Is the 870 still the gold standard?

[Smith357]

I have been out of the pump gun realm for many years concentrating on vintage S&W wheelguns. I have a Citori for clay games and I am currently thinking about a good pump gun that will be set up as a tactical gun. I know the 870 used to be the one of the best guns for that job, but that was 10-15 years ago. is it still the gold standard or has something new come along that I should be aware of.

Also I have heard that Remington has made some changes, but don't know exactly what they are and how they impact the gun. Though generally when they make a change it's to cut costs which is never good. So is older better?

thanks for any help

[Animal Mother]

I think most people still consider the 870 the gold standard, although the Mossberg 500 has gained quite a bit in popularity as well.

[zombienerd]

Having shot both the 870 and 500 on numerous occasions, I prefer the 500. That's just my opinion, though :)

The 870 is a great gun. The 500 is a great gun... I just like the "feel" of the 500 a little better.

If you're in the market, check out both of them, find what "feels" right :)

Also, the 500 has just as many, if not more, available "Tactical" add ons as the 870 does.

[jmr40]

Yes!

[stalkingbear]

The 870 is the better built/designed shotgun. I don't understand how anybody could like a 500 better except for the tang safety. The 500s fore ends just fit too loose and rattle too much for my tastes-that makes them feel really cheaply built. Also I've gotten too many 500s to repair vs 870s to have faith in them.

[Dave McCracken]

Yes.....

[Big Daddy Grim]

I like the 870 and I have both

[travistheone]

I have owned 500 and 870's. It is my opinion that the 500 is quicker to use, safety and action release. This is further appreciated if a lefty by nature, or circumstance.

[Vicious-Peanut]

No...







;)

[inSight-NEO]

I cant speak about the 870 as I own a Benelli SuperNova tactical. Personally, compared to all of the other sub-$500 shottys out there, this gun has no equal IMHO. However, my next shotgun will be a Remington 870 Police as I am looking for an even "heavier duty" weapon for regular use. Plus, the Benellis are quite expensive when it comes to replacing parts.:scrutiny:

[Dday]

Hard question to answer - they both are solid performers. I guess it comes down to personal preference and intended use. Here are a few 870 facts that might help you. (I'm partial to 870):
* Continous production since 1950
* The most popular shotgun in firearms history
* Since initial release, hundreds of variants produced
* Over 8 million produced/sold
* 39 model variants currently in production (hundreds more if your consider various barrel lengths, gagues, chokes, etc.)
* A variant to meet any shooters needs
* Proven fundamentally reliability - when you pull the trigger, it goes bang
* Spare parts universally available
* Moderately priced
* Many 1950's built 870's are still in use today
* A distinctive sounding action - home intruders seem to vanish when they hear it cyclying

[ShowMe2]

Yes...Remington has made millions and millions of them for a reason. It is THE law enforcement shotgun at every level in the U.S. by a wide margin.

[Smith357]

I know about the Mossberg 500 and I am not really interested in it unless Mossberg has improved their quality over the last 10 years or Remington quality has dropped, I looked at an express today and it was a hunk of junk. I'm going to have to find a 500 to handle.

I wanted to get an 870 Police, but they have become collectible, and therefore very expensive for a gun I plan on using hard. I'm thinking about an older gun to save money for add on parts, and older guns seem to be better made. I plan on shooting the snot out of it, and not worrying to much about how pretty it looks, but it has to be a quality piece of gear.

[mljdeckard]

I bought a 870 Express synthetic a several years ago to have a gun to beat up. I have done so. Cases of S&B birdshot, muddy in the back of the truck, cold, hot, wet, dirty, doesn't matter. Chik-chek, BANG!, every single time.

I don't mind the Mossberg, but I actually grew up with my dad's old 760 .257 Roberts, so I was already used to the Remington controls.

[nekwah]

I have a Rem. 870 supermag so I can shoot 3 and a half loads. I originally bought it to make into a tactical although i have only got as far as a pistol grip. Abuddy of mine has a 500, its a nice gun and i love the safety but its low quality and has a surprising numper of plastic parts. I have a powder coat on mine though and im dissapointed to find it rusts quit easily but it might have been because i put in a gun carrier that could have contained moisture.

[BP44]

I have a wingmaster and I love it but my new gold standarg\d is my Super Black Eagle II:evil:

[RP88]

I like my Moss 500. I will admit that 870's beat out the 500s, but when compared to the 590s...well, my opinion changes.

[inSight-NEO]

I guess it all depends on what "grade" of 870 you are referring to. From what I understand, older 870's along with current Police models and possibly the marine magnums, are very well made. However, as I mentioned before, I think when looking at typical "consumer" shotguns, Benelli takes the prize. Once you go above this range, its all up to speculation and preference. Here you are dealing with the likes of military grade Mossbergs, Remington Police 870's and any of the Benelli "M" series, to name a few. At this point "nostalgia" takes a back seat to "state of the art".

[AndyJ]

"At this point "nostalgia" takes a back seat to "state of the art". Second thread I have seen you bash the 870 platform.

Hmph. I can't even consider a Benelli for these reasons.

It does not have a proven track record-- maybe in 20 years.

Replacement parts are beyond ridiculously high. $500 for a used barrel? Christ.

Semi-autos will not hold up in a harsh environment. That from my boy who has been to the Desert 2X.

Nostalgia vs state of the art? :what: You need to get your hands around a vintage Wingmaster or even an M37 if you want a blast from the past. Newest is not always best.

The beauty of the 870 platform is that it is everyman's shotgun. Modularity --easily interchanging parts; configurations to suit every need, ready parts availability at a decent price, a simple operating system and the biggest factor is that it just runs and runs.

[inSight-NEO]

Second thread I have seen you bash the 870 platform.
I dont remember bashing the 870 platform in general. I was only referring to the current rendition of the 870 Express. Look closer...its there.


Replacement parts are beyond ridiculously high. $500 for a used barrel? Christ.

I will agree...I do not like this fact as well. This is why I will soon be adding an 870P to my collection.

Semi-autos will not hold up in a harsh environment. That from my boy who has been to the Desert 2X.

Benelli also makes pump shotguns. This is what I have (supernova tactical). Your reference to semi-autos is a blanket statement...Its a known fact that semi-auto weapons, of any brand, are more prone to malfunction(s) than "manually" operated weapons. Say what you will, Benelli makes fine products. There is no reason to dismiss the brand simply because it doesnt have a "track record" of decades. I obviously stepped into the Remington fanboy club on this one.

[AndyJ]

Yeah, I drink the 870 kool-aid. Before you do the 870p deal, check out an older Wingmaster-- one with the chrome bolt and shell carrier. They are still around for less than $300. You can easily upgrade them to Police standards. Heavier sear spring, carrier follower dog spring and maybe a steel extractor. $15 bucks worth of parts there. 18.5 or 20" barrel and you have a multi-purpose beauty that will last another generation.

[inSight-NEO]

I will consider that. After all, saving a few $$$ is always nice. BTW- I have seen NEW barrels for my gun going for roughly $450. Heh, its still a bad show either way. I believe the price is due to the fact that the Benelli barrels are chrome lined and more importantly, imported from Italy.

[single stack]

Is the 870 still the gold standard?

No. The 870 Wingmaster has slipped from first place in the pump shot gun world.

The Browning BPS has passed it by, not by advances in quality but
by maintaining quality. Sadly, Remington has suffered a setback in
quality control over the years. An older 870 or Model 12 will give the
BPS a run for the money, not a new Wingmaster.

The 870 Express and Mossberg 500 are a good shotguns for the price.
They still can't measure up to a Wingmaster.

SS

[Smith357]

Before you do the 870p deal, check out an older Wingmaster-- one with the chrome bolt and shell carrier. They are still around for less than $300.

After seeing the new models I have made the choice to go with a vintage 870, I was leaning this way in the first place, but after hearing the feedback and seeing one up close it solidified my position. I saw a vintage Wingmaster 12ga. 20" rifle sights on GunBroker that was well in my price range. The wood was beat to crap but I'm planning on replacing that anyway.

I'm going to have to get my hands on a Browning, but I'm guessing there are not to many tacticool ad ons for it. And building a tacticool pumper is my main goal here.

The Bennellis are fine firearms but initial cost and aftermarket parts availability cut it from my list.

[c5_nc]

This is probably not going to go over well, I've shot a single 870 and only handled the norinco 87 ultra (Chinese copy of 870 that police issue there) but it has a extended tube to fit a extra shell and fiber/night front an rear sights. Didn't shot it but seemed solid for $149 new. The 870 I shot only had a front iron sight, which is just odd to me being a handgun and rifle user. I don't hunt, I was thinking of picking up one. It would be for rare shoting at the range and home defense (where the sights and extra round are a big plus). There is a used Charles Daly Semi for $225 used locally, trying to deside between those two.

[Dksimon]

The older 870's are better than the current ones. The fit and finish is alot better. but I think that the 870 is still near the top.

[zachsm]

I use my shotguns harshly and for that reason I cannot like my 870E no matter how much I try. I bought it purely out of the fact that I wanted a gun with a steel receiver (and most people here only like it because of that). After breaking an extractor it left a bitter taste in my mouth. Changing parts out on the 500 is not easy, but at least Mossberg thought it out beforehand. Remington just didn't think anything through. The lifter pinches **** and plantlife because of its position. It does keep stuff out, but once stuff gets in there you have to cycle it sometimes. Someone needs to be slapped for the position of the slide release. Cross-bolt safety is ok, but other manufacturer's found better locations like on the bottom of the tang or the back of the receiver like the Mossberg. The action is shaky and loud on the Mossberg but its better than tight. With the 870, the action gets gritty and gooey with dirt/lake scum after awhile. Even after saying that I bet its possible that you can loosen or tighten it on both shotguns although I've never tried.

There isn't much to a pump shotgun and it feels like Remington tried their hardest to **** it up.

Has anybody ever tried moving the slide release as a modification?

[riverdog]

The 870 Wingmaster is the gold standard. The 870 Express is a budget version that has a few lesser quality parts.

[SwampWolf]

Okay, this won't sit well in certain quarters but you asked for opinions. For a long, long time, in the arena of pump shotguns, the "gold standard" was the Winchester Model 12, with the Ithaca 37 and Remington 31 being worthy runner-ups. Around 1950, the Remington 870 arrived on the scene and, for reasons of extreme reliability, good handling, good workmanship and,especially, its deliberately planned low cost of manufacture, before long, it became the new gold standard- but not necessarily for the same reasons and criteria the traditional standard implied.

There's little question that the 870, along with Mossberg's 500 and, to a much lesser extent, Winchester models 1200/1300, for good reasons became America's most popular shotgun(s). But my pick for the gold standard in pump shotguns for the 21st century is the Browning BPS. The lines, features and workmanship of this gun sets new standards in the realm of slide-action shotguns-in the same way the old model 12 did for so many years before the 870 came along and usurped the throne.

[Girodin]

I have have onwed and/or shot many of each of the shotguns being discussed here, 870, 500, and supernova. They are all serviceable weapons. I personally prefer an older wing master to any of them. I like Benellis, I've shot many of them, used them to hunt etc, but I really don't see the super nova as having any edge on the 870.

As I said I personally like the 870 the most. I wouldn't feel horrible if I only had the others though. To someone who hasn't yet developed a preference I would suggest handling some guns and shooting them if possible.

[Girodin]

Cross-bolt safety is ok, but other manufacturer's found better locations like on the bottom of the tang or the back of the receiver like the Mossberg.

If you want to use a knoxx stock with a pistol grip then the back of the receiver is a horrible place for a safety. I know that is not a consideration for everyone but they are popular stocks and some people really prefer them.

[CZ223]

About a year ago I bought a Mossberg 590 because I had heard so much good about them. It is a tough shotgun and there is nothing wrong with it. The problem is that there really is nothing to love about it either. The old 870 Wingmasters are smoother than smooth for the most part. The newer express models are not as smooth but, are pretty tough just the same. I recently bought an 870 HD that was very slightly used. I really am not sure that it had ever been fired to tell the truth. It is waaay smoother than my Mossberg, which, by the way, I plan on keeping. I plan on putting it, and my shoulder, through their paces with some very stout loads in the not too distant future. At the same time I will bring the 590 along just for the sake of comparison. I cannot speak to the quality of the Browning or the Bennelii, but the Benneli Nova looks like a space gun to me.:D

[jmr40]

If people would just learn how to operate the crossbolt safety on a Remington you will find it much quicker and easier to operate. Even for left handed shooters. I mount the gun and disengage the safety using the "2nd pad" on my trigger finger. I place the gun back "on safe" by reaching behind the trigger guard with my middle finger. Lefty's just reverse the process. It can be engaged and disengaged easily without ever removing your finger from the trigger guard if you like.

Before being accused of unsafe gunhandling remember the gun is on safe and my finger never enters the trigger guard until after the gun is mounted and pointed at the target. This is the same finger movement used to disengage a Garand or Ruger Mini 14. With the Mossberg type safety it is impossible to disengage the safety with your hand in the correct firing position and most shooters will take the gun "off safe" before mounting it to the shoulder in order to reposition the hand for firing.

I am of the opinion that the Mossberg safety is in the worst possible location. It is not on the tang as many state. A double has the safety on the tang. A Mossberg safety is located on the top of the receiver in a location where it can easily be damaged or accidentely be knocked to the "off safe" position.

[ironvic]

I have an older police surplus Wingmaster with the short barrel and walnut stock. It's ultra smooth, accurate and reliable. The SG has a solid feel and jammed up the slide only once while I was practicing dry-fire after I short stroked the slide.

Other than that one time, it's been a good companion and house gun.

[Dave McCracken]

Lessee, "50s technology vs State Of The Art"....

I watched the video from Eric Clapton's Crossroads benefit concert recently. Guitar god after god played their rock, country and blues on Stratocasters, Telecasters and Les Pauls.

Those were first made in the 50s, right? So were those marvelous Fender amps that sang like angels.

Unless one has gone completely to the side of square handguns, the Colt Python and S&W Model 19, 27,25,29, etc still do their part in protecting lives, providing recreation and will for generations with care.

While I admit that the 54 Chevy that was my first vehicle purchase is not the car our Prius or my Cherokee is, many old things from the 50s are still hard to beat.

The 1911 was first conceived a century ago. Many of us still regard it as the ebst defensive pistol yet devised.

Here's what I think about the Nova.

The triggers are horrible.

The stocks are not easily replaceable nor adapted to shooters differing much from the mean.

Forearm rattle is a minor annoyance until one NEEDS to be very, very quiet, whether hunting wabbits or men. Then, a major prob.

The 870 is as adaptable as a Lego set, useful as a SAK, and as American as apple pie.

The defense rests....

[ReadyontheRight]

I'd say it's the "IRON" standard of shotguns.

Gold is for the mistress -- silver for the maid --
Copper for the craftsman cunning at his trade.
"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall,
"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all...." R.K.

(Edited to add: Yes, I know the poem is deeper than weaponry, but I still think this first verse makes a great point about weapons. :) )

[ReadyontheRight]

I have an older police surplus Wingmaster with the short barrel and walnut stock. It's ultra smooth, accurate and reliable.

Me too. I actually had it out just today to make sure it was ready to roll. I don't shoot it as much as a trap or hunting shotgun, but it's always ready for me if something goes bump in the night. I will probably add a longer magazine onto it someday, but it feels good the way it is.

A well-shot 870 Wingmaster is just plain old perfect.

[monkyboy1975]

If people would just learn how to operate the crossbolt safety on a Remington you will find it much quicker and easier to operate. Even for left handed shooters. I mount the gun and disengage the safety using the "2nd pad" on my trigger finger. I place the gun back "on safe" by reaching behind the trigger guard with my middle finger.

+1
This is really easy, I've always wondered what the beef was about the 870's safety.:scrutiny: To bad they decided to quit making the Special Field, I really loved that straight stock:(

[inSight-NEO]

Lessee, "50s technology vs State Of The Art"....

I should have known that my "state of the art" quip would become a source of controversy.:rolleyes:
It was just an off-the-cuff statement. Not something to be taken so literally.

Here's what I think about the Nova.

The triggers are horrible.

The stocks are not easily replaceable nor adapted to shooters differing much from the mean.

Forearm rattle is a minor annoyance until one NEEDS to be very, very quiet, whether hunting wabbits or men. Then, a major prob.

I was referring to the SuperNova (tactical model, to be exact) not the Nova. They are not the same gun. Benelli, with the SuperNova, has for the most part taken care of the fore-end rattle which existed with the Nova.

In terms of the trigger, well..I have no complaints. But, Benelli has improved this on the SuperNova as well. Either way...I pull trigger..gun goes BOOM!!! Thats all I truly expect out of the trigger when it comes to an HD shotgun.

As far as stocks go, the SuperNova (tactical) allows for 3 different stocks. I have 2 of them (comfortech and suregrip/pistol grip). It took me all of 5 minutes to make the swap from one to the other. The Nova does not allow for this. Now, actually finding these stocks can become a pain unless you know where to look.

For my money, when speaking of a new and currently manufactured sub-$500 shotgun, the Benellis equal and in some respects, surpass most others within that range. Does this make it the BEST..not necessarily. But, it gets tiresome hearing all of the "Benelli bashing" when it is, in fact, a very capable and strong contender in todays market.

The 1911 was first conceived a century ago. Many of us still regard it as the ebst defensive pistol yet devised.

This one I have to agree with. But, I do love my Sig Sauer P220..even if it is only 9 months old (a.k.a. "state of the art"). :D

[inSight-NEO]

the Benneli Nova looks like a space gun to me.

Well..I did always think it'd be cool to be a Stormtrooper.:rolleyes:

Maybe Im just not old-fashioned enough. Either way...you guys have a splendid evening.

[AndyJ]

NEO- I gotta give you props for holding your ground in a dignified and mature fashion. ;)

I am building up an old school 870p style gun on a vintage Wingmaster base. I will post some pics when I get it done. I bet you like what you see.

[inSight-NEO]

NEO- I gotta give you props for holding your ground in a dignified and mature fashion.

I am building up an old school 870p style gun on a vintage Wingmaster base. I will post some pics when I get it done. I bet you like what you see.

I appreciate that. Also, it sounds like you have an interesting project there. Future pics will certainly be welcome!

[GlenJ]

I had a M500 a year ago and sold it. I just picked up a used 870 Police Magnum with a wood stock for $250. The 870 is a way nicer and better shooting and feeling gun. I would though still get a 500 if I found a good deal on a used one.

[ArmedBear]

The 870 never was the gold standard.

I have one and like it.

My next pump, however, will be an Ithaca if I want an "I love it" gun, or a Mossberg if I want a gun to keep under the seat in case some hunting opportunity pops up. The 500 balances well and feels good, to me, and it's CHEAP but a good gun. The Ithaca feels best to me, but isn't cheap.

Many would say the Model 12 is the gold standard. That may be true, but the things command collector prices these days, so I don't think they're worth the money as a working gun.

The Nova is a plastic shotgun that works. Gold standard, though? Never was, never will be.

[tenbears]

The Remington 870 has a longer proven service record, used with police and military. The only reason the Mossberg has gained popularity is because it was adopted by the military some years ago, but it didn't prove as reliable as the 870.
Mossberg has improved as is reliable, but for the record I would pick the brick of pumps, the 870.

[Javelin]

Tromix converted Saiga-12 anyone?

[SwampWolf]

The only reason the Mossberg has gained popularity is because it was adopted by the military some years ago, but it didn't prove as reliable as the 870.

Who says?

[buttrap]

I have a older 20 inch police 870 from the early 70s and a newer express. Out of the cosmetic deal both seem to work the same.

[AndyJ]

Neo-- Here is a pic of the 870 project I promised earlier as it nears completion.

Late 80's Express Magnum. Metal trigger plate and no dimples in the mag tube. American walnut 870p stock set and Remington 2 shot extension with barrel clamp.

http://www.texasinterceptors.com/images/guns/new_870.jpg

[inSight-NEO]

Andy...I like it!!

[inSight-NEO]

The Nova is a plastic shotgun that works. Gold standard, though? Never was, never will be.

Yep...people say the same thing about a Glock, and....
Regarding the "gold standard"; I never claimed the Benelli to be this. However, Im willing to bet that more than a few M4 owners would disagree with you. ;) Of course, then we are speaking of SA shotguns. I guess that does not really apply to this discussion.

[Craft714]

long has has the 870 pump been around?

[Virginian]

Yes, the 870 was and is the 'gold standard' of pump guns. And, it sticks sideways in the craw of everyone who owns and prefers something... anything, else. But, that doesn't change a thing.
It does not have the "machined and/or hand fitted all steel" parts of an Ithaca 37 or a Winchester Model 12 - and all it did was run them out of the regular production marketplace. It works. It fits an awful lot of people real well. It is available in everything from 12 gauge military HD dress to a .410 upland gun. In one guise or another, it has been available reasonably priced since it's inception. The military and eleven dozen police departments have been using it for half a century plus. Any accessory ever made is available for it. Parts are plentiful and cheap. The only gun able to even remotely threaten the 870's ongoing position has been Mossberg, because they build a pretty good gun for a good price, too. The Browning BPS is undoubtedly a very well made gun, but a lot of people do not like the bottom loader - have to load thru the magazine design, or the controls/feel of a BPS as well as an 870. Winchester aficianados are still pining over the long gone 12, and only a relative few have embraced the replacement 1200/1300 series.
Pump gun people are possibly more practical and less pretentious. That may be one reason the attributes of paying more money for an I-talian gun that does not one thing better haven't been able to win over more pump gunners, too. (couldn't resist :evil:)
They are coming up on 10 million made. Think about that one. That is a bunch of folks. The design was/is so very good, that it was modified and made into the most successful semi automatic shotgun ever made, as well.
If you prefer something else, I just wish you well and salute you as a fellow shooter, but to pretend the 870 isn't the battleship in the bathtub is to pretend the U.S. economy still doesn't drive the whole world's economic tides.

[76shuvlinoff]

I don't hunt but with this at the ready I don't feel "hunted" either.

[Dave McCracken]

Craft, the 870 was introduced in 1950.

A couple things....

The 870 is the most produced CIVILIAN arm ever made. Only military rifles like the Garand, the Mauser 98 and of course both the AK and AR platforms have more made.

Besides being the goto shotguns for most US LE agencies, it was the tool of choice for a few million hunters and still is. And for both groups, part of the attraction is that they keep on working despite neglect, abuse, and bad conditions of use.

At the range yesterday, I noted a variety of pumpguns mixed in with the Perazzis, Berettas and Brownings. Most were 870s.

Tom Held, who posts here sometimes, showed me a mint, repeat mint, 870TC made in the 70s he just got in. It had never been assembled. We both marveled at that. Most 870s are used and used often. The things hold up.

Mechanically, they are immortal. 200 K of shells means several owners and a very slick cycle.

One of the reasons I hold these in high regard is the modular design. Even a dunce like me with ten thumbs can disassemble and clean every part of an 870 without having to chase small parts that leapt under the refrigerator.

Between Remington and aftermarket vendors, you can get any style of stock you want from marblecake Walnut sculpted to your personal dimensions to plastic stuff in Baghdad camo. Same for barrels, sights, even trigger groups.

There's other good pump shotguns out there, but Remington's favorite product has whipped them and taken their lunch money.

[SwampWolf]

Yes, the 870 was and is the 'gold standard' of pump guns. And, it sticks sideways in the craw of everyone who owns and prefers something... anything, else. But, that doesn't change a thing.
It does not have the "machined and/or hand fitted all steel" parts of an Ithaca 37 or a Winchester Model 12 - and all it did was run them out of the regular production marketplace.

You're right, of course. The 870 prevailed, not because it did anything better than pump guns of the era or at any other time period, but because it was cleverly designed to be cheaper to manufacture. And that counts for a lot. It put a quality pump shotgun into the hands of those who could not otherwise afford one and also into the hands of experienced shooters who not only could appreciate the superb design parameters of the 870 but didn't mind paying less for an equivalent shotgun.

But if "gold standard" means something more than a collection of stamped parts that work as well and as long as anything else in the marketplace (ergo, the "machined and/or hand fitted all steel parts of an Ithaca or a Winchester Model 12"), then the 870 will have to take a backseat to those venerable examples you cited- and to the Browning BPS! :)

[Clint C]

Its a great gun, getting alittle to expensive for a brand new one. Heck the wingmaster is like $650.00 around here.

If the government is buying them in bulk, that means they are buying them cheap, cheap, cheap. which means they are building them cheap and hiking the price up on us.

If you are going to buy a cheap shotgun you might as well pay a cheap price.

I have recomended the 870 to many people and they have bought them. Its a great gun but so is a Mossberg. For home defense I'd go with the Mossberg.

Personally, I shoot a Browning bps, after having this gun I'll never go back to anything else. Now that is a quality hunting gun.

I also prefer a tang saftey.

I need to change my name to the babbler.

[Nautilus]

Just my opinion, but if I were buying an 870 it would be an older model. They just don't feel like the same anymore. Pick up a new 870 in a gun shop and then walk over to the used rack and pick up a 25 year old 870. The 25 year old 870 looks and feels like more gun for less money.

If it's a home defense "tactical" type shotgun, I'd go with the Mossberg 590. For everything else I'd take a vintage 870.

[76shuvlinoff]

Exactly what is new vs what is old?
Is it possible to find the date of manufacture for an 870?

Thanks

[frogomatic]

the thing I would give remington the 'gold standard' for, is in finding ways to simplify production to reduce costs. If you can build something, remington can find a way to build somthing very similar for much cheaper. I mean no disrespect to remington, they do (or at least did) produce good quality guns, at a good price. The 700 and the 870 are the best examples of this. There are better options available, but those options are considerably more expensive. a pre-64 model 70 vs. a 700. The model 70 was a far superior gun, but was also much more expensive. Pre-64 Model 12 vs. 870. The model 12 is a much better gun, but is again much more expensive. The 700 and 870 both do their job well enough. Are they the pinnacle of their respective types? Not by a long shot. Cost effectiveness is their way of business, nothing wrong with that, but every choice has it's trade offs.

[Lee Lapin]

Is the 870 still the gold standard?

Far as I'm concerned, it is. Don't care if your mileage varies though.

Is it possible to find the date of manufacture for an 870?

Call 1-800-243-9700 (yeah, I memorized that number a long time ago) during business hours (in NC) and go through the phone tree. When you get to the right place, just give 'em the full serial number, and they can tell you the year it was made. There's no other really reliable way I know of, barrel codes work for barrels but barrels on 870s get swapped like socks....

lpl

[flyboy1788]

If you are going to buy a cheap shotgun you might as well pay a cheap price.

they had new 12ga 870 expresses at cabelas for 250 in your choice of wood or syn. stock. Thats pretty reasonable for a new shotgun if you ask me.

[goose2]

I used to think that the 870 was the gold standard. Now I think it is the bronze standard.
In my opinion the 870 is not as well built as it used to be. They seem to be using cheaper thinner metal than they used to. I have seen 3 of them break on the for end metal rods. We just welded them up and went to hunting until they broke again.
I think it is a toss up between the Benelli super nova and the Browning BPS as to the gold standard these days.

[Leadhead]

I keep hearing all these opinions about new 870's not being as good. If a shotgun this popular was dropping quality then there would be someone out there proving it. Until I see actual data that shows me different I will continue to believe the newer guns are just as good as the older guns. I got that info from a 870 professional. If there are other 870 pro's here speak up. That guy changed the Express to a police version every day for police departments. I tend to believe someone who does that for a living. Scattergun Bob is the name he uses. He posts on The Firing Line. Ask him yourself.

I like the 870.
Mine are all older and work with any shell I've ever stuffed in the tube but I hear alot of people complaining of their brand new 870's not digesting cheap bird shot!
Everyone blames it on the cheap ammo but in my opinion for a "gold standard" rating a new 870 should not require polishing or specific ammo to function....
I had a 590 A1 for a while and it was good but I found I liked the feel of the 870 better....I liked the tang safety and action release on the mossberg but the action release makes the trigger reach a little longer and this is noticable for me.

[c_jackson]

Considering the 870 has been around since Spring of 1950, I'd give a resounding "YES, Sir!" I own one myself, have a variety of barrels and mag extension tubes for it, as well as a collapsible stock, a folding stock and a number of assorted goodies tailored for my Remington. I also have a personal preference for my Master Key system when I'm on duty weekends, which incorporates a Remington 870. Most of my friends and contemporaries like the M204, I prefer my setup for my own reasons.

Yes, the 870 IS the "gold-standard" in my opinion when it comes to shotguns. It's like my M1911A1, old iron is tested and true iron. Generations of men ( and women) can't be wrong. I don't have seniority here, I realize, but I hope my opinion might mean something.

C Jackson

[inSight-NEO]

I can only add one more thing, then I think its time for me to retire my comments for this particular thread. I just wonder if Benelli had made a weapon (SuperNova for instance) much, much easier to accessorize and much, much for cost-effective in terms of replacement parts (not to mention availability), where they would stand at this point? To me, these before-mentioned problems are the ONLY thing keeping the sub-$500 Benellis from taking away titles from the likes of Mossberg or Remington or at least giving them one helluva run. This is, of course, comparing the modern iteration of these guns. Regrettably, and this coming from a SuperNova owner, its these less than cost effective downfalls that will more than likely keep the Benelli in the "less popular" and "less practical" category. Sigh.....

But, I will tilt my hat to the Remington 870 for its long-standing endearment in the hearts of many shooters, regardless of their needs and to the Mossberg 590 for continuing to give it one helluva go! All brands have their advantages/disadvantages, but we all love our shotguns regardless (for the most part). Happy shooting all.....

[coyotehitman]

Wingmasters are still fine quality, Express models have a few corners cut, but they are still great weapons IMO.

870's have filled squad car racks for for a long, long, time. I do not think they would have lasted if they were not well made and dependable.

[HB]

870's feel ten times better to me than a 500. Just more solid-er if you know what I mean :D

[bushmaster1313]

Attached is a gold standard you can make on a budget!

1972 870 Wingmaster receiver,
1976 Wingmaster barrel cut to at least 18 1/2 inches,
Choate 2 shot extension,
Wingmaster walnut stocks (I think they match the receiver),
Brass bead sight (I like polishing it when it gets dull).
I spent $250 for the package from my local gun shop this year.

I added a Limbsaver pad ($31.00 plus shipping)
I added a bright green magazine follower with the little nib so you can feel it in the dark, from MidwayUSA ($5.00)

I called Choate who said you do not need the barrel bracket with a two shot magazine extension, but they said it will bend if you drop the gun on the extension.

What else could be more golden?

[Leadhead]

What else could be more golden?

Maybe a mag extension clamp....:D

[Beagle-zebub]

The Browning BPS has passed it by, not by advances in quality but
by maintaining quality. Sadly, Remington has suffered a setback in
quality control over the years. An older 870 or Model 12 will give the
BPS a run for the money, not a new Wingmaster.

Yep.

However, you indicated that you wanted to trick the thing out, which isn't a BPS thing, although they do make a nice high-capacity model. What would be interesting to know is whether Ithaca 37 add-ons (which I would guess exist) can be used on the BPS.

[Sinixstar]

You're right, of course. The 870 prevailed, not because it did anything better than pump guns of the era or at any other time period, but because it was cleverly designed to be cheaper to manufacture. And that counts for a lot. It put a quality pump shotgun into the hands of those who could not otherwise afford one and also into the hands of experienced shooters who not only could appreciate the superb design parameters of the 870 but didn't mind paying less for an equivalent shotgun.

But if "gold standard" means something more than a collection of stamped parts that work as well and as long as anything else in the marketplace (ergo, the "machined and/or hand fitted all steel parts of an Ithaca or a Winchester Model 12"), then the 870 will have to take a backseat to those venerable examples you cited- and to the Browning BPS!


I would have to agree 100%. Popular does not mean "best". It means - popular. Case in point - the ford F-150 pickup truck was most bought vehicle of 2006 (latest numbers I could find) at just under 800,000 for the year (us market). Does that mean the F-150 is the "gold standard" of car making? not by a long shot. It means it was popular.

I tend to not put a lot of faith in "gold standard" comparisons. If there was a perfect shotgun, there would only be 1 shotgun on the market. People have different needs, wants, desires, and uses - of which any particular gun may or may not live up to. One man's "gold standard" might not even be in another's consideration.

If you like the 870, and it fits your needs - great. If not, there's plenty else to choose from.

[Leadhead]

Well I don't hear a lot of people saying that. And if you think that ammo can't be made badly you haven't been around guns much. My 870 has problems with Federal ammo including their Flite Control buckshot. That's hardly cheap ammo. In fact it's quite expensive for shotgun ammo. I also have problems with any Federal ammo that has hi brass. I've never had that problem with any other ammo. A gun shop owner I've known and trusted for decades (and I don't trust many retailers of any kind) told me other people were having similar problems with Federal ammo in different guns. Now that sure sounds like the ammo to me.

Lots of things can cause a gun to have problems with ammo. I just had problems with my Sig P220 shooting Speer Gold Dot ammo. I guess that cheap gun and that cheap ammo were to blame. My Sig is one of the "Made In W. Germany" P220's which are supposed to be the best. They're often mentioned as among the best money can buy. Yet mine just had a problem with one of the most popular rounds on the market and it certainly isn't cheap ammo.

I do have a Raven P-25 that I paid $50 for brand new back in about 1983. It's never had problems with any particular ammo. Neither has my Mossberg shotgun that my brother paid $5 for back in 1962 or so. Yeah it seems like the more money you pay the more likely you are to have problems with ammo at least with my guns anyway.

I don't hear it either...I should have said that it seems like a few people online complain about ammo issues with 870's that go away with a polishing of the chamber..

I think anything man made can be made poorly.

King,
Maybe your big buck guns have problems because of tighter tollerances .... or maybe it's just that it's man made and mechanical in nature..

I have not tried allot of expensive shot gun shells and so I've never experienced problems with them in my 870, but I've never had problems shooting cheap bulk loads either and personally the cheap stuff works for me!:)

[SwampWolf]

What would be interesting to know is whether Ithaca 37 add-ons (which I would guess exist) can be used on the BPS.

Not likely. Other than the bottom ejection feature, the two have little else in common.

[41magsnub]

My 870 is my most reliable shotgun and I am most accurate with it. The only thing that bothers me is the safety placement. I am used to it and do fine, but I have so many other guns where the safety is in the front of the trigger guard it is a little weird. Doesn't bother me out hunting at all because I am able to think about it and be prepared.

My HD gun is a Winchester 120 20ga that has the safety in the front of the trigger guard where it is more natural for me.

[inSight-NEO]

I just had problems with my Sig P220 shooting Speer Gold Dot ammo

I have yet to try this ammo with my Sig P220 .45 ACP (American). I hope I dont run into the same probs you have. Either way, I have heard that these rounds use hard primers and that this may cause misfire issues, particularly on weapons with modified triggers (action). Im not saying that your gun has been modified, but the "hard primer" thing may be a contributing factor here nonetheless. Makes me want to go out and try my Sig right now...

[peetee32]

this is my new to me 870 (taking it out on saturday for the first time)

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q256/peetee32/holes/th_DSCN5972.jpg (http://s138.photobucket.com/albums/q256/peetee32/holes/?action=view&current=DSCN5972.jpg)

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q256/peetee32/holes/th_DSCN5971.jpg (http://s138.photobucket.com/albums/q256/peetee32/holes/?action=view&current=DSCN5971.jpg)

got it as a combo gun with a 20" rifled barrel and 26" vented with choke for $315 out the door. barely used. i found a trade online and got a smooth barrel for my rifled and picked up the 3shot extension and slip on limbsaver. the extension is just for show right now, as i have not dealt with the dimples yet. once its on for real i'll pick up a barrel clamp and bask in the glory of my first shotgun, and what will be my sons first shotgun (around 18yrs from now)

[wrs840]

I like my Moss 500. I will admit that 870's beat out the 500s, but when compared to the 590s...well, my opinion changes.

I've got all three of those. The 500 w/ 24" rifle-sight slug barrel is still my favorite, even with the loose/rattly pump grip...

Les

[DHart]

870's can do the job just fine but, in my evaluation, the controls ergonomics on the 500/590 are quite superior....

Here's why I love the Mossbergs and recommend them over the Remingtons:

Let's start with the ACTION RELEASE... while holding the gun ready to fire, to cycle the action all you need to do is shift your second finger slightly from where it already is and push up, without changing grip or other fingers at all, and it's done. NICE!

Next up... the THUMB SAFETY, again while holding the shotgun ready to fire, the safety can be flicked on and off readily by the thumb (and is visually very clear as to what position it is in) without changing your grip or fingers at all. VERY NICE!

Now, moving on to the LIFTER... when the gun is ready to fire, the lifter is up and out of the way, allowing topping off the mag without having to push the lifter out of the way. AWESOME!

Additionally, the 500/590 has TWO EXTRACTORS. REASSURING!

Mossberg really thought through the ergos on the controls much better than Remington did.

Of course a shooter can learn and acclimate to either gun and both the 870 and the 500/590 are excellent and worthy shotguns which will do the job admirably. That said, my recommendation is to pick whichever one feels better and more ergonomic to you, go with that, and you'll be fine. My choice is clearly Mossberg; my long-term standby 500 Persuader is a super-sweet, rock-solid, dependable 18" 6-shooter and I just added a new 590 20" 9-shot which is every bit as great, but with more capacity.

[22lr]

+1 to Dhart, you'd have to kill me to get my moss 500, and even then i dmake you pry it from my cold dead hand.:evil: To me the best feture of the 500 is the floorplate doesn't pinch your fingers when your loading a shell. I had a 870 and sold it because I could never load a shell without jamming it up, or pinching my finger, its probably just me but ill take the 500 anyday.

[chuckusaret]

I have a Mossberg 500 Cruiser 12ga 20" barrel and a Remington 870 12ga with a 18.5 barrel. Both are good guns but I prefer the Mossberg. Why, the feel, the operation, the sound when you rack it, no, I just like it better.

[Vermont]

A distinctive sounding action - home intruders seem to vanish when they hear it cyclying

I can vouch for this. After every time I cycle the action I look around for home intruders and I've never seen one. This may be because I'm usually at the range when I cycle the action, but so far it has had a 100% success rate. You can't argue with that.

[MCgunner]

I have owned 500 and 870's. It is my opinion that the 500 is quicker to use, safety and action release. This is further appreciated if a lefty by nature, or circumstance.


I'm a lefty and prefer the 500, but beyond that, the 500 is a better built gun than the express. I don't trust Remington pumps anymore, QC problems from what I can tell. The express turns to rust right in front of your eyes, too, down here in the salt marsh. I've been shooting a 500 for 20 years and it's still going strong. You might worry about fore end rattle or something, but it's a non-issue in a waterfowl gun. If I wanted to upgrade for another pump, I'd go Browning, not Remington. For me, the BPS is awesome. The BPS is MY gold standard and I consider the 500 as a po-boy's BPS. :D The BPS is perfectly ambidextrous. The Mossberg works for me, though. I'd rather have a 250 dollar gun out in the salt marsh, than a 700 dollar one, too.

[Virginian]

Ya' gotta figure lefty opinions are gonna be backwards anyway.:)
My buddy loves his BPS, but when I had one I could never warm up to having to run shells thru the magazine. If I am taking off or putting on the safety, or releasing the action, I don't need my finger on the trigger anyway, so I believe I'll keep my Wingmaster. Also, the 870 and the 1100 are so similar I can switch back and forth pretty seamlessly.

[RonE]

For a tactical or home defense pump shotgun, who cares, Remington, Mossburg, Benelli they are all about the same.
The question which shotgun is the gold standard for a pump shotgun, I would have to go with the Winchester Model 12.