S&W M&P9 torture test finally broken!


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Irfan
December 9, 2008, 01:45 PM
Todd Green (a famous gun writer who has worked first for Beretta, than SIG and is working now for S&W as I understood) has been torture testing a M&P 9mm pistol for more than seven months, and finally after more than 60,000 rounds the pistol had its slide broken! I have to say not too bad, at least for a major part like slide, frame and barrel, but at the same time I cannot say it did better than Chuck Taylor's famous Glock 17. You can read about it here, all documented: http://pistol-training.com
What do you think guys?

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DrewH
December 9, 2008, 02:18 PM
My only comment is that I have always been extremely suspicious that Chuck Taylor's G17 really lasted that long :)

Deer Hunter
December 9, 2008, 02:23 PM
Anecdotal.

:)

Marcus L.
December 9, 2008, 03:33 PM
Single pistol torture tests give you a glimpse of what the pistol is capable of, but one pistol out of thousands isn't enough to determine much of an opinion of the pistol design. The larger the sample you take, the more accurate the determination. This is why most LE or military organizations require that at least 5 pistols of each model be tested during a trial. If one fails, they all fail. This is what happened with the Department of the Army trials of 1982(Sig and Beretta passed), the FBI trials of 1993(Sig and Glock passed), the Department of Homeland Security trials of 2002(Sig and H&K passed), and the Department of Defense trials of 2005(only Sig passed).

The S&W M&P has a lot going for it. DHS is supposed to have another pistol trial in 2009.....we'll see how the new M&P does in it.

CZF
December 9, 2008, 07:15 PM
His testing of the Glock included replacement of some small parts along the way.


I might be wrong, but I think that the test should end when a part breaks.

On the other hand. There are CZ75s out there that have over 100,000 trouble free rounds thru them.

Irfan
December 9, 2008, 07:48 PM
"On the other hand. There are CZ75s out there that have over 100,000 trouble free rounds thru them. "

CZF, do you have it all documented?

Marcus L.
December 9, 2008, 08:26 PM
CZF,

The FBI tested 5 CZs along with other competitors during the 1993 pistol trials. None of the CZ 75b pistols made it past the 15k round mark without breaking a major part. Pistols that passed the FBI trials were the Glock series and the Sig series. Ammunition used was full power NATO and +P. Later, in 2005 during the Department of Defense pistol trials the 5 CZ 75b pistols in the trial also did not make it to the 15k round mark. The only pistol that passed the DOD trials was the Sig.

I've heard a number of internet stories on CZs being super durable and being the number one pistol in the world, but when confirmation of these stories is asked for......*crickets*. I know of a few former USSR satellite states that still use the CZ, but they also use Makarovs too. Not even the Czech police use the CZ 75 or P-01 anymore to a large extent. They now are transitioning to the Glock 9mm. I'm sure some of the heavier competition models have a lot of rounds through them....and they should. Most competition shooters don't use full power NATO or +P loads like you get in military or police trials and the pounding on the pistols is greatly reduced. However, most shooters I know of who have high round counts on their CZs have replaced the typical breaking parts on CZs several times.......trigger return springs, trigger bars, and extractors. Any of those parts breaking during a trial is considered a disabled weapon(which it is), and it fails.

MarcusWendt
December 9, 2008, 09:33 PM
I wasn't aware that Sig was the only one to passed all of the mentioned trials. Makes me feel good about my Sigs... like I actually needed another reason.

60K? Not bad. I really like my M&Ps. I think it will be a long time before I hit 60K on either of them.

ConstantineJ9
December 9, 2008, 10:04 PM
I wanna see a test done on Ruger p series. Seems nobody want's to do it.

DZL HOG
December 9, 2008, 11:25 PM
Todds a good guy and a great shot too, he attended a class I took a few months ago. I think the gun had around 55Krds at that time, and put almost 1k through it in the class.

Theres a thread on m4carbine thats keeping track of what was a 50Krd test. He has had some small parts break also, trigger spring and ambi slide stop are the ones I remember. Neither of which completely stopped the gun from running. He also did routine stuff like replacing recoil springs after several thousands of rounds.

S&W is determining whether or not the gun is safe to run with the crack in the bottom of the slide. Since the gun is only cleaned every 5Krds or so, he doesnt know exactly when it cracked.

GregGry
December 9, 2008, 11:37 PM
I hear the lorcin passed all those tests..

Killermonkey21
December 10, 2008, 04:38 PM
"I hear the lorcin passed all those tests.."

My friend...there are half-truths, lies, and damn lies...I think that statement fits all three :P

schmeky
December 10, 2008, 04:49 PM
60,000 rounds and the slide cracked, good grief, that's incredible. What's even nuttier is, this thing is STILL UNDER WARRANTY :what:.

Sig rates their P-220 at 15,000 rounds, Beretta's about the same. I think this shows just how far polymer technology has come. M&P's are a winner.

SDDL-UP
December 10, 2008, 06:37 PM
How does one explain the CZ P-01 being NATO approved with a NSN after going through a 15,000 round test if a CZ can't last 15,000 rounds?

armoredman
December 10, 2008, 06:52 PM
Czech Republic going to Glock? No, they use the PO1...where is your documentation?

hags
December 10, 2008, 09:46 PM
His testing of the Glock included replacement of some small parts along the way.


I might be wrong, but I think that the test should end when a part breaks.

On the other hand. There are CZ75s out there that have over 100,000 trouble free rounds thru them.

I know others have already commented but come on, give it a rest already.

What's really interesting is where the slide cracked. Right on the cut out. The article also states that the pistol is/was still functioning.

Amazing, way to go S&W!

CZF
December 11, 2008, 12:00 AM
I don't think the Czech national SWAT team has went Glock.
They are carrying SP01 Tacticals.

As for ANY brand or model of firearm being tested.
When a part breaks, the test should end, but some don't
see it my way.

BTW: The SAS wanted to adopt CZ75s as their pistols.
but politics at the time swayed them to the P226 and P228.

The Lone Haranguer
December 11, 2008, 12:37 AM
When I opened the link I was expecting a disabling or even catastrophic failure, not a little piece broken. My pistol may never see 60,000 rounds through it, but this is encouraging nonetheless.

hags
December 11, 2008, 01:52 AM
When I opened the link I was expecting a disabling or even catastrophic failure, not a little piece broken. My pistol may never see 60,000 rounds through it, but this is encouraging nonetheless.

Same here. I was expecting to see the slide in two pieces, not a little sliver.

hags
December 11, 2008, 01:53 AM
I don't think the Czech national SWAT team has went Glock.
They are carrying SP01 Tacticals.

As for ANY brand or model of firearm being tested.
When a part breaks, the test should end, but some don't
see it my way.

BTW: The SAS wanted to adopt CZ75s as their pistols.
but politics at the time swayed them to the P226 and P228.

and................................?

Luis Leon
December 11, 2008, 03:05 AM
Marcus,

Thanks for that information, I didn't realize the CZs were ever considered during the pistol trials.

best regards,

Luis Leon

sparky923
December 11, 2008, 05:45 PM
Link (http://pistol-training.com/)

As we reported on Monday, the M&P9 endurance test gun pictured left, brand new still in its box back in April finally cracked its slide at 62,333 rounds. While the gun continued to run without any stoppages, Smith & Wesson asked that we send the pistol to them for inspection.



The engineers inspected it, declared it safe, and suggested we keep shooting.

Then the lawyers intervened.

It's not surprising the lawyers shut it down. I'll bet everyone involved was chapped when the fine print guys pulled the plug.

DrewH
December 11, 2008, 06:17 PM
How does one explain the CZ P-01 being NATO approved with a NSN after going through a 15,000 round test if a CZ can't last 15,000 rounds?

Easy. NATO approval has nothing to do with lifespan or durability tests.

JImbothefiveth
December 13, 2008, 04:53 PM
If one fails, they all fail. This is what happened with the Department of the Army trials of 1982(Sig and Beretta passed), the FBI trials of 1993(Sig and Glock passed), the Department of Homeland Security trials of 2002(Sig and H&K passed), and the Department of Defense trials of 2005(only Sig passed).
Can anyone post a link to these tests?

Girodin
December 13, 2008, 11:52 PM
When a part breaks, the test should end, but some don't
see it my way.

Why? As long as the the breakage is documented and one isn't being deceptive there is no reason not to continue. You learn much more that way. Continue allows you to see how long other things last. These test are most often antidotall and non scientific anyhow so you shouldn't be placing that much stock in them. As someone else said they give you a glimpse of what one pistol is capable of and are interesting but are not forcedly representative.

Further many of these test are just people doing it on their own so if they want to continue then I don't see why they shouldn't. Odds are an individual will repair their personal pistol and keep shooting it so why not keep reporting on it. If you report all failures and replacements then I don't see the problem.

SwampWolf
December 14, 2008, 07:03 PM
If one fails, they all fail. This is what happened with the Department of the Army trials of 1982(Sig and Beretta passed), the FBI trials of 1993(Sig and Glock passed), the Department of Homeland Security trials of 2002(Sig and H&K passed), and the Department of Defense trials of 2005(only Sig passed).

Can anyone post a link to these tests?

Don't hold your breath! ;)

c5367
December 14, 2008, 07:39 PM
Army XM9 Pistol Trials
http://www.riflesnguns.com/pistol/sig/p226
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/6078/92story.htm

Both the Sig and Beretta passed, but the Beretta had cheaper magazines making it cheaper overall. Funny, considering that the guys in sandbox frequently mention the issue mags are usually f'in worthless. When I was in the Corps, we frequently had to "adjust" the mag springs to make the darn things work, and that was in a clean garrison environment.


Couldn't find anything about the FBI test.


Homeland security tests
http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/sig070606/index2.html
(at least as it pertains to the Sig, detailing torture test as well)
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=779
Press release showing that HK and Sig won contracts.


IIRC, the DoD 2005 trials for the new Joint Combat Pistol were shelved. Couldn't find anything about what guns passed.

SDDL-UP
December 15, 2008, 09:44 AM
DrewH,

One would think a 15,000 round test would have something to do with durability and lifespan.

Maybe it's just me.

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