one gets into polymer bodies though there's a little more leeway for aesthetics in small arms than in the days of mass produced steel-on-a-stick.


...The charging handle is in the right place, but probably not reciprocating (and I don't see a seperate forward assist. No good.) That charging handle should stick out a bit on both sides (lose the folding part) and be rigidly connected to the bolt carrier.

Ain't it the G36 innards? That should mean a reciprocating bolt handle thingie, and that little tab thing can be locked into position on either side to serve as an impromptu forward assist. Or "bang against the bench" action-opener "rear assist." Never got to try out that feature though, and I'll admit I'm a little wary of its durability.

I like the stock setup actually... looks like the first collapsable stock to come along that offers a halfway decent cheek weld. Also looks like it was ripped off from that Aliens pulse rifle gun. :)

-K

edit to add -- looks like an interesting mag release. If I'm seeing things right, it looks like the kluged a firing-finger release into the thing by adding a paddle extension -- push down and it unlocks? Looks awkward compared to the earlier HK push button/paddle combo thingies.. wonder why they dropped it? Granted it's ambi, which is nice, but I'd think a better solution would be an M16-style release that could be installed from either side.

[Chris Rhines]

Why would you need forward assist on a rifle that was engineered properly to begin with? Properly engineered a rifle may be, but add a little sand or dirt into the equation and all bets are off. If the rifle has a failure to feed malfunction (bolt hangs up on the magazine, or the cartridge hangs up on the feed ramp), you've got a malfunction that is a real pain to clear without a forward assist of some kind. I've had that kind of FTF with ARs, AKs, a FAL, and a Bushmaster M17. It's one of the most common malfs in magazine-fed weapons, and a fighting rifle needs to incorporate a way to fix it. Best way is a fixed charging handle.

Kaylee -

Cool! If the bolt handle is reciprocating, then all it needs is a small T-handle instead of the flimsy folding gizmo. Every moving part that can be eliminated, should be eliminated...

Also, I think you're right about the ambi mag release, but I can't tell if it's a push-down or a push-in (or something else entirely.) If'n it's a G36, then it probably uses the AK latch with the rock-in magazines, which are...okay.

- Chris

[Wanderer]

Wow, looks like a great contingency plan in case you need iron sights :rolleyes:

[Mike Irwin]

The muse has come upon me, and has endowed me with a new word by which to describe that particular firearm...

It's very "tactical," but at the same time, looks like crap...

Craptical shall henceforth be my missive of dismissal...

[Correia]

"Wheres Correia"

I'm here. :) Had a match this weekend, haven't been online.

Right off the bat I'm in agreement with Nightcrawler. .223 needs to go fast. It is a great cartridge, but if it isn't going fast, then what good is it?

Also agree with Sam, that scope is mounted way to high. Was it designed by a rifleman or a conceptual artist?

Disagree with Tamara. (that doesn't happen very often) :) Bullpup triggers can be very nice if designed correctly. Magazine change is not awkward if you are trained on it, and practiced. Somebody who is an expert with both will be faster with the mag well in front of the trigger guard, but not by as much as you would think.

I've been lucky to be able to get a little behind the scene look at the XM-8 project. HK isn't the only company going for the contract, some American manufacturers are submitting designs as well. Sorry not at liberty to say anything else. The testing is going to be stringent. The guns are going to be very very cool.

I for one am excited about all the new rifles we will be seeing because of this.

[Abominable No-Man]

Yook, never thought I'd be imagining the good ol' days of the M16.

H&K or not, I don't think it's such a hot idea for a couple of different reasons:

1) We just spent a bunch of money to convert over to the M4. IMO, this is an attempt to fix something that isn't broken, but then again no one asked me. Either way, the M16 system has been debugged to the point that there really isn't anything wrong with it- why replace it in the first place?

2) What are they honestly looking at doing? Replacing a 5.56mm short-barrelled assault-rifle with another 5.56mm short-barrelled assault rifle?
Realistically, what is the difference?

3) Aside from making you look a little cooler on CNN, what possible benefits does the G36 have versus the M16/M4? I've heard the talk about reliability and so forth, but guys I just came back from Iraq and before that I was in Afghanistan and I have seen the M16/M4 work very well under some very bad conditions.

Yeah, I'm an M14 aficionado, but that doesn't escape the fact that what we have works right now. In spite of the H&K moniker, what kind of bugs are going to be in this system when/if it comes into service? I don't think that dropping a new weapon into the hands of troops for proof-testing on the front lines (because, gang, this War on Terror is going to be around for a while....) is such a hot idea.

ANM

[Tamara]

I just came back from Iraq and before that I was in Afghanistan and I have seen the M16/M4 work very well under some very bad conditions.

Impossible! My brother's girlfriend's cousin's niece said she saw on CNN where every US troop in Trashcanistan immediately ditched their M-16 for an AK because one grain of sand will make the M-16 jam. They said so on the news!


;) :D

[Abominable No-Man]

:D
Well, if she saw it on CNN then it MUST be true.........:banghead: LOL

ANM

[Delmar]

Yeah-CNN. 99% fact free:banghead:

[meathammer]

A 5.56mm super-soaker. Neat.

[BrokenPaw]

As for butt-stroking and enemy-beating, no rifle is strong enough to hold up to that kind of punishment for very long. Not entirely so. You could use an M1 to beat a car to death, and it'd still probably work. It'd be a little uglier, but it'd work.

-BP

[RON in PA]

Don't you all realize that cute little rifle was designed by Versace and is offered in several stunning designer colors including hot pink, mauve and fucia!

[Kestrel]

If the rifle is changed, I wonder if it will be in 6.8mm?

[keederdag]

I vote we go bullpup, plenty of bbl length, a nice optical sight, take nato mags, have backup irons....Oh crap, wait a minut ....Why dont we just adopt the Brit Sa-80, since theyre dumpin it for Canuk made M-16's we otta be able to get them cheap!:D

[Futo Inu]

How does the M16 do at smashing heads with buttstock, BTW?

Re the Bushy M17 bullpup:

Trigger from the factory: Absolutely abysmally horrid.
Trigger after some work: Very nice, thanks (probably true of any bullpup).

You can't judge the M17s trigger by how it comes lawsuit-proofed from the factory. My only complaints on the M17 are a lot of gunsmoke in the face, and lack of reciprocating handle (yes, I like to have some kind of forward assist). I actually like the rear-heavy feel of it - comfortable to point and shoot. As far as overall weight compared to an AR or G36, it's not too bad is it? Dunno - I'll have to check on that... Mag change issues - true the bullpup has a slight disadvatage there, I suppose.

[Nightcrawler]

The M16A1 stock was kind of fragile, which is one of the reasons they replaced it with the A2. The A2 stock is pretty sturdy, if a bit overlong for some people. Again, the fixed sling swivel makes a nice meat hook. Aim that bad hog at the badguy's temple during a buttstroke and he's going to feel it.

(To be perfectly morbid.)

[Glock Glockler]

Futo,

Yes, mag changes won't be as smooth but you'd get more barrel length, which equals more effective range of engagement, and you'd get a more compact gun, which equals more tacticality during CQB. I think that's a good trade.

[Futo Inu]

GG - me too - that's why I have my M17 as my primary light rifle - it has 21.5 bbl length, with less OAL than a 16" AR (as you know). :)

[Schuey2002]

The more that I look at this.. this thing, the more I realize just how cool the G36 family of rifles look. The XM8, on the other hand, looks like it was just beamed down by Lt. Com. Geordi La Forge ( I can't believe that I actually know his name, :rolleyes: ) from the Star Ship Enterprise. :rolleyes: :uhoh:

[Tamara]

The more that I look at this.. this thing, the more I realize just how cool the G36 family of rifles look.

...and that is so gosh-darn important in a service rifle, too! ;)

(Where's El Tejon when you need him? :D )

[BDM]

If the military is smart and I know they love cost effective upgrades why not just make M16 uppers and lowers out of a composite polymer that is identical to the current design that way its lighter and the logistics system for parts can remain the same,personally I dont see the M16 going away any time soon with all the upgrades being tested for the M4,aka the new bolt and carrier assembly and eventually I think all full size rifles will be replaced by carbines except for designated marksmen,and with the way the direct gas system works a polymer receiver would be lighter stronger and easier to clean and more reliable in the desert because you wouldnt need to lube itand carbon wont stick to polymer or sand as long as no oil is used.

[Nightcrawler]

Did you just say you think the M16 is easier to clean and more reliable because of the direct gas system?

Never heard it put like THAT before... :uhoh:

And plastic or no plastic, the weapon will still need to be lubricated.

And if they make all new polymer M16 uppers and lowers...that's making all new rifles, essentially. Not going to be any cheaper than any other design, most likely.

[BDM]

It would be more reliable because the polymer is self lubricating witch would be excellent in the desert,The polymer would make the way the gas system works more reliable and easy to clean in relation to that and it wouldnt be more expensive because the only new parts would be the upper and lower and how they are made all other parts,bolt/carrier T handle barrel and telestock assemblies as well as pistol grip would be the same. so how can that be more expensive than a completely new system?
and I didnt say the direct gas system makes the M16 more reliable I said the polymer receiver would make the way it works more reliable because carbon does not stick to polymer so it wouldnt be a problem running it dry witch in the desert means no oil nothing for carbon or fine sand to stick to.

[Badger Arms]

It would be more reliable because the polymer is self lubricating witch would be excellent in the desertBut the AR-15 BOLT CARRIER ASSEMBLY needs to be lubed internally, not externally. I don't think that any lube is required for the G36 to function properly. It will also function indefinitely without cleaning. Try 10,000 rounds with the AR-15 that way.

[BDM]

I have heard the G36 has had some problems with parts breakage and until it experiences combat in all types of environments for prolonged periods of time only then will it be combat proven because no reliability test no matter how many rounds fired will simulate use under extreme combat conditions until it receives its baptism of fire only then will those test results validate the design.So under what conditions was this test conducted and what major prolonged combat operatios has this weap[on served under every day hard use in desert,arctic jungle wet,cold wet and mountain conditions and can you drag it through the ocean the way seals do with their weapons?and if so whats the proof that I can read about like after action reports or has the G36 not amassed any after action reports yet and the most rounds ive gone in an AR without cleaning was 4500 rounds over 4 days in 80 degree weather and 2 days it rained and it was out of a preban bushmaster carbine HBAR with H buffer 14.5 barrel and we only stopped because we ran out of vacation time and ammo.

[Schuey2002]

I have heard the G36 has had some problems with parts breakage
I haven't. I have only heard of the buttstock cracking due to either abuse or cracking because of cold weather.. :uhoh:
...and that is so gosh-darn important in a service rifle, too!
It is!! You don't want to be laughed off the battlefield. Besides, which would you rather own;

1) A rifle that is pure evil looking. An instrument to instill fear into the hearts of all who oppose it..

2) Or, something that looks like you picked out of the clearance bin at Toys-R-Us during an After-Christmas Sale??

LOL! :D :uhoh:

[Kaylee]

Or, something that looks like you picked out of the clearance bin at Toys-R-Us during an After-Christmas Sale??


True though it is.... weren't they once saying the same thing about The Mighty Mattel? :)

Seems to me *if* the thing is ever adopted, the guys using it will give it all the fearsome rep it'll ever need.

-K

[Daedalus]

You are all missing the most important flaw in this as a potential battle rifle. Where is the bayonet mount?

[BDM]

Bayonets have been obsolete sice the civil war and only have value for crowd control or psychological fear purposes that an edged weapon can cause.That is why the marines want a bayonet thats more usable as a fighting knife.If you have to fix your bayonet its probably time to save the last shot in your side arm for yourself.:D well see if the G36 lasts as long as the M16 thus far has lasted,almost 40 years,way ahead of its time the next advancement will be in materials used I say.

[Schuey2002]

Where is the bayonet mount?
The XM8 in that photo is only a mock-up. I'm sure that HK will get around to putting one on there.. in due time. ;)

Kaylee,

Party pooper!! :neener: :p :neener:

[Abominable No-Man]

If that's the lower part of the OICW, it's not supposed to have a bayonet mount anyway. I think the original rumor that the OICW was supposed to replace the M16/M4 entirely. Personally, I can see them coming into service, but as part of the platoon support weapons, not as an individual weapon. Kind of like there's M60 and M240 and SAW gunners. In that role, I could see it replacing the M203.

ANM

[BDM]

To shuey2002 on AR 15.com AR discussions there is a person having a problem with his G36 and these are the parts that are failing.His rifle is eating up piston rods from the trunion heating up wich caused mis alignment of the gas system breaking the rod when he went to change the barrel the barrel nut was covered by melted plastic wich he had to dremel to expose the nut to remove the barrel.It was also stated this happened when using the beta c-mag,Thank god the M16 works with any mil-spec mag and no matter how hot it gets aluminum alloy wont melt over the barrel nut,No wonder H&K cant get the SA80s to work right.Hopefully we will never adopt any weapon likened to the G36 until they can clear up this problem.Some might say just dont use the C-MAG but a combat rifle should work with feeding devices designed to be used in it.:rolleyes:To BADGER ARMS tyr 10,000 rounds with the C-MAG out of the G36 and you will have a broken piston rod melted hunk of plastic crap,Like I said lets see how it performs when its actually used in a hard environment in hard combat until then its still a pipe dream.Lets see if its still around in 40 years.

[Nightcrawler]

BDM, in my experience with the M16A1 and A2, they have to be kept both fairly clean and fairly lubed to keep running when you're out in the field. The M16 is somewhat less forgiving of being dirty than, for example, the FAL, or especially the Kalashnikov. This is not to say it's a poor weapon system (though I personally dislike it greatly), but it's not really the super-rugged, ultra-reliable, unstoppable shooting machine you seem to make it out to be.

And, since you asked, I've heard stories from the Canadians that they managed to melt some of their Thermold magazines (thus earning the mags the monicker "Thermelts" in their M16-family rifles, so it CAN happen and is only one reason why plastic magazines are not so hot.

You say a combat rifle should would with any magazine designed to be used in it, though you specified "mil-spec" magazines only earlier in your post. Remember, even a USA magazine that jams every other round is designed to "work" in the AR-15 rifle. You can't blame the rifle over a bad magazine.

Personally, I find even military-issue M16 magazines to be fairly flimsy. On the plus side, they're light, but a little more weight wouldn't be a bad tradeoff if the magazine were more rugged. Note that H&K has just released such a magazine, and the armed forces have begun to adopt it.

All I'll say is that after forty years of tinkering, dickering, and modifying, the M16 line had better work.

[Schuey2002]

I'm going to reserve the right to hear the full story on this "melting G36C" from the horses mouth. That horse, btw, is none other than LarryG36. If you have ever read any of his threads on HKPro.com or Hk54.com, then you'd get an idea of just how brutal he is on his guns. He has been known to put thousands and thousands of rounds thru them in an extremely short period of time (as in minutes, not hours). IOW, he's nuts! :D

As soon as he replies to this issue (as well as a response by H&K Sterling), then I'll make a further comment. ;)

[BDM]

I have experience to with the 16 A2 and if its kept clean it will work but if you read my thread it wasnt the mag that melted in the G36 it was part of the receiver over the barrel nut because it couldnt be removed yes the 16 needs to be clean especialy in the desert but Im sure as you know its simple to clean and you can learn to keep it meticulously clean by using a muzzle cap and keeping the dust cover closed I always made sure my weapon was taken care of before I slept or ate and no matter how many rounds you run through it as long as you clean it afterward it will always work and there were times when it went a couple of days without being taken down and a quick field strip,wiping the carrier down and the inside of the upper and relubing always kept mine going,No fire arm is unstoppable not even the AK.Canadien thermolds are made from a lower grade polymer thats why they melt.I use the brit steel mags now and they are great wish M16 mags were this rugged way back when so it was part of the G36 that melted not the C-MAG and I agree the issue GI mags are flimsy and in my experience with a minimum of maintenence the M16A2 was ultra reliable for me although I never used it in war or the desert except a couple of times on training manuevers I was in the gaurd not the regular army we had A1s also but got A2s when we went away the 2 weeks a year 16 years ago and how much lube you use depends on the environment you operate in so with good skills its a very reliable but maintenence intensive rifle depending on where you operate.:D

[Badger Arms]

I can melt the handguards on the AR-15 even with heat shields if I put a couple of C-mags through it full-auto. I don't see the point of a third-hand report that might or might not be true of a person who abused his firearm. Getting Aluminum that hot will likely ruin it also. Either way, the gun is ruined. Moot point.

[gun-fucious]

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=505505
oh, the joys of moderne plastics!

[Abominable No-Man]

Yick.

ANM:barf: :what:

[AJ Dual]

Only one thing came to mind:

I quote Wesley Snipes in "Demolition Man"

"So if this is the future, where's all the phaser-guns?" :D Schuey2002 is also right on about it looking like late 80's Star Trek Next Generation hardware...

The teloscoping stock seems like a waste of time, and space. The g36 has no buffer tube like an AR/M-16 or a recol spring like a non-Para FAL. A beefed-up or metal G36 stock would be better IMO.

I suspect the designers of this mock-up decided that an inside sleeved teloscoping stock was "different", and did it on that basis alone.

[buzz_knox]

The teloscoping stock seems like a waste of time, and space

Actually, these stocks are preferable to folding ones. If you have a mutli-position stock, you can adjust it to different body sizes, and can get a good fit wearing body armor or not. Further, you can always mount a telescoping stock even in the closed position, which you can't do with a folding stock.

[Futo Inu]

gun-fucious - lmbo.

BDM: Whew! I'm tired now. Punctuation, my friend. Punctuation. And spaces, lines, diction, and subject-verb agreement, if possible. :)

[Kaylee]

gun-fucious -- YES!! :D
oh that's cool... now I know I want one. :)


-K

PS -- no little daisies painted on the side? :(

[Marko Kloos]

Maybe that's the way to get autochucking military rifles established as "normal" in the eyes of the public. Repackage a G36 in pink plastic, throw a "Hello Kitty" sticker on there, and watch the gun banners look like total idiots when they try to convice Suzy Soccermom that those things are evil.

[hoppinglark]

whoa good idea! maybe a Dexter's Lab version for the boys....
and "PowerPuff Girls" sets for those with many daughters.....
I really like the idea.....

[MLC]

Courtesy of the same thread at HKPRO:

http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/xm8-1.jpg
http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/xm8-2.jpg

[VG]

Barrel's much too short to be the standard service weapon. Read in an Army Times article that the 82nd Airborne carried some M14s in Iraq, preferring to have a few soldiers armed with the range and power of the M14.

That's the rumor. Here's a post from the Infantry Forum, Fort Benning:

I disscussed this with the 101st Abn's division master gunner. Prior to OIF, he was at Ft Benning and expressed his concern about how he was going tackle the training challenge associated with bringing in M14s. (In other words, "we may be getting M14s; now what!?"

During my visit to Mosul I asked him for feedback on how the M14 fielding went. It didn't. It never happened. My team mates visited with the 82nd Abn's 2d Bde (i.e. the 325th). They had no M14s.

We have no feedback from Afghanistan on how the M14 did, but we have seen the pictures.

DCD is very interested in any unit's experience with using the M14 in today's operations. Especially: how it was integrated into the squad/platoon, how did it effect the soldier's load, did it assist in UO (formerly known as MOUT) or was it swapped out and when/how? We know how the M14 performed on the rifle range and in Vietnam, but not how it would perform in today's Army of One.

CPT LaFontaine
Small Arms Division
DCD, USAIC

[Marko Kloos]

Tell you what, the HK marketing department sure knows how to throw together a brochure. On paper, it looks like the best thing since sliced bread. "The M8 carbine will achieve world peace by making our soldiers invincible, bullet-proof, and ten feet tall. Our enemies will kill themselves in terror, and their women and children will look upon us as gods*. (*with optional Divinity Module.)"

The M8 design is very obviously a product-improved G36. The modularity is a good feature, but I am not sold on the optics-only approach after hearing of the G36 rainy day problems with foggy sights in German service. Not every future war will be fought in the Middle Eastern deserts.

[Nightcrawler]

Oh, and an automatic rifle without a quick change barrel lends itself to problems. I had thought that we already learned that lesson, but apparently HK wants to pawn off their stupid MG36 on us, too. I shudder to imagine this thing being used to replace the SAW.

And how much you wanna bet they make the bipod out of plastic?

And it's neat how the "compact carbine" lacks both a stock and any mechanism for aiming, apparently. What kind of ballistics do you get with 5.56mm out of a 9" barrel?

I ain't gonna quit harping on what a lousy designated marksman's rifle this will make, either. Apparently in the 21st century, a regular rifle with a 20" barrel is now for "sharpshooters" only.

[Hemicuda]

What an UGLY gun... and ergonomics might be okay, if you are built like a gorilla... but otherwise...

[Kaylee]

Oh, and an automatic rifle without a quick change barrel lends itself to problems. I had thought that we already learned that lesson...

You're referring to the "heavy barreled" variant on the bottom, right?
The text does refer to the ability to switch calibers, which implies the ability to change barrels in the field, which further implies that some kind of quick-change ability could be kluged up. Wonder how it'd work...

Two things bugged me on actually *reading* all that type though..
1 -- the operation of the red dot is a wireless control mounted "anywhere on the weapon the solider desires" or somesuch.

Why do I suddenly get images of lost "car door openers?" :scrutiny:
that's presuming they solved the security concerns by having a unique code for every rifle... sure would suck to have a radio bomb turn off the whole team's optics.

2 -- the optic is factory zeroed.. nice enough in itself I guess... but is the zero user-changeable?

niether are insurmountable problems I guess... but I'd like a little more info there...

-K


PS.. all that said, I'll admit the thing is growing on me. :)

[gun-fucious]

whats the carry handle for?