Stg44 vs AK47 Design


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Ohio Gun Guy
December 10, 2008, 01:35 AM
I saw in person a stg44 (Sturmgewehr) at a gun show earlier this year. It was not for sale, and I'm sure I didnt have enough if it was. I have always thought that it looks strikingly like it is Version 1 of the AK47. Of course the Russians do not admit this, but from looking at it, I do not think there is any way that Mikhail Kalashnikov did not have one of these in the shop while "inventing" the AK47. Not that the AK isn't improved & Significantly different, but really, look at the attached pictures. Additionally, the Russians blatently copied other designs during WW2 (Our B29, Google RUSSIAN B-29 CLONE- THE TU-4 STORY)

Picture I grabbed off of a previous post here on THR is the inside hammer. Look at the hammer & Spring arrangement. It's the same! Is this common knowledge, or am I on to something here? :scrutiny:

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JoeSlomo
December 10, 2008, 01:39 AM
Nah, you are on to something.

However, it is NOT uncommon for countries, and companies alike, to "borrow" ideas from other countries. There are many weapons that are modeled after, or share traits with, foreign designs.

bthest86
December 10, 2008, 01:44 AM
They are similar in concept and profile but they are different designs. The AK-design is more related to the M1 Garand than the Stg44.

RockyMtnTactical
December 10, 2008, 01:45 AM
You'd have to be a fool to deny that the AK was influenced by the STG44, and not just in concept. I do think it is very likely there were samples of the STG44 in the hands of Kalashnikov.

However, that is not to lessen Kalashnikov's ingenuity and venerable design.

Funderb
December 10, 2008, 01:45 AM
I always thought the similarities were too obvious to ignore.
but you know how the russians are.
They wont even admit that they are of viking descent.

Prince Yamato
December 10, 2008, 02:09 AM
...except the STG-44 is a striker fired design and the AK uses a hammer. The STG-44 is more similar to the VZ-58 rifle that the Czech's use. I think Kalashnikov was influenced by the profile of the rifle and the durability of the magazines, but decided to produce a simpler design.

PirateRadio
December 10, 2008, 02:10 PM
I'd love to own a STG-44 someday. It just seems like a really cool rifle.

Shear_stress
December 10, 2008, 02:15 PM
Also, the AK uses a rotating bolt and the Stg44 a tilting bolt. They do look similar, though.

As mentioned above, the AK borrows from a bunch of different designs, from the Stg, the Garand, and even from the Remington Model 8 (safety lever).

Frog48
December 10, 2008, 05:01 PM
Additionally, the Russians blatently copied other designs during WW2 (Our B29, Google RUSSIAN B-29 CLONE- THE TU-4 STORY)

Also, the Soviet's first jet engines were unlicensed, reverse-engineered copies of Rolls Royce and BMW engines.

Acheron
December 10, 2008, 05:10 PM
It is a generally accepted fact that Kalashnikov patterned the layout of the AK47 after the StG44, but the internals are very different.

The Vz. 58, however, was directly based off of the Stg44 despite the similarities in appearance between it (the Vz. 58) and the AK.

Shear_stress
December 10, 2008, 05:18 PM
The Vz. 58, however, was directly based off of the Stg44 despite the similarities in appearance between it (the Vz. 58) and the AK.

Sort of. Unlike the Stg44, the Vz58 uses a separate, short stroke piston, a tilting locking piece (rather than just a tilting bolt) and a milled receiver .

sturmgewehr
December 10, 2008, 05:55 PM
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Forums/guns/Rifles/mp44_apart_w.jpg

The StG44 has a similar appearance, but the similarities pretty much end there as you can see from the included images.

The locking systems between the AK and the StG44 are completely two different designs.

They do use a similar gas system (long-stroke), but neither the AK or the StG44 pioneered this method of operation.

The StG44 has a modular trigger pack design whereas the AK does not.

They both use shortened versions of full power cartridges. If anything, this is something Kalashnikov copied pretty much directly.

The original AK47 had a machined receiver (although early prototypes were stamped, the Russians abandon the stamped receiver until later models of the AK were developed). The StG44 is completely stamped.

They both use pistol grip stocks... but again, this wasn't a completely new concept.

They both are select fire. The fire control parts are completely different on the two rifles.

So, I would not say the AK is a copy of the StG44. It is a copy of the concept (assault rifle) but the implementations are completely different.

The StG44 certainly inspired Kalashnikov's design, but he didn't copy the rifle.

P.S. the StG44 is hammer fired, it doesn't have a striker. You can see the hammer in the second picture the OP posted. It has a semi-conventional firing pin (wedge shaped).

screechjet1
December 10, 2008, 06:01 PM
http://gorgornews.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/ogaden1.jpg

That picture is less than a year old.

The sad part is that rifle, properly registered, would fetch enough to fund the Ogaden Separatists for a month.

Golden Hound
December 10, 2008, 06:52 PM
Can someone identify the others in that picture? I see a Hakim, and an AR or M16 all the way in the back. But what is that weird thing with the shrouded barrel right behind the Stg44?

Jim Watson
December 10, 2008, 07:00 PM
Looks like a Beretta 38A.

The sad part is that rifle, properly registered, would fetch enough to fund the Ogaden Separatists for a month.

Hey, the Democrats like foreign aid. Do you think the BO administration would reopen MG registration to support their 3rd world buds? Probably not.

Golden Hound
December 10, 2008, 07:27 PM
How do these third world jokers keep all their calibers straight? They're using a bunch of totally obscure weapons - where do they even get the ammo? Do they make it themselves?

RockyMtnTactical
December 10, 2008, 09:42 PM
...except the STG-44 is a striker fired design and the AK uses a hammer. The STG-44 is more similar to the VZ-58 rifle that the Czech's use. I think Kalashnikov was influenced by the profile of the rifle and the durability of the magazines, but decided to produce a simpler design.

Nobody said they were identical in operation... or even in any other way....

sturmgewehr667
December 10, 2008, 09:53 PM
Do they make it themselves?

yes

i LOVE stg44's as you can tell by my handle. it is my life long dream to own one, even if i have to go to a third world warzone to get one:)

-v-
December 10, 2008, 10:25 PM
I'd also point out that some of the similarities might also be examples of simple convergent design. The AVS-36, and the SVT series of self-loading rifles also featured the gas-piston mounted above the barrel a-la StG-44/AK-47, thus with the piston being above the barrel, it would necessitate that the front sights be raised up so that the shooter could aim through them. Also the M43 cartridge has a notable taper to it to aid in feeding, thus the necessity of "banana-mags" due to the natural curvature of these rounds when stacked in a magazine.

Evil Monkey
December 10, 2008, 11:09 PM
i often wonder why where tilting bolts used instead of rotating bolts. Rotating bolts existed before the invention of the stg44, sks, fal, but they went with tilting bolts instead.

Ian
December 11, 2008, 02:45 AM
I bet it's simpler to make a trunnion for a tilting bolt than a rotating one.

C-grunt
December 11, 2008, 03:24 AM
Are there any two weapons in that picture that use the same ammo?

Golden Hound
December 11, 2008, 04:16 AM
Those guys don't realize it but they're running a frickin' rifle museum over there. If they could just get their act together and auction off that collection of theirs, they could probably purchase their own island and be as separate from Ethiopia as they damn well please.

Tyris
December 11, 2008, 04:43 AM
Those guys don't realize it but they're running a frickin' rifle museum over there. If they could just get their act together and auction off that collection of theirs, they could probably purchase their own island and be as separate from Ethiopia as they damn well please.

Auction it off to whom exactly?

They're worth their functional value over there, wanna bust some caps, use whatever comes to hand with a handful of rounds.

They cant be imported to the US as we're whipped by our lame laws, and europeans are too limp wristed to care.

-T

Kind of Blued
December 11, 2008, 05:34 AM
It is a dream of mine, for an American company to create an STG44 clone in 7.62x39 that takes AK mags and sell them for under a grand. :)

briansmithwins
December 11, 2008, 01:04 PM
Kalashnikov said he didn't have access to the StG44 before the rifle trials. Some of the other prototype assault rifles that competed were much closer functionally to the StG44 than Kalashnikov's prototype AK.

Given that the Sov A-bomb design team were also isolated from the intelligence being stolen from Los Alamos because Stalin wanted to make sure it wasn't all a double cross. I can see the Soviet leaders being paranoid enough to keep their weapons designers on the dark.

Kalashnikov did say in his biography that he had a copy of a text on weapon design, by Fedorov. Fedorov did design the 1st assault rifle, by anybody's reckoning. Of course, the Fedorov Avtomat had some problems of it's own. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedorov_Avtomat

I think the AK-47 external resemblances to the StG44 are an very good example of convergent evolution.

1) Both rifles use a tapered cartidge, which dictates that the magazine needs to be curved.

2) Both rifles use sheet steel construction. However the original design for the AK had a complex hybrid machined and stamped receiver that was riveted together. This is very different from the StG44. The AKM, with it's stamped receiver and riveted trunnions, resembles the StG44 more closely.

3) Design layout. If you want the in line stock layout that helps control full auto fire, you must place the sights high enough to be seen and use some sort of pistol grip. There just aren't a lot of choices there.

Kalashnikov admits that he didn't design all the elements that went into the AK-47. What he did do was put those elements together in a new way. His genius was in developing a design that could be manufactured cheaply, and robust enough that it's virtually impossible to break.

BSW

david_the_greek
December 11, 2008, 01:36 PM
um there are a lot of nice looking rifles in that pic... looks like an M1A in the background too

HorseSoldier
December 12, 2008, 01:24 AM
It is a dream of mine, for an American company to create an STG44 clone in 7.62x39 that takes AK mags and sell them for under a grand.

I'd rather see a US clone, or just open importation of the German clones, in the original chambering, if only to avoid having the StG lines compromised by a big AK banana mag making it look like something the folks at Hesse or Century dreamed up . . .

RP88
December 12, 2008, 01:26 AM
there are some differences though. But yes, you can see where the Russians decided to cut corners and where also to work in more current technology 9at the time)

~Ace~
December 12, 2008, 01:57 AM
Kalashnikov Designed the AK Because of the STG, he seen it in action and knew it was the future... It would have been foolish to reinvent the wheel from scratch, so he used all the info he had on a variety of weapons, combined with his own ideas to create Perfection. :)

Hoppy590
December 12, 2008, 02:19 AM
anyone who things the AK was influenced by the STG doesnt understand the operation of either of them.

oh and the STG44 wasnt the "father of the assault rifle" no matter how many times the history channel tells you.


Kalashnikov Designed the AK Because of the STG, he seen it in action and knew it was the future
wrong. Kalashnikov had already been assigned to a design bureau by 42. he never saw it in action. his design career began with SMG's and his latter career, and specifically the creation of an intermediate rifle was spawn by the soviets desire for a rifle to chamber the new M43 (7.62X39) round. Kalashnikov's original designs lost to the SKS.

Kalashnikov was designing before the STG saw service. the soviets as a nation put out a request for an rifle chambered in the new M-43 round, so he made a rifle for that round. Kalashnikov's rifle bears no operational similarities to the STG.

theres nothing in this chain of events that would indicate Kalashnikov was influenced by the STG in anyway

Golden Hound
December 12, 2008, 02:21 AM
They should just make an Stg44 in 9x18. I would love to have that.

HorseSoldier
December 12, 2008, 02:27 AM
I think you could make one in .30 Carbine without having to modify the receiver and mag well design, though I doubt it would sell like crazy for what it would cost to make from scratch here in the US.

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