[lyuv]

Hi all,

I want to start shooting an old 16ga pinfire damascus shotgun. To be on the safe side, I think of proof shooting it first.

What would you suggest as an apropriate proof load? Is there a formula to calculate it from the maximum service load?

Thanks,

[PTK]

Don't shoot it. Unless you use REALLY light loads, please don't shoot it - get it relined.

[mykeal]

PTK is right. Damascus barrels are notoriously poor at aging. At the least it must be very carefully inspected by an expert; relining is a more reasonable thing to do.

[Macmac]

I agree... Hammer welding metal and time don't always last forever.. Over time these metals move around.

Ever find a silver item turning green?

If so it is showing copper in the silver migrating to the surface.

Sulfer speeds that up, and sulfer is in powder.. Either line it or don't use it...

It can be porus and you might not see it even after an inspection.

If you want to see in a crude way yourself with no harm to the metal all you need to do is seal the the pin fire device really well, and fill the bores with plain keroscene...

Let that sit for a week, and see then if you find leaks..

[buttrap]

You just never can tell with the things. The top quality ones hold up pretty well but most where of a much lower quality.Another practice at the time was also to take fluid steel barrels and put a fake damask finish on the things.

[Hellgate]

I believe the back of a Dixie Gun Works catalog gives proof loads. You just better be prepared to blow the gun up safely.

[lyuv]

Thanks all for your concern.
I do know of the potential problems with aging damascus. But I also know of many such guns that where proved safe and are used regularly.

Where I live there are no competent gunsmiths, nor can I ship it. and even if I could have it inspected propperly, I wouldnt trust it, for all the possible hidden faults (and for liking my limbs so much...).

So I assume the best and only way to be absolutly sure is to proof shoot it, at the risk of blowing up a valuable piece. Please correct me if I"m wrong.

I cant get a dixie catalog. I"ll appreciate if someone could get the proof load data from there (of from any other source).

Thanks,

[mykeal]

The advice you've gotten from the forum is to NOT shoot the gun. It's not safe. Period. I won't be party to an intentionally unsafe practice, and I would hope others on the forum would agree.

A proof load test is badly named. It is simply evidence, not proof, that the test article is sound. On old articles a proof test may in fact do significant undetected damage and weaken the article enough so that a normally safe load is now dangerous. This is especially true on damascus steel barrels.

Hang the gun up.

[Jim Watson]

Belgian proof law of 1853 called for three proof tests of a Lefaucheux pattern pinfire:
First proof, rough barrels before joining: powder 2/3 the weight of a bore diameter ball. For a 16 gauge, that is 2/3 of an ounce, or 18 grams powder. I assume the projectile stayed the same as in 1840, a ball not smaller than 0.6mm less than bore diameter.
Second proof, rough barrels after joining: 2/3 the first test, 13 grams powder.
Definitive proof of finished gun: same, 13 grams.

The definitive proof is approximately a triple charge. It is my opinion that those loads would destroy a period piece or as mykeal says, weaken it rather than proof it.

You can inquire at
http://www.doublegunshop.com/
for advice from braver souls than me.

[fineredmist]

Are you married ?

If so, how does your widow look in black?

Please don't tempt fate with this dangerous attempt.

[Macmac]

Geeze!!!! Todays powder ain't yesterdays powder...

Why can't you buy a Dixie Catalog for the 5 or 10 bucks they cost?

Why can't you try the keroscene test first? What if you do and the barrels leak like sieves?

No Proof was done in a wooden stock, it was a bench test.

Why chance getting hurt and wrecking the gun?

And i can't over express Mykeals' concerns of another so called Proof just means the gun with stodd it if it does, and then you still have no idea if it will shoot a more normal load for beans.

Is it you live on a deserted island, and this piece drifted on the beach or what?

This a nutty plan.

Where did you get any pinfire brass anyway? If it is really old is it any good at all? Old brass that shot real black powder gets brittle, and can be erroded inside.

What other black powder guns have you OWNED, and for how long, and about how many times have you fired them?

If this is your first one, you have no bee's wax proofing it. I am sorry and i don't mean to a Royal Pain in yer backside, but somebody has to tell it straight..

Pretty much you go by what works or you shouldn't use the gun ever.

[Oldnamvet]

I don't think he is taking your advice and would bet that his post count stays at "2". He didn't want to hear what he heard so he is going to go ahead anyway. Wanna bet? You can lead a horse to water, but ....................

[Macmac]

Oldnamvet , yeah another name for a pipe bomb huh?

[scrat]

wow i just read this thread. i hope he doesnt fire it. sounds like a nice mantle piece but other than that i wouldnt touch it. At least not for shooting.

[4v50 Gary]

Magnaflux it first.

[Sunray]

"...want to start shooting an old 16ga pinfire damascus shotgun..." Forget it. Damascus barrels are unsafe with any ammo and you won't be able to find pinfire ammo anyway. Pinfire ammo is collector grade stuff.

[Macmac]

Oldnamvet , has it.. The guy flew the coop, probably because we don't agree with him....

We are flogging a dead horse..

[Jim Watson]

You flogged ol' lyuv pretty hard, all right. Ran him right off the so-called high road.
I suspect, from his writing style, that English is not his first language, although is is better than average for the Internet. He probably lives somewhere that a pinfire is all that his rulers will allow him to tinker with.

It IS possible to load pinfires. A deluxe kit is shown at:
http://hlebooks.com/pinfire/cal16-01.htm
Everything is of high quality, and very expensive, $36 a pop.
The 17th edition of the Handloader's Digest describes a cheap approach, based on work by Geoffrey Boothroyd, "Armorer to 007."
The late Roger Barlow did some work with them. In his Gun Digest article where he tested shotguns with 1, 2, 3, and 4 barrels, I believe he used a pinfire double to make the most common design more interesting.

And there are Damascus barrels being shot, a couple of our trapshooters here go an occasional round with one of the old guns. One even shoots smokeless, after extensive research.

I guess people have different ideas of acceptable risk. The level seems lower on the Internet than it used to be when all we had to go on was print, word of mouth, and experiment.

[mykeal]

Actually, he hasn't come back because we gave him what he wanted; see posts #6 & #9.

And as far as English as a second language, his grammar and spelling were about average for an internet forum. Could very well be 10th generation American with a high school diploma, or perhaps even a bachelor's degree.

[Macmac]

I made a spelling error here on another thread, in another room last night.

Spelling isn't my little special skill.

Steel never cared whether or not I could spell, so long as I could move the steel the way it needed to be moved to be usefull.

I have always been more at home in the Black Powder area here partly due to the more relaxed feel of this room.

I can and do start fire with a bow drill, and have other woodland skills, where spelling won't make one bit of difference.

So I wonder if I should leave here because I had no college education, and can't create a proper sentence.

The school of hard knocks doesn't offer spelling, and being dyslexic makes it even harder.

What say Yee?

[Jim Watson]

I have no problem with YOUR spelling, Mac. You do better than the phone texting generation which knows nothing of capitalization or punctuation and abbreviates EVERYTHING.

Or lyuv's. Just that I think his word usage seems like school English, not American English. Maybe not. But if he can't get a Dixie catalog, he pretty much has to be a LONG way away.

[mykeal]

I made an observation about the OP's grammar and spelling, to the effect that it was, in my opinion, average American. As opposed to Jim's, which was ESL. I cannot, for the life of me, fathom how in world that could be interpreted as a complaint against anyone's spelling skills.

Macmac, I apologize, but I know not why.

[JImbothefiveth]

Don't proof-fire it. It is probably quite valuable, and pinfire ammunition may not even be made anymore. Plus, even if it did withstand the proofing, it might still fail at some later point, and the proofing could just accellerate the wear.


http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/manufacturers_id/7/products_id/55036
For less than 140 dollars, you can have a very well made 16 gauge shotgun. You can get one of these in 12 gauge for less than $130

[fireman 9731]

well.... I guess if he really, really wants to shoot it....:banghead:

get the lightest load you can find... take the gun to a very safe place, with nobody or anything around for a few miles, sturdily set the gun up, load it, tie a long string(a spool of fishing line would work well) to the trigger and walk until you run out of string. Then find something good to hide behind. then give the string a good tug. :p

[Macmac]

mykeal , You need not apologize to me for anything. It was elsewhere, by another.

I don't go outside this room very often, but as of late I have. It seems other offences can be more easily had.

I was just wondering in a general way, if my difficulty in spelling, grammar and typo, of which i am King, that others were wishing to say, and hence have me leave..

mykeal, most of the time I agree with you. You owe me nothing. Thanks for the replie(s).. mac

[Jefferson Herb]

I decided to contact the person in question,and He does in fact live in a third world country.The Guy makes his own powder and claimes to have been at it for some time,but new to shotgun.
For those of you who question the use of twist barrel arms,there is a fine article by V.M.Starr,aka Mr Shotgun;who spent his life using muzzle loaders and making those using modern arms look bad.
One comment Mr Starr made is English barrels are soldered,while belgen are brazed.If he has brazed barrels and uses black ....