458 SOCOM in Marlin 336/1895?


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Wanta B
December 4, 2008, 04:24 PM
Related to another thread I just posted.

458 SOCOM base diameter being the same as 308 Win. what are the possibilities of rechanbering a Marlin 336 to use the 458 SOCOM? I know that the Marlins are rechambered to 308 Win. from 35 Rem. rifles so I was thinking...Perhaps.

No lose to semiauto function,may be a real thumper.

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Domino
December 4, 2008, 05:33 PM
Eh, just get a 1895 in 45/70...

Wanta B
December 4, 2008, 05:58 PM
Already have 4,2 blued GGs,1 SS GG and have on the way the new 16.25" Laminate SS GG.

My thought on this is that it is such a screamer out of a semiauto that it would be even more so in a rifle not having to overcome the moving bolt.

TexAg
December 4, 2008, 11:58 PM
Are you just looking at standard loads? Buffalo Bore has a 500 grain .45-70 doing 1625fps and a 300 gr going 2350 FPS. You sure .458 will top that?

mgregg85
December 5, 2008, 12:34 AM
Yeah the .45/70 would be a lot cheaper to feed too. And ammo for it will probably still be around in 50 years.

Kind of Blued
December 5, 2008, 01:08 AM
Like the 30-06, the 45/70 is never a mistake. ;)

I wish I could help you instead of saying the same old thing, but it sounds like a lot of work for not much of an advantage (or any to be honest).

dmazur
December 5, 2008, 01:19 AM
I am not a gunsmith, and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn -

However, all of these "Thumper type" cartridges have a rebated rim so they can function with the bolts available in AR-15 type rifles. My understanding is that this would give the cartridge feed mechanism in a lever-action a severe challenge.

I'm sure a custom gunsmith could figure out some way to make it work, possibly by timing it to the edge of the case rather than the edge of the rebated rim.

As others have said, the cartridge is only a way to get better performance out of an AR type. That performance is easily available in existing bolt and lever-action calibers, without gunsmithing.

Wanta B
December 5, 2008, 11:44 AM
Well I am not realy sure if there would be any significant advantage,no,but with the cartridges surge in populality and the fact that it 's current loads are standard to it for semi-auto use,it is not a far jump to load it hot in a bolt or leverguns.So doing might bring it past that of hot 45-70.

It is just a thought that crossed my mind yesturday and I figued I'd float it by folks here...hey there are plenty of wildcat loads that realy have no value compared to what is already out there.Also going back to the increase in popularity these could give the 450 MARLIN a run for it's money.

If ya all think it is weird, sure I agree but that is part of the apeal to me.Much like the thought of rebarreling an AK for .454 Casull...possibly.

dmazur
December 5, 2008, 03:18 PM
Not argument, I hope, but just information -

The problem isn't just rebarreling, as it is with the AR platforms. Lever guns can't "find" the rim (because it's rebated) so a tubular magazine feed for these Thumper-type rounds is going to be a challenge.

There are similar challenges with putting rimmed cartridges in a box magazine designed for rimless cartridges. Occasionally there would be rim-over-rim feed problems with this combination, such as the 7.62x54R in the Winchester 1895. The manufacturer apparently figured it out for feeding .44 Mag in the Desert Eagle, but it isn't necessarily just dropping rimmed cartridges into an existing magazine design...

Wanta B
December 5, 2008, 04:18 PM
No no,no argument at all.:)Floating the idea for info was/is my intent completely.I expect a bit of ***:eek::neener::barf:,and overall ribbing.

I hear you on the rimmed cases in a box mag.I have tried them in the AKs mag and they work ok as long as you pay attention and load them like a 10/22 extended magazine...I have rim-overed my 10/22 by the way!Cool thing is with the rim the 454s have a natural curve like the x39s.It has been awhile tho' and if I remember corectly I think the .223 AK mags work better because of the narrower mag lip distance.Not enough curve tho'?

Now as to "finding" the rim I agree here too.I think that the Marlin action would be the only one that would work because of the way it keeps rounds from double feeding.Sorry I do not remember the name of the little "spur" on the elevator.Exstraction may be the issue as I see it.:scrutiny:

Wanta B
December 5, 2008, 04:20 PM
Just want to add,I'm not knocking the .45-70,like I said I have 4 of them and plan on getting more!

rcmodel
December 5, 2008, 04:27 PM
I know that the Marlins are rechambered to 308 Win. from 35 Rem. rifles so I was thinking...Nobody rechambers Marlin 336's or 1895's to .308 Winchester.

The action is not nearly strong enough for any cartridge generating that much pressure.

rcmodel

Wanta B
December 5, 2008, 05:48 PM
I've seen Marlins in 375 Win.,52,000cup=/-.

Sorry it was a 358 Win from a 35 Rem rifle.But still I have shot 308 Win Marlins.2 of them.They are plenty strong enough.Look up .510 Kodiak Express...:D

R.W.Dale
December 5, 2008, 06:23 PM
Nobody rechambers Marlin 336's or 1895's to .308 Winchester.

The action is not nearly strong enough for any cartridge generating that much pressure.

rcmodel

Actually it's a somewhat popular conversion to ream a 30-30 or 35rem marlin to 307/308 or 256/358 wildcats.

Not really much of a wildcat actually. In the case of the 30 caliber you simply ream out the 30-30 chamber with a 308 win reamer, use 308 cases and dies but use bullets and data for 307win. The same Idea applies to the 35cal version

http://www.gunweek.com/2003/feature0301.html

SAAMI maximum pressure for the following cartridges is the SAME at 52,000 CUP:

.307 Win
.308 Win
.356 Win
.358 Win
.375 Win

the two rounds in bold have been factory chambered in the 336

moooose102
December 5, 2008, 06:27 PM
so, WHY is this such a screamer??? i have chroned 300 jhps out of my 45/70 @ 2215 fps. how is the 458 better than that? the corbons (300jhp) @ midway are running 1900 fps. am i missing something?

Wanta B
December 5, 2008, 07:13 PM
moooose102, I do not think that you are missing anything...the two are very similar but taking into consideration that the 458 SOCOM sends a 300gr projectile down range @ 2000fps from a semiauto then it will be even faster out of a bolt or levergun and possibly more still because it might be safe to load it hotter when used in one of these rifles.Also as I've said earlier it is gaining in popularity.

Mostly it is a curiousity of mine.

Wanta B
December 5, 2008, 07:16 PM
Krochus, thank you that was one of the articles that I was trying to find to direct folks to.

R.W.Dale
December 5, 2008, 07:23 PM
Krochus, thank you that was one of the articles that I was trying to find to direct folks to.

you're welcome. I had to do a ton of googling to finally find it.

jbadams66
December 5, 2008, 07:25 PM
I dont know what the case capacity of the 458 socom is but I believe it is less than the 45-70. If this is true there is no way that you could load the 458 socom hotter than the 45-70/450 marlin. Buffalo bore and corbon both load the 45-70 up to near max in the marlin action. I know that the 358 and 375 win were loaded to a higher pressure but they also had alot more metal in the chamber and this allowed more pressure. They also had less bolt thrust due to the smaller size as well.

You would also have to start with an 1895 action for the project because the loading gate/ejection port on a 336 action is to narrow to work with such a large diameter round.

Just more food for thought.

Wanta B
December 5, 2008, 07:37 PM
Ah yes,true enough,it might be easier to use the bolt from the 336 with the correct bolt face in an 1895.

As to pressure,sorry I am having difficulty finding the info but there is an excellent article done by the gentalman that rechambers 1895s to use the .510 KE(Kodiak Express),the worlds most powerful cartridge in a leveraction.It was featured in a recent magazine.

moooose102
December 5, 2008, 07:45 PM
well i have a question, how does the 458 socom compare to the 450 bushmaster? at one time, i thought i wanted one of those.

Wanta B
December 5, 2008, 07:46 PM
Ah! I think that I have found the article...levergun.com,enter then scroll to the bottom of the page and hit the link.:)

Wanta B
December 5, 2008, 07:54 PM
Hmm...that I do not know yet BUT that is a question I would like the answer to.I know that the 458 SOCOM has advantages in the use of UNmadified magazines.Not sure about the 450 Bushmaster in that regard.

458 SOCOM uses the same base as the 308 Win.
500 Beowolf uses the same base as the 7.62x39.
They both have basicaly the same case body diameter but the 500 is strait sided were the 458 is botle necked.Possibly more reliable feeding for the 458.
For some reason the 458 has better numbers both in volacity and round per mag even tho' the 500 has more case volume and still fits in the magazines.:uhoh:

gvnwst
December 5, 2008, 07:58 PM
The .450 Bushmaster is the same as the .458, (almost) but uses .452" bullets vs .458" ones. Uses the .284 win parent case, so the same .473" rim. (.308 rim)

Wanta B
December 5, 2008, 08:06 PM
Good to know,thank you.

Wanta B
December 5, 2008, 08:40 PM
450 Bushmaster = 250grn@2200fps. 30rnd mag = 14rnds
458 SOCOM = 300@2100fps. 30rnd mag = 10rnds

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