380 Mousegun


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earlthegoat2
December 7, 2008, 06:33 PM
I am quite concerned. There seems to be an epidemic of pocket 380s. Is it the perfect caliber and gun? Why is there so much demand for these guns? Is it the price, or the size, or the feel? At my local gunshop they cant keep these in stock. Just like everywhere probably. They dont have to be pocket guns either. If it says 380 its as good as gone yesterday. Even a 500 dollar IMI Micro Desert Eagle. Why do we feel we have to abide by the minimum acceptable standards. If you ask someone why they carry it they say because its so small and can go in a pocket. Many have said the 380 is not at acceptable power levels for self defense yet this does not seem to be affecting anyone. Its either just barely not enough or just barely enough. I say its not enough by far.

Its barely enough to meet the first rule of a gunfight. I see it this way: If you are so concerned about the size of your gun then you automatically have to be concerned about the power level because small size generally equals small power. So you are OK with starting out at a disadvantage. Then theres the group that just got their CCW/CPL and need a carry gun. This fills the bill immediately. No need to find a holster for that Glock or 1911 now. Just throw it in a pocket holster and into the pocket it goes.

Im starting to get leery of the 380 crowd because if they like not putting thought into their method of carry or their carry piece are they putting effort into training with it. Those CCW/CPL classes are all well and good but you need to practice with your carry rig all the time. Unfortunately not many do. They get the license and get the gun and put it in their pocket and wait to be unprepared for a fight they cannot be prepared for without training.

Obviously the 380 Mousegun will not be the preferred choice of person with the warrior mindset or any gunfighting practitioner. It is slow to deploy and slow to stop. Double taps may bring things into balance if very well placed. I guess the long and short of it is that carrying a gun is all about compromise. But I just feel that the 380 is a bad compromise.

Naturally, just opinions.

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don95sml
December 7, 2008, 06:55 PM
As you probably already realize, you will get a wide range of responses from those who would settle for .22 caliber to those who want 10mm or even more powerful. I can't buy your analysis in its entirety. I shoot IDPA matches with a 9mm SIG P239, so I get a lot of practice with that weapon. I actually carry a .380 SIG P230 because it is more easily concealable, and I feel it is enough gun in the environment in which I live. The beauty of this arrangement is that these two pistols operate identically (DA/SA), have operating levers in the same location, etc. This means that while I only shoot my carry gun at the range a couple of times a year, my more frequent practice with the 9mm insures that I still will be proficient with the carry gun if the situation requires.

The Lone Haranguer
December 7, 2008, 06:56 PM
It is hardly the ideal gun or caliber, but its small size makes it easier to carry, helping ensure you will always have something. Also, a .380 has more power than the .25s or .32s that used to be the standard for these pocket guns.

jocko
December 7, 2008, 07:27 PM
a rock

sniper7369
December 7, 2008, 07:47 PM
The .380 may not be ideal, but it beats the heck out of using harsh language and a stick. I carry a KT P-3AT (and sometimes a P-32) as a BUG to my G30. I really think if you were to dump six of those 90gr CorBon rounds into a guys thoracic cavity that he would probably stop what he was doing that made you shoot him. :)

gbelleh
December 7, 2008, 08:25 PM
The little .380s make great BUGs. Way better to have a .380 than nothing.

Just because someone carries a .380 doesn't mean they don't practice or are ill-prepared.

It's always good to have choices in the carry rotation.

Some people collect pocket guns.

The .380 might not be the most effective pistol round, but it's far from harmless.

Thank goodness for the variety we have. If you don't like .380, you don't have to buy one.

Marcus L.
December 7, 2008, 08:38 PM
If you can carry a 9mm or .38spl, you would be better off. Most 9mm loads will penetrate around 13" in bare gel while expanding to around .60-.65". A .38spl will usually penetrate to around 12" and expand to around .60". A decent .380acp round will penetrate to about 11" and expand to about .50". The best documented loads are the Hornady 90gr XTP, and the new Hornady 90gr FTX which have the best combination of penetration and expansion.:
http://www.hornady.com/images/sell_sheets/09-critical_defense.pdf

However, the .380acp is pretty weak with any load against windsheilds and other commonly encountered barriers.

So, there is a terminal effects advantage to using 9mm or .38spl.

I wouldn't want to use a .380acp for duty or serious defense work, but I like to use it for a small pistol to carry around when I don't expect to be running into trouble. It's lighter and easier to conceal than a 9mm or .38spl. Normally, I carry a P239 9mm off duty, but when I'm wearing light clothing and am more focused on comfort than anything else, I don't feel undergunned when my purpose is to escape danger.

eldogg
December 7, 2008, 08:55 PM
my mouse gun is a beretta tomcat 32 apc. i load it with a mixture of 71 grn. ball and 60 grn. xtp's. practice practice practice, and it will do the job.

benderx4
December 7, 2008, 10:12 PM
Geesh, I probably shouldn't mention that my summer carry is a Seecamp .32. I figure it's better than a sharp stick in the eye.

MachIVshooter
December 8, 2008, 02:45 AM
Obviously the 380 Mousegun will not be the preferred choice of person with the warrior mindset or any gunfighting practitioner. It is slow to deploy and slow to stop. Double taps may bring things into balance if very well placed. I guess the long and short of it is that carrying a gun is all about compromise. But I just feel that the 380 is a bad compromise.

We're not gunfighters and warriors. We're armed citizens, and many of us have weighed the odds of ever actually needing the gun against the incuberance of carrying something more potent.

The .380 performs adequately so long as the target is not wearing really heavy clothing. That's why folks like me often do carry a .380 in the summer months, but switch to something larger when cooler weather sets in and heavier clothing allows the concealment of a larger weapon. As well, the likelihood of the threat wearing a heavy jacket or coat in winter moths justifies the more potent rounds.

buttrap
December 8, 2008, 05:09 AM
Most people dont end up defending their life against windsheilds or barrers. They just want a small easy to hide gun just in case is all and it sure beats peeing on their shoes. I would think you whack a Star Fire JHP in a guys air intake at 4 feet he probably will not go oh my thats a .380 and laugh it off.

moooose102
December 8, 2008, 08:00 AM
for me, the 380 is all about the size. if it were larger, i would have a different gun. it is the MINIMUM caliber i will carry, to protect me and my loved ones. if they made a 45 that was this size, even if it hurt like he!! to shoot (which it would!), i would carry that instead. in the cooler months, i usually do carry my 45. but sometimes, i just cant conceal it well. that is where the 380 really shines. and, by the way, i load alternating fmj and hp pills. i want both penetration, and expansion. since you will probably only realisticly get one or the other with a 380, i do both, just double tap!

usp9
December 8, 2008, 08:14 AM
Its barely enough to meet the first rule of a gunfight.

That is a false assumption.

Funderb
December 8, 2008, 08:43 AM
.380 is a pretty good round.

I think you are stuck on .25acp there partner.

kokapelli
December 8, 2008, 09:21 AM
Personally I don't like having a 9mm or larger pistol stuck down my pants here in Arizona where it gets to 110º + in the summer.

I decided long ago that I was not going to have a gun determine how I dressed.

If I know I will be in an unsafe area I'll have a PM9 in my pocket with something larger in my car, otherwise my P-3AT is my always gun.

I have twice avoided a potential problem by simply pulling my P-3AT partially out of my pocket and the fact that I was armed seemed to be enough.

schnarrgj
December 8, 2008, 09:29 AM
There were a whole lot of assumptions in your statement. What bothered me the most is your statement "Those CCW/CPL classes are all well and good but you need to practice with your carry rig all the time. Unfortunately not many do. They get the license and get the gun and put it in their pocket and wait to be unprepared for a fight they cannot be prepared for without training." I would wager that there are just as many if not more who do not train and cannot shoot the larger callibers. When I am at the range, I see more often than not, people with their pistols who cannot hit the target with any consitancy. Shot placement is the key. If you just buy a handgun, start carring it and not practice, you are kidding yourself that the caliber alone will win. Double tap? They would be lucky to hit a semi. Very often lesser calibers are often easier to learn to shoot , shoot well and get off a second shot quicker. I and my wife are comfortable carrying a 380. We practice and practice often.I am just as concerned with those who scoff at the lesser calibers and tout the larger to the untrained who may not have the skills to shoot them well and are unable to because of their inability to handle the muzzle blast and recoil.

The 380 is capable and has shown it for many a year. Remember shot placement it the key.

Jason M
December 8, 2008, 09:55 AM
I usually like to read every post before I chime in, but I’ll just jump right in here.

I can’t buy hardly anything you said. Firstly, .380 is not a “mouse gun”. The pompous .45ACP and .40S&W crowd would say something like that. A pistol and its ammunition have one job and that is to inflict mortal damage on a HUMAN target. It was the purpose of their design from the beginning. If the pistol is chambered in whatever caliber (meaning modern pistols, mostly), it will do the job. A caliber does not gain notoriety and popularity because it FAILS to do the job it was designed to do. It really is that simple.

On conceal-ability, the .380 is a great compromise over even a 9mm. The .380 is advantageous in that is the most powerful cartridge you can chamber a pistol for and still have the pistol a simple, straight blow-back design without making the gun weigh 2 pounds (see Hi-Point firearms). This makes the gun thinner, shorter and easier to conceal because of those reasons.

The con, however, fall to the poor ballistic coefficients of .380ACP bullets. The 90gr pills are rather short and thusly have poor flight characteristics. The longer the bullet is, the better penetrating power it can have (this is one reason why an arrow may go right through a black bear but FMJ .460 Ruger round may not, even though the .460 has WAY more energy than the arrow).

Calling .380 a “mouse gun” is a statement from the uniformed. And I actually do not own a .380ACP pistol. I carry 9mm, .40 and .45 and I still advocate .380 as perfectly acceptable.

huntsman
December 8, 2008, 10:10 AM
We're not gunfighters and warriors. We're armed citizens, and many of us have weighed the odds of ever actually needing the gun against the incuberance of carrying something more potent.

I believe that is exactly who Mr. Browning designed the caliber for.

skeptiq
December 8, 2008, 10:18 AM
I agree with most of what JasonM said, however, I was of the assumption that "mouse gun" refers to the size of the gun, not the caliber (please correct me if I am wrong).

I do not have my carry permit (yet), so I have not purchased my carry piece yet. I am however researching them now so I know what I want when the time gets closer.

My debate with a carry piece is between the 380 and 9mm. I am looking at: Bersa 380 and Kel Tec PF9. The major decision for me is going to be based more on if I want a different caliber or not. My current handgun is a 9mm, so I am debating from more of an ammunition standpoint. Would I rather have to buy one type of ammo for both my guns, or different ammo for HD than my carry gun. Right now I am leaning towards having just 9mm's, but it has nothing to do with 380 being "inferior" as some would put it.

10.5 inches of penetration is plenty, just ask my wife (sorry couldn't help myself). But seriously, I am pretty sure there isn't one person saying a 380 is not good enough that would stand in front of one.

SniperStraz
December 8, 2008, 10:20 AM
10.5 inches of penetration is plenty, just ask my wife LMAO

jocko
December 8, 2008, 10:20 AM
have to agree witk koka on that. I won't dress to carry, haven't in 46 years and don't intend to now.

46 years ago we had very little choice for a pocket gun, today they abound for what ever dollar you want to spend. The 380 is my lowest I will go to carry, but my preference is my PM9 which can ride in my front pocket 24/7, if not that then indeed my lcp 380.

Mad Magyar
December 8, 2008, 10:24 AM
How wrong was the adage about your pistol should "be comforting & not comfortable". Pistoleros do want comfort & carry a package that is relatively stout. The .380 does fit the bill and mfgr's are making killing on this demand. However, my .380 pocket-rocket goes by the wayside in cold weather making room for larger calibers due to better concealment: more clothes.:)

krs
December 8, 2008, 10:34 AM
I am quite concerned.

This is always commendable; concern is good.


Is it the perfect caliber and gun? I say its not enough by far.

OK fine.

Naturally, just opinions.

Yes.

PRM
December 8, 2008, 11:12 AM
Yep - small has to go!

Attire is everything!

If my humor is unappreciated - still have a Merry Christmas

vintage sportsman
December 8, 2008, 11:22 AM
Sta away from the PPK/S, am waiting for UPS to come drag it away to S&W. Has broken twice in lessa than 50 rds?! Nice little carry gun, but not worth a thing if they don't function - comments?

kokapelli
December 8, 2008, 12:52 PM
Sta away from the PPK/S, am waiting for UPS to come drag it away to S&W. Has broken twice in lessa than 50 rds?! Nice little carry gun, but not worth a thing if they don't function - comments?

Sure, if you like that style gun get a Makarov or a Bersa.

old_ironsights
December 8, 2008, 01:08 PM
earlthegoat2, you opine that, "Its barely enough to meet the first rule of a gunfight" but I've not met the person yet who was willing to be shot with a .380 to prove just how totally inadequate it is.

I don't suppose, warrior that you are, you'd volunteer to be the first....?

Jason M
December 8, 2008, 01:23 PM
I agree with most of what JasonM said, however, I was of the assumption that "mouse gun" refers to the size of the gun, not the caliber (please correct me if I am wrong).

I think you are correct, but "mouse gun" seems to have become a derogatory term for guns people think are weak or some such thing.

And choosing 9mm over .380 is not a bad thing. A little more power when it comes to protecting your life is never unwarranted. If you can carry the larger pistol confidently and comfortably with no issues, then by all means, carry it. My carry piece is a Kahr CW9 most of the time. Small, thin, easily carried and doesn't restrict my ranges of motion. 7+1 of 9mm is, to me, always better than .380, but given certain circumstances for carry, I would certainly not turn away .380.

jackstinson
December 8, 2008, 01:26 PM
Obviously the 380 Mousegun will not be the preferred choice of person with the warrior mindset or any gunfighting practitioner.
I think you answered yourself. Not everyone has a "warrior mindset" or is a "gunfighting practitioner".
A lot of people carrying are just plain folk who do what they are comfortable with to protect themselves. They get a CHL and a small handgun, hopefully most learn to shoot it well. That may be far less gun and training than the gunfighting practitioner (sounds like something from a movie) might feel all wam'n'fuzzy with. Consider all the folk carrying pocket .25acp's for decades.

Bobo
December 8, 2008, 01:45 PM
My personal reasons for being a .380 mousegunner...

My goal was to obtain one firearm that would work for all contingencies.

I knew that this would mean that I probably would have to accept some compromises.

My list of priorities were:
1) A gun that could be within arm’s reach at ALL times.
2) That could be TOTALLY concealed.
3) That would be powerful enough to stop most anticipated threats reliably in all light levels.
4) That I could become and stay proficient with quickly and easily.

I bought my almost perfect compromise about two and a half years ago. I got a Kel-Tec P-3AT with an ArmaLaser sight and a few other minor enhancements that make it more efficient for me. I carry it 24/7/365 in a SmartCarry holster with two spare magazines filled with a mix of Remington Golden Saber JHP and Santa Barbara TCMJ. I say “almost perfect” compromise because I would have preferred at least a 9 mm. Actually, if I could find a pistol of similar size and weight in 9 mm that would accept a laser there would be no compromise at all!

Bobo

lanternlad1
December 8, 2008, 02:42 PM
"Actually, if I could find a pistol of similar size and weight in 9 mm that would accept a laser there would be no compromise at all!"

Kel -Tec PF-9?

I've had both - its VERY close in size/weight to the P3AT and is a 9mm.
Its very much a "carry much/shoot little" gun tho, as it will chew up your hand.

earlthegoat2
December 8, 2008, 06:37 PM
Quote: I don't suppose, warrior that you are, you'd volunteer to be the first....?

Im sure there arent going to be many volunteers to be shot with a 22 LR either

HarleyFixer
December 9, 2008, 11:02 AM
I find it interesting that the .380 is so denegrated on here. It has been the primary pistol cartridge in Europe for almost a century. Is it the the best available.....No.......is it adequate.....Yes

jjohnson
December 9, 2008, 02:38 PM
Sure, I'll weigh in with the rest of you.

I do prefer 45ACP for self defense, but it's just not concealable enough for me under most circumstances.

My usual CCW is a Makarov in .380. Believe it or not, it is the replacement for my Kel-Tec P40 (.40 cal, no longer made). The Kel-tec lost its job when, after no more than 300 rounds or so, it broke the slide release pin:what:, rendering it useless. :eek:

The Mak, on the other had, has been through a few thousand reloads and several hundred factory loads, and has digested all of them reliably. I do like more power in a handgun, but if I have to choose, I'll take an utterly reliable .380 over a .40 I don't trust :scrutiny:any day.

Phantom Captain
December 9, 2008, 05:04 PM
Wow, this will make you choke then...

Just got back from the range and shot 150 .380 rounds through my PPK/s. Yes, I practice with mine. Quite a bit actually too.

vintage sportsman: I have a stainless S&W PPK/s with over 1500 rounds through it with very little trouble other than it not getting along with certain manufacturers bullets. It really doesn't like FMJ Fiocchi in particular, they just don't feed right and I'm not even sure why. I think it may even be that they are hotter and doing something on the blowback but am not sure. Those are pretty much the only FMJs it doesn't like. Most all other FMJ's shoot fine and I usually practice with either Magtech or Independence and sometimes American Eagles. For carry rounds I'm sold on Remington Golden Sabers with the 102gr bullet. They feed perfectly, are super accurate and I trust my life with this package. Love my PPK/s even though I see a lot of people down-talk them.

To the OP, my PPK/s .380 is the perfect balance between concealability, feel and power in my opinion for the situations I would expect to ever be in. Plus I'm super comfortable with it and shoot it really well. It's actually my colder weather gun when I'm in heavier or more clothes.

You don't like the .380s then you will really be stunned to find my summer gun is a Beretta Tomcat INOX .32. I have no problem carrying the .32 and LOVE it for it's size and concealability also. I also really like the flip up barrel. I have full faith that 8 rounds of .32 FMJ will stop anyone. I even carry a spare mag with it. I also have complete faith and trust in my little .32.

Don't get me wrong, I also own a 9mm P99 and .45 1911 but I just don't like carrying them so much. Occasionally I do just to do something different but for the most part they are both too big, too bulky, too uncomfortable for me and how I dress and why I carry. I'm completely happy with my choices and have complete faith and trust in both my little "mouseguns".

DMW
December 9, 2008, 09:02 PM
I use the camcorder logic on this one. A friend once told me to buy the smallest camcorder you can find. That way you will take it with you more often.

In the case of a carry weapon, the vast majority of people that carry them will never use them for self defense in their lifetimes. So, 99.999% of the argument for a carry weapon is about ease of carry and not stopping power.

CDH
December 9, 2008, 10:44 PM
While I'm one of those who is perfectly comfortable carrying a .380, I've found that it's possible to carry a 9mm in the size and form factor of a mouse gun... the Rohrbaugh R9S Stealth.

I originally got it to be my "lightly dressed" pistol for when I used to carry my PPK .380.
But now, the Rohrbaugh has not only replaced my PPK, it's also become my most frequently carried pistol on any given day.
Front pocket, back pocket, and IWB; it does it all.

Boba Fett
December 10, 2008, 12:02 AM
Just watch this video. The guys at Down Range Relevision explain the key points of what this kind of weapon is used for.
Down Range TV (http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid452320104/bclid459256134/bctid1433966126)

I think this pretty much covers all the little mouseguns. They have their role.

I used to hear the derringer pistols referred to as "gut guns." Meaning that you stuck it in someone's gut and pulled the trigger. Meaning, it was a very close range weapon.

The mouseguns (which have come a long way since the derringers) are perfect for the "Give me your walled," situations (please, I'm not suggesting people play hero). Such confrontations are usually close up and might not allow you to get your standard 45 carry gun. They make a good number of mouseguns that actually fit in your back pocket with a special add-on that makes the gun mostly square (i.e. like you are reaching for your wallet).

As for the 380 caliber, I don't much care for it. Nothing wrong with the round. It has it's role. Just personal preference. I actually prefer the 9mm; very fun for plinking...but it really does have some issues as a carry caliber so I don't carry it (i.e. going through the bad guys and into other people).

I don't quite see how a 380 caliber gun is "slow to deploy." A gun in my shorts pocket is far easier to get to than reaching behind my back and under my shirt. At the very least, it is no slower to deploy than most other conceal carry methods.

Someone once jokingly told me that all pistols are a compromise to rifle calibers.
(The notable exception being the AMT Automag III (http://modernfirearms.net/handguns/hg178-e.htm)which came in 30 Carbine.) But consider that if someone shoots you with a 380, it isn't going to be like they shot you with a BB gun.

Most of us probably won't be attacked by a drug crazed psychopath that required us to empty the magazine of a full size 45 into them (or put another way...most of us won't need that kind of stopping power). However, your grandmother walking to her car at the grocery store at night has a higher probability of encountering some nasty people who want to mug her. She can reach into her purse and pull out a small gun with a recoil she feels comfortable with and defend herself. If your a 6'5" guy weighing 200 pounds, you can handle the higher calibers easier and probably won't have to worry about getting mugged in the first place.

Most people will tell you that shot placement wins the battle...not the caliber. If you shoot someone in the head with a 22 they will be just as dead as with a 45. But please...aim center mass...most people aren't that good a shot especially in these sort of situations...I know I wouldn't be.

I've been looking at getting a mousegun, but wasn't impressed with most until the new Ruger came out. It won't replace my standard CCW, but it will give me some extra versatility. Probably will carry both from time to time.

MICHAEL T
December 10, 2008, 12:42 AM
I think my Colt Mustang is a better carry than my KelTec Which was smaller and lighter than my PPK/S That was replaced by my Bersa I really see nothing wrong with a 380. 380 About the same as the old 36 cal BP pistol and Wild Bill did all right with those. Its really shot placement. Funny how many people have died or went to hospital from the little 22 25 32 and 380 .

Bryan_Willman
December 10, 2008, 01:22 AM
A look at books like "stopping power" reveals that even a .380 is a one shot stopper some good part of the time. Between 50% and 70%.

Which means that an attacker is able to continue to prosecute their attack between .5 and .3 of the time. Assuming you only shot them once.

If you shoot them twice, their chances of continuing their attack are, say, .5*.5 (or 25%). In other words, if a gun is a .5 one shot stopper, we can sort of expect it to be a .75 two shot stopper. (There are issues with this related to thick clothes/armor and the mental state of the attacker.)

But it does lead me to think that it's not "bullet-power" that matters, but rather "rate-of-hits * bullet-power * odds-gun-is-at-hand * amount-gun-interfers-with-taking-cover * odds-gun-works". There are likely more terms in the equation.

There is apparently NO weapon you could carry that will stop 100% of attackers - some people are not halted by blasts from 12ga shotguns.

And context matters a great deal. Should law enforcement carry .22LR pistols on patrol? No. On drug raids? Surely not. On border patrol? Good gawd no. But all of those activities involve the LEO confronting someone. Traffic stops for driving erratically. Arresting people. Stopping people from crossing the border illegally.

I (and many of us) don't do those things. I'm really only interested in making threats go away. I pay (via taxes) for LE to do the other things, hopefully in organized groups with good tactics and good equipment.

The LEO often faces someone who thinks of it as "fight and maybe die, or comply and go to prison, which is worse than dying."

But a defender generally doesn't - someone attacking me faces "fight and maybe die, or run away before the cops get here"

So, *could* I face an attacker (or group of them) amped on PCP and Crank who cannot be stopped by a .380? Sure. Then again, the same attackers might not be stopped by blasts from one of my 12ga shotguns.

You really want to think long and hard about what part of the threats you will likely try to repel with force would be stopped by gun A and not by gun B, keeping in mind the odds of having either gun at hand, how well you shoot it, how reliable it is, and so on.

If you live in the woods, and rapid bears and crazy tweakers are real literal threats, you most likely want 'bigger guns' at hand.

If your main issue is punk teenagers (who have been amazingly lethal in Seattle lately) or muggers, then always having a gun that works when you are set upon is really key. Note that you may not have to actually fire it, merely persuade the attacker you WILL fire it.

Given all of the above, I think the issues are "how much do people practice" and "how reliable are the guns and their holsters, magazines, and ammunition".

zombienerd
December 10, 2008, 01:43 AM
380 is enough to kill. Box-o-truth covered it... With JHP it passed through 4 jugs of water, more than enough for a heart shot. The FMJ went through 5 jugs.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot26_2.htm

380 is great in my book.

earlthegoat2
December 10, 2008, 08:11 AM
Im sure theres tons of people and supposed experts who have covered it and drawn conclusions one way or another from it. the real deal is do I want someone who got a CCW just so they could carry a tiny gun in their hip pocket and actually have an honest chance of stopping an attack with no training.

tinygnat219
December 10, 2008, 08:25 AM
I put it down to a couple of reasons: Price and size. These are simply convenient to carry.

Boba Fett
December 10, 2008, 12:04 PM
the real deal is do I want someone who got a CCW just so they could carry a tiny gun in their hip pocket and actually have an honest chance of stopping an attack with no training.

As opposed to an untrained AND unlicensed person? :scrutiny:


People get a CCW so they can legally...are you paying attention...CARRY CONCEALED WEAPONS. As opposed to not carrying a firearm at all.

Yes, they have an honest chance of stopping someone. Are they going to stop them SWAT style, two to the chest one to the head? No. And neither are most of us who actually practice at a range.


Remember that to carry, you have to pass the shooting portion of the class.

In the end, a person who has gone through CCW training and has a pistol and not practiced since then (except to renew their CCW perhaps) will have a better chance than someone who has no weapon at all.

Again, remember that most conflicts are close range. Point and shoot will probably suffice. And as others have pointed out, a mousegun will fill the role well enough.

Marlin 45 carbine
December 10, 2008, 12:15 PM
I replace a PPK/S .380acp with a Makarov 9X18 due to better fit of my large hands (the Walther was beating my thumb knuckle up w/the slide makeing it hard to practice with) a side + is the Mak chambering is a little more potent.
as some here I carry a .32acp and spare mag when lightly dressed, I practice w/it 3-4 times a year.

Zebulon
December 10, 2008, 06:34 PM
I've been a handgunner of sorts for about 22 years. I've read literally thousands of opinions concerning calibers and stopping power, as have most of you. I love some of the guns chambered for the .380...have a pair of Beretta 84's right now and have owned Sig 230's, Sphinx 380M's, and am considering a PPK/S as I write. I was also introduced into the handgun fraternity at the very beginning of the WonderNine wars of the late 80's-Eraly 90's when there were great guns available in single stack configurations and great Wheelguns, that languished on the Gunstore shelves for long periods of time because the American mindset became more is better.
I love 9mm...another target of Gunstore Pistoleros. Maybe it just takes more bullet to stop an American attacker than other attackers.
Despite reading all the opinions and studies available over the last 20 years, I'm convinced that there is NO one solution, and that each and every shooting incident stands alone. I personally know a man who took 3 .45 hits to the head and was found wandering on a back raod outside Wichita Falls, Texas, and lived both to tell about it and party with my friends and I in 1966. His short term memory and some fine motor skills were somewhat effected, but he lives on.
I've also read the reports of those who were hit with .22 longs and died as a result of "believing" they were "supposed" to die when shot...and apparently did.
There is much more involved than caliber OR shot placement. I can't tell you what it is, but there are always and ever, contradictory results in shootings. I like .380 apart from the expense of the round. I also love the .357 Sig and have no idea why...another mutt for some to kick around.....:) Zebulon

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