.25acp kills you just as dead...


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Thirties
September 21, 2003, 09:48 AM
This from today's LA Times:

"Police detained two suspects and were searching for another Saturday in the killing of a 25-year-old San Francisco Giants fan in the parking lot of Dodger Stadium, a shooting that authorities said had been triggered by a decades-old baseball rivalry.

Two families leaving the game during the eighth inning apparently traded words about the teams, police said. The dispute culminated when Mark Allen Antenorcruz, of Covina, was shot twice after a man he was arguing with pulled a .25-caliber semiautomatic handgun from his family's white SUV, police said.

Antenorcruz was taken to nearby Los Angeles County-USC Hospital, where he later died, according to Los Angeles County coroner officials."

(bold face added by me for emphasis)

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capbuster
September 21, 2003, 11:01 AM
Back in the early seventies when I worked on the graveyard shift as a patrolman,we noted that that the tiny 25acp round was the deadliest cartridge around our fair city. Handguns in this caliber were commonly carried by our citizens and commonly used.

caz223
September 21, 2003, 11:15 AM
You're missing the point, he died in the hospital.
Several hours later, no doubt.
I'd rather have a weapon that is chambered in something in a little faster-acting caliber.
Also, don't you think that they're taking their sport a little too seriously??
People that get that worked up over a game would have prolly died of high blood pressure later that evening anyway, don't you think?

Edited for correct wording...same idea

El Tejon
September 21, 2003, 11:18 AM
Yes it can kill, but can it STOP?:confused:

Thirties
September 21, 2003, 11:42 AM
"You're missing the point, he died in the hospital. Several hours later, no doubt."

I'm making the point, not missing the point. My point is that a .25acp can and will kill.

Your point, which I also agree with, is that the .25acp will not stop a crazed felon. So true.

These are two different points. I was just trying to remind people here that stopping is one thing, but killing is also a factor.

I totally agree the .25acp is not a man stopper. But let's not forget, it is a man killer. A fly swatter, it isn't.

Tamara
September 21, 2003, 11:51 AM
Yes it can kill, but can it STOP?

I'm quite sure that plenty of people have been rendered DRT by .25 ACP.

I just usually prefer to stack the deck a little in my favor by using bigger bullets. ;)

caz223
September 21, 2003, 12:03 PM
There's also the intimidation factor....If dirty harry carried a .25, do you think he would be as popular?
Just another silly visual that kept me out of the really good schools.
Dirty Harry holding onto a raven .25, asking "Do you feel lucky punk".
Well do ya?

hillbilly
September 21, 2003, 12:47 PM
Yes, .25 ACPs are lethal.

And .22 rimfires are lethal.

Shoot, a #2 pencil, sharpened, and wielded with force is lethal. Knitting needles are also lethal.

But I would prefer to trust my safety to a handgun catridge with a little more oomph.

You can also find reports and accounts of .25 ACPs bouncing off skulls at close range.

hillbilly

natedog
September 21, 2003, 01:17 PM
I've heard of criminals hyped up on PCP taking 10-20 9mm hits. I wouldn't want to trust my life on a cartridge that small, especially now that you can get a .380 (Kel-tec...P-3 AT i believe) in a similar sized package as some .25 handguns.

Gordon
September 21, 2003, 01:33 PM
I always thought that ANY criminal who recieved two or more hits in the face or five to nine hits in the torso from my Berretta .25 would start thinking medical care more than felonious assault. Ditto that for .22 short!Actually I didn't THINK that, I had it backed up by 100 years of FACTUAL shootings, it's the rare moron who is capable of a serious attack you can't retreat from if he is "drugged up" enough to be oblivious to pain ect. , they stagger at that point eh? Please don't sermonize me on effective caliber, I've been packing a .45 since Christ was a corporal! ;)

sebago
September 21, 2003, 01:53 PM
Sure the .25 acp will kill a person eventually, but so will the baloney sandwich and bowl of ice cream I just had for lunch. If I need to use a handgun in self defence I want to solve that problem right now and that to me means a larger caliber, 9mm or better.

semf
September 21, 2003, 03:07 PM
I've heard this argument rage for years. The only real life examples I have is when a punk friend of my son held up a astore and was shot several times with a 9mm and returned fire 3 times with his.25 hitting the store owner in the neck and killing him . The punk survived with somewhere between 5 and 9 (depending on the storyteller) bullets in him. Many misplaced shots from a 9mm did not incapacitate but 3 well place hits from a .25 instantly ended the fight. I'm not trying to glorify this punk but he was able to maintain his composure and return fire and hit his target ( all 3 shots in the neck) while under fire and after being hit several times. That makes much more difference than what caliber. A well placed .25 hurts alot more than a close miss with a .44

C.R.Sam
September 21, 2003, 03:40 PM
As above...
Kill; yes. Stop; no.

Doesn't have to be a crazed psyco druggie either.
Near me, non crazed gents had an arguement.
One shot the other with .25ACP.
Other took exception and drew and returned fire with one .45.
One instantly stopped n dead.
Other died later.

Think it was Cooper who said don't shoot someone with a .25, might piss em off.

Sam

WonderNine
September 21, 2003, 05:25 PM
The only guaranteed "stop" is a direct hit to the CNS. Brain and or spinal cord. In that respect 9mm or .357 is your best bet because of its penetration power.

curt
September 21, 2003, 05:26 PM
i sometime wonder whether these cop stories of the number of people killed by .25 and .22 are really representative. How many gangbangers go to the hospital after being wounded by a .22? I would guess not many, it probably would not be worth the questions from the cops that they would be subjected too.

Gordon
September 21, 2003, 05:46 PM
Don't go for medical care after .22 or .25 hits? The ones who didn't since Cival war times have universally had more on their minds than answering questions! You guys have fallen for the myth of "insignificant'" .22 short or .25 hits, it ain't so in real life guys.:banghead:

Gerald McDonald
September 21, 2003, 09:41 PM
As I have said before, I had an uncle who took a 22 from a cheap revolver in the side of the head at a distance of maybe 6-8 feet. He never knew what hit him, lived for two days comatose and having convulsions. Son in laws partner took a magazine full of 22 lr's from a Ruger or Browning (dont remember which) in about 3-4 seconds during a traffic stop. He was never able to even return fire. It took him out of the fight. Most were absorbed by his vest but one hit him in the corner of the eye, one hit his hip bone and traveled through his body to come out near his shoulder.
You can believe all of that shrugging off 22 hits you want, but dont try to feed it to me.

C.R.Sam
September 21, 2003, 10:22 PM
I think that we all agree that any of em will kill.

But I want a better chance of STOPPING the person tryin to kill me.
If he dies after killin me, doesn't do me much good.

Sam

Standing Wolf
September 21, 2003, 10:42 PM
Two families leaving the game during the eighth inning apparently traded words about the teams...

That's one approach to team loyalty, I guess.

Jim K
September 21, 2003, 11:03 PM
I don't think any caliber short of, maybe, a cannon, can be absolutely guaranteed to stop with one shot, but a .25 bullet through the eyeball will do a pretty good job.

Those who sneer at any gun better think again. If someone points a .25 at you and your response is to stand there tossing out one-liners, you can be too dead to hear the laughter.

(If Jeff Cooper actually said that bit about "if I find out", he is a bigger fool than I think he is. He sure didn't originate that silly saying; it has been around in one form or another since at least the Civil War.)

Jim

rock jock
September 22, 2003, 12:04 AM
a shooting that authorities said had been triggered by a decades-old baseball rivalry.
England and Brazil ain't got nothing on us. :rolleyes:

Croyance
September 22, 2003, 03:00 AM
It will kill, but the odds are lower.
And if you look up complete statistics, I'm sure you will find that while more people are killed with .22 LR's and .25 ACP's, many more survive. Criminals don't want to carry larger guns for many reasons. The percentage of deaths and stops must be drastically lower for such rounds.
Really, I don't know if I will have the time or composure to guarentee 2 shots to the face or 5 to the torso in the event of a felonious assault.

Dilettante
September 22, 2003, 04:36 AM
My father is a doctor. For most of my childhood he was in medical training.
I remember many times that he was in the hospital overnight, was exhausted the next morning, and later mentioned that he'd spent all night sewing up some scumbag for the Nth time. Often the creep was drunk, high on PCP, or threatened or vomited on staff members.
I'm not in a hurry to shoot anyone. I don't have the philosophy that you try to terminate every dangerous punk you run into. I will go to great lengths to avoid a lethal confrontation.
But if I ever am forced to kill someone, I don't want anyone's time (or thou$and$ of taxpayer money) to be wasted trying to fix him.

denfoote
September 22, 2003, 05:40 AM
I've been packing a .45 since Christ was a corporal!

I was not aware that Jesus Christ was ever in the Army!! :p

You would think, being God and all, that he would at least be an officer!! :D

ruger357
September 22, 2003, 08:15 AM
I feel pretty comfortable with my Jetfire in my pocket.

Double Naught Spy
September 22, 2003, 10:40 AM
Ah yes, another cry of those trying to convince themselves that their underpowered calibers are comparable to larger calibers! In this case, the comparison is with the condition of being dead. Being dead is a binary condition. Either you are or you are not. Many things can make you dead, including .25 acp loads. For defensive purposes, as noted, the issue isn't whether or not the opposition is killed with a .25 acp, but whether or not s/he is stopped.

Sure enough, the .25 acp can kill people just as dead, assuming the shot(s) is going to kill them. Bunches of folks end up wounded and really annoyed by being shot. As noted, death isn't very likely to be immediate.

.22s do kill more people every year than any other caliber, but then the .22 is the most common and most widely used caliber commerically made.

Understand that by suggesting that a given caliber will kill a person just as dead (and hence is just and dangerous/lethal) is flawed reasoning. A BB gun can make you just as dead, if it kills you, but it isn't likely to do that.

semf
September 22, 2003, 12:08 PM
I think what most of the micro crowd is trying to say is that placement is at least as important as caliber. The story I told stressed that I think. Multiple hits with a caliber recommended in this thread (9mm) did not end a fight but 3 hits from a .25 ended it instantly. The guy was dead soon after he hit the floor. Another told of a .22 victim never knowing what hit him still another of an armoured police officer immediatly dispatched by a .22. I have a step- cousin that was shot with a 30-30 he dropped the shooter with a .22 magnum.
The point is it's not the size of the piece of lead it's where it ends up. There are those that feel that anything less than .-- is not worth carrying. And others who feel that their micro rounds are all they need. In my opinion both are in for an unpleasant surprise someday.
For the record I normally carry a .38 with a .45 back-up. on occasion (alot) I carry a Beretta .25 on my ankle.

Kentucky Rifle
September 22, 2003, 12:18 PM
Well, I just pulled my inox Jetfire out of my pocket and looked at it. It has a Magsafe in the chamber followed by seven Fiocchi FMJ's. It's a thin, light, little package. However there is also a 642 on my hip. My Jetfire is my in-house back up. That back up changes to a Seecamp or Guardian full of RBCD's when I go out. Plus maybe a S&W 331 AirLite Ti or Taurus 731UL six round .32 mag on my ankle. I've grown quite used to carrying three guns at once. Good holsters~~doesn't bother me a bit. When the weather gets cooler, maybe I'll carry four. :)
Sam's right though. You gotta stop the bad guy before he chokes the life out of you and that's all there is to it.

KR

22luvr
September 22, 2003, 12:39 PM
Better a Beretta Jetfire .25 auto than nuthin.' (bang...."ouch, what wazzat?")

Still, I'd prefer my own Smith 340SC .357 mag (B-A-N-G !! "thud.")

get my drift?

C.R.Sam
September 22, 2003, 01:05 PM
Life is a gamble.
I like to try to work the odds in my favor.

Sam

Riphalman
September 22, 2003, 07:50 PM
We must've ended up in the same schools. "I know what your thinkin', punk......Did that thing jam five times....or was it six? Well in all the confusion with the shootin' and jam clearing going on....I'm REALLY not sure!" or Maybe "This here is a .25 automatic....the most piddly diddly handgun caliber ever made.....Why you could take a whole mag full of these babies and still have time to rip my heart out....so you'd better ask yourself.....

Double Naught Spy
September 22, 2003, 07:56 PM
As an alternative perspective on the matter, if you got to choose the firearm caliber of your opposition, would it be .45 acp, 9 mm, .380, or .25 acp?

Talk about a no-brainer sort of query!

peteinct
September 22, 2003, 08:15 PM
How could they be crazed baseball fans? They were leaving in the eigth inning for cryin' out loud!
pete

Quartus
September 22, 2003, 08:28 PM
Placement counts FIRST, caliber counts SECOND.


But it counts.



Uh, why not have BOTH accuracy and power?

Quartus
September 22, 2003, 08:31 PM
Riphalman,


:D :D

Geech
September 23, 2003, 12:43 AM
Uh, why not have BOTH accuracy and power?

It seems so simple. However, there are people who seem all too willing to jump down your throat if you advocate carrying a big caliber. "Carry as much as you reasonably can," without even advocating a specific caliber, once got someone's panties in a knot! :what:

Onslaught
September 23, 2003, 01:30 AM
I've seen video camera footage of a guy who was shot point blank in the back of the neck with a .25, and he and the guy who shot him were still fighting when the police arrived. The guy finally passed out after they broke the fight up.

Heck, if I carried a gun to "kill" someone, I'd still be carrying a Kel-Tec P32 in my pocket all by itself...

I don't want to kill anyone, I just want to be able to stop someone from attacking me and my family with intent to KILL us...

That's why I carry as large of a caliber as my attire/situation will allow, and

PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!

:cool:

SteelyDan
September 23, 2003, 02:08 AM
"after a man he was arguing with pulled a .25-caliber semiautomatic handgun from his family's white SUV..."

_______________

The point that hasn't been mentioned here is the media's obsession with reporting anytime an SUV is involved in an accident or any crime, no matter how peripherally. People don't kill people, SUVs do. Tell me how this is possibly germane to the story...... yet the reporter felt compelled to point out that it was an SUV. And a "white" one at that. Um, how are these facts even remotely relevant? Answer: they're not, but they fit neatly into the liberal reporter's view of the world, so they must be reported.

And yes, this is gun-related. It's precisely that same kind of liberal mindset, which is so predominant in the media, that doesn't want individuals to own guns (or SUVs) and its reporting is biased accordingly.

Rant mode off, but I just couldn't let this go without mentioning it.

Oleg Volk
September 23, 2003, 04:11 AM
Just heard of an ND with some sort of a .22 - bullet entered under the armpit, deflected off bone and ended up behind the bladder after bassing thogh intestines. The victim lived but required extensive surgery. I am currently introducing one of the ER staff to the four rules.

Quartus
September 23, 2003, 11:28 AM
Hmmm. My guess is that the ER person is well motivated! :what:



SteelyDan, good point. They're always at it. Coloring perception subtly sometimes, blatantly other times, but it has its effect. Like water dripping on stone, ove times, it changes things. You can't point to any one drop as having done any harm, but years later the stone is worn away.

longeyes
September 23, 2003, 12:46 PM
There is only one good reason to pack something like a Beretta
Jetfire (I have one): it will fit in just about any pocket, under
any conditions, even a large shirt-pocket. There aren't many guns
you can say that about, especially reliable guns. On the whole,
it serves best as a back-up piece for the reasons amply cited above.

Double Naught Spy
September 23, 2003, 05:30 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41354

Carrying pissant little calibers as backup guns is fine, but this story is a classic that provides a nifty example of potential problems. If you have to go to your backup gun, then the situation has all ready gone to hell so far that your primary gun option isn't available. When things get that bad off, do you really want a caliber often classified as "better than nothing"?

Of course, if you do have a pissant caliber gun, then about the only place it should serve is as a backup gun because pissant calibers suck as primary defense gun calibers.

And yes, I am fully aware that the above story is not conclusive and can be considered anecdotal. Even so, it is amusing that the .25 acp worked extremely well after the prisoner was shot five times with .25 acp and then two more with the .40. Yep, just a dead.

Gordon
September 23, 2003, 10:46 PM
While this is not a self defense or police story; I met a guy(pilot) in 1970 in Thailand that showed me his High Standard .22 magnum double derringer that got him away from 2 AK armed Pathet Lao . When they disarmed the pilot at gun point and were exited about finding all the neat stuff, he had palmed behind his head this gun and shot the 2 guys from 3 feet away. One was dead instantly when the pissant .22 fmj went thru his noggin and the other was hurting with a shot somewhere so bad my guy took the AK and blasted him, and walked out!:neener:

EJ
September 23, 2003, 11:33 PM
I'll try to make this short--

Guy decides to try to commit suicide runnin' around in a cemetary (appropriate no?) with Uncle's 25 auto Raven--
He's real drunk-- we grab him-- over--


Get a Attemt suicide call a coupl'a years later -- Guy put a 25 Raven to his head just forward of the temple--

I get there == You can feel / see the 25 slug under the skinonthe off side of the entry wound side -- just under the skin--
I pick up the 25 Raven on the table and find the old Rpt# and my Sig mark on it--- SAME GUN--

Uncle got the gun returned to him ---WHY I don't know>??

Now the guy lives but is blind-- :rolleyes:

I'll skip using a 25-- for ANY purpose--

Mattkc
September 24, 2003, 01:12 AM
Seen a lot of 25 cal rounds embeded in skulls, roofs of mouths and heavy clothing. If you got use something small use a 22 vips right in then bounces around. I've seen a lot of people shot with 25s and I can't remember one that died. Many didn't have to go to surgery they just worked it out the hole or made a small cut and popped it out. Many 25 shooting were treat and release. Just remembered a 25 fatality happened back in 1983 three shots to the temple point blank did get the job done.

22luvr
September 24, 2003, 01:04 PM
I was in my favorite gun store and an older gentleman was bench racing with the guy behind the counter. The talk got around to certain handguns and their effectiveness. Turns out the older guy was a retired deputy sheriff. He was shot point-blank with a .25 auto while scuffling with a suspect. The bullet pierced his upper lip and penetrated the bone structure between his nose and teeth, and came to rest against his tongue inside his mouth. Other than a slight indentation and some soreness in healing, he was none the worse for wear. He wasn't happy getting shot but do you think he is thankful it wasn't a 9mm or .357 mag?
Yikes!

CZ-100
September 24, 2003, 01:09 PM
A couple of years ago in FL. A 14 year old kid shot his teacher with a Raven .25. Result Teacher Dead, kid in Prison.

PackingHeat
September 24, 2003, 02:52 PM
The real point is that any gun is bad news if you are going to try to murder an unarmed victim. How much stopping power do you need to use on am unarmed stationary target?

Abominable No-Man
September 26, 2003, 04:50 PM
I think it's a matter of using the caliber in question for what it is best suited for. ALL bullets can kill, as has been pointed out before. But using the .25 as your primary defensive round is foolish, IMO. Granted, ANY gun is better than a sharp stick when the balloon goes up, but look at things realistically.

Best use for a .25 ACP? Empty the entire magazine into the facial area; a bullet in a tear duct will put anyone down. But get a bigger caliber, too.
If you've got time, get out the shotgun.

ANM

Zundfolge
September 27, 2003, 10:19 PM
I imagine a .25 would be more effective then evil thoughts and harsh language ... but with all the backup gun options out there I'm thinking even a .32 would be better (and a 9x19 or larger best).

At any rate, here's an interesting self defense story with a .25 ... yeah, the badguy dies but not after doing serious damage (although the woman did live ... which she likely wouldn't have if unarmed)

http://www.plusp.com/classroom/lesson30.php

Gordon
September 27, 2003, 11:12 PM
That one made me cry and thank G-d for giving out some justice that day. Yes ANYTHING is better than nothing.

Quartus
September 27, 2003, 11:32 PM
Zundfolge, that story, along with a bunch like it in a book (the name of which I don't remember) went a LOOOONNNG way toward convincing my previously anti wife that she needed to learn to shoot.

It's a good one to share.

Bainx
September 27, 2003, 11:43 PM
I still like the idea of throwin' the .25 at the bad guy.

Cooter Brown
September 30, 2003, 06:09 PM
But, its is only for last-ditch use, when all else including running like hell and begging for mercy fails. With CCI hollow points at about a yard or two distance it is very accurate, reliable, and knocks a bigger chunk out of the exit side of a pine 2 X 4 than does a .25 FMJ.

raveon59
October 1, 2003, 08:17 PM
Wasn't Mr. Brady hit with a .22 LR-so much for what the har that cal can cause.

okjoe
October 2, 2003, 12:57 AM
For what it's worth, here is a link to the first part of an FBI paper on handgun wounding factors and effectiveness:

http://www.pointshooting.com/fbipart1.htm

As I understand it, the paper was the basis for the FBI's going to .40 caliber for penetration effectiveness.

However, 40 cal's, as I understand it, are "hotter shots" on a 9 mm frame, and which because they are hotter, are harder to shoot accurately.

In some tests I have made, I found that a 40 cal is harder to shoot "accurately" than a 9 mm.

Also, and as I understand it, advancements in bullet production since the paper was published, have resolved the penetration differences between the "old" 9 mm and the 40 cal.

So it may be that one dilema, was resolved by another, which was followed by a resolution of the original dilema.

At least the paper's origin is the FBI.

Just trying to be helpful.

:) :) :)

Rich357
October 2, 2003, 10:56 AM
Things you can die of... a 25acp, 3 inches of water, blood poisoning from a scratch on your hand... and drinking water. Virtually every one who had died in the last 100 years has ingested water.

Rich
ps Did I mention many people who have eaten bannas have died (years later).

Double Naught Spy
October 2, 2003, 11:05 AM
Rich, ah yes, terminal theory. You forgot the most common cause of death, life. Life is a terminal condition. Everyone who has died had been alive at some point before they died.

You know, throwing your .25 acp pistol at the bad guy isn't a bad thing. You know that Superman would stand in place while folks shot him hundreds of times with pistols, rifles, machineguns. Sometmes he even smiled and would not flinch. Once the bad guys were out of ammo, they would throw their pistols at him and that got a dramatic response where he would duck to avoid the incoming projectile. He feared the gun, not the bullets.

Gordon
October 2, 2003, 11:16 AM
Yup, any one who doesn't fear getting hit by a .25 is living in Superman's world,for a while!:neener:

vanfunk
October 2, 2003, 07:09 PM
Actually, Double Naught...
Despite advancements in research and treatment, death remains the nation's #1 killer..............

:fire:
:cuss:
:banghead:
:evil:

vanfunk

JERRY
October 5, 2003, 01:54 AM
anyone remember the south carolina highway patrolman who pumped 4 .357's in a bad guy who in turn fired a single .22 from a naa mini revolver (about the same balistics as a .25 in these guns).

remember who lived and who died right there?



shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. oh, did i say shot placement?

iluv308
October 6, 2003, 02:03 AM
did Jeff Cooper not call the 25 acp a nose gun......

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