Fiocchi standard loadings vs. +P?


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tiberius
September 22, 2003, 11:35 AM
How hot is Fiocchi and S&B? Can their website data be trusted? Does anyone have actual chrono data? The reason I ask is that when I take a look a ~124grain 9mm rounds I see that they are listed at speeds equaling or exceeding other brands +P loads. For Example:

Georgia Arms 124gr +P Gold Dot - 1200FPS
Cor Bon 125gr +P - 1250 fps
Fiocchi 123gr (no +P designation) - 1250fps
S&B 124gr (no +P designation) – 1181fps (360m/s)

I tend to trust GA and CB’s data because they are smaller companies that are specifically marketing these loads for defensive purposes.

What’s your opinion or experience? FYI, I shoot a lot of S&B and Fiocchi since it seems to be very high quality stuff and Cheaper Than Dirt always has it pretty cheap. I recently picked up a case of Fiocchi 9mm 123gr fmj and it does seem to shoot pretty strong, but I have no means to measure it.

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bountyhunter
September 22, 2003, 01:44 PM
All I know is the range I went to always pushed Fiocchi for their rentals because they charged more for it and the hotter ammo would cycle the range beaters that were all loaded up with crud. I don't shoot it but the word is it's always hotter than average.

RWK
September 22, 2003, 03:09 PM
I have used a LOT of Fiocchi .45 ACP 230 grain FMJ. Good stuff -- same decent quality and good price class as S&B, Winchester USA/white box, Federal American Eagle. It was a “hot” standard pressure loading, but did not achieve +P performance.

New_comer
September 22, 2003, 09:16 PM
Cartridge____ Bullet ____Wt___Boxes __Velocity m/s _ Energy j Trajectory Testbarrel
_________ _________ ________________M V25 V50___ M E25 E50 ____AT25 AT50


9 LUGER COMBAT FMJTC 123 50-1000 390 365 340 606 530 460 -20 -85 200
9 LUGER LL VER FMC 115 50-1000 405 380 355 610 537 469 -20 -80 200
9 LUGER LL FMC 115 50-1000 405 380 355 610 537 469 -20 -80 200
9 LUGER SUBSONIC FMJ 158 50-1000 300 290 275 460 430 387 -35 -145 200
9 LUGER FMJ 123 50-1000 385 360 335 590 516 447 -20 -85 200
9 LUGER LL VER FMC 123 50-1000 385 360 335 590 516 447 -20 -85 200
9 LUGER FMJHP 115 50-1000 410 385 360 626 552 482 -20 -80 200
9 LUGER FMJHP 147 50-1000 320 295 275 487 414 360 -30 -135 200
9 LUGER FMJ 115 50-1000 405 380 355 610 537 469 -20 -80 200
9 LUGER G. CHECK LL LRN 123 50-1000 380 355 335 578 504 451 -20 -95 200

This is HARD! :D

Better yet, look at the Italian homepage http://www.fiocchigfl.com/english/Prodotti/Fuce.htm


They're loaded quite hot, NATO-spec IIRC. The FMJ-HP at 115 and 147 gr are my primary defense cartridges as they're very affordable. ;)

Old Fuff
September 22, 2003, 09:27 PM
In general the Europeans load standard loads hotter then we do. They don't have to worry about some bottom-feeding lawyer sueing them if their client's junker blows up. They also don't seem as interest in putting the biggest and most powerfully loaded cartridge in the smallest possible pistol as we do.

JohnKSa
September 22, 2003, 10:06 PM
Fiocchi is good stuff. I've found it to be consistently very accurate in my guns.

It does seem to be loaded quite a bit hotter than the standard pressure U.S. stuff.

C.R.Sam
September 23, 2003, 01:25 AM
May or may not have any bearing here but...

Remember, +P is a designater indicating PEAK pressure between 100percent and 110 percent of SAAMI specs for a given cartridge.
NO direct bearing on performance.

Sam

Nightcrawler
September 23, 2003, 03:09 AM
Anybody chronographed Fiocci .45ACP 230 grain FMJ? I ask because I have five hundred rounds of the stuff at home and am hoping that it's hotter than some of the American stuff you get for cheap, like Winchester White Box, which I believe falls out of the barrel at less than 800 feet per second...

MORE POWER!

WonderNine
September 23, 2003, 05:46 AM
Now somebody just tell me how to convert joules into foot/pounds. Then all I'll have to do is convert millimeters into inches to find out what their energy/velocity figures mean in Americanese.

WonderNine
September 23, 2003, 05:53 AM
Never mind, I figured it out....

So it looks like Fiocchi's hottest .357 load, the 125gr. SJSP is about 870ft/lbs out of a 5 inch barrel. Hmm....toasty.

I don't think that's safe to shoot out of a Smith & Wesson model 19 or any K frame....

A Ruger Blackhawk? No problemo.

Nightcrawler
September 23, 2003, 06:52 AM
According to Cheaper than Dirt's website, Fiocci's .45ACP ammo chronos at only 875 feet per second. Better than most, but I'd prefer 900 feet per second and over.

tiberius
September 23, 2003, 07:04 PM
Too bad no one has any real data on it, but I agree that it seems a bit hot. Hope it doesn't wear out my CZ :)


By the way, what is NATO spec 9mm? I know its 124gr FMJ, but at what speed?

WonderNine
September 23, 2003, 10:05 PM
By the way, what is NATO spec 9mm? I know its 124gr FMJ, but at what speed?

Supposedly about 1250 fps out of a 5" barrel.

Winchester's NATO load is listed at 1185 fps & 387 ft/lbs. out of a 4" barrel in their Law Enforcement ammo catalog. I assume I get about 1230 fps or so out of my Browning Hi-Power. I have a pre-MKII model so the barrel is 4.65" as opposed to the 4.75" the MKIII's seem to be.

I recently bought a chronograph, so I'll be testing some loads soon, maybe tomorrow.

WonderNine
September 23, 2003, 10:14 PM
Too bad no one has any real data on it, but I agree that it seems a bit hot. Hope it doesn't wear out my CZ


Not likely.

I just did the conversions and according to the numbers listed on the website the Fiocchi 230gr. FMJ load is at 371 ft/lbs. out of a 5" barrel. Hardly a screamer for a .45.

*edit* Just did some more conversions, checked it twice and that comes out to about 853 fps. :uhoh:

WonderNine
September 28, 2003, 10:47 PM
Did some chronoing today. Averaged about 1200fps out of the Browning Hi-Power and about 1220fps out of the Beretta 92 with Winchester Law Enforcement 124gr. NATO.

A little lower than I was expecting but ok. I wanted to chrono a round of 124gr. Hirtinberger, but just couldn't make myself shoot even a round of it out of those two nice guns.

One thing I noticed was the variation from shot to shot was very low. The lowest numbers being about 1185 and the highest being about 1220 out of the Hi-Power.

Rob96
September 29, 2003, 05:20 AM
You also have to remember that +p is a SAAMI designation. In Europe they go by something different. Also, if I remember correctly, the original 9mm load was a 124gr bullet at something like 1250fps.

Nightcrawler
September 29, 2003, 05:25 AM
the original 9mm load was a 124gr bullet at something like 1250fps.

I'd be suprised. I mean, if that were the case, then it'd be safe to load modern +P ammo in an circa-1900 Mauser or Luger pistol.

You might be right, though.

Rob96
September 29, 2003, 05:39 AM
Don't quote me on it. But I seem to remember reading that.

tiberius
September 29, 2003, 08:18 AM
re. NATO spec 9mm

According to TM 43-0001-27 "Ammunition Data Sheets" US Military publication, The M882 US 9MM Ball ammo is spec'd at:


Projectile weight: 112gr
Velocity: 1263 FPS 15' from Muzzle
Max pressure at case mouth: 36240 psi (note: NOT cup)

Weight and velocity indicate that this is not a very hot round.

It is specifed as for use in the M9, so I assume this is the velocity from the Beretta's barrel.

The manual can be found here: http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/tm43-0001-27.pdf

PCRCCW
September 29, 2003, 10:34 AM
Ok...the skinny on Fiocchi ammo. Its Italian so of course its made to NATO spec...but its also made in the states.

So the stuff is made in the USA and Italy..the stuff made in the USA is not labeled NATO or +P. I highly suspect that the Italian stuff is actual NATO spec...the stuff made here is not.

Be aware the Italian made stuff is labeled "Made for the USA"...not made in the USA........

Shoot well.

tiberius
September 29, 2003, 10:38 AM
My current batch I just bought from CTD says "USA" in an oval on the front of the box, but is clearly written "MADE IN ITALY" on the back.

sm
September 29, 2003, 11:05 AM
I like Fiocchi ammo, have used quite a bit over the years, including shotshells and some specialty loadings.

Homepage: http://www.fiocchiusa.com/index.htm

http://www.fiocchiusa.com/faq.asp
Where are Fiocchi products made?

"We have a manufacturing plant in Ozark, Missouri, where we load both shotshell and centerfire ammunition. We also import centerfire ammunition, reloading components, match grade rimfire ammunition and specialty/obsolete loads from our parent company in Italy. All products are loaded to either C.I.P. or SAAMI specifications."



Parent Company:
http://www.fiocchigfl.it/english/

jsalcedo
September 29, 2003, 11:02 PM
The fiocchi .45 was hotter tham PMC which surprised me.

I just can't find it on a regular basis .

WonderNine
September 30, 2003, 03:26 AM
The fiocchi .45 was hotter tham PMC which surprised me.

Did you chrono any? Are you sure about that?

The data here (http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm) claims that the PMC 230gr. is loaded to 853 fps which is the exact same number I came up with for the Fiocchi 230gr. load converting the metric specifications on their Italian website to feet per second.

Sounds like the same load to me.

jsalcedo
September 30, 2003, 08:10 AM
Did you chrono any? Are you sure about that?

I had 230 hardball of PMC and Fiocchi (purple box) side by side and was firing it out of my Chuck Daly Empire EMS.


The Fiocchi kicked about 20% harder than the PMC, had a noticeably increased muzzle blast and was kicking cases about half again further.

The only thing I can think of is I bought the Fiocchi from an Ammo guy who had about one box of every type of .45 ammo and all the boxes looked old.

Tropical Z
September 30, 2003, 10:20 PM
I personally love S&B and get it when i can as it always feels nice when you pull the trigger.Ive used Fiocchis .357mag in my Rossi 972 and Windicator as well as a friends 686 and all i can ever say is WOW! when you touch off a round.That makes me believe their claims for 357mag.:cool:

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