[smithwesson9090]

Hey guys, I've kept debatin on whether to put this on here or not...there is some explicit language from my buddy who gets a little too pumped up. So click at your own discretion. We were usin his bat action-ed 45 caliber smokeless muzzleloader...yes, you read that right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH7hGG6TvVg

sorry for the horrible video work, we're amateurs with video equipment

[zombienerd]

Awesome shot! Looks like he hit the spine :P

[janobles14]

dang! details! what bullet? what powder charge? what friggin lens were you using on that camera at 528 yds?

[davec921]

neat shot. If you watch the vid close you can see the bullet create a shimmer in the air.
Really neat. Just look up at the top portion of the screen closley an you can see it.
Nice shot

[smithwesson9090]

thanks! we gave it just a little too much elevation. be on the look-out for a 700 yard + muzzleloader kill if all the conditions are right. the video will be much better next time.

[351 WINCHESTER]

No way was that 528 yds. with a m/l. Not enough delay from time of shot till impact. I didn't care for his foul language either.

[smithwesson9090]

haha...351 winchester! i knew there would be a few like you chime in. you were warned about the language...before you "know it all" do a little research on smokeless muzzleloaders...then you can come back and apologize on the shot timing. you guys can look at richards custom rifles website and get a pretty good idea of what load we were shootin. im not too crazy about postin "loads"

we were using my dad's camera...not real sure on the brand...jvc, MAYBE...not sure...it has 1000x digital zoom...which is why the video isn't that great in quality.

i'll try to get some pix of the gun tomorrow and give you guys all the information on the gun. thanks for the interest!

[janobles14]

load data man! load data!

[Harve Curry]

Good shooting, you know your rifle. Goes to show you what can be done if you cannot get brass cases one day but still have the modern muzzleloader.
A couple of years ago I guided a handi- cap hunter from California to a bull elk in his bed, he was in a steep canyon surrounded by cow elk. No way to get close. Three days before we had discussed this same situation, and had him practice out to 300 yards with a TC 50 cal using Pyrodex. He knew the hold and shot that bull in it's bed and it never got up. 200 yard zero, it dropped 26 inches at 300 yards. At 306 yards laser measured he held a foot high over the back. Found the bullet in the dirt. Sorry I don't have a video of it.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

What kind of optics used? I too am a bit skeptical, but admit its conceivably possible - looked like a looong ways when the camera panned back.

[Davek1977]

I'd be more impressed had it been on paper instead of a living animal. Don't get me wrong...I'm an avid hunter...but see no reason to "see" if you can kill a deer at 500 plus yards with a blackpowder rifle. I'm more impressed with the hunter that stalks within 25 ft of his quarry than I am with someone who needs to shoot at 500 yds plus....but thats just me. If we all agreed all the time, the world would be a damn boring place

[Bearhands]

"Video no longer available"

[UKCPO]

EDIT

[smithwesson9090]

ok guys...here's some info...

was shootin a
bat sv action with a 30" krieger with a 1 in 20 twist
shehane tracker II stock with a jewell bottom safety trigger
leupold 4.5-14x40 long range 30 mm tube with the varmint hunters reticle

My buddy built the gun...not Richard...He did a few things differently...I just sent ya to Richard's to get an idea about the loads and a little information on smokeless muzzleloaders.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

This is pretty darned cool, don't get me wrong, but is there a reason WHY build a muzzleloader like that, rather than a regular centerfire? I'm speculating that it's maybe a shotgun/muzzleloader only state?

[Harve Curry]

So what is a bat sv action?
Are you shooting 40cal bullets in a 45 caliber sabot?
What ignition and powder charge? Muzzle velocity?

The video was good up to the shot, I'd delete/edit the rest of it.

[gvnwst]

but is there a reason WHY build a muzzleloader like that

Maybe to prove that they can be LR guns too? That would be fun to me.

Nice shot.

[smithwesson9090]

www.batmachine.com

we're shootin 45 caliber bullets that have been swedged (swadged) however u spell it...we're shooting them directly on the lands.

to whomever was asking about the meat...tenderloin is turned into "steaks"...everything else is made into jerky...no wasting here.

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

6" further back, and the tenderloin would have been mush!

-Steve

[smithwesson9090]

We're from WV...but my buddy hunts in other states where you got shotgun/muzzleloader and wants every advantage you can get...and the muzzleloaders are just plain fun! He builds custom rifles too, I shot one at 525 with his custom 7mm stw a while back...sorry no video. It was nice breaking that record with a muzzleloader.

I love gettin close also...We're bowhunters too. Trust me, if the conditions aren't right and if we don't believe we can make the shot...we won't take it. The last thing I want is a wounded animal, whether it be a deer, groundhog, coyote, whatever! I know many will think that this long range stuff is not ethical, not fair, etc... You are all entitled to your opinion and I appreciate the interest.

P.S. For some of you guys wanting to get into the smokeless muzzleloaders...the Savage would be a good one to start with for 450-650 or so.

[cpttango30]

Might have been better if you would have killed the deer quickly.

Maybe insted of jumping around like a couple of jackazzes cussin you could have been reloading and taking another shot to provide a CLEAN KILL.

I thought this was THE HIGH ROAD. not the lets shoot out of our effective range and wound an animal then get all happy and cuss.

[Vicious-Peanut]

Not impressed. The deer crawled around for several minutes, its actually sad. You took a shot that was beyond the range you should have and the deer suffered so you could look 'cool' in front of your sailor-mouthed buddy? Get within 200 yards next time and take a good shot.

[Sinixstar]

Maybe insted of jumping around like a couple of jackazzes cussin you could have been reloading and taking another shot to provide a CLEAN KILL.


Yea - sorry - but "that's how the big boys do it" is pretty assinine when you've got a paralyzed deer scrambling around with it's front legs only. That was nowhere NEAR a clean kill. You want to see if you can make a long shot, do it at the range - where this might not have even been on the paper.

[ZRX61]

That was pretty lame. Bad juju...

[sbarkowski]

I'm sorry I dont get it. Forgive my ignorance as I am not a seasoned hunter by any means. But if you shoot an animal with a bow and its fataly wounded and it runs for a hundred yards and finally dies or you shoot one with a rifle and its not DRT and runs. How is this any different? Some say its unethical because its a muzzel loader and thats far beyond its range. Well, not from what I saw. Unethical to me is knowingly taking a shot far beyond your skill level. So my question to the shooter is, have you ever practiced at such a great distance before taking this shot or did you just take this shot on a whim hoping for the best? Because if that be the case, I'd have to agree with the others in saying you had no right attempting it. If not, I'd like to see it done again on a non living target.

[cpttango30]

Unethical to me is knowingly taking a shot far beyond your skill level.

did you watch the animal thrash around IN PAIN why they jumped around like a bunch of girls at a football game?

That is not a clean kill in anyones book.

I don't like bow hunting either. That is just me.

The muzzle loader was a well made rifle it was not your typical $200 Gander Mtn Special it was a custom made SMOKELESS muzzle loader capable of more velocity and accuracy than others. That is about the only thing they did right.

[sbarkowski]

Im getting confused. Are we talking about taking the shot being unethical or the lack of respect and the behaviour exhibited by the hunters after the shot?

[.38 Special]

Don't forget to put up the video when you guys make an even worse shot and the animal runs off to die a miserable death over the course of several days. That should be a real hoot.

[WardenWolf]

People who say he shouldn't have just let it thrash around need to remember one thing: it IS a muzzleloader. It takes TIME to reload it. And it takes time to set up a shot like that. And it also is really hard to hit the deer again when it's thrashing around on the ground. And guaranteed it was a precision load, not a quick and dirty speed load. Replicating it would take some time.

It's a conundrum in a case like that: if you shoot it again, you're almost guaranteed to ruin the meat. However, it's suffering in the mean time. So while I certainly can forgive you for not shooting it again at that range, I do think you could have done it a bit better.

I believe you should have started running the moment you hit it, gotten close enough, and finished it off. Not stood laughing and cheering. A brief cheer is okay, though. You made an incredible shot, and I'm not going to fault you for taking it. In the future, however, you need to be prepared for such a possibility and be prepared to take off running.

I don't like bow hunting either. That is just me.

As for people who are against archery hunting, I've seen a video where someone shot a good-sized black bear, and the bear instantly dropped. Perfect dead right there shot. Frankly, if it's even possible to instadrop a bear, I have no problems with it. That's rare enough even with a rifle. I also have a cousin who's big on archery hunting, and he's very good with it. He's scored some incredible kills.

The way I look at it, bowhunting is just another level of skill. It's what many really good hunters do when the thrill is gone from using rifles. So they take it to the next level, and switch to a form of hunting that requires a lot more personal skill. It's a way of becoming even better and keeping it interesting. Rifle hunters come in all types, but successful bow hunters are like ghosts. Muzzleloading is the same idea, but to a lesser extent and in a different direction. It's a way of testing yourself, of taking your skills to the next level.

[paintballdude902]

i just have to say that 1 not impressed witht he deer scrambling the first deer i ever shot was my only iffy shot and it hit the spin and dropped that was at 175yards with a .30-30 sighted for 100

2 im not a opposed to taking long range shots if that is the only way to do it, like her some times so many people use dogs you cant stalk much without the dogs catching up to you and chasing the deer,but i see no reason why the shot had to be at 575 or what ever when you easily could have cut that distance down to 250 or less

3 id atleast recomend cutting the video right after the deer was shot so we didnt have to watch it squirm

[cpttango30]

As for people who are against archery hunting, I've seen a video where someone shot a good-sized black bear, and the bear instantly dropped. Perfect dead right there shot. Frankly, if it's even possible to instadrop a bear, I have no problems with it. That's rare enough even with a rifle. I also have a cousin who's big on archery hunting, and he's very good with it. He's scored some incredible kills.

I myself don't like archery hunting. But I have seen plenty of of bow shots that dropped the animal in it's tracks or within 15 to 20 yards.

I am sorry this is a case of "Hold my beer and watch this."

I would not be to upset about it if I would have heard Holy Sh*& hurry lets reload. I don't like seeing that or oh holy sheet i made a bad shot.

Something other than what they were doing.

[halfacop]

It is beyound me how people can sit here and say that bowhunting is not for them.....As in they feel it is unethical to hunt game that way....

I have shot close to a dozen animals with a bow and have never had one go over 50 yrds before they expired....Thats 50 yrds on a dead run, which a deer covers in mere seconds!

I shot a coyote over this last weekend and that gal didn't go 15 yrds.

How many gun hunters can say that? I would hope to have such a quick death when it comes my time to die.......

If you, as a gun hunter, have issues with animals not being DRT after the shot - then you should all be practicing getting super close to your game and taking head shots.....

That is about the only guarantee that you can get to a instant kill.

Whats more ethical....Hitting a deer 1-2 times with a long gun as it runs off or a well placed shot from a razor sharp arrow that leaves them with a mere sensation before they expire with in yrds?

Don't get me wrong - I am not for the hoorah and waiting around for a animal to expire after a shot didn't quite do its job - but I am also willing to keep it in perspective and can see that getting a follow up shot on this animal would not be the easiest thing to get.....

[smithwesson9090]

cpttango30...i won't even bother with you

I'm glad how a lot of you are "judging" me...saying I did it to look cool? The deer was crawling around for several minutes?? The video is not even several minutes long...so now we have a lot of people jumping to conclusions. People are thinking we guessed the shot...Once again, jumping to conclusions. You can hear me say in the video...that she's flopping around to check and see if I needed to shoot again. Once again...people jumping to conclusions. You are talking about our skills and our
lack of ethics when you have know idea who we are. Heck, since I don't give a damn; I shoulda just shot when the others were behind her since I'm a "hold my beer while I shoot" type of guy! Then I coulda bragged on hittin 2 with one shot. Please!! If we weren't serious about long range shooting...we would be doin some spray n' pray with an old 30-30 or an ar-15.

I could have faked everything and stopped the video right when the deer dropped, but that is not the TRUTH. That is not what happens
on all hunting shots. Every REAL hunter knows that. I'm glad there's some bowhunters here that know what's up and understand the shot. Did you hear me raising hell in the video? My buddy got overexcited and did some cursing and I should have cut that out.

To all the people who appreciated the shot and understand long range shooting or are interested in it...thank you. For all the jealous or "think every animal should die right at the shots impact" I'm sorry for offending you.

[sbarkowski]

That's really all I personally wanted to hear. Despite what other's might think I know not many ppl could make a shot like that. Was the deer dead when you got to it?

[Harve Curry]

smithwesson9090 ,
I was looking at your web site and can see that your making some strong actions for centerfire. I'd like to learn more about your muzzleloader, can you post any pic's of it, the loads and other details?

[smithwesson9090]

No sir, there was a finish shot made. We weren't proud of the language...We could have took the route a lot of "others" do and stopped it right when she dropped. That is not the truth...any real hunter will know that. I posted a REAL hunting video. We're not proud of the language...as soon as I sharpen up my video editing skills...that part will be cut out. The truth will still be shown, but the language will be taken off. It was just a lot of over-excitement during an exciting time. This isn't the first long-range shot we've made and it won't be the last long range shot we make. We know the gun is capable on paper and know it's capable on game. Thanks!

[zombienerd]

For all the people claiming it was a bad shot:

Question: What's the difference between a deer having it's spine separated and thrashing on the ground until it bleeds out, or getting hit through the neck and running 75 yards before dying of loss of blood?

Answer: The first one doesn't actually make you walk further.

You can't get holier than thou over a "bad" shot. I think the shot was pretty @#$% impressive. Animals suffer all the time, we eat them, that's their purpose... Ethics does not belong in hunting. If I want to jump out of a tree onto a deer's back and bludgeon it's head with a dull object slowly killing it, that's my prerogative. If I wanted to Muay Thai a boar to break it's ribs (lol), that's my prerogative.

Foul language might not be some people's cup of tea, but he DID warn you before hand, so you can't complain about the language.

In my book, that was a good kill.. The meat's all still there, and he didn't have to track it down, that's a perfect shot in my book.

Then again, I hunt for food, not for sport, I don't care if the animal feels pain, I don't care if it's crying to it's mother, it's going on my table.

[Loyalist Dave]

Can you tell us how the range was determined? Range finder or paced off, or something else?

LD

[moi_self26]

Personally, I'm not a hunter...... I don't think I ever could be a hunter (unless it were immediately necessary to survival). I don't like hunting, I don't like the idea of shooting a living thing that isn't immediately endangering me. I eat meat, but I enjoy the bliss in ignorance of not having to see my food alive. I also will not begrudge someone who does hunt, all the power to you. Please don't take my words as an attack on you, because I honestly respect your right to do so, it just isn't for me.

Animals are not humans, they do not have rights. Yes, I think it's great to be respectful and TRY to ensure that they suffer as little as possible...... had this guy shot him from far away, ran over, and proceeded to stab the deer over and over for kicks and giggles, I'd think he was an azz, but that's not what happened.

I think all of the criticism about it being an "unclean kill" is one step below PETA and other groups trying to take away your rights to hunt. You kill animals too, you cause pain to animals too, amount of suffering is all semantics. If you want others to respect your right to hunt, acknowledging some level of rights on the animal's part seems counterproductive. I don't think this guy was trying to cause undo pain.

[rbernie]

think all of the criticism about it being an "unclean kill" is one step below PETA and other groups trying to take away your rights to hunt. You kill animals too, you cause pain to animals too, amount of suffering is all semantics. I concur. Anyone who's not a complete vegan needs to grasp this.

Having said that - I personally find this kind of LD hunting to be, well, less about hunting than it is about SHOOTING. Hunting, at least to me, implies some fieldcraft be used other than just mastering the usage of the tool itself.

Mastering the tool is shooting. Mastering the craft of harvesting game with the highest probablility of success is hunting. I think that it was Jeff Cooper who one opined that the sheer fact that you CAN do something does not necessarily mean that you SHOULD.

But that's just my opinion and I would never tell ANYONE that they are immoral or wrong for what I saw in that video.

[sbarkowski]

About the pain thing. It looked like the shot severed the spine and it was paralized from that point back. I asked a friend of mine who is a pramedic and she says most of the accidents she has had to deal with involving a severed spinal cord where the person was still alive they reported feeling nothing except fear and they were numb from that point down and did not feel pain in the remaining parts of the body that still had feeling unless one of those parts were also injured. Now I'm not the deer nor have I never had such an injury so I cant say wether or not it felt anything besides fear and confusion as to why its back legs wouldnt work. Just something to consider.

[Sinixstar]

Having hunted ML (which is actually my favorite) and bow - i understand exactly what goes into it. Frankly - that's exactly why i'm a little less then impressed.
The middle of the spine is a crap shot - at any range. Would you have posted the same video, and been just as proud if it was a gut shot? Cause, a few inches lower - and from what it looks like on the video - you would have never found it.

As for "you would have ruined meat" - it kinda comes with the territory. Not sure if anyone was aware of this - but that's the nature of guns in general. Cause massive trauma to tissues and organs. If you don't want to damage tissue/organs - don't use a gun.

[Sinixstar]

A big part of the ethics thing, and the issue of a "clean kill" - is a matter of minimizing the risk of a nasty shot that causes you to kill the animal, but never find it.

Taking a shot on the heart/lungs area gives you some leeway so if you're not exactly perfect with bullet placement - you're still going to kill the animal in pretty short order. It gives you a larger target. Taking a headshot is a bad idea because if you're off a little bit - you're likely to injure but not kill the animal (not immediately). Hitting it in the nose, the jaw, the windpipe, etc. All of which could still cause death - but not for many days.
Same thing goes with a spine shot. You miss, you're much more likely to cause an injury that is not immediately lethal. Gut shots - same thing.
In any case you'll kill it - but good luck finding it.

That's where the ethics thing comes in. There's a big difference between a deer running 30-40-50 yards or even 3-4-500 yards and being tracked and actually harvested, and a deer wondering around for a day or two with a gut shot - never to be found.

[Vicious-Peanut]

I never called him evil or anything of the sort. I said he shouldn't have taken an unnecessarily long shot just to prove he could. If you had been closer you could have provided a second shot before you had to walk 500 yards to the animal.

To people claiming that because you want to see an animal not run for than 100 yards (what I consider a quick kill) you are barely any better than PETA, I abhor PETA. I'm just of the opinion that if your going to hunt (which I do) then you owe it to the animal to kill it quickly.

In the end you made a long shot that I wouldn't have attempted, but you did and you made it, congratulations. I shouldn't have stirred you up so much.

[sbarkowski]

Sorry I've been blabbering alot in this post (I'm at work and our internet use is restricted for most sites not work related, but for some reason I can get on here so I'm on pretty much 40hrs a week :P) but a while back I recall seeing a deer shot in the head with an arrow on youtube. It just continued to walk and scramble in circles and did not go down. To make it worse the uh.."hunters" broke out laughing and did nothing to end it. Now that was hard to watch. Why they ever posted that video is beyond me. Little off topic but if you want to see disgusting unethical behaviour its about the worse I've seen.

[gladi8tr]

These new modern muzzleloaders take all the fun and sport out of muzzle loading. You might as well be hunting modern with smokless power and all that bull crap. I stopped muzzleload hunting when they started mounting scopes to em. Im not suprised about the shot he took he has all the right equipmet to make the shot. With all the technology my 4 year old could have made the shot.

[JimmAr]

Theres lots of "new" hunters and people who spend very little on a piece of glass and lose their zero just by storing their rifle for long periods of time or just hiking roughly around the woods, these people still take shots on animals.. very few to none in that situation make "clean kills" repeated shots cant always be taken..by amateurs or in this case a muzzle loader from 500+

Yes there are people who should take repeat shots and dont by choice... that is when its "disgusting" perfect example..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZAHXn71CUc

Examples of losing zero..or no practice with a new ammunition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiq8uVMTaBY

[BullsEye10x]

Nice shot! I don't see how it could have been much cleaner. Earlier this year, I shot a hog dead center in the chest with a 30-06 from 75 yards away, and she still tried to get up and run several times... Game animals take time to bleed out and expire just like any other living thing. The only quicker kill than a spine/heart/lung hit is in the brain pan, but I don't know too many guys who aim there... If you can't stomach watching things die, then you really shouldn't be hunting.

[MDMadrid]

Many of you who posted on this thread are NUTS... the percentage of DRT is very low no matter what you are shooting.

For those who don't like bow hunting...what would be more painful...a blunt object ripping through flesh and muscle or an extremely sharp blade slicing flesh and muscle? Have you ever been cut with a razor? It doesn't hurt much, but it bleeds like crazy. An Arrow is by far less painful than a bullet!

The guy made a good shot...just congratulate him and move on! sheesh

[smithwesson9090]

Hey, thanks a lot guys! Finally some real HUNTERS chime in lol. I appreciate it. I never posted this to brag or to start trouble. I just thought it would be interesting to a lot of you and something a little different for ya to watch.

[.38 Special]

Takes some real chutzpa to shoot a deer with a single shot rifle, wound it, let it flop around while laughing and cheering, then get bent when people start talking about ethics. And to top it off, then claim that anyone who doesn't slap you on the back about it isn't a "real" hunter.

Here's a clue: "real" hunters do what they can to ensure a clean kill, and when they can't manage a clean kill the first time around, they are prepared to fix the problem right away. "Real" hunters are disgusted by long range stunts and hunters that don't have the ability or desire to fix their own mistakes.

[Nathanael_Greene]

I'm no physicist, but I don't believe that shot was anything close to 528 yards. 528 yards is exactly .3 miles, and the zoom-out at the end of the video doesn't look nearly that far. 528 feet, maybe.

From what I understand of muzzleloader velocities, the bullet should take over a second to travel 528 yards, and it doesn't appear to take that long on the video.

Again, I'm no expert, but I'm skeptical.

In any event, that's not a hit that I'd brag about.

[smithwesson9090]

528 feet...you just showed your ignorance...learn about smokeless muzzleloaders my friend and show me where I bragged about my shot and when I asked anyone to pat me on the back...I'm done with the people who think they know what happened and like to judge people. Thanks!

[Sinixstar]

LOL - it's definitely more then 528 feet - but i'm skeptical of 528 yards as well. Bullet seemed to get there in an awful big hurry.
528yds = 1584ft. To get there in even half a second - you gotta have some pretty decent zip out of the muzzle. Not saying it's impossible - just, wow.
I imagine the recoil on that would be pretty fun too.

[smithwesson9090]

These muzzleloaders send a 275 grain bullet at 3000 fps. The gun is over 12 pounds and recoil is still pretty serious...but not intolerable. I don't think our Leica's lied to us...528 yards it was.

[Harve Curry]

That is moving, similar to the 30-338 cartridge!
Does it have a muzzle break, what powder and charge. I find these real interesting. Without the case is there any chamber errrosion?
I have used others Savage with IMR 4227 I think was the powder they were using on a elk hunt. But nothing like what you are doing.

[Clint C]

That shot would not of hurt the tenderloins. The tenderloins are about 12 inches back and about 6 inches down. It may have hurt the backstrap (called the loin by some).

Good shooting, trying to hit anything at that range would be tough with a blackpowder rifle. IMO

I think you guys were alittle disrespectful with your language (calling a dieing deer a b^%$h is not cool) Also my opinion.

Overall you guys took a deer at a great distance, and what makes it even greater is you did it with a blackpowder rifle. 528 yard shot is hard for many even with a high power rifle.

[Clint C]

just to ad another thing here. I went to a gun show in Des Moines about three weeks ago.

There was a guy there that had a blackpowder rifle there and this thing was about five or six feet long. the barrel was about 2-1/2 to 3 inches round.

I am trying to think how many grains of powder he said he could put in it, and I want to say it is like 400 grains or something like that. I could be wrong.
You could also put barrel wieghts on it.

The thing looked like a monster.

[smithwesson9090]

My buddy didn't like the way he came off on the video...he wants it edited out. He gets really pumped up and excited...as you can see, he mis-pronounced smoked lol!

Harve, No, it don't have a muzzlebrake...not really necessary as heavy as the gun is and it's got a good stock and recoil pad on it. The lighter ones will definitely need a recoil pad lol. No problems with any errosion.

The savages are awesome guns for the $. I have shot several 5/8" groups at a 100 yards with them with very little load work. As far as the loads, it's no secret, I just don't really want to list what we shoot in fear of someone else trying it and anything bad happening. You can go to richards custom guns and read some more about them and get some load information.

I believe the smokeless muzzleloaders are really going to take off soon. I know I'm going to have my own built by this summer for groundhogs. The accuracy of these guns are almost unbelievable. I know I promised pics of the gun and I will get them when I get in touch with my buddy this weekend or early next week.

[BrandonBowers]

Nice shot and that animal was dead and not going anywhere.

As far as the clean kill crowd, any of you eating pork, chicken or beef should do some research on factory farming. The videos alone will chill your blood.

Oh yeah, here's one: http://www.truveo.com/Meet-Your-Meat/id/3668059033

Hope you have a strong stomach.

That deer suffered less than most domestics. And yes I eat meat everyday. I'll just accept that human consumption requires the death of animals be at peace with it.

smithandwesson, don't mean to hijack your thread but the comments here about your hunting style are pretty dang hypocritical unless these guys are pure vegans.

Please convey my congrats and admiration of his shooting skill to your friend's son.

[.38 Special]

I'll just accept that human consumption requires the death of animals be at peace with it.

Taking a risky and totally unnecessary long-range shot at an animal for kicks and then laughing while it suffers is a scummy thing to do no matter how you rationalize it.

[Girodin]

Might have been better if you would have killed the deer quickly.

Maybe insted of jumping around like a couple of jackazzes cussin you could have been reloading and taking another shot to provide a CLEAN KILL.

I thought this was THE HIGH ROAD. not the lets shoot out of our effective range and wound an animal then get all happy and cuss.

+1


Many of you who posted on this thread are NUTS... the percentage of DRT is very low no matter what you are shooting.


DRT is not the standard of ethical hunting. Doing everything you can to make a clean kill is. Taking a long shot just for the sake of taking it does not meet that standard, no matter how one wants to spin it.

Have I killed animals that DRT? Yes. Have I wounded animals despite my best efforts to kill them cleanly? Yes, but rather than jump around like an idiot, cussing up a storm in celebration of wounding an animal, because I'm an inarticulate twit, (although one that is very ashamed of my language despite posting it for the whole world to see and then drawing attention to it) I dispatched of said animal as quickly as possible.

For me it is not an issue of the results. I know of similar results from high powered center fire rifles at ranges that were a fraction of the range of the shot being discussed. The issues, for me, are the effort to make a clean kill and the respect shown to the game animal. That is an impressive shot, not an impressive display of hunting.

Finally some real HUNTERS chime in lol.

So now a real hunter is someone who condones unethical shots and pushing the limits of equipment and skill on game animals. Interesting. Or is a real hunter simply someone who is congratulatory in response to your video? In any case, my concern is with being an ethical hunter not meeting an arbitrary definition of real hunter.

I never posted this to brag

Really?

I just thought it would be interesting to a lot of you and something a little different for ya to watch.

I suppose different is an apt adjective.

Overall you guys took a deer at a great distance, and what makes it even greater is you did it with a blackpowder rifle.

Do people even bother to read the posts? Seriously there are a several posts pointing out that it was a smokeless muzzle loader, not a black powder weapon. Are you aware of the difference?

smithandwesson, don't mean to hijack your thread but the comments here about your hunting style are pretty dang hypocritical unless these guys are pure vegans.

I suggest you look up the term false dichotomy. That is what the glaring flaw in your argument is called (one of them anyways). There are multiple positions between pure vegan and eating meat from a factory farm. People who eat free range meet, eggs, etc. come to mind.

Further, your argument presumes that those people eating factory farm meat were aware of the conditions of the animals, in as much as the point at issue is the fact that it is unethical to not do what one knows is possible to mitigate an animals suffering. If you contend that knowledge is not requisite then your argument is resting on a gross equivocation of two unequal actions.

Lastly, even hypocrisy by the accuser is not a real defense for unethical action. The ethics of that shot must be judged on its own merits. If I stand up from my computer and go torture a kitten I might be worse than the OP, but it in no way negates the legitimacy of my contention that his shot doesn't meet the common standards of ethical hunting.

Keep trying to rationalize but remember they are just that rational lies (well in the case of many of these posts, they really are not even rational).

Good shooting, very poor hunting.

[JimmAr]

So now a real hunter is someone who condones unethical shots and pushing the limits of equipment and skill on game animals.

Girodin,

With all do respect when I posted talking about "unethical shots" it was only the truth.. I understand your moral compass for being ethical towards animals but what I mentioned teaching new hunters or young ones to hunt isnt always something that can be done with patients and carefully conceived although it should..most of the time it doesnt..few children have patients as few new hunters have good guidance.

Believe as you will or want however.. the American hunter is a human being who no longer hunts on a hungry stomach but for sport, few hunt for survival.

[Clint C]

I don't hunt with a muzzleloader, but many in my family do. I thought smokeless powder was a fancy blackpowder. I did not know there was such a big differnce.

Besides that I said he was using a blackpowder RIFLE. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about here, but can't you use smokeless powder in a Blackpowder rifle.:D


Now that I have apologized can I have my head back?LOL

Sorry to get off track.

[sbarkowski]

Good lord.. Now I remember why I stopped contributing to forums. This battle is going to go on forever. Plus all the big words I cant pronounce are making my head spin. Do ppl actually talk like this in real everyday conversation??

[smithwesson9090]

i got bored after readin the first 2 lines of girodin's post...thanks for your time though.

[achildofthesky]

I enjoyed the vid and BTW nice shot at extreme range and could care less about the language. I sound worse getting a splinter and you DID warn on language and content. Ignore the naysayers and gottabaDRTforme types.

Enjoy the vittles
Patty

[rswartsell]

Well, the name of the forum is "The High Road". Might be a clue that many posters here don't shoot for the lowest common denominator. If you want to prove impressive results with your custom made, and "push the limits" you don't need live game to do so. We could appreciate your innovation, craftsmanship, or marksmanship as well on paper.

Don't get your nose out of joint when you clearly knew that this wasn't "The High Road" and you get called on it. There are many outlets for "pushing the envelope" besides here.

[Girodin]

i got bored after readin the first 2 lines of girodin's post...thanks for your time though.

Why does that not really surprise me? It would seem you are not only a gentleman but a scholar as well.

Based on a quick perusing your posts I will try to write it out in a way you might be more comfortable with. ya done took a sh*% shot at that there critter and I cant reckon why ya and bubba did post it on yur 'puters for all of them people to see.

The literate adults can read my other post. That is who it was intended for anyways. Your actions and comments already had me convinced you were beyond hope. I do thank you for posting a video I will likely have to refute in my efforts to preserve hunting privileges that are under constant attack by the antis. I'm sure they love videos of vulgar celebrations of wounded animals. Think about how many hunters took issue with it. How is that going to play to the general public?

Believe as you will or want however.. the American hunter is a human being who no longer hunts on a hungry stomach but for sport, few hunt for survival.

I agree 100%. The fact that most are hunting not for survival but in essence for entertainment (not withstanding the other benefits of hunting) is all the more reason to do what is possible to assure clean kills. I could understand pushing the envelope on a shot if it might mean the difference between one's family going hungry or not. As we both know that is very rarely the case for hunters today.

Clint C,

I'm the one who needs to apologize. My response to an understandable misunderstanding was very out of line and I hope you will forgive me for it.

[barnetmill]

This post is not of high interest. During the civil war non-metallic cartridge rifles including the sharps (used paper cartridges at that time) and high quality muzzle loaders were used for sniping. I am positive that some of the kills made with these rifles were in excess of 500 yards. So what is the big deal of killing a deer at long range with a smokeless power muzzle loader. Target shooting in the 19th century was often conducted with muzzle loaders to ranges of a 1000 yards.

[Loyalist Dave]

I don't think our Leica's lied to us...528 yards it was. Your camera has a range finder? That's how you figured the range? Cool.

LD

[~z]

Dave, Leica makes some dang nice range finders AND some dang nice cameras but I dont think they have put them together into one unit...yet
~z

[cpttango30]

Definition of IDIOT: When you post a video of you and your buddy wounding a deer and cussing (Which really doesn't bother me my mouth would make a sailor blush) then getting torqued off when people start baggin on you.

[.38 Special]

I doubt there are very many people here who are genuinely upset over the language. Few if any of us are unfamiliar with it. It's just that it was a sorry substitute for actually doing something about the deer flopping around in the background.

[smithwesson9090]

Hey guys, gonna start a new thread in the rifle thread with a few pics of the muzzleloader in a few minutes!

[stiab]

During the civil war non-metallic cartridge rifles including the sharps (used paper cartridges at that time) and high quality muzzle loaders were used for sniping. I am positive that some of the kills made with these rifles were in excess of 500 yards.
True, and they hit targets smaller than a deer. If ever at Gettysburg look at the huge collection of rifles left behind when both sides abandoned the battlefield, and you will see long barrels as big around as a tennis ball, with or without telescopic sights. It's been done before.

[doctorxring]

.


"Hold it in the center of the body"

These guys are hacks.

This is not ethical and is a slight on sportsmanship.
They should be ashamed instead of high-fiving each
other like they achieved something. If you are hungry
and hunting to live that's one thing, but these guys are
just taking a pot shot at this doe like they would shoot
at a rock on a cliff.

He hit her "in the center of the body" where he aimed. Just a few
inches lower and this animal would have been gut shot. With
the trajectory of a muzzle loader he is lucky to have hit the animal
at all. Too bad he didn't miss.

I'll use the words they used back at them...

<.............>



That's how I see it. I've been a hunter for over 30 years
and a competitor in various shooting disciplines for the same.
Including long range.

dxr

.

[smithwesson9090]

He didn't mean hold in the actual center of her body! That was for the elevation...once again...jumping to conclusions...my gosh! I think we deserve a little more credit than just aiming in the center of the deer and shooting!

[Art Eatman]

Enuf...