Full Auto SKS???


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Texpatriate
December 10, 2008, 12:50 PM
I found a guy online selling an SKS for about $200 over what I'd expect to pay for one retail. So I e-mailed him to find out the details, and ask why his price is high. Here's his response:

this one is full auto. email me back if still interested. thanks

To which I replied:

"Full-Auto" is legally defined by the ATF as one pull of the trigger resulting in multiple rounds fired. "Semi-auto" is defined as one pull of the trigger resulting in one single round being fired and another round being loaded into the chamber, but not fired. Another pull of the trigger is required to fire each subsequent round. The SKS was designed as a semi-automatic firearm, not a fully automatic firearm. If yours is "full-auto" by definition of the ATF as you say, your SKS has either been illegally altered, or is malfunctioning. Either way you are in posession of an unregisterd fully-automatic firearm, and that is a felony.

Semi-auto firearms such as the SKS are perfectly legal for civilian ownership. Now having said that, are you sure that your SKS is "full-auto"? I'm not a lawyer or a cop, and what you do and own is your business as far as I'm concerned. But unless you have misspoken, I suggest you toss that thing in the Mississippi river before the goon squad gets wind of it. Just my two cents, and you can take it for what it's worth. Best of luck.

To which he replied:

my sks has been alterd by having the sear pin messed with. i have a class c licence.you hold the trigger and it keeps shootin. it works great. i wont throw it in the river. that would be a waste.if you want it its 425 obo like i said. otherwise thanks. and yes sks's can be made full auto with a few mods.its easier on the ones with detachable clips. thanks

Now, I know that people can own full auto firearms with certain legal loopholes being jumped through, but does this sound legit? And if so, is it legal for him to transfer ownership of it in a simple FTF transaction? This doesn't sound quite right to me.

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Shear_stress
December 10, 2008, 12:55 PM
Nope. Post-86. Don't go near this one.

MT GUNNY
December 10, 2008, 12:55 PM
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Caution !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sound like a setup!!

phorvick
December 10, 2008, 12:56 PM
Of course it is illegal. Maybe a sting?? Setup? Or stupid seller?

Texpatriate
December 10, 2008, 12:58 PM
My thoughts exactly. What if he did it before 1986 and had the paperwork to prove it?

Shear_stress
December 10, 2008, 01:01 PM
My thoughts exactly. What if he did it before 1986 and had the paperwork to prove it?

Extremely unlikely. If it was transferrable it wouldn't be $425, that's for sure. I would not not have any more contact with the seller if I were you.

Thin Black Line
December 10, 2008, 01:03 PM
Interesting how I keep hearing more and more about these things all of a
sudden and the new administration hasn't even taken their seats in the
buildings yet.

Yeah, just a coincidence...

MGshaggy
December 10, 2008, 01:05 PM
My thoughts exactly. What if he did it before 1986 and had the paperwork to prove it?

It would be at least 20-30 times his asking price, probably a whole lot more.

If you're still curious, ask him for a copy of his form 4 (if he bought it as a full auto) or form 1 (if he registered and converted it to full auto himself).

foghornl
December 10, 2008, 01:14 PM
"Run Away, Forest....Run Away!"

Ask for copies of the Form 1 or Form 4, but otherwise, make it plain you are NOT interested in violating Federal law.

kentucky bucky
December 10, 2008, 01:18 PM
Danger, will robinson.........danger......danger!!!!!!

Airman193SOS
December 10, 2008, 01:20 PM
Run.

As you do so, think very hard about forwarding those e-mails to the ATF. Yes, I know, the ATF is not always the friend of the gun owner, but if this guy did the work himself and has an illegal weapon for sale you'll be helping out the next guy that doesn't know the law, buys the weapon, and ends up in the pokey because of it.

Gun ownership carries certain responsibilities, and foremost among those is that we remain the law-abiding citizens we always claim to be. This guy, barring a Form 1 or 4 for the weapon, is not law-abiding and is not worthy of your silence, especially since he's trying to entice you to break the law.

BHP FAN
December 10, 2008, 01:31 PM
He's already said he had a license,but I still wouldn't go anywhere near it,there's just too many fine Russian ,Chinese,Romanian,heck you name it SKS's out thereto be sniffing around one that the seller describes as haveing been ''messed with''.I would never,ever have any contact with the alphabet gang. It rarely turns out well for the ordinary guy.

TexasRifleman
December 10, 2008, 01:33 PM
he's already said he had a license

If he really did he would know he can't sell it.

He's full of crap.

Jim K
December 10, 2008, 01:38 PM
If he really had a Class 3 SOT, he would have clearly stated that the gun was transfrerable on a Form 4. Plus, I agree that the price would be a lot higher.

It may be a scam or simply an idiot trying to make a buck but either way, avoid it.

Jim

BHP FAN
December 10, 2008, 01:45 PM
''He's full of crap..''
Well said Texas Rifleman.I'd stay miles away from this one.

DoubleTapDrew
December 10, 2008, 01:45 PM
What's a class c license? Maybe he misheard someone say "class 3"

mbt2001
December 10, 2008, 01:50 PM
What's a class c license?

Truck driver... Although I am not sure how that is relavent...

Not only can you not buy it, you should turn the guy over to the ATF. Sorry to be an ars, but in cases like this you have to be careful.

ilovebubbles
December 10, 2008, 01:53 PM
bump

Rob G
December 10, 2008, 01:57 PM
Run far away and forget you ever spoke to him. Wether or not you choose to turn him in is up to you but I definitely wouldn't talk to him again, ever.

Oh and slightly off topic but....

What's a class c license?

Truck driver... Although I am not sure how that is relavent...

No sorry...You're thinking of a Class A CDL... Class C is for cars (in most states)

leadcounsel
December 10, 2008, 02:01 PM
Sounds like a setup....

I agree, these have been poping up ALOT since the election.

Some believe you have an obligation to report him to the ATF.

Some would argue to tell the guy that he's committing felonies and federal offenses (manipulating the weapon and selling it). If he's just a dumb seller, you'll do him (and a potential buyer) a favor. If he's an undercover LEO - then he'll move on to try to find the next buyer.

mp510
December 10, 2008, 02:11 PM
I wonder if the seller is actually in the US? I believe I recall an article several years ago that in New Zealand they had a collector's class license (which they called class C) that was allowed to own full auto weapons.

CoRoMo
December 10, 2008, 02:18 PM
Should Texpatriate expect to be contacted by the BATFE?:confused:
How about requests directed to THR staff/admin by the BATFE?:(

Just wondering.:o:o:o
I figure that they are reading this as we type.:uhoh:

Zundfolge
December 10, 2008, 02:24 PM
What if it is a sting?

If he just ignores the guy and DOESN'T report him can the OP get in trouble?

I've never run into one of these kind of sellers, but I've often wondered what my legal obligations are if I do.

I don't want to turn in some schmuck who just doesn't understand the law (and as complicated as the law is I can see how you're average person could get it wrong).

BUT I also don't want to put myself in the position where I could be arrested for failure to report or some such thing.

MGshaggy
December 10, 2008, 02:24 PM
I wonder if the seller is actually in the US? I believe I recall an article several years ago that in New Zealand they had a collector's class license (which they called class C) that was allowed to own full auto weapons.

And that would change things how?

Its still not legal to import an NFA weapon sans import permits and demo letters, and even if you have those the end user, which can only be an SOT or government agency, can only possess it as a post-sample.

Texpatriate
December 10, 2008, 02:43 PM
The guy had it posted on Craig's List of all places! Not illegal, but against Craig's List's posting policies.

mp510
December 10, 2008, 04:07 PM
And that would change things how?

Its still not legal to import an NFA weapon sans import permits and demo letters, and even if you have those the end user, which can only be an SOT or government agency, can only possess it as a post-sample.

What I was trying to suggest was that maybe the OP had responded to a foreign ad intended for a foreign audience. Unlikely, but possible.

I

Frog48
December 10, 2008, 04:20 PM
The guy had it posted on Craig's List of all places! Not illegal, but against Craig's List's posting policies.

If it were legit:

1) He would have said "Transferable on Form 4", not "class c license"
2) It would be ALOT more than $425.
3) It would not be listed on a firearms specific forum, not Craigs List.

barnetmill
December 10, 2008, 04:30 PM
Did any military ever issue an SKS in a full auto mode? It is likely if this SKS is full auto that this gun has something wrong with its firecontrol parts and it is slam firing.

I would not answer the email and would not report it. What the guy is proposing is illegal, but in my opinion not wrong, but yes it is very unwise. An honest man should be able to own and sell any smallarm without it being the government's business.

Airman193SOS
December 10, 2008, 04:46 PM
An honest man should be able to own and sell any smallarm without it being the government's business.

An honest man cannot own "any small arm" in the United States. There are limits that are clearly defined.

The astounding irony in your statement is that you are comparing the violation of law with honesty. The two are mutually exclusive.

As long as I live I will never understand this mentality.

damien
December 10, 2008, 04:49 PM
"I wont throw it in the river - it's a BEEPing valuable thing!"

This guy is as dumb as our governor and is heading to the same place.

Prince Yamato
December 10, 2008, 11:12 PM
What he most likely has is an SKS that is slam-firing. It's not full-auto, it's malfunctioning.

Did any military ever issue an SKS in a full auto mode?

The Chinese had a gun called a Type 68(?) which was basically a modified SKS that fired in full-auto. Said fool probably does not have one of these.

mp510
December 11, 2008, 12:35 AM
What he most likely has is an SKS that is slam-firing. It's not full-auto, it's malfunctioning.

There is the possibility that it was a conversion. While I don't know if the specs in them work (and I don't care to find out), I have seen books for sale in catalogs and at gunshows that detail how to convert an SKS to full auto. Though, there is also a good chance that cosmoline (or something) in the firing pin channel could be causing it to malfunction/slam fire.

The Chinese had a gun called a Type 68(?) which was basically a modified SKS that fired in full-auto. Said fool probably does not have one of these.
There was two models- the T-63 and T-68. They used 20 round detachable mags and the safety (smae location as SKS) also served as the selector switch. I have a chest rig made to carry T-68 mags- workds pretty well for 30rd AR mags:)

beatcop
December 11, 2008, 08:05 AM
C'mon you know the answer to your question....:)

Knowingly attempting to purchase something being represented as a converted full-auto is a quick route to a conspiracy charge...

Run Forest! Run!

Deanimator
December 11, 2008, 08:16 AM
As you do so, think very hard about forwarding those e-mails to the ATF. Yes, I know, the ATF is not always the friend of the gun owner, but if this guy did the work himself and has an illegal weapon for sale you'll be helping out the next guy that doesn't know the law, buys the weapon, and ends up in the pokey because of it.
The BATFE (NOT "ATF", that's just their own attempt to sit at the grownup table) is NOBODY'S friend.

He should go ahead and send it to the BATFE, keeping in mind that they're probably the ones who originated it in the first place. Given their OFFICIAL endorsement of PERJURY in the past, trust NOTHING they say.

It goes without saying that he have no more contact with the offeror.

deaconkharma
December 11, 2008, 10:59 AM
If it is slam firing, it could be slam firing and out of timing with a full seating in the chamber...
a catastrophic failure, a trip to the ER, a trip to jail, or all three, might be in this guy's future.
you get involved... then you could win all three too.

Trebor
December 11, 2008, 12:34 PM
Nothing good can come of this.

It's either a sting, a swindle, or illegal.

Run away. Run, far, far away.

Texpatriate
December 11, 2008, 01:27 PM
Ok, so I e-mailed the guy back yesterday to let him know that I am in no way interested in coming within 100 yards of his SKS, let alone buying the thing from him. Here's what I said:

Sorry, I'm not interested in any way, shape, or form in buying that SKS. And I stand by my previous assertion that what you have done is a federal offense. The only suggestion I have for you is to immediately contact an attorney and ask him/her what your legal options are. As far as I am concerned, that is the end of this conversation.

To which he replied this morning:

ahaha its legal at my house. thats all that matters.

This guy is either a total moron, or he is one brilliant ATF dude trying to throw me off with with perceived idiocy. I'm done with this guy.

Lurp
December 11, 2008, 04:37 PM
Glad you did the right thing and did not contact the ATF. I won’t ever understand the mentality of some people who sit here and talk about the absolute RKBA, but are willing to turn someone in for breaking an unconstitutional law. I would have done as you did and told the seller I was not interested and that he is in current violation of federal law and leave it at that. I don’t know about some people, but I stopped tattling to "teacher" once I was out of elementary school. Let every man be responsible for his own actions

MGshaggy
December 11, 2008, 05:51 PM
Glad you did the right thing and did not contact the ATF. I won’t ever understand the mentality of some people who sit here and talk about the absolute RKBA, but are willing to turn someone in for breaking an unconstitutional law.

Lurp,

I don't <care> what people do if they know the consequences of their actions, and don't needlessly involve other people. You want to illegally convert a gun to full auto while smoking a spliff of purple haze in the privacy of your own home, well...rock on.

But when someone tries to pass off something like an illegally converted gun to an unsuspecting (but otherwise law abiding) gun owner, I get a bit cranky. Most gun owners know at least a little about machineguns - that they're illegal unless you've done some arcane BATFE forms and paid some fees, etc. Most are vastly uninformed or misinformed as to the reality of the laws, specific rulings, advisory opinions, caselaw, and proceedures. As a result, especially given that more new people who know nothing about guns are buying guns lately, you have a situation where an innocent party can easily be taken advantage of by an unscrupulous seller (as seems to be the case here) and put into jeopardy of a felony conviction.

Again, I don't care if one wants to do an illegal conversion for themself - they know (or should know) the laws and if they violate them, they have only themself to blame. Its when they try to sell, it or put another gun owner in jeopardy with it that I have a problem.

expvideo
December 11, 2008, 05:58 PM
Call the police and report this. People that want to sell you illegal machineguns are bad people.

ETA:
Please. Please. Please call the police. This guy is either going to sell an illegal machinegun to a gullible person and get them thrown in jail, or he is going to sell it to someone who knows that they aren't supposed to have it, and that kind of person is dangerous. This guy NEEDS to be stopped before something really bad happens. I'm all for repealing illegal machinegun laws, but until that happens, this guy is a dangerous criminal.

DrewH
December 11, 2008, 06:11 PM
Seriously-this screwball casually proposes to involve me in a felony that could get me into serious trouble if I did not know better. I'd turn him in in a heartbeat.

mcwjr13
December 11, 2008, 06:26 PM
At the least print and file hard copies of your emails just in case. Tough call as to whether or not to call ATF maybe discuss it with your local pd first.

Odnar
December 11, 2008, 10:38 PM
The astounding irony in your statement is that you are comparing the violation of law with honesty. The two are mutually exclusive.

As long as I live I will never understand this mentality.

Just because it's the law doesn't make it right.

stevelyn
December 12, 2008, 04:30 AM
My first guess would be a BATFE <> fishing for a case.

Davek1977
December 12, 2008, 08:08 AM
This guy is doing gun owners in general a disservice, and its because of people like him that we have to deal with ever increasing gun control idealogies in this country of ours. I'd have no qualms whatsoever about turning this over to law enforcement of some type, ATF or otherwise. He's bad news, an idiot, and could lure an unknowledgeable person into committing a felony unknowingly. in no way is what he's doing beneficial togun owners at large, and theres absolutely no reason to defend someone like him from the authorities. Simply ignoring it might work for some people, but if I were in ANY way involved, I couldn't let this go without informing someone.. Maybe that makes me a "tattletale" or maybe it makes me a responsible citizen. Take your pick...a stranger's opinion of my actions or perogative matters little to me.

DrewH
December 12, 2008, 11:31 AM
Re the argument it is a sting...could be, but plenty of foolish gun owners out there. I've met some of them.

I'd turn him for using the "clips" word as well :)

expvideo
December 12, 2008, 12:11 PM
I'd turn him for using the "clips" word as well
LOL, I wonder what the punishment for that is.

Lurp
December 12, 2008, 06:07 PM
MGshaggy, I see where you are coming from, but I still feel it is the buyers responsibility to make sure what he is buying is not in violation of any "laws". I just hate the thought of a gun owner running to the BATFE, who is no ones friend by any means, and ratting someone out for a crime that shouldn't even be a crime.

dvcrsn
December 13, 2008, 12:05 AM
If it is full auto--the guy is either an idiot:mad:, snitch:fire:, or LEO trying to get an easy bust/conviction:fire::banghead::cuss:

Glockman17366
December 13, 2008, 10:36 AM
When I bought my first SKS many years ago (early '90's, I think), I bought a book on converting the rifle from semi-auto to full auto (no selective fire) by modifying the trigger group. So, the rifle may have been coverted.
Personally, I think the seller is just stupid and a braggart. I do not think it's a BATF sting.

Before anyone asks, NO, I did not convert my SKS. Closest I ever came to buying a selective fire rifle is when Vector sold those UZI's a few years back. Wish I'd bought two of them!

Taurus 617 CCW
December 13, 2008, 11:09 AM
I would blue form him with the ATF and stay clear.

fingerbanger
December 16, 2008, 02:36 AM
I think you you turn him in. I would not normally say this ,but here is my logic. He is a fool or a liar or both, leaning toward both. He posted on craigslist. people informed about guns don't shop for them on CL. people looking for deals do. So he is putting some poor person at risk that may not be very knowledgeable about firearms or their laws. you have gone out of your way to infom him/her of this and yet he/she does not care. the last line is why i say turn the bastard in! just my op

bullseye308
December 16, 2008, 11:38 PM
I'm gonna have to agree on turning him in. :uhoh: Best case it is a fishing expedition and you will just get hassled just for having communicated with him. Worst case he sells it to some unsuspecting new gun owner trying to get something before osama takes office because some guy at work has him scared to get it now or never. The new gun owner just trying to get by and pay the bills wants to protect his family has no clue he has done wrong till the door gets kicked in and he has uninvited guests in the living room. That is the reason I would call the feds on him, for the family man, not the idiot that doesn't care that it is illegal to convert something.

We as responsible gun owners need to weed out the idiots from time to time. They do nothing to help our image, they flagrantly break the law, and they do things that are just dangerous and pass them off to unsuspecting people. Wether he converted it or it is malfunctioning is irrelevant, he knows now it is in violation and he doesn't care. He wants to pass it on and knows it is illegal to do so and doesn't care. How much more wrong can this be??? Make the call and be done with it. :fire:

expvideo
December 17, 2008, 04:10 AM
I think that the drug war is immoral and wrong. But that doesn't mean that drug dealers are not evil people. Drugs are illegal. Drug dealers are not your friends. Unregistered machine guns are illegal. Illegal arms dealers are NOT your friends. They are evil people as well. Just because they shouldn't be illegal doesn't mean that the people that sell them are patriots. The people that want to sell you illegal machine guns are dangerous criminals and nothing more.

Gord
December 17, 2008, 04:51 AM
FWIW, I'll toss my hat into the "tell ATF" ring too. There's a big philosophical difference between doing something naughty for your own enjoyment, and doing something naughty and then trying to pawn the responsibility and possible repercussions off on someone else. I'd much rather see this idiot go to jail than whatever poor joe unsuspectingly buys it off him.

armoredman
December 17, 2008, 05:09 AM
Turn him in, we'll leave the light on for him.

LIQUID SNAKE
December 17, 2008, 06:01 AM
Naaa......don't tattle tail. Just move on and don't bother with him. It does sound like bull**** though. Their are NO post 1986 class C's. Legal that is. If he's destined to get it from the ATF then that's his problem. He might get some unsuspecting stupe in trouble too, but that is still not you businesses. If your not a cop than don't do their job.

Still why an SKS, their junk. It only has ten rounds and is slow to reload. Now a lightning link in an AR15 or modding a Cobray pistol is something I can understand. Huh....some people.

Hey, I think I got it. If the full auto thing is not bull**** than I bet it's a malfunction. His safety sear must have broke. The guy started bragging that he did it on purpose instead of getting it fixed, though I dough he could ever duplicate the result in another gun. If this is the case than the resulting full auto is strictly a malfunction and thus is dangerous. The thing about it being legal is total bull**** and he's to damn dumb to know how much trouble he could get in if ATF does come after him, witch they may or may not depending on the branch that works that aria. That's evident by the fact that he's announcing it to the whole net. Either way just avoid the guy and let the real Law Enforcement Professionals deal with it. It's their job not yours.

armoredman
December 17, 2008, 06:11 AM
There is no firearm class "c".

LIQUID SNAKE
December 17, 2008, 06:53 AM
Title III then. I used to have all that title I, II, and III stuff memorized. I've let most of that knowledge pass away since it occurred to me that I'd never be able to get one. The price alone is a turn off. Even if I had the money, I still wouldn't spend 20 or $30,000 for a used gun. Full auto or not. If I had that kind of money I would spend it on something responsible Like a down payment on a new home or, a new truck.

Treo
December 25, 2008, 12:56 PM
If the guy told you he had a license (weather or not he does) you’re under no obligation to investigate his claim. When the guy gets busted if your name comes up you should have plausible deniability, “Hey officer he told me he was legal I told him I wasn’t interested. Any other questions feel free to ask my lawyer.”

If it was me I’d drop it and walk away I don’t work for the BATFE let them do their own job.

That said, all of the above is strictly my uneducated opinion if you’re really concerned you need to ask a lawyer

Frog48
December 25, 2008, 02:22 PM
If the guy told you he had a license (weather or not he does) you’re under no obligation to investigate his claim. When the guy gets busted if your name comes up you should have plausible deniability

Unfortunately, ignorance of the law is not a valid defense.

Supertac45
December 25, 2008, 06:08 PM
Probably a scam. Also illegal.

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