Article: Laser etching Ammo


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Echo Tango
December 10, 2008, 03:06 PM
Looks like these guys are trying to make bank, never mind the fact the whole concept is flawed.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=83210

WEAPONS OF CHOICE
Group asks states to track citizens' ammo
Organization claims it is 'saving lives 1 bullet at a time'

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Posted: December 09, 2008
10:05 pm Eastern


By Chelsea Schilling
2008 WorldNetDaily



Legislation to trace ammunition is pending in several states, and many gun owners are concerned that it is just another attempt by anti-gun groups to violate citizens' Second Amendment rights.

An organization known as Ammunition Accountability is pushing to make coding technology mandatory across the nation. Its website claims it is a group of "gun crime victims, industry representatives, law enforcement, public officials, public policy experts, and more" who are "saving lives one bullet at a time."

If states pass the legislation, manufacturers will be required to laser etch a serial number into the back of each bullet and the inside of cartridge casings, a patented process developed by Seattle, Wash., resident Russ Ford and his business partners, Steve Mace and John Knickerbocker.

According to Seattle Weekly, the men couldn't find an ammunition manufacturer to agree to stamp bullets, so they hired a lobbyist to push for state legislation to require the laser coding. They launched the Ammunition Accountability website and successfully introduced bills in the following 18 states: Alabama, Arizona, California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maryland, Mississippi, Missouri, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee and Washington.

Many of the proposals have died or stalled in committee; however the group is still urging lawmakers across the country to introduce the same kind of legislation in other states.

Ammunition Accountability explains its system would require states to establish databases to track coded ammunition for handguns and assault rifles. The databases would be funded by a surcharge of up to five cents per bullet.

According to its sample legislation, manufacturers would be forced to code all ammunition sold in the state. Private citizens and retail outlets would be required to dispose of all non-coded ammunition no later than Jan. 1, 2011.

Each vendor would record the following information about customers who buy the ammunition: Date, name, driver's license or ID number, date of birth and ammunition identifier. The businesses would maintain records for three years from the date of purchase.

"[W]hen a potential criminal purchases a box of 9mm cartridges, the box of ammunition and the bullets' coding numbers would be connected to the purchaser in a statewide database," Ammunition Accountability explains. "When a bullet is found at a crime scene, the code on the bullet can be read with a simple magnifying glass and then be run through a statewide database to determine who purchased the ammunition and where, providing a valuable investigative lead."

However, critics claim the system is severely flawed.

The National Rifle Association warns encoding ammunition would result in forfeiture of currently owned ammunition, separate registration for every box of ammo, outrageously expensive costs for police and private citizens and wasted taxpayer money that could be spent on traditional police programs.

The NRA also suggests private citizens could be required to keep records on anyone who uses or buys their ammunition even family members and friends. Furthermore, it said lawbreakers could find ways to prevent their bullets from being traced.

"Criminals could beat the system," the NRA claims. "A large percentage of criminals' ammunition (and guns) is stolen. Criminals could also collect ammunition cases from shooting ranges, and reload them with molten lead bullets made without serial numbers."

Some bloggers suggested criminals could simply modify their own rounds by removing the coding before firing them.

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Sinixstar
December 10, 2008, 03:37 PM
Aren't bullet pullers like, $10? I know you can get a simple file from the hardware store for less then $20.

So now for $30 - you have the capability of buying a box of ammo, and removing the encoding.

Also - when they say

"[W]hen a potential criminal purchases a box of 9mm cartridges, the box of ammunition and the bullets' coding numbers would be connected to the purchaser in a statewide database," Ammunition Accountability explains. "When a bullet is found at a crime scene, the code on the bullet can be read with a simple magnifying glass and then be run through a statewide database to determine who purchased the ammunition and where, providing a valuable investigative lead."

Do they mean the actual bullet, or the casing? If they mean bullet - this is not even laughable. How many times do LEOs found fired bullets just laying around at a crime scene?
If they really mean casing - then first off, it's concerning that these people are trying to write laws, but don't know the difference between the two - and second - use a revolver - no spent casings on the ground. Or - use one of those brass saver attachments, again - no brass on the ground. :rolleyes:

leadcounsel
December 10, 2008, 03:52 PM
Tell the dolts at http://ammunitionaccountability.org/ what you think about their briliant ideas.

tribbles
December 10, 2008, 04:10 PM
If states pass the legislation, manufacturers will be required to laser etch a serial number into the back of each bullet and the inside of cartridge casings, a patented process developed by Seattle, Wash., resident Russ Ford and his business partners, Steve Mace and John Knickerbocker.

According to Seattle Weekly, the men couldn't find an ammunition manufacturer to agree to stamp bullets, so they hired a lobbyist to push for state legislation to require the laser coding.

Sounds to me like three d-bags who'd do anything to make a buck. They'd retire on the licensing fees alone.

jbauch357
December 10, 2008, 04:15 PM
it all comes back to money - the whole thing was started by a couple guys that came up with an idea but then didn't have any companies that would buy into it so they went to politics...

Mace and Ford spent four and a half years and about $200,000 securing the patent for their ammunition tracking system. But once that patent was in place and they had formed a company, the unambiguously named Ammunition Coding System, to market the product, they couldn't find a manufacturer willing to consider stamping their bullets. So they focused their efforts on convincing lawmakers

JoeSlomo
December 10, 2008, 04:28 PM
Hmmm...

This organization is doing nothing but trying to make bank at the expense of our 2nd amendment rights imo.

This is a lose / lose proposition all around.

Citizens lose out big by having to fork out even more cash for rounds, AND losing all that cash invested in reloaders, AND having to pay additional taxes for local and state database systems and the people needed to maintain and operate them. How many citizens will be questioned about stolen ammo and brass?

LEO's lose out because the price of THEIR ammo will also increase eating up a larger portion of their budget.

Business loses out due to the higher cost of operations, and the elimination of reloading products.

The ONLY people that win are....yup, criminals, who will be smart enough to USE STOLEN AMMO, and of course politicians and lobbyists, who will make cash for pushing this crap legislation through, well.

I would like to track down the source of funding for this company, and threaten a boycott of any goods or services offered by them if they continue to fund this ridiculous company.

With enough gun owners, their investment capital could dry up, protecting our 2nd amendment rights.

BBQLS1
December 10, 2008, 04:38 PM
IMO, this is a group trying to cash in on technology they've developed.

The problem is, those that don't think before they make a law are liable to think: "This is a great idea!!!!! Brilliant!!!!!"

Please write your state and federal reps and respectfully tell them this is a bad idea.

CWL
December 10, 2008, 04:44 PM
I see shotgun sales increasing multifold if this stupidity gets passed.

Crash_Test_Dhimmi
December 10, 2008, 04:46 PM
ACT@ammunitionaccountability.com

I agree with Leadcounsel, tell these defacto bullet tax hikers where they can put their technology.

Bubba613
December 10, 2008, 05:01 PM
To me this was the kicker:

According to Seattle Weekly, the men couldn't find an ammunition manufacturer to agree to stamp bullets, so they hired a lobbyist to push for state legislation to require the laser coding.

They couldn't sell the thing commercially so they hire a lobbyist to make it a law to use their product.
How many crimes have gun databases solved? (Answer, zero). Why is this going to be any better? How easy will it be to defeat? What about ammo sitting around in people's houses? I have shot ammo made for WW2. Others have shot stuff made for WWI and earlier. Too much of that stuff around to insure compliance.
The whole idea stinks. Fortunately it is so obvious that it has no support anyway.

AllAmerican
December 10, 2008, 05:13 PM
It died here last year and will die again. Business types arent gonna pass a law that only benefits the 3 guys who are the company in question.

If Im not mistaken they are the company that owns the rights to this deal.

Its BS and everyone knows it.

AREnvy
December 10, 2008, 05:28 PM
I don't recall where I recently found this image...it may have been here at THR...but it's relevant!

leadcounsel
December 10, 2008, 05:57 PM
I wrote them. Their email box rejected my email because it is FULL. I'm guessing it's not from praise! :neener:

edSky
December 10, 2008, 06:10 PM
Gee, what is to prevent bullets from being sold like drugs. Art buys them, and sells them "illegally" to Barbara, who sells them to Clark. Art says "I dunno, I stored them in my shed and what do you know, the shed was broken into.

What are they going to do, jail Art because he didn't guard his shed?

It's got to be the stupidest idea yet.

scottgun
December 10, 2008, 06:31 PM
Will we need spent casing shredders to prevent identity theft? It would be pretty easy for a criminal to grab a hand full of matching caliber casings at the range and then toss them out at his crime scene.

soggysod
December 10, 2008, 10:26 PM
or inspired by a previous poster, we can just let it pass, and start selling ammo second hand! unless the law says its illegal to sell used or second hand ammo. i think i can afford a few new ones for the arsenal with this endeavor!

no i agree this is ignorant. only 1/10 or a percent of all firearm deaths are with a legally owned firearm, sooo common sense tells you that their ammo is probably not legally owned!

soggysod

Auburn1992
December 11, 2008, 06:39 AM
Anyone know which states are still considering this?

I bet the TN one died, but just want to be sure.

xsquidgator
December 11, 2008, 08:43 AM
AREnvy - That rocks!

highlander 5
December 11, 2008, 08:58 AM
anyone here remember the brilliant idea of tagants in the powders used for reloading 20+ years ago? It died the same way,just not feasible

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