.410 ga 000 Buckshot Loads for HD?


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.455_Hunter
December 9, 2008, 04:18 PM
Greetings,

The current trend for "tactical low-recoil" 12 ga loads feature 8 or 9 00 pellets at approximately 1100-1200 fps. These loads are considered "outstanding" choices for home defense by numerous experts.

It seems to me that Winchester's .410 ga buckshot loads would also be "outstanding", or at least "excellent", given that the 3" version features 5 000 (not 00) pellets at 1100-1150 fps.

Obviously, 8 or 9 00 pellets will cause more damage than 5 000 pellets, but this loads seems to bring the .410 ga into contention as a very effective HD caliber- especially using one of the Mossberg Model 500s as the platform.

What do you folks think?

Thanks,

Hunter

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Rampant_Colt
December 9, 2008, 04:28 PM
Sounds like a good idea if your only weapon is a .410

Would be a most excellent choice for women and children

JImbothefiveth
December 9, 2008, 04:34 PM
I suspect that the 12 gauge would still be better. At the least, use a 20 gauge. I believe that's the minimum commonly recomended, and there's probably a good reason for that. 20 guage, though, seems to be usually loaded with smaller size shot.


How much less recoil does the .410 with this load have?

JImbothefiveth
December 9, 2008, 04:41 PM
In addition, the point of the "reduced recoil" loads may be to get as many pellets on target with as little recoil as possible. Anyone know anything about this?

If so, it seems 12 gauge delivers about twice the .410's preformance, but this would be a good choice if you had to use a .410 for defense.

.455_Hunter
December 9, 2008, 04:43 PM
I suspect that the 12 gauge would still be better.

No argument there...

My main point is that these 000 shells takes the .410 ga out of the "marginally effective" category (#4 birdshot), and puts it into the "definitely effective" category.

If somebody already owns a Model 500 pump, they need not be concerned about available ammunition choices.

JImbothefiveth
December 9, 2008, 04:50 PM
My main point is that these 000 shells takes the .410 ga out of the "marginally effective" category (#4 birdshot), and puts it into the "definitely effective" category.
I suspect they do, too.

However, I'd like to ask, does anyone have stopping power data for 20 gauge 00?

barnetmill
December 9, 2008, 04:51 PM
The big question is how does it pattern. You want as much velocity as is practical if you only have 5 pellets. remember 5 of these 000 pellets are about 9mm in diameter and are equivalent to five overloads shot from a .36 caliber cap and ball revoler. At close range and maybe at long range too this could be a man stopper.

I rely on 12 ga shotguns myself.

JImbothefiveth
December 9, 2008, 05:02 PM
12 gauge has twice as many pellets, and at the same velocity, and that's just the reduced recoil loads. (Still recoils more than a .410)

jbauch357
December 9, 2008, 05:04 PM
Take a look here: http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

rcmodel
December 9, 2008, 05:08 PM
However, I'd like to ask, does anyone have stopping power data for 20 gauge 00?No, because 20ga is never loaded with 00 Buck.

That size of shot won't stack right in a 20ga hull.

I think #2 or #3 Buck is all you will find available.

rcmodel

JImbothefiveth
December 9, 2008, 05:12 PM
Yep, penetration doesn't look too good. However, water is different from ballistics gel. Apparently it penetrates farther in water than in gel.

I no longer think the .410 buckshot is such a good choice.

.455_Hunter
December 9, 2008, 05:13 PM
Take a look here: http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

Unfortunately, "The Judge" has a very short barrel and is not ballistically comparable to a full length (18" +) shotgun barrel.

spiroxlii
December 9, 2008, 05:17 PM
I own both a .410 and a 12ga. I will say that a quality 12ga can be had for a similar price to a quality .410 shotgun, and the ammo for a 12ga is cheaper per round. On top of that, even if effective HD loads are available for the .410, they are not going to be as common in stores as suitable 12ga HD loads. The selection of ammo for 12ga and 20ga is much better than it is for any other gauge or bore around here.

.455_Hunter
December 9, 2008, 05:39 PM
Finally- some applicable test data!

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Winchester%203%20inch%205%20pellet%20buck.html

410 bore

Winchester 410 bore 3 shell, 5 pellets of unplated 000 buckshot

Barrel was a break-action, 18 smoothbore

Mean pellet impact velocity was 1107 0.500 ft/sec

Average penetration was 18 0.031

Block calibrated at 612 0.500 ft/sec and 9.3 0.05cm penetration

Curiously, the temporary cavity on this round never seemed to collapse from its approximately 1.5 0.031 diameter magnitude, for the entire length of the 16.0 0.031 block. All rifle and pistol projectiles seem to create a temporary cavity at the initial inches of penetration and then collapse to the size of the permanent cavity. This load produced an approximate 16x1.5 diameter temporary cavity.

I am not sure what the muzzle to gelatin impact distance was in this test.

rcmodel
December 9, 2008, 05:51 PM
Well, a 000 buckshot pellet weighs about 71+ grains.
So 71 x 5 = almost 360 grains of lead going 1,100 FPS.

That is almost 1,000 ft/lb of energy.

Should do the job I would think.

rcmodel

NCsmitty
December 9, 2008, 06:19 PM
I load some of my 410 shells, 2.5" with 3 of my own .380 dia. cast lead balls stacked with slivered felt wads between them for a good crimp, on top of a Gualandi gas wad and a healthy charge of H-110 powder. Shooting them through my NEF 410, sans choke, with rifle sights, they will consistently stay in 12" at 50yds. That's similar to 3 heavy loaded 38 special bullets hitting. Definitely big medicine from a little shotgun, especially at close range.

NCsmitty

Bud Tugly
December 9, 2008, 10:28 PM
No argument that a 12 gauge reigns supreme for most HD applications, but not everyone can deal with the recoil. Even reduced recoil loads can be too much for the elderly, youngsters, the disabled, or people with arthritis or similar problems. Rather than arm those folks with a .22 or a baseball bat, it's good to know that the 3" 000 buck loads from a .410 are reasonably effective.

Another thought is that your home could be invaded while you aren't there, so there should ideally be an HD weapon available that EVERY member of your household could use in a pinch. It might justify having a .410 with the buckshot loads as a secondary protection just in case.

Something to think about, at least.

spiroxlii
December 9, 2008, 11:19 PM
People keep talking about the .410 having reduced recoil, but in my limited experience with my .410 and my 12ga, they have similar recoil with birdshot. I haven't tried buckshot out of either one. I have tried slugs out of my 12ga.

I know the .410 shell looks small, but the .410 barrel is narrower, and many .410 shotguns out there have a fixed full choke. What effect does that have on operating pressures/recoil in a .410 shotgun? My "measurements" are purely subjective, and all I know is that my shoulder can feel just as battered by my NEF/H&R single shot .410 as it can by my 12ga Wingmaster.

12Bravo20
December 10, 2008, 12:00 AM
I load my own 3" buck shot shells with 5 pellets and they pattern well at 20 yards out of all of my .410's. I have shot them out of my Mossberg 500, H&R single shot and my O/U with good results. I haven't done any ballistics on my loads but the pattern is good. I wouldn't hesitate to use the 3" buck shot shells around the house for HD.

jackdanson
December 10, 2008, 12:17 AM
I sure as heck wouldn't want to get smacked by it.

Would be a most excellent choice for women and children

Bah! oft repeated rarely proven. My wife weighs under 120 lbs and can handle rapid firing a saiga 12 just as well as I can. Telling smaller statured people "you might not be able to handle this" diminishes their confidence, when truthfully they could quite easily handle it. The first time she shot a 12 gauge her response was "is that all? you're a big baby"

Bud Tugly
December 10, 2008, 01:28 AM
The standard load from a 3" .410 is 11/16 ounces, while a standard 12 gauge load is 1 1/8 ounces, meaning the 12 gauge load is about 1.64 times heavier. That should mean that the recoil force would be 1.64 times greater from the 12 gauge if all other factors were equal.

Obviously it's more complex than that, since most .410 shotguns are lighter than 12 gauges and that would make the recoil force a bit greater for the .410. However, the muzzle velocity for most .410 shells is about 10% slower than 12 gauge shells, so that tips the balance a bit the other way.

Other things also come into play, like the quality of recoil pads and gun fit to the shooter, so in reality it's nearly impossible to really break things down to a simple formula. Still, for most people in most situations, a .410 is much easier on the shoulder than a 12 gauge.

Whether that difference is enough to matter is probably a very individual thing. All I can say from my personal experience as a quadriplegic in a wheelchair is that I can easily handle the recoil from a .410 while a 12 gauge nearly dislocates my shoulder.

That makes the choice a no-brainer for me.

miekelle
December 10, 2008, 03:24 AM
is a 16 gauge good for HD?

Al Thompson
December 10, 2008, 03:45 AM
My experience was pretty poor with the .410 buckshot - extreme vertical stringing. Like 24 inches top to bottom at 21 feet.

If your gun patterns it, go for it. :)

Al Thompson
December 10, 2008, 03:46 AM
miekelle, a 16 GA sure beats yelling and screaming. :) Lots of threads here about HD/SD with a shotgun.

12Bravo20
December 10, 2008, 10:38 AM
My experience was pretty poor with the .410 buckshot - extreme vertical stringing. Like 24 inches top to bottom at 21 feet.

If your gun patterns it, go for it.

This is true no matter what gage shotgun you use. One must check that a particular load patterns well in their shotgun. I get a better pattern out of my Mossberg 500 in .410 than I do with my Norinco 98 in 12 when using buckshot. Each shotgun will shoot/pattern differently.

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