Dan Wesson Q

Hello Guys

I picked up an early Dan Wesson last week. I oiled it and shot it Saturday. Accuracy was all over the place at 30 yards, although sometimes I could hit three pins in a row. I took it home, detail stripped it, cleaned it thoroughly, greased it up with the new Berryhill stuff and tried it again in ernest today.

At 7 yards it would throw the first shot from the mag up about 3 to 4 inches and left a bit pretty much every time. Then it might put 3 or 4 in a tight little wad before throwing one down 2 to 3 inches and right a bit. At any time it was liable to throw a shot out of the group in another direction. Some of those could have been me.

Yes, I am capable of throwing shots with no help from the gun, but I am a fair pistol shot, I was concentrating, and it would produce these same results over and over.

Everything inside looked OK, but I am no expert. The barrel seemed locked up tight when the slide was forward. The hood of the barrel had no real movement when pushed down or sideways. The barrel seemed solidly held by the bushing up front. The crown looks good. It has a two piece full length guide rod. It will have to go. Either GI stock or one piece full length.

The good news is it fed, fired, and ejected flawlessly. 98% of the brass dropped about 4 feet to the right and a bit back. Nice.

Any ideas? I took a couple of pics. Are these sights factory? The rear one has a little slop left to right, but up and down is spring loaded and seems OK. The rear looks like Millets I have seen.

Thanks, Anthony

Given all you have said about observable quality and cleaning, what about the ammo? Brand and type?

I would next take the barrel out and use it as a headspace gauge and drop 25 round of ammo in it to see how they are fitting. Examine to see if the case mouths are nice and proud and not overly crimped, giving you inconsistent headspacing.

While the barrel is out, observe the wear marks on the top of the barrel lugs to see if they are even, of reasonable depth along the lug length, and on all lugs.

Without testing from sand bag or Ransom rest, I gotta think ammo. Even sloppiest mated barrel/slide/frame combination will shoot more consistent than that.

What's confusing me is the rounds that all the sudden group together. Normally you'd think that the norm, with some flyers, so I'd think 'shooter error'. I don't take you for an inexperienced shooter though. So then I've got to think there's some inconsistency with the ammo. Crimp/seating depth, inconsistent powder charge? Are you shooting target quality rounds? Have you chrono'd that batch of ammo? Still, velocity irregularities would have to be extreme to get the results you're describing. What bullets are you using? Poorly constructed home/lead cast? Plated? Montana Gold? WWB? Or are you shooting good Sierra's?

-Steve

Normally you'd think that the norm, with some flyers, so I'd think 'shooter error'.Hmmmm.... Understandable.

then I've got to think there's some inconsistency with the ammo.
Certainly possible.

My reloads, which shoot fine in everything else. I have a Caldwell jig sort of like the Ransom Rest. I'll chuck it up in that and give it a try. That will take me out of the equation at least. I could shoot little groups with the same ammo with a different gun the same day though.

I suppose it might not like the Hornady 115 Gr FMJ encapsulated bullets I was using, despite their shooting well in other guns. I'll load up something different and try it as well. It has me perplexed. :)

It's not a 45!

:D

Ok, if the controled shooting platform doesn't change things, I'd swap the upper to a different frame. And visa versa since you say the ammo shoots fine in other pistols. But I've got to think there's something wrong with the barrel. Have you slugged the barrel? Measurements good or is there a scratch/bur you can't see?

So, you got it used. Why did the original owner sell it?

-Steve

Barrel looks very good inside, very well made and smooth. Leade is long, but cut well and very smooth. Lands are sharp. No problems I could see, even with a bore scope. Looks like new. Crown looks very good as well.

I just finished loaded up some 125 Gr JSP Master Match bullets I bought on sale years ago. I'll try some Zeros as well. I have a .38 Super that will drill tiny groups with the #161 & #162 125 Gr Zeros, and its bore looks rough.

Why did he sell? Who knows. Always a chance with a used gun.

I loaded up some Master Match 125 Gr JSP's with the same range brass, the same powder(just less), and the same primer. I went to the range after work and shot two targets through the chronograph. Avg of 18 shots was 1176 FPS.

Both first shots from the mag were high, but after that it shot pretty well. The vertical on the first target is probably me. On the second target I put the 2nd, 3rd, & 4th shot in a little wad in the middle, then got careless and opened up the group.

I will set it up in the Caldwell jig and see what the two loads do. The erratic shots Sunday may have been me having a bad day and or getting used to the sights, or it just may not like that bullet. (I did not use my glasses either ;)) The Caldwell jig will tell it.

I have heard of autos shooting to a different POI on the first shot, but have not experienced it before. After the first two targets I "sling shotted" the slide for the first shot and although it still shot high, it cut the difference in half.

Any ideas on how to "cure" that first shot problem? Thanks, Anthony

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=88975&d=1228867674

I've read of this before. The gun scribblers call it "4+1 syndrome." The first hand-chambered round shoots to a different point of impact than the subsequent four rounds in the group, which are chambered by the normal action of the slide -i.e., running at full speed - and cluster tightly together. They also write that this tendency disappears as the gun breaks in. Let us hope so, because from the look of your targets this is a pretty extreme example. :uhoh::confused:

Any ideas on how to "cure" that first shot problem?
Yeah, shoot it into the backstop, but not through your target;) Great looking group there, AC, on the top target. Bottom one not to shabby either. Can you get a good sight picture with that rear sight? Dont look deep enough, to see the front sight dot. looks like a revolver rear sight.

I can get a decent sight picture with 1.00 power reading glasses on, but then the target is fuzzy. I actually shoot iron sights best if they are all black with a thin front sight with lots of space showing to let light through.

I think the vertical was me concentrating on the side to side. The vertical alignment is harder to judge with this set up, but not to bad. I may end up putting a Weigand mount on it so I can use a red dot, like this one (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=75000&d=1206138026).

I have to prove the gun before I spend any money on a mount or red dot sight. I would really like to cure the one shot high syndrome. It is a sweet shooter and recoil is light, even with full loads, which is good for extended shooting.

Any ideas? Barrel link? ???

Do not change the link. let the gun break in. As a high volume Dan Wesson dealer, I would say let it break in. Although not new to you, I would guess your gun has a low round count.
Changing the link will change everything else about the rest of your group, and as well as the Dan Wessons are fit, you will run into other problems.:)

I took out the full length guide rod and replaced it with an Ed Brown GI style rod and plug. I also installed a new ISMI 14 LB spring. The first shot is now only a couple of inches high. Maybe it will settle down even more as it gets some rounds on it like Chuck@AC thinks it will. Crossing my fingers. The gun is very accurate.

I can get a decent sight picture with 1.00 power reading glasses on, but then the target is fuzzy. I actually shoot iron sights best if they are all black with a thin front sight with lots of space showing to let light through.

Well, we Bullseye shooters do 'Front sight shoot', and yes, expect the target to be blury.


Other than shootin style and degrading eyes of those of us over 45, I see that the first fodder choice is the 'cold spinach' for that gun. A different bullet selection, a little less powder and maybe some more attentive shooting technique has yielded better groups. With the first shot flyer... Many will say that the FLGR is the worst thing since the Dremel tool.

How do you like that UltraDot L/T? I have one in the box. Haven't mounted it on anything yet.

Here's your goal @ 50yds. Off Hand with irons. (http://myweb.facstaff.wwu.edu/~treloas/Gunstuff/Target.jpg)

-Steve

I love the Ultra Dot L/T.

There are stories of the lenses falling out, but mine has been fine. That is a .45 it is on, so recoil has not bothered it yet.

The dot is better than cheapo dots, but not perfectly round like an Aimpoint.

I'll most likely get another one day. I also have a J-Point, and the Ultra Dot is much nicer. Better lens, better dot. Mine was fairly easy to get sighted in and has held zero.

I can shoot very good groups with it when I do my part.

7 shots at 7 yards (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=66241&d=1193514563). Believe it or not, the hole to the left is where the wind blew the target over the instant I shot the second shot. That hole is where it blew in front of the bullseye. I stapeled it and finished the other 5. I wish I could shoot like this all the time, but alas, some days I can't hit squat. A typical good target for me at 7 yards would be all in the 10 ring, sometimes with a bad one in the 9 or maybe even the 8 ring if I really screw up. This is at 7 yards of course, not very far.

That is some D*** fine shootin' at 50 yards. D*** fine. Off hand too! I can't shoot very well off hand any more.

(One handed) Well, I certainly can't do that every time. That's a practice target. I can never seem to shoot that well in a match. If I could, I'd have already been to Camp Perry for the Nationals shooting in a much higher class than I shoot now. Still, having a few of those targets that I'm proud of, gives hope. I have done it. Means that I should be able to do it again.

-Steve

Any ideas on how to "cure" that first shot problem? Pull the slide to the rear and let it pick up a round. Don't release the slide with the lever.

After the first two targets I "sling shotted" the slide for the first shot and although it still shot high, it cut the difference in half. Tried that. Thanks.