Home Defense load

[joker4096]

Hi, I just purchased a shotgun for home defense, and i was wondering on what type of shot would you all recommend. I was thinking something like a 00 buck or maybe a slug?

[KC0QGL]

Go with 00 Buck. Both of my HD shotguns are loaded with Federal 00 Buck.

[abaddon]

In order to answer that question it might be best to know a bit more about your living situation. If you live out in the country where distances over about 40 yards might be needed for Coyotes, etc then slugs might be a good idea.

If you live in suburbia or in an apartment then I would NOT recommend slugs because they will over-penetrate and endanger your neighbors.

Opinions on what type of buckshot vary on this board. 00 buck is probably the most common, but many people here feel that number 3 or 4 buckshot is better in most house settings. The larger the number gets the smaller the pellets there are. And the smaller the pellets they are the more of them there are.

I think in most settings I would lean towards #3 or #4 buckshot rather than 00 because you'll have more pellets hitting the target and each pellet will be enough to penetrate to where you need to.

[joker4096]

Thank you for the replies, abaddon, you are located near me, im in seattle

[Al Thompson]

What sort of shotgun and what gage?

[wnycollector]

I use fiocchi low recoil 00 buck in my maverick 88. I like it because it patterns well in my shotgun, plus its relatively inexpensive (~$5/10 from sportsmansguide) and allows me to practice more with it!

[monkyboy1975]

00 Buck. Just avoid the 3" stuff.

[earlthegoat2]

low recoil buckshot, size should be 1 or over

[BullpupBen]

I would go with $4 buck. You get 27 pellets instead of 9 which greatly increases your chances of both hitting the target and hitting him enough times to reach his vitals/CNS and take him out quckly. IMO 00 buck overpenetrates for HD range and shouldnt be used if you know your not going beyond 30-40 yards.
For evidence of what I'm talking about, check out these ballistic gelatin tests, the #4 is EXCACTLY the degree of penetration i would want from an HD shotgun, and the wound is massive:

http://tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

[foghornl]

My HomeLand Security load is Rem #4 Buck.

Patterns best out of my Maverick 88...Your Mileage Will Vary. Buy a small box of all the different brand/shot sizes you can find locally, set up the pattern board/paper and blaze away. Once you have found the load that gives you the pattern you want, buy a whole mess-o-them.

[saint]

I could be wrong about this, as I'm pretty new to shotguns, but...

I believe that in a HD situation, pellet count won't do much to improve your odds of a hit. At HD ranges (point blank to maybe 10 yards) a shotgun pattern is pretty tight. Unless you have some out-of-this-world short barrel, that pattern will necessitate aiming the thing as though it were loaded with a single slug. Once the pellets enter the body of the hapless desperado...that's a different story. Then pellet count might matter, as more pellets=more chance of one weaving its way through the body to the spinal cord.

Just don't think that a higher pellet count means a wider cloud of shot at HD ranges.

00 buck could well overpenetrate at HD ranges, though. I just don't know...never done ballistic gel tests on that. Check out The Box O' Truth.

[gunNoob]

Get the flamethrower rounds if you're not worried about burning the house down :)

[chuckusaret]

I have a different opinion on how to load a HD shotgun. I think of the court case that will follow and how I will defend my actions. I have my 12 gauge Mossberg 500 Cruiser loaded with first a BB, six 00 buck and last a rifle slug. The first shot shows that my intent was not to kill but wound (yea) the intruder followed by more deadly loads.

[saint]

Just be sure to tell your wife what your SG is loaded with those dragon's breath rounds so she doesn't burn up her living-room curtains at 3 a.m. when two gang-types enter through a window :uhoh: :D

[jakemccoy]

If I fire a gun in self-defense, my intent is to stop the assailant. I choose 00 buck because I'm more comfortable with this load's ability to stop an assailant. "Stop" means the assailant is most likely going to die. If you have at least minimal knowledge about shotguns, it would be hard to argue that you intentionally fired a shotgun at a human's center and expected them to survive.

Some people tend to over-think the legal issue. For example, one poster said that their first load is BB so as not to appear as if they are trying to kill. Any of a multitude of weird things will happen later in court. For example, a prosecutor may argue that if your intent was merely to slow a person down, then you were planning on the possibility of shooting when your life wasn't in imminent danger. (Meanwhile, it's hard to argue that you intentionally fired a shotgun at a human's center and expected them to survive.) That’s just one example of how it’s impossible to know what the prosecutor will do. My point is that over-thinking the legal aftermath is a waste of time and possibly detrimental to your own good.

Stay within the law. Keep your thinking honest and simple.

[Cusmar]

3" magnum 00 followed alternately by 3" magnum 7/8 oz. slugs.

1. Obey the four rules.
2. Show no mercy to the transgressors.
3. Go to hospital to re-locate shoulder.

[jbauch357]

I like the Federal Tactical reduced-recoil 00 buck. plenty of punch for defense, with a bit of reduced recoil so you can make proper accurate follow up shots.

do yourself a favor and order in bulk, you can get 250 rds for $199 off ammoman.

[ZRX61]

I have a different opinion on how to load a HD shotgun. I think of the court case that will follow and how I will defend my actions. I have my 12 gauge Mossberg 500 Cruiser loaded with first a BB, six 00 buck and last a rifle slug. The first shot shows that my intent was not to kill but wound (yea) the intruder followed by more deadly loads.
That first round will land you in a world of hurt. It basically has to be "life or death" & standing in front of a judge/jury explaining why you just wanted to wound the guy isn't going to cut it... If you merely "shoot to wound" then it plainly ISN'T life or death... & he (or his surviving family) will sue you all the way to the poor house.
At least thats how it was explained to me...

[RP88]

there are several rounds made in low recoil loads. If you are worried about recoil and overpenetration, but still want to use larger pellets, try those out in 00 buck

I personally go with your 2-3/4" Remington Express 00 buckshot. I also have some #1 as well, which I like because there being more pellets. I live in a neighborhood where there is enough space that everyone has a nice yard, so the overpenetration thing isn't an issue for me.

also, if you are using a gun (especially a shotgun), you are using deadly force. A firearm is a deadly weapon. The court will not likely see it any different. With that in mind, if you have to shoot someone, you might as well stay with that intended purpose and do it right in order to make sure that they don't come back with their own deadly force or their lawyer.

[Bix]

I have a different opinion on how to load a HD shotgun. I think of the court case that will follow and how I will defend my actions. I have my 12 gauge Mossberg 500 Cruiser loaded with first a BB, six 00 buck and last a rifle slug. The first shot shows that my intent was not to kill but wound (yea) the intruder followed by more deadly loads.

I'd suggest you have your legal theory vetted by an attorney in your jurisdiction.

[mljdeckard]

jakemccoy is absolutey right. Legally shooting to wound can do nothing but get you in trouble.

I go with #4 buck, and I keep two slugs in the sidesaddle to the rear. You MAY have to shoot THROUGH something like a wall or an appliance. If you don't have the right load, you don't have the option. If you are loaded with a mixture of rounds, you don't know what round you might need at what time. As suggested above, #4 will cause pretty much the same trauma as 00 at close range, but also increases the odds of a CNS hit with a higher count of pellets.

[Geezer59]

The thinking that smaller sized shot will give you a larger pattern with higher hit percentages is flawed. At room-to-room ranges, even bird shot patterns will still be small - you have to aim a home-defense shotgun in order to hit.

Small shot lacks penetration, and penetration is needed to reach vitals to insure reliable stoppages. I wouldn't consider any load with smaller than 00 buckshot, and prefer 000 whenever available. Slugs are best reserved for rural or anti-vehicle scenarios.

If you're concerned about overpenetration, first make sure you don't miss the target. Very few (if any) buckshot loads will penetrate through-and-through the human body with a COM hit. Using large diameter buckshot in lower recoil (tactical) loads is a good idea, as hits are easier to get, follow-up shots faster, and penetration is adequate without becoming excessive.

Birdshot and small dia. buckshot can sometimes give devastating results, but have too high a failure rate for my peace of mind. They're best suited for other than self-defense uses. Cheers! :)

[mljdeckard]

My real life experience with both 00 and #4 shows they both penetrate just fine. Certainly in in-home ranges. I never said the pattern was bigger. I said there were more projectiles, and therefore a higher likelihood of a CNS hit.

[chuckusaret]

I have seen the physical damage done to the human body hit in the chest with a BB shell at 15 feet . It stopped the individual "DEAD" in his tracks. I have also seen the devastation of a 00 buck & 000 buck at close range. We used the shotgun for hutch to hutch operations in Vietnam. Some troops used them when walking point in dense jungle.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

I use triple ot buck. I've got 2.75s in the gun, and a few extra 3.0s in the side saddle, and one slug for good measure.

[VegasOPM]

I load my house gun with 3", 4 buck. The 00 stuff penetrates walls a bit too easily for me.

[joker4096]

i figured the 00 buck will be a bit too strong for close quarters

[kmrcstintn]

#9 handicap target loads...they are the best ;)

[Dirty Bob]

I chose the largest buckshot available in 2-3/4" shells. Since I use a 20ga., that means #3 Buck. It patterns beautifully in my gun, so I can live with it.

In 12ga., I suggest you start with reduced recoil 00 Buck, and shoot it to see how it shoots out of your gun. If recoil is manageable and patterns are good, congratulations! You have a winner!

Regards,
Dirty Bob

[Steve C]

loaded with first a BB, six 00 buck and last a rifle slug. The first shot shows that my intent was not to kill but wound

Your fooling yourself if you don't believe BB will not kill a person, and quite elfectively too, esp at the 3 to 10 yards you're likely to be shooting someone inside your house. A friend of mine made extra money during the Vietnam conflict buying 12ga shotguns at the PX and selling them to ROK soldiers his crew flew supplies into. He said these guys would take a hack saw and cut the barrel off just beyond the end of the magazine. He could sell as many shotguns along with a case of shells he could buy at more than double his money. He said the ROK's didn't want and wouldn't take buckshot but asked for BB load bird shot. I'm sure their intent wasn't to wound the enemy.

Check out this website Selecting a Choke (http://www.wildfowlmag.com/tips_strategies/shotgun_062304/)and pay some attention to the charts showing the spread of shot from shotguns of various chokes from NONE (cyl bore) to FULL.

Unless you live in a very large house with lots of open floor space most house and apartment distances you would be be shooting at no more than 10 yds and more likely it would be 5 or less. Even a cylinder bore riot gun only puts out a spread of 20" at 10 yds, 5 yds would be more like 10". Measure the longest shot in your house or apartment and remember the distance is measured from the muzzle of the gun and not where you are standing so subtract at least 1 yd.

Here's a pic of #4 bird shot fired at ballistic gelatin at 3 yards from a cylinder bore 18" Remington 870.
http://www.shadonet.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/bird4_heavy.jpg
Yet the author concludes that bird shot is somehow ineffective :rolleyes:. I know of no one who would survive a center mass hit with such a load other than wearing body armor. Now put that in a modified or full choke hunting shotgun and you'd get similar results at 10 yds.

There's nothing wrong with and many good reasons to choose buckshot in any of its sizes. Buckshot will be effective at much longer distance but realize that any load at house distance will likely kill the person you shoot center mass. There's no guaranteed just wound 'em or scare 'em rounds using shot of any size at such close range.

[alaskanativeson]

#4 Buckshot would be my first choice for home defense load in most situations. You give up very little in distance or stopping power but you reduce the possibility for over-penetration.

In my current situation, my home defense loads start with 2 rifled slugs followed by 6 loads of 00 Buck. Of course being where I am, the shotgun is loaded for bears rather than invaders. That's what my .45 is for.

On the topic of shoot to wound, I'd suggest some discussion with firearms trainers and/or defense experts. Feel free to PM me if you want a more detailed explanation of my beliefs about this.

[sm]

Slugs are my preference.

I have seen buckshot fail, including the longer shells.
I see no reason than to use anything but 2 3/4" shells anyway.

Environment will dictate , so one is wise to investigate and verify their mindset, skill sets and what their gun does with a load at known yardage.

One is responsible for each projectile fired .
Now projectiles deflect upon some media, such as glass.

My lessons dealt with my concerns not only for home, also business settings.
So many of you probably will not be concerned with shooting through a one way mirror.

How about those nice glass doors that separate dining room from the kitchen, or den or...

Glass deflects, slugs and FMJ deflect less.

My lessons dealt with my lady partner for instance being held by a Bad Guy and I had to take the shot. I do not want to hit my partner, so a slug lessons that chance if I do my part.

Lessons were a BG shooting and using cover, and perhaps me going through the kitchen cabinet where the colanders, and pots and pans kept.
Heck, even the drywall, as he exposed himself enough...or just going for the kneecap exposed

Shooting lanes, cover, concealment, back stops all being part of the toolbox, just not only the gun and load.

I have seen the fella take a 3" load of buckshot and live. I have also seen a 3.5" load of buckshot not stop a 70 pound dawg.

I like slugs best...just me.

[RandyB]

I use #1 buck in my 12 ga. I have 00 in my sidesaddle and the speedfeed stock holds 4 slugs in my 870. I sleep well by the way.

[chuckusaret]

Steve is correct. Using a 12gauge 20" barrel shotgun loaded with BB at 10 to 15 feet the shot pattern would be 3 to 5" and chest hit would be deadly.

[Howaido]

I don't trust reduced velocity buck. Even with tactical loads that have the cup for tight patterns, I want the full power loads.

I do however trust reduced recoil slugs out to about 50 meters, where it will still be over 1000fps. To me, that is essentially just a big, soft-lead, nasty .73 caliber pistol round.

Full power slugs IMO have much more recoil than full power buck (2 3/4") and the reduction in recoil is worth it with slugs. My choice is the reduced velocity hydra shocked federal tactical slug.

Past 50 meters, in a combat situation, I want a rifle, not a smoothbore de facto musket anyways. Man, I got off track here...

[heavyshooter]

First shot is Remington Low Recoil #4 birdshot. The rest of the tube is filled with Federal LE Low Recoil 00 Buckshot with Flite Control. I do not know why I have #4 Birdshot up first in the pipe. I am fully aware that at HD distances it will be lethal more often than not. I guess I do it because it will give the intruder some chance of survival; 00 Buck will not!!!

[inSight-NEO]

I don't trust reduced velocity buck. Even with tactical loads that have the cup for tight patterns, I want the full power loads.

I do however trust reduced recoil slugs out to about 50 meters, where it will still be over 1000fps. To me, that is essentially just a big, soft-lead, nasty .73 caliber pistol round.

Full power slugs IMO have much more recoil than full power buck (2 3/4") and the reduction in recoil is worth it with slugs. My choice is the reduced velocity hydra shocked federal tactical slug.

Why dont you trust reduced velocity buckshot? From what I gather, low recoil 00-Buck has a velocity of over 1100 fps. Is this not enough? And those slugs you prefer; Better not miss...for several obvious reasons.:what:

Guess I do it because it will give the intruder some chance of survival; 00 Buck will not!!!

Yes..and it will give the intruder, or his/her family, a greater chance of hauling you to court for a civil lawsuit. Besides, while #4 increases the odds of survival, within typical HD ranges, these odds arent great. I think more people are concerned about the penetration characteristics of 00 Buckshot vs #4 Birdshot, more than the killing aspects of these rounds. I tend to favor low recoil 00 Buckshot regardless.

[ChCx2744]

What do you guys think about Winchester WinLite Low Recoil Ammunition 12 Gauge 2-3/4" 00 Buckshot 9 Pellets?

[guntotinguy]

#4 Buck inside the house...and if needs be Fiocchi low recoil 00 buck outside.

[CoRoMo]

Both, and alternate them in the magazine... if that is the type of gun you have. What type did you get anyway?

[chuckusaret]

My attorney has recommended that if I experience a home invasion and shots are fired, the best thing to do is call 911 and KMFMS until he is on site.

[Mike U.]

chuckusaret wrote:

My attorney has recommended that if I experience a home invasion and shots are fired, the best thing to do is call 911 and KMFMS until he is on site.



chuckusaret,

Would you decipher KMFMS for me, please?

I am my village's idiot... :o

[buttrap]

I am cheep as I use the N0-7 bird shot for in the house. Short range its still in the cup and acts just like a slug. Short range in the house deals what the load is tends to be pretty moot unless you have a really big living room.

[buttrap]

I would advise most folks to go to the back yard and stick up a old sheet of 3/4 inch ply and test what they are using for a load at from 5 to 30 feet..you may be shocked...

[Doc_Jude]

I can't believe that ANYONE HERE actually plans on shooting someone with a sub-standard load (birdshot) in order to "give the perp at least some chance to survive".
What complete and utter ignorance. First off, this is in complete violation of an etched-in-stone cardinal rule: DON'T POINT A GUN AT SOMETHING THAT YOU AREN'T INTENT ON DESTROYING.
Second... a living perp gets a criminal defense lawyer. I know that I certainly don't want any of that trouble.

Okay, here's my .02 cents (a quarter too late, I suppose):

If this is indeed for "home defense", measure the longest distance that you're planning on shooting. It may be somewhere between the longest hall in your home and from your house to your property line, I have no idea. Depending on your State, it will vary what you are planning on.

Anyways, get that distance out on the range and pattern your gun with all different sizes of Buck, from #4 up to #00 or #000. If you're looking at the longest hall in the house, you will most likely not notice much of a change in the pattern, as the shot will be moving in a column of supersonic metal. Either hit them with 8 or 9 .30-something caliber shot or a 27 count of .24 caliber shot.
You're responsible for EVERYTHING you put downrange, remember that when you're thinking about a home-defense load. If you over-pen with a slug and it kills your neighbor's baby, you're going up the river. If just one of your #000 shot does the same thing, you're going up the river. #4 Buck LE rounds were specifically developed to do the job of big buckshot at close ranges such as breaching homes or apartments calls for, while preventing over-penetration.
Look Here:
#4 Buckshot Description (http://www.securityprousa.com/4bushtaenga.html)



Oh, & GOOD LUCK!

[Howaido]

I keep the HD gun filled with full-power federal tactical buck, the one with the cup.

I prefer the full power buck as it is fine recoil-wise with my specops, so I will take the extra power. The RR slugs seem to be about on a par recoil wise with the full power buck, so I used to have them on the sidesaddle. Full power slugs are just a bear IMO. The "kinetic energy of a freight train" to quote another, but the recoil to match.

Now, I have taken off the sidesaddle at least temporarily, so I don't have anything other than the previously mentioned buckshot with the gun. My reload is a transition to handgun.

[76shuvlinoff]

In the event I grab my 870 and level it at a threat the over penetration scenario is virtually a non issue because of where and how I live. If a threat truly exists I must stop it, body armor or not. My first round is a slug because I mean it.

.02

[punkndisorderly]

Reduced recoil 00 Buck for me. I used to alternate buck, slug, buck etc. However, after taking into account how much slugs penetrate, the maximum range I'd be shooting in a home defense situtation, and how little difference there is between reduced recoil buck and regular buck at HD ranges I now just load up with reduced recoil buck.

Most of you have probably seen this, but for those who are new (or haven't seen it) this is a fairly interesting test of shotgun penetration: http://http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

The summary: Slug will go through 6+ interior walls, buckshot will go through 3-4, #4 and #1 will go through 3. (All assuming not hitting studs, furniture, etc).

[riverdog]

For the reasons stated by others here, mine's loaded with:

http://www.ammoman.com/images/12-ga-tactical.jpg

[357wheelgunner]

Yet the author concludes that bird shot is somehow ineffective . I know of no one who would survive a center mass hit with such a load other than wearing body armor. Now put that in a modified or full choke hunting shotgun and you'd get similar results at 10 yds.

Gelatin doesn't have bones. That shot is survivable to the abdomen, the only place on the human body that would actually be penetrated that deep. Birdshot is not a fight stopping load. It makes mess, aweful looking, but very survivable and superficial wounds.

Can we get a sticky thread about HD loadings please?

edited to add:

If a threat truly exists I must stop it, body armor or not. My first round is a slug because I mean it.

A slug won't go through body armor. IIIA vest will stop all handgun and shotgun rounds. A shotgun slug doesn't have enough sectional density to penetrate, but I'm sure it would hurt like hell anyway.

[76shuvlinoff]

Quote:
If a threat truly exists I must stop it, body armor or not. My first round is a slug because I mean it.

A slug won't go through body armor. IIIA vest will stop all handgun and shotgun rounds. A shotgun slug doesn't have enough sectional density to penetrate, but I'm sure it would hurt like hell anyway.


Yeah I had/have my doubts about penetration on body armor but my suspicion is it would ruin the targets day, and stop the threat (or sure as hell slow it down). Close range with buck would probably do the same. My other excuse for a slug up front is I feel it provides the option to be a little more surgical provided one has the need and the focus to pull it off.

[tblt]

00 or 000 not a slug

[riverdog]

One thing I've learned is to not overestimate my ability to remember stuff like which flavor shotgun round is up next. So my tactic to avoid this potential confusion issue is to load 00 Buck first through last, with more 00 Buck available when it's time to reload. I can refill the magazine in the dark and not worry about the order of slugs vs shot.

[ChCx2744]

Even though a slug or even buckshot may not penetrate level 3 ballistic plate, the energy will spread around that area of your body will more than likely knock you senseless or break something. If it knocks you out (which will MOST LIKELY HAPPEN), then the BG can probably get your weapon, shoot you in the head when your out, etc. The best is to take cover/concealment and don't get shot, whether or not you got a vest or not :)

[the foot]

My nearest neighbors are buried in a graveyard, about 1/4 mile away. So, since I don't have the problem of killing neighborhood innocents with my home defense weapons, I use the loads I consider sufficient and easiest to handle. And that is 12 gauge, 2 3/4" 00 buckshot.

[wrs840]

#4 High Power 2-3/4" Duck Load for me.

Les

[UnclePete]

chuckusaret,

Would you decipher KMFMS for me, please?

I read it as Keep My Flipping Mouth Shut.

[357wheelgunner]

My nearest neighbors are buried in a graveyard, about 1/4 mile away. So, since I don't have the problem of killing neighborhood innocents with my home defense weapons...

OMG they're in the graveyard because some mall ninja home defender used lolbuckshot and it went through their house and killed all the neighbors!!!! Now we should all use nerf balls, wadded up and crammed into shotshells, in our HD shotguns. THINK OF THE CHILDREN

(I'm not serious by the way)

[JImbothefiveth]

Research ballistic gelatin tests of whatever size shot you use.

[Mike U.]

Thanks UnclePete!

All this 'net-alphabet-soup-acronym talk sometimes befuddles my somewhat simple mind. :D

[heavyshooter]

I can't believe that ANYONE HERE actually plans on shooting someone with a sub-standard load (birdshot) in order to "give the perp at least some chance to survive".
What complete and utter ignorance. First off, this is in complete violation of an etched-in-stone cardinal rule: DON'T POINT A GUN AT SOMETHING THAT YOU AREN'T INTENT ON DESTROYING.
Second... a living perp gets a criminal defense lawyer. I know that I certainly don't want any of that trouble. -- Doc_Jude

Here we go with the universalized opinions again. :rolleyes: Doc_Jude, if you want to skip the birdshot and kill the perp, then that is your home, your gun, and your prerogative. Pay close attention to how well I avoid words like "utter ignorance." First of all, most home defense shootings are at very short distances. Consequently, the #4 birdshot does not spread much and is more lethal than you appear to think. Second you have erected a straw man by quoting you "etched-in-stone cardnal rule." My stone says, "Do not point your gun at anything that you are not willing to destroy." The willingness does not communicate the obligation. The fact that I shot him means I am willing to kill him, it does not follow that I must kill him. I reject your cardinal rule. Thirdly, stop perpetuating the myth that I must kill someone to avoid litigation. Fewer people get sued for defending their homes than you may think and even fewer actually lose the lawsuit. Not to mention the fact that you may be sued by the family of the perp. YOU CAN'T SHOOT THEM!!! I am not shooting at a beast, I am shooting at a man; and I choose to give every man the opportunity to live. For me that means birdshot to stop him and if he does not stop I use buckshot. It's my prerogative. Again notice the lack of ad-hominem statements like "utter ignorance." Allow someone to have an opinion others than yours. It's not all that hard. ;)

[heavyshooter]

...it will give the intruder, or his/her family, a greater chance of hauling you to court for a civil lawsuit.

Oh Yeah, I forgot about that. The perp's family will not sue you if you kill him.:scrutiny: How could I possibly forget that rule?

[Doc_Jude]

Here we go with the universalized opinions again. Doc_Jude, if you want to skip the birdshot and kill the perp, then that is your home, your gun, and your prerogative. Pay close attention to how well I avoid words like "utter ignorance." First of all, most home defense shootings are at very short distances. Consequently, the #4 birdshot does not spread much and is more lethal than you appear to think.

Yes, I'm aware, but this has more to do with the spread. It IS interesting how you seem capable of avoiding the word ignorance and not ignorance itself.

Second you have erected a straw man by quoting you "etched-in-stone cardnal rule." My stone says, "Do not point your gun at anything that you are not willing to destroy." The willingness does not communicate the obligation. The fact that I shot him means I am willing to kill him, it does not follow that I must kill him.

So... your rationale is that you're shooting the guy with a "not non-lethal" round with the intention of NOT killing him? & when you shoot him with bird shot and your gun is found to have buckshot in it, your defense for using birdshot would be "I was willing to kill him but didn't intend to kill him"??? You think that this protects you from law suit? Shooting to Wound?

I reject your cardinal rule. Thirdly, stop perpetuating the myth that I must kill someone to avoid litigation.

I wasn't. Funny, I thought that I said this:"Second... a living perp gets a criminal defense lawyer. I know that I certainly don't want any of that trouble."

Is this true, or not true? I'd rather have to deal with the D.A.'s office, or a jury of my peers. Who's issuing the Straw Man now?

Fewer people get sued for defending their homes than you may think and even fewer actually lose the lawsuit. Not to mention the fact that you may be sued by the family of the perp. YOU CAN'T SHOOT THEM!!!

Yes....

I am not shooting at a beast, I am shooting at a man; and I choose to give every man the opportunity to live. For me that means birdshot to stop him and if he does not stop I use buckshot. It's my prerogative. Again notice the lack of ad-hominem statements like "utter ignorance." Allow someone to have an opinion others than yours. It's not all that hard.

Ad Hominem is an attack upon the person, not the argument or ideology. Please educate yourself before you use such terms that "you appear to think" you're capable of using. I specifically spoke against the PLAN, not the person.

BTW, I like the roll-eyed winky smileys. It almost seems like you care.

I am not shooting at a beast, I am shooting at a man; and I choose to give every man the opportunity to live. For me that means birdshot to stop him and if he does not stop I use buckshot. It's my prerogative.

Yes, it is. Oh, & I love the condescending tone: "Pay close attention... it's not all that hard." Blah :barf:

You know what? If you read some Hobbes, you'll learn about social contract and "the state of nature". If a man violates the social contract through thinking that he is entitled to everything, even your property, then he is no less than a beast, wouldn't you think?
Are you going to shoot someone with #4 birdshot, which is apparently "more lethal than I may appear to think", with the intention of wounding them? Where will you shoot them, with this "chance-granting yet not non-lethal" round? You're going to call a shot? Good luck with that.

In my world, & the world of most intelligent people, a burglar gets many chances, many opportunities "to live".
First, he presumably knows the law.
Second, he is breaking into my home, which is not his, to take property, which is not his, or to perpetrate a crime against someone who is obviously not him (he can do whatever he likes to himself, I could care less).
His third strike would be not doing EXACTLY what the hell I tell him when I have a gun pointed at him.
If you're pointing a gun at someone who's gone through all of these steps, and then are issuing, in essence, a "warning shot" with some bird load....
Here's a little article about SHOOTING TO WOUND (http://www.policeone.com/writers/columnists/force-science/articles/127235/)


Also, I hope that you're not assuming that my stance is just shooting any and all burglars IN ORDER TO AVOID A LAWSUIT. It's not, is it? Because that would be another Straw Man on your part.

[Doc_Jude]

from thefiringline.com:
A number of years ago a local "night creeper" got caught by a ladies boy friend coming out of her bathroom. Boy friend gave the creeper a load of #6's at less than 10 feet. The creeper was arrested three days later when he showed up at a hospital, claiming the wound was caused by an accident while hunting.

He had been wearing a heavy flannel shirt and a down vest under an insulated leather bomber jacket. The #6's failed to penetrate enough to really do any real damage. The creeper told the Sheriff that if he had had his gun that night, he would have shot the boy friend.

I use #4 or #1 buckshot. If I lived in a thin walled apartment, I might intertain the birdshot idea.

If you want to cover all your bases you need to go with #4 at least.I too know of an incident where #7 1/2 failed to penetrate a heavy leather jacket.I guess your first can be a 7 1/2 if you want,but that second round better be able to do the job if the first round fails!

The load of choice at SCDC used to be birdshot - 7 1/2s or some such. Awhile back there was a well organized riot where the inmates used mattresses to enable them to close with the guards. The light loads would not penetrate enough to stop the inmates. The SCDC then tested larger and larger loads to get full penetration of the mattresses. End result - a 2 3/4 load of # 5s was chosen as the duty load.

My HD load is a round or two of # 2s, followed by appropriate buckshot/slugs.

I've related this a couple of times before but a buddy of mine was shot from across a small room with a 12 gauge loaded with birdshot. He underwent a lot of surgery but he lived. The guy that shot him didn't survive the encounter and my buddy was unarmed. Now granted the gun was a single shot and if the guy had a pump or auto the outcome probably would have been different. One shot with birdshot may or may not stop an attacker. I put my money on 00 buckshot


The other problem with birdshot is that for every anecdote of someone dropping instantly from being shot with it, there is another anecdote of someone continuing to fight and sometimes even kill the person wielding the shotgun.

There are too many variables in each of our lives for one size to fit all when it comes to shotgun ammo. The good thing is you have choices.

I don't live in an apartment, my home is not a split floorplan with bedrooms on both sides. If I am shooting toward an intruder, I am shooting away from my family. The intruder, if he is shooting toward me, is shooting toward my family who would be behind me. I want him stopped, NOW. 00 buck and slugs tend to do that faster. Are they a guarantee?? No. But they're the best bet for a quick stop.

You may live in an apartment. You may have valid overpenetration concerns given your situation. In that case, you may be better served with smaller shot. Just don't expect it to "act like a slug" or "be effective at accross the room distances". Sometimes it might, sometimes it won't, sometimes you may have to shoot farther than across your bedroom. Have a plan B.

There are many variables, as others point out, proximity being pivotal. There is a big difference between gelatin, targets and drug/alcohol/mentally derranged attackers. Though I have seen several lethal "birdshoot" wounds, none were beyond 3 yards, most 1 yard or less, and all were solid torso or head shots.

Though I understand the legitimate concern for overpenetration in certian circumstances, there is no free lunch, less penetration will pertain to all strutures.

I've personally seen two head wounds from point blank range from a 12g with small birdshot, not sure of the size. One was self-inflicted. Both survived, although one was fairly mangled (most of the right jaw and left ear area blown off). Neither had any of the birdshot actually penetrate the skull. Either could have continued the fight had they been a meth or crackhead intent on hurting someone else.

My agency also sends us incident reports. I've seen many, many photos of similar birdshot failures at short range. I wouldn't trust it, but if I did have to carry birdshot, the larger the better. Didn't one of the gellatin sites suggest that #2 birdshot almost made the magical 12" penetration at short range?

Here's some info to live by, instead of dying because of some abnormal moral demand to give someone a chance to live by shooting them:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

[riverdog]

In a personal defense shooting, the intent is to stop the perpetrator, not kill them. The perp may suffer mortal wounds because stopping does involve lethal force, but the intent of shooting is to stop him immediately.

My thoughts are that birdshot is for birds. If I am forced to shoot someone to protect my life, I am not using birdshot. I'm not mixing and matching various loads as a continuum of force. Every round in my shotgun is the same, first to last.

[Dave McCracken]

OK, Dudes, the thread's locked because you guys can't follow the rules.

Sheesh!!