[Black Snowman]

I'd like a carbine for home defense. Pistols are nice but I'd like something easier to control and handle. I know you're thinking "Duh, shotgun" but I'd like to explore the possibilities of a pistol caliber carbine. I might still end up with a shotgun but they tend to be longer than what I'm looking for.

If money and legality were no object my 1st choice would be a P90 :D But what are some realistic choices? The barrels on the UMC and Berreta Cx4 seem a bit long and I have some tight spaces in my house. What about a MAC or Uzi style carbine? I don't really want to shell out the money for a SP-89 and I'd like a larger cartridge than a 9mm. I was thinking maybe a .45 ACP.

So opinions?

[Moparmike]

I just bought a Legacy Escort Aimguard shotgun. 18in barrel, 7+1 capacity and 3in chamber. Havent shot it yet, but it looks pretty mean.:D

And most importantly, its that sheeple-scaring evil black color.:D :cool:

[Black Snowman]

I just rememberd one of my thoughts behind the carbine, removable magazine. So I can store the gun unloaded but load it quickly if nessisary. That way if the perp gets to it first it's only going to be a club or if there's a struggle I can drop the mag so I hopefully don't get shot with my own gun. There are several magazine fed shotguns out there, like the EAA Saiga based ones (available in a 19" barreled version). That would fit that requirement but they're pretty large from what I can tell. A carbine would have a much shorter action.

[JShirley]

A Kel-Tec Sub-2000 in 9mm or .40 might be just what you're looking for. Very short, manueverable, and lightweight. Detachable mag in the pistol grip. About $300.

The bad news is the trigger. The Sub-9's was much nicer.

John

[glockten]

If you can find one, a Marlin Mdl. 45 might meet your requirements. It's a .45ACP semi-auto carbine that uses 1911 magazines. OAL is just 35½". They went out of production in 1999, however.

[jem375]

Hi-Point 9MM carbine.....works fine, perfect for what you are talking about.
and only around $200............10 shot magazine.....

[Black Snowman]

I just read that the Kel-Tec will take the Glock high-caps, which I have a couple of already loaded with Federal premium defense. Are these actually reliable guns? They look like cheap toys (of course so does the UMC ;) ).

I'll definately check out some of the other options as well.

[Andrew Wyatt]

You'll probably want to put a light on that, too.


the storm has rails for such a thing, and you can mount a nitrolon surefire on one with a scope ring for not much money.

[Black Snowman]

Ya, light would be good. You can find a way to slap a light on almost anything even if you have to resort to MagLite + Duct Tape so I didn't put accessory rails as a requirement.

Just for the "nifty neato keen" factor I thought about a carbine upper for an AR might be an option too. 'Cause I don't have an AR yet either! Too bad you can only spend money once.

[BryanP]

I assume lever-action carbine's are out of the question? There are several of those in .357 or .44 magnum that are quite nice. My HD long-gun is a Marlin 1894C in .357 magnum and I'm quite pleased with it.

Given your price restrictions, In 9mm there's the Kel-Tec Sub 2000 (which will use S&W or Glock hi-caps), the Hi Point, and the Marlin Camp 9 (which will use S&W hi-caps).

In .40 you've got the Ke-Tec Sub 2000 again. Supposedly Hi Point will be putting out a .40 version Real Soon Now.

In .45ACP there's the Marlin Camp 45 which uses 1911 mags. The Marlins in both 9mm and .45 are no longer in production. There are rumors of a .45 version of the Hi Point but I'll believe it when I see it.

Of the ones above, only the Marlin Camp x and the lever-guns are massive enough to make a decent club. The Hi Point is *really* light for it's size. The one time I've fired one I thought the recoil was worse than my Marlin .357.

[AUTIGER04]

"KEL-TECS look like cheap toys"?:eek: IMHO They are very good guns.:rolleyes:

[m14nut]

Find a used Marlin Camp Carbine in 9mm or 45acp.
The 9 uses S&W 59 series mags.
The 45 uses 1911 mags.

30 rounders are available for the 9mm version.

[Kamicosmos]

I second the lever gun choice. I'm starting to develop a load for my 1894S in .44 Mag.

Too bad glock doesn't have a carbine, that would be perfect for you sinc eyou already have mags. The Beretta storm would be perfect for me! heh. Maybe I'll look into those more...

I've heard that those Kel-Tec folding carbines are junk, but then again...that's just unsubstantiated internet rumors. :D I've never held or shot one. Didn't know they could use glock mags, so that's a bonus.

And, everyone seems to be going nuts over Kel-Tec's little pocket guns...

[BryanP]

Oh, and if you already happen to own a 1911 or a Glock, you could always check in to one of the carbine conversion units from Mech Tech (http://www.mechtechsys.com/)

I have absolutely no experience with these, so I can't tell you anything about them other than what you see on the web site.

[Double Naught Spy]

A MAC or Uzi is still just pistol ammo out of a little larger gun. You might get some additional velocity by using some of the hotter sub gun ammo, but otherwise, the 9mm parabellum round was designed to reach velocity at 4" of barrel. If going with a Mac or Uzi and regular ammo, then just get a Glock with a 4" barrel and 30 (33?) round pre ban magazine.

BryanP mentions lever action guns. You can get some nifty calibers in lever action above pistol ammo. For example, .45-70 will do quite nicely if you have several bad guys lined up in the hallway and want to shoot all with the same round.

.45 acp out of a carbine offers no real advantage over .45 acp out of a handgun with the except of sight radius. The .45 acp is designed to reach velocity out of a 5" barrel. You may still get some increases up to 6" or so, but after that or by 6" or so, then you start LOSING velocity. Basically, the .45 carbine is far from ideal. It worked well in the Tommy gun, but that was because of the full auto aspect, higher mag capacity, and longer sight radius for longer ranges out to 50 yards or so is what made it so nifty over the 1911.

The .223 is really a pretty good carbine round for home defense. Give it some thought. It has difficulty quite often in penetrating multiple layers of dry wall. Of course, it will penetrate when you don't want it to and not when you do. While probably not an option for you, a local PD has decided to go with 10" barreled AR-15s instead of MP5s because the 9mm out of the MP5 has a better chance of over penetrating walls.

[DMK]

I've got a Marlin Camp 9. It's a great little carbine, very light and handy, accurate, reliable, good ergonomics, well placed controls, uses hi-cap S&W 5906 mags. My only complaint is it that the bore can't be cleaned from the breach, but then again, neither can the bore on the Garand.

For a pistol caliber carbine, I'd highly recommend it. It's just that more and more, I'm starting to wonder about the utility of a 9mm carbine when I have a .357 revolver, a 12 gauge and an SKS available.

http://home.mchsi.com/~davidkoch/myarms/CampCarbine.jpg

[4v50 Gary]

M-1 Carbine with 22 Johnson Spitfire barrel. Light, handy and reliable.

[Spieler]

M1 Carbine! Half the cost of the pistol-caliber modern SMG-wanna be carbines, proven track record and short, light and fun as hell!

[CasualShooter]

US Cal .30M1 Carbine :D

[RAMMUNITION]

Ruger PC9/40

[Black Snowman]

Hmm, lots of good suggestions. I saw one of the Mech-Tech conversions for a 1911 at a local store. Didn't realize they had come out with more options and the price had come down so much. When they first hit the streets they were outrageously expensive. I'm glad to see they'be been successful enough for the prices to come down and selection to go up.

I thought about a 223 carbine but was worried about the penetration. Good to know that it's not as good through drywall. Hmm, there's an HK 53 at Cabela's for about $2500. But for that kind of money I could get the .50 BMG rifle I always wanted . . . and the Mech-Tech upper for my Glock.

There are lots of other 223 carbine's that aren't so outragously priced.

Wow, no wonder I asked, this is hard to decide!

[Dionysusigma]

If you wanna do it, do it right...
http://www.hkpro.com/usc.jpg
http://www.hkpro.com/usc.htm
:uhoh: :D

[Black Snowman]

I got to handle a UMC at a local store and it is sweet, but the barrel seems excessively long. Since the USPs can take 45 Super I'd imagine the UMC could as well but perhaps not being gas operated. If it could that would give the longer barrel some point as I could load with a slower burning powder to get more velocity out of it.

$1000 is a lot of money, but like you say, if you're gonna do it . . .
The only real thing holding me back from a UMC is that barrel hanging out so far.

I met an FFL that my brother bought his AR-15 from and he had a Department of Energy M-16 9mm conversion with a special fitting on the muzzel for mounting into the firm points to shoot out of the armored vehicles they trasported sensative neuclar materials on. Very rare. He used it for home defense. Had a Pro-Point 5 on it. That was a slick rig. Probably worth more than his truck by a considerable margin.

Of course if anyone broke into his house the 1st thing they'd see was the French .30 cal machine gun pointed out the front door on a tri-pod. It wasn't functional at the time but looked impressive :)

[Black Snowman]

Downloaded the UMC manual. It says the usual disclaimer of standard, modern, new, factory loaded ammo only and only in .45 ACP.

I also see that it's not gas opperated but delayed blow-back.

I'm sure it would survive some .45 Super but a steady diet sounds like a bad idea.

Edit: found this on the RemTec page: http://www.remtek.com/arms/hk/mil/ump/ump45.htm

"The UMP45 will easily handle a steady diet of ball, hollow-point and +P ammunition as well as limited amounts of the .45 Super. "

[juicy]

US Cal .30M1 Carbine


WIN :D

[Jack19]

How about an AR-15 and a good set of Peltor earmuffs?

I'd go with an AR prior to a no longer importable UZI or SP-89. It's easy to hang a light off an AR as well.

[Glockster35]

I have fired the fully auto UMP .45, and it's a blast (no pun intended). I would love to add one to my collection, if they weren't so darned expensive.

I went with a gun that I inherited, since it isn't worth much anyway. I got the Universal brand .30 Carbine, or a M-1 carbine clone.

Mine is reliable (thank god) and in really good condition. It's fun to shoot and getting ammo is still pretty easy. It's actually one of the funnest guns I own.

[hboy35]

I just got back from the range this morning trying out my recently purchased Hi-Point carbine. A good weapon for the price. I like the short length and lightweight. Recoil was a pretty good punch in the shoulder, though. Ran 100rds of wallyworld value pack winchesters and CCI blazers thru it without a hiccup. Kept 10rds in a inch and a quarter hole at 20yds. Picked it up for $100 used. Might be something to consider......

[cslinger]

Lots of good options.

I like Lever actions because they are short, maneuverable and can be insanely powerful. Plus they are so friendly and nostagic but if I were going to use a carbine for HD I would go with what we do have....

Sheslinger's, 16inch Bushmaster AR15. It is extremely handy, had cheap and available ammo and magazines, 30 shots on tap, very potent short range caliber and is basically the Lego set of the firearms world. You buy the base toy....ahhh gun and then buy any accessory or conversion you could dream of. You want pistol caliber you buy a 9mm/.40//45 upper. You want a light no problem. You want optics have at it. You want a way to carry spare ammo on the gun take your pick of options etc.

It really makes a find HD carbine and is extremely adaptable to whatever need an individual user might have.

The up front cost is a bit more but you get soooo much more versatility and adaptability then most of your other choices.

I've shot the Ruger PC9, Hi-Point carbine, Kel Tec Sub-9, M1 Carbine, various lever actions etc. and to be honest any of the mag fed carbines would fit your criteria just fine and once you get a 9mm, .40 or .357 maggie cooking out of a 16-20 inch barrel they really do start to become a new animal, especially .357.

Chris

[Black Snowman]

I want an AR, I want a .223 and I want a HD carbine . . . how much does a real M4 go for these days :D Well, I can live with an M4gery or other carbine just as easily.

Oooh, I know . . . I need the Bushmaster Bullpup M17S. That would be perfect! At those short ranges I don't need a fabulous trigger and it's REALLY compact. Get a 40 round mag and I won't have to worry too much about reloading :evil:

I still need to get a real AR of course . . . but I've always wanted the bullpup anyway and this is a good excuse ;)

Now that I've decided . . . I just need $$$ :banghead:

[cslinger]

Of all the M17 bullpups I have handled, never shot, not one of them screamed quality firearm to me.

Contact Southern Ohio Guns and ask what they can do on a price on a Bushmaster carbine. The standard length guns are $699 NIB.

The M4gery stock looks cool and all but if it can't collapse you might as well get the more comfortable full size stock or stubby stock if you want a really short carbine and at least you get the trap door storage.

I have been uniformly impressed with Bushmasters offerings.

Chris

[Black Snowman]

Local shop has a good selection of Bushmasters including the M17S at $709 and I know I can talk them down for that. CDNN has them for $640. I'll buy local but I can use that for leverage on the price.

Other than the triggers sucking I haven't hear anything bad from actual owners. I'm going to do some more research on it though. Maybe hit the AR forums and ask the folks around here.

[juicy]

ive been looking for a m1 carbine all over :(

anyone willing to part with theirs or point me to a good deal?

[RustyHammer]

US Cal .30M1 Carbine

Right on!

:D

[USGuns]

I've got a 9mm Sub2000. Great little rifle for the money. Solid and a hoot to shoot!

Also check out the Rav-9mm from Feather:
http://www.featherusa.com/page3.html

[tommytrauma]

I bought a sub-2000 a few months ago. Mainly bought it as a toy / conversation piece, but quickly found that it's a solid, reliable little shooter. After a little over 1000 rounds, I haven't had a single malfunction. The thing is light, accurate to at least 100 yards, easy to aim, and has virtually no recoil. It's also nice and short. Practice ammo is dirt cheap, 10 bucks for 100 rounds at wally world. With the S&W 659 mag configuration, high cap mags are stupid cheap, costing me about 10 bucks apeice. Haven't had so much fun plinking since I got my first .22 when I was a kid.

It resides in my truck now, but I'm seriously considering picking up another for the bedroom, as my Wife greatly prefers it over a handgun. I've heard it referred to as the poor man's MP-5, and can see why.

Oh, Kel-tec also sells a light mount that's inexpensive and supposed to be pretty solid. They also sell a 10 buck sling that works surprisingly well as an assault sling.

[jercamp45]

Though I currently call it a 'patrol rifle'!
Some I have tried over the years.....
SKS...OK, reliable, acceptable...but even with SP ammo probably over penetrates fo HD.
AK...ultraCOOL....but same as above for ammo.
Marlin Camp45...since I have a few .45's laying about, it made/makes since to have a carbine that used all those mags, right? Ugh....I got a LEMON! No worky at all. Shot 300 plus rounds through it(hoping it would break in) with all sorts of magazines.....was definately not reliable!!! With Ball, JHP...anything. Maybe I should have sent it back to Marlin to be fixed. But it really looked like a cheaply made, fragile weapon designed by a committee.
The Mechtec conversion might be worth while......but it too does not seem to be well made...though I have heard reliable and accurate for the pistol rounds it is throwing. I may end up with one of these for an interesting accessory to experiment with next gun show.
Oh, and though the 45 acp in a carbine is thought of as a short range gun, my Marlin experiment was conducted on an open range and I was making hits quite aways out there(200 meters!). Just had to play with it...too bad it did not work well, for it produced a most satisfying 'clank' when that large heavy slug hit steel!!
I rented and shot both the USC and UMP(!!) at a range here in Vegas. If I could have my pick..naturally the UMP wins...but not because it is full auto capable!! The short barrel, folding stock and natural 'feel' made it the deciding winner!
The USC...well, another committee design inspired by the actions of a traitorous individual in washington. It did not feel 'right' and the ten rounder's are expensive. You can get it converted to use 'grease gun' mags. But, you are spending alot of money on weapon and conversion to do so!
The AR's....well, as much as I do not care for the poodle shooter...they do have so may options for it, you can customize it like you want it.
Anyone here tried the .45 acp conversion units for an AR? If so, PM me and tell me the specifics. Reliability, accuracy etc.
I pondered the M17...but as Cslinger said above it did not look real quality, and a read that it may have trouble with SP ammo....a requirement for anti personnel use IMHO!
I have no experience with the KelTec or Hi-point, though I have heard from owners of a gun range that both have stood up to alot of use. If they made one that shot .45 acp out of 1911(preferably Officer's sized) mags???? I would definately try it out as another experiential experiment.
The Berretta C4 Storm(?) looks very interesting...but it ain't yet a .45 and it won't use the chosen mags of my existing collection. But if you are uncommitted..........
YES to a light. A white light for HD or Patrol is a required accessory! Blinds oppenent...you can see but they cannot, and the light hurts the eyes!
My percieved need is perhaps different than many...I do not hunt(though I do track down some colorful individuals!). I like the detachable mag, the self loader concept, short over all length, and low recoil(old body, old bones) and the pistol caliber(if in .45) is fine by me. A quicker shot at 50 to 100 meters is my primary concern.
.02............
Jercamp45
He who runneth off at the fingers!!

[Black Snowman]

Eneded up going with the M17S for the simple fact that it was the shortest thing I could get for manuving through the house that wasn't NFA. Sights are horrible, trigger is mushy, and I haven't had a chance to get it to the range to try out the reliability yet but I LOVE this gun.

I like wierd actions, the trigger could be vastly upgraded if they had put about $10-20 more into the mechanism but it would only be more crisp and not more reliable. The actual mechanics of the trigger look solid as heck.

I got 3 used Israili Orlite magazines from CDNN and 2 work in it perfectly and the third doesn't always want to stay in the mag well. They all look the same to me so I'm working on that one.

I also have 1000 rounds of Wolf 55 gr HP ammo. Hollow points gave my Brothers Bushmaster carbine fits, if the same holds true for the M17S I'll likely have some ammo up for sale or trade ;)

I'll most likely go to the range tomarrow to sight in the 50MM BSA dot sight I have on there now and I'll let you know what I think of it then.

[MagKnightX]

Steps to a good HD carbine:

1. Get M1 Carbine, USC, Cx4, or whatever carbine is wanted. OR, see step 1a.
2. Fill out ATF Form 5320.1, Application to Make and Register a Firearm, for manufacture of a short-barreled rifle. Get a $200 check made out to ATF, and a couple of fingerprint cards, and a letter from your local chief LEO. Send it to ATF. Wait for a while. OR, see step 2a.
3. AFTER FORM 1 IS APPROVED AND RETURNED WITH TAX STAMP, cut down barrel to suitable length, and recrown if necessary. Also, reposition sights if necessary. Get a folding stock and whatever eeeee-vil features you would like, as it is now no longer regulated by the 1994 Crime Bill.
4. Enjoy.

Alternate:
1a. Pick out a SBR in a suitable caliber for your needs. YOU CAN NOT PURCHASE IT YET!
2a. Fill out ATF Form 5320.4, Application for Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of a Firearm, using whatever necessary information from SBR and Class 3 FFL Dealer who will eventually provide you with item. Get a $200 check made out to ATF, and a couple of fingerprint cards, and a letter from your local chief LEO. Send it to ATF. Wait for a while.
3a. AFTER FORM 4 IS APPROVED AND RETURNED WITH TAX STAMP, get your SBR carbine. Add a folding stock and whatever eeeee-vil featured you would like, as it is now no longer regulated by the 1994 crime bill.
4a. Enjoy.

Note: The above is not legal advice and MAY NOT BE CORRECT! Ensure that you fill out whatever form correctly and properly, and do not even try if you aren't 21 or over. State and local restrictions apply. Now git offa mah porch.

[Black Snowman]

Hey MagKnightX, sounds like a great plan if I weren't so impatient. I've actually always wanted an M17S and really just using this as a justification to spend the money ;) There's a very good chance that down the road I'll do excatly what you are suggesting.

[Onslaught]

I think you made a good choice! I too like "unique" actions, and if I weren't left handed, I'd own one by now...

Hey, check this guy (http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/catalog/item/29585/1134.htm) out for serious custom work on your M17S... He does everything from shorten the bbl to shortening and lightening the receiver itself, to adding a "preban look" authentic style muzzlebrake.

http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/i/M17/217sB4After.jpg

He keeps promising pistol caliber uppers for the M17s, but nothing just yet. He's so well known, and so good at what he does, he's usually a month or more behind.

Maybe I should put a bug in his ear about a left-handed conversion ;)

http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/i/M17/HSSpecialPV.jpg

[Kharn]

MagKnightX:
Only machine guns are exempt from the '94 AW ban, short barreled rifles must comply with the ban. BUT, on the other hand, any NFA weapon is exempt from the import bans (counting the # of US made parts).

Kharn

[Onslaught]

Only machine guns are exempt from the '94 AW ban, short barreled rifles must comply with the ban.
Yep, an SBR created from a Post-Ban rifle still cannot have a folding or telescoping stock, or a threaded bbl or flash supressor attached.