Same state rifle purchases


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bmwguy
December 8, 2008, 05:05 PM
If 2 individuals from the same state are conducting a rifle purchase, does it have to be Face to Face? The drive is about 4 hours and im trying to avoid it but want to make it legal.

If I mail the seller the money for the rifle and driver's license and conceal carry permit, is that sufficient to have the rifle directly sent to me?

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indoorsoccerfrea
December 8, 2008, 05:06 PM
i would check the rules about shipping a weapon... may have to use an FFL. i would drive the four hours. makes it a lot easier

Geneseo1911
December 8, 2008, 05:16 PM
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm

I read this as you can ship a gun in state so long as the receiver isn't prohibited. See B7. But then, I'm no expert. Also, I think FTF is often preferred to so the seller can decide if he trusts the buyer.

Sinixstar
December 8, 2008, 05:52 PM
If you want to cover yourself, most states will allow individuals to access the NICS system. Get the information from the person, do the check, and CYA.
That way - if on the off chance something were to come back to you - you have that little piece of paper that says you went "above and beyond" to make sure it was a clean transaction.

nalioth
December 8, 2008, 05:58 PM
Shipping a Gun - THR (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=323555)

The laws are linked in the above post.

As far as Texas and the feds are concerned, mailing a long gun is the same as a FTF sale. For pistols, they have to go FedEx or UPS, but can still be directly delivered to a legally eligible same-state resident.

Don't take our word for it, click the link and look at the state and federal laws yourself.

homers
December 8, 2008, 06:10 PM
Are background check required for in state private sales? If not, what's to prevent a felon from getting a gun in this manner. Is the original owner (seller) liable if selling to a person who shouldn't legally have a gun?

Sinixstar
December 8, 2008, 06:20 PM
Are background check required for in state private sales? If not, what's to prevent a felon from getting a gun in this manner. Is the original owner (seller) liable if selling to a person who shouldn't legally have a gun?


What you're talking about is what the anti's refer to as the "gunshow loophole".
There's really not anything to strictly prevent it.

Not sure if the seller is legally liable. In states where no check private party sales are allowed - I would find it to be a bit of a stretch to hold the seller responsible, absent of some sort of prior knowledge, or some sort of indicator that the buyer might not be on the up-and-up.

That's why I recommended a good game of CYA, and do the background check yourself. It's a stretch to you and I to think the seller would be Liable, but that doesn't mean someone wouldn't try to make 'em liable. Get the piece of paper and make sure that doesn't happen.

zoom6zoom
December 8, 2008, 06:21 PM
most states will allow individuals to access the NICS system.
Not sure how you'd do that. You've got to be authorized to access the system.

http://foia.fbi.gov/nics552g.htm
ACCESS CONSTRAINTS: All records in NICS are protected from unauthorized access through appropriate administrative, physical, and technical safeguards. These safeguards include restricting access to those with a need-to-know to perform their official duties, and using locks, alarm devices, passwords, and/or encrypting data communications.

USE CONSTRAINTS: Users of NICS are restricted to only those privileges necessary to perform an authorized task(s).

Sinixstar
December 8, 2008, 06:22 PM
Not sure how you'd do that. You've got to be an FFL to access the system.

You go to your local sheriff's office, tell them you're selling a gun private party, and would like to do a background check...

nalioth
December 8, 2008, 06:47 PM
You go to your local sheriff's office, tell them you're selling a gun private party, and would like to do a background check... Our local sheriff'd tell you where the exit was. It's not their job.

Sinixstar
December 8, 2008, 07:03 PM
Our local sheriff'd tell you where the exit was. It's not their job.

Well - i guess it depends on the state you're in.
pretty sure I said that right off the bat...

NavyLCDR
December 9, 2008, 02:28 AM
To the original OP, the simple answer to your question is, the seller can just mail the rifle to you via USPS within the same state, if both of you are residents of that state, assuming state law allows it.

Oro
December 9, 2008, 04:33 AM
+1 to NavyLt for cutting to the chase. Long guns are mailable by non-licensed (FFL) individuals, and within the same state you do not need an FFL transfer.

As a seller, your only legal federal obligation for a long gun transaction is to know they are of age (18 I believe) and to not have reason to believe the buyer is prohibited (felon, under a restraining order, etc.). You are not required to go pay to verify that - only to not have a reason to suspect that. Reasons to suspect it would be if they said "hey, I can't buy at a shop, so let's do a deal between you and me," or they are personally known to you as having those prohibitions. As long as he/she seems on the up and up, you are fine. States may have more restrictive laws. NC I know does, even for private transactions (sheriff's authorization), so check your VA laws but I think VA is a pretty sane state that doesn't impose any additional burdens beyond federal regs.

subknave
December 9, 2008, 10:47 AM
If you are the Seller make sure you get copies of drivers license and identification and you may want them to certify in writing that they are not prohibited etc. You could probably copy the questions from the federal form. Make sure you keep these records because if there is ever a trace on that gun it could come back to you and you would need to prove you sold it to someone and their address etc would help trace the gun down.

You can mail a long gun through the post office. If you really want to cover your ass send it to a dealer and have them pick it up from the dealer so the transaction is recorded.

I would not, as a buyer, send them your drivers license and ccw permit. Send only copies if you send the actual items you may never get them back as well as opening yourself up to identity theft.

nalioth
December 9, 2008, 12:37 PM
Long guns are mailable by non-licensed (FFL) individuals, and within the same state you do not need an FFL transfer. Handguns are also directly exchangeable between non-licensed individuals (if state / local laws allow) - you just have to use FedEx or UPS or other common carrier to do so (unlicensed individuals can't send handguns via the US Mail).

paul
December 10, 2008, 11:42 AM
Subknave...
I'm unaware of any law which requires you (or me) to prove to whom you sold a firearm...
This may be a state law in your location, but is not in mine.
If you have a link to the appropriate federal regulation, please post it.
Thanks,
p

NavyLCDR
December 11, 2008, 03:19 AM
A couple of things being discussed:

FEDEX: Their written tariff states that they will not ship firearms between individuals. One party must be an FFL, according to their written rules. This is NOT any law, just company rules.

UPS: Their written tariff states that they will ship firearms between individuals not prohibited from receiving/shipping firearms. However, their "official", from corporate headquarters, verbal policy is that they will not ship between individual parties, again one must be an FFL. I have numerous times pointed out the difference between what their written policy states and what corporate headquarters says, but to no avail.

As far as the identitiy of the person you are selling it to: Federal law states that you must NOT know or have reasonable belief that the buyer is not a same state resident, or otherwise prohibited from possessing the firearm. You don't have to PROVE any of that, just not have knowledge of or reasonable belief of.... it would be up to the prosecutor to prove that you had knowledge or belief of.

18 USC 922:
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer,
sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person
(other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed
dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has
reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is
a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of
business in) the State in which the transferor resides;

and

(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose
of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable
cause to believe that such person--
(1) is under indictment for, .... blah blah blah

paul
December 11, 2008, 02:10 PM
Thank you Navy LT, for making my point.
p

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